To those thinking 30p can't handle motion, try using 1/40th shutter. It's fluid, natural without the soap opera effect.

People are increasingly watching content on mobile... the set-top box in the living room is on life support.

The iPod generation wants to CARRY their content, not watch it in stunning quality.

DVD Audio never caught on because MP3s meant you could carry your entire catalog of music on something SMALLER than a deck of playing cards...

Video streaming is the next logical step.

Not saying I LIKE that... just saying it is a reality that is working AGAINST us ever seeing 8kp240 4:4:4 at 12 bits on-demand in stunning quality...

Mobile streaming is currently near-impossible in HD due to ridiculously low bandwidth caps. (at least in Canada)

This is the same argument with Rolling Shutters moving from CCDs to CMOS.

To those thinking 30p can't handle motion, try using 1/40th shutter. It's fluid, natural without the soap opera effect.

What ever the shutter speed the slow frame rates all have the same problems with panning the camera. Judder in the backgrounds or in the subject if moving fast and zoomed in too close. Only higher frame rates can resolve these issues. If the camera is stationary then they capture motion acceptably.

Ron Evans

The math would be in the neighbourhood of 8x the potential bandwidth (before considering increased efficiencies due to duplicate pixels or suppressible detail and whatever is gained by h.265) in a jump from a maximum of 1080P30 to UHD/4kP60...
That is only at all true at the acquisition stage, even then it's far from all the story. (Even in an I-frame only system you can apply higher compression ratios to higher resolution frames.)

Move to long-GOP (which transmission etc will almost certainly be) and it's nowhere near the case for framerates. Comparing (say) 30p to 60p, the idea is to keep the same time interval between I-frames (say, every 1/2 second) and just double the number of difference frames. Since the bulk of the datarate is in the I-frames, and there's less difference between frames 1/60sec apart than 1/30, then 60p transmission needn't involve a much higher datarate than 30p. Similar story for 120p - for transmission.

It would be pointless to formulate a 4K transmission standard that is limited to 30p - the standard should allow for up to 120p. (But at least 60p.)

And just because that's what the standard says, doesn't mean that is what everything has to be. As example, if you have a 720p/50 standard, it doesn't preclude 25p transmissions of cinema films etc. A 4K120p standard would still allow for lower framerate transmissions - 30, 60p or whatever.

People are increasingly watching content on mobile... the set-top box in the living room is on life support.

The iPod generation wants to CARRY their content, not watch it in stunning quality.


They want to carry their content AND watch it in stunning quality haha

Codecs will shape everything. RED is using their codec to stream 4k @ under 2.5MB/s to their REDRAY but obviously they won't be the ones to change that on the broadcast end. The other concern is how hardcore of a compression are they using for H265. It will require a lot of power to just unpack and that could make streaming to some modern devices in 4k very difficult or ridiculously resource consuming.

But again, not like any tech company is complaining, another thing to market, and we will be the ones feeding the frenzy.

To those thinking 30p can't handle motion, try using 1/40th shutter. It's fluid, natural without the soap opera effect.

Tom, what is the magic formula behind it? I'm asking out of curiosity, but also because I'd like to try adapt it to my 25p video...

Cheers

Piotr

Hi Piotr,
The idea is to strike the right balance between staccato like motion and smearing. That balance should attempt to smooth stuttery, strobing frames and replace them with natural motion that doesn't go too far toward smearing or ghost trails. It's just an artistic preference, try it! As you know, faster shutter sharpens frames, but a certain amount of blur during motion or panning looks natural, cinematic. Too slow with the shutter speed blurs too much, causing ghosting trails or smear. 1/40th is just right, works for handheld as well as tripod.

Fair enough; so it's a matter of experimentation rather than a strict formula to derive the best shutter speed for smear-strobe balance.

Considering there is a limited set of shutter speeds, I guess one should look for similar results with 25p at 1/60th, right? Of course not in 60 Hz countries...

Not speaking for all cameras but Sony has ECS mode (extended clear scan) on the EX1, PMW350 and others, that allows you to set a shutter frequency inbetween the normal choices of 1/24, 1/30, 1/60th etc.

Took delivery on Friday…shot full-tilt 4k 60p in my sunny back yard and was a little underwhelmed. Not sure why but even at 0 gain, the image was rather noisy. Did a lecture video (1080 30p) indoors with the usual terrible light and needed +18 gain. Shot some interviews at 1080 30p with lighting and 0 gain and then tested my green screen studio which I could achieve proper levels with 0 gain and 180 deg shutter.
None of these were critical projects and I shot b-cam with my 1Dx which rules in low light so it was my unofficial "real world" test of the camera. Having done similar shoots the week before with my XF300 I must say I'm not impressed. I was expecting a significant improvement in IQ with good lighting but knew the low light would be the weak point. Not sure at this point…

Anyhow, other things I miss from the Canon…WFM, face-detect AF, and an LCD that can flip to right or left side, ability to choose Kelvin numbers for WB.

Some things I really like about the Z100, zoom controls are super smooth and variable top rocker is nice. On-off switch (compared to the Canon slider), Lens variable aperture with zoom not as extreme as Canon, no lens cap to lose, 3 lens rings, much better color rendering than the XF.

With the beast of a codec and the 4K sensor it sure seemed like a good idea on paper…gonna give it a little more time. I'm hoping I am screwing something up somewhere! And just to clarify my reason for wanting 4K…I am generally a 1-man-band. Shooting at 4K then "pan and scan" in post would be very useful for the type of work I do. I also do a ton of green screen work and the added resolution should result in cleaner keys…the XF was quite amazing…just looking for the next level. We'll see!

The codec is awesome, but the sensor is the same as in the Xperia Z1, a cell phone. There is guaranteed to be noise at 0db no matter what with a cell phone sensor.

Slap the RX100's sensor in a 1'' adapted lens in an ENG form and that's actually a winner. The pro version of the recently announced AX100 will surely be better than the Z100 by a longshot.

I'm also waiting for the Sony FDR-AX100/B with a one inch sensor. I also own the Canon 1DX and was hoping their most recent firmware change would include the ability to shoot small (limited time because of overheating) 4K clips at 24fps. Oh well. I'll have to use my Sony FS700 for that.

The pro version of the recently announced AX100 will surely be better than the Z100 by a longshot.

... and by several thousand $$$, too :)

Seriously though, if Sony is indeed releasing a new, pro 4K model soon, it needs to have the Z100 codec, media and lens but a larger sensor. Whether it should be the still photography derived one (as in the AX100) is an open question; it probably won't be the S35 (this department is already populated quite densely by other Sony models), so it might be a '1 inch-type' as they put it, but it better have 16x9 aspect and fewer pixels, all used for 4K and - by being larger - offering yet greater S/N and sensitivity...

I know, I know - this would mean releasing an all new sensor, which would inevitably mean higher price. But I guess that within the 4k realm there is a place for this kind of sensor - smaller than S35 for larger DOF, but larger than Z100/A1 and populated by fewer/larger pixels for better sensitivity.

Such a camera - if only the price is held lower than say the FS700+any 4k recording solution available today - would certainly be my favorite toy for the retirement days (sigh :().

I believe the sensor is the same as in my HX30V. I do not see noise on my FDR-AX1 compared to my NX5U which has to be my reference or for that matter to my CX700 or NX30U. Sony have various sensors at roughly this size so may not all be exactly the same. For instance the new AS100V is also this size but the old AS30 is also roughly the same size but with slightly different pixel counts.

How did you view the output ? Downscaling in software using Laczos 3 produces a better picture than internal HD output from the HDMI. At least that is what I have found for my FDR-AX1. The file can take a lot more post corrections too than AVCHD and retain its resolution. My reason for the FDR-AX1 was also to crop and pan. Crops I have done in the theatre are as good as the image from the CX700 or NX30 with similar high gains so I too wish it was more light sensitive but so far it does work for me. For really dark situations it is not as clean as the CX700.

I would like 60P so the AX100 may not fit the bill . Will see when the review appear.

I viewed footage through my editing rig which is Premiere CC on a Mac Pro with Quadro 4000 to a Dell 27" IPS display. I do photography editing on this setup too and it shows every flaw which is why the 1Dx and 5D mk3 are my workhorses…super clean! The XF300 was not perfect but showed significantly less noise.

Will report today's findings as I want to try a couple more things.

#SonyPro 4K Road Trip: Footage from the PXW-Z100 camera by Chuck Fishbein

Sony 4K Road Trip - YouTube

Well, I ended up sending the camera back. In my studio which has a green screen cyc wall, I just could not get a clean, easy to key video from it. This was under proper lighting that has worked on many of my cameras as well as various client's cameras for the past three years. Tried just about every iteration of setting on the camera and none worked for what I need. Just too noisy even at 0db. Bummed but moving on… 4K will have to wait.

Well, I ended up sending the camera back. In my studio which has a green screen cyc wall, I just could not get a clean, easy to key video from it. This was under proper lighting that has worked on many of my cameras as well as various client's cameras for the past three years. Tried just about every iteration of setting on the camera and none worked for what I need. Just too noisy even at 0db. Bummed but moving on… 4K will have to wait.

I personally am waiting for the camera that's going to be released after the AX100 and it's pro variant. If Sony adopts MFT or updates their APS-C video line, (NEX-EAxx line) that's going to be where a balance of sensor size and price could hit the sweet spot. For those that can't afford S35 and RAW recording, it could be the next best thing.

This might have been discussed already as I may have overlooked this in this massive thread ... but upon reading the "Overview" section of this camera on the Sony website, it states:

"With current NLEs, spanned clips cannot be combined. Depending on NLE, audio may be discontinuous at the breaks."

Not having experience myself with recording to a two card setup, is this normal?

And if so, is it just an adjustment (to re-connect the footage seamlessly together again) that is done manually in the NLE?

AC

Well, I ended up sending the camera back. In my studio which has a green screen cyc wall, I just could not get a clean, easy to key video from it. This was under proper lighting that has worked on many of my cameras as well as various client's cameras for the past three years. Tried just about every iteration of setting on the camera and none worked for what I need. Just too noisy even at 0db. Bummed but moving on… 4K will have to wait.

Robert, does this include your DSLR's regarding your "many cameras"?

This might have been discussed already as I may have overlooked this in this massive thread ... but upon reading the "Overview" section of this camera on the Sony website, it states:

"With current NLEs, spanned clips cannot be combined. Depending on NLE, audio may be discontinuous at the breaks."

Not having experience myself with recording to a two card setup, is this normal?

And if so, is it just an adjustment (to re-connect the footage seamlessly together again) that is done manually in the NLE?

AC

With my AVCHD cameras and the FDR-AX1 I always use the Sony transfer software not NLE. This brings the files across without problems and for AVCHD will combine into a single file renamed by date and time . I was disappointed with the transfer of XAVC-S from my FDR-AX1 in that the files still stay named C0001 etc and just get put in folders of the correct date taken. Clips spanning cards are not joined either, unlike AVCHD, but do butt together with no loss of video or audio on the timeline. I hope that in future updates this will be changed back to renaming the files like AVCHD . I think these 4K cameras have been rushed to market and should be viewed as pre-release really until their firmware update makes all the features work. In good light the FDR-AX1 gives, for me, a lovely image compared to my other cameras. I too wish its low light was better but for the few shoots I have done it has worked as I expected as I had no illusions as to its performance from the specs.

Something has to give to shoot 4K with a 20x zoom etc and the competing products with this spec cost many times more dollars so better be a superior performance !!! Sony are now giving some choices. FDR-AX100 ( XAVC-S 8bit at 30P 12x zoom ), FDR-AX1 ( XAVC-S 8 bit 60P 20x zoom ), PXW-Z100 ( XAVC 10bit 20x zoom ), FS700R + ( your choice...), F5/F55 ( your choice) and I expect even more choices. It would be nice but unlikely to get a $2000 camera to compete successfully with one that cost over $10,000. Or for $5000 against something that costs more for the body before one buys any lenses !!!



Ron Evans

Many thanks for that info. Ron!!

This cam seems awesome (spec wise).

Robert, does this include your DSLR's regarding your "many cameras"?

I have shot with my 1Dx, 5Dmk3 and a 5D mk2 and 7D as b-cams on the green screen with no issues. Not for broadcast use though…web delivery. The XF300 worked great for broadcast.
BTW, picked up a C100 with Ninja 2…whole different world of clean, crisp video…and with bokeh if I want it!

WOW ... that's quite disappointing to hear that cams with 4:2:0 can pull a cleaner image for keying (green screen) than this cam that is 4:2:2.

Thanks for the info. Robert!!

WOW ... that's quite disappointing to hear that cams with 4:2:0 can pull a cleaner image for keying (green screen) than this cam that is 4:2:2.

Thanks for the info. Robert!!

Why would you think that? Those DSLR's have sensors more than 5 times larger in area so I would be very disappointed if they did not out perform a sensor less the 1/2" and likely with lenses that may cost a lot more than the whole PXW-Z100 if you want anything close to 20x !!! I am not defending these Sony's but pointing out that one needs to compare apples to apples. B&H prices are $5499 for PXW-Z100, a Canon EOS 1DX is $6799 just for the body no lens and if one wants 4K one needs to go to the C version at $11999 still no lens and needs external recorder too. C500 $20K and still needs lenses and external recorders as the internal recorder is only 50Mbps !!! If you want high performance then these ( FDR-AX1 and PXW-Z100) may not be the best choices but they do work within their useful ranges very well in my limited experience and at prices less than a good lens for a high end camera !!! If you do not need 4K then that is a totally different discussion and these cameras will be the wrong ones to use for a comparison.

Ron Evans

4:2:2 10bit vs. 4:2:0 8bit ... that's why "I would think that".

Yes, I realize there are a variety of other factors ... than just Color Sampling alone ... that affects the outcome of an image BUT ...

...since I have not utilized or even seen this camera in person, I am only going by the camera's specs (4:2:2 / 10bit, Cinema 4K) which I thought would be able to pull a clean key without a problem ... hence my inquiry to Robert about his findings.

4:2:2 10bit vs. 4:2:0 8bit ... that's why "I would think that".

Yes, I realize there are a variety of other factors ... than just Color Sampling alone ... that affects the outcome of an image BUT ...

...since I have not utilized or even seen this camera in person, I am only going by the camera's specs (4:2:2 / 10bit, Cinema 4K) which I thought would be able to pull a clean key without a problem ... hence my inquiry to Robert about his findings.

Yes I understand. We may see a better result from the 1" sensor of the FDR-AX100 if we get a more Pro version.

Ron Evans

Maybe someone can help me with this, I don't usually use the thumbnail screen to review clips. The camera is happy to play back on the lcd clips shot at 60p but will not play back clips shot at 30p. The 30p clips have a little warning icon on them that looks a bit like a Do Not Enter symbol. A red circle with a line through it. Why might this be?

Maybe someone can help me with this, I don't usually use the thumbnail screen to review clips. The camera is happy to play back on the lcd clips shot at 60p but will not play back clips shot at 30p. The 30p clips have a little warning icon on them that looks a bit like a Do Not Enter symbol. A red circle with a line through it. Why might this be?

Some cameras will not playback clips shot in a different frame rate to the currently set one. It may be that the Z100 does this. Try setting it to 30p mode.

Bingo. Thanks Michael! That was driving me crazy.

4:2:2 10bit vs. 4:2:0 8bit ... that's why "I would think that".

Yes, I realize there are a variety of other factors ... than just Color Sampling alone ... that affects the outcome of an image BUT ...

...since I have not utilized or even seen this camera in person, I am only going by the camera's specs (4:2:2 / 10bit, Cinema 4K) which I thought would be able to pull a clean key without a problem ... hence my inquiry to Robert about his findings.

Well, this just shows how wrong I was about reading specs alone to choose a camera! On paper the Z100 should have been a monster. I mean why would they put such a high-performance codec with 4:2:2 10 bit to the super high speed media, and put SDI and TC connectors and a G-lens?? That all says "Pro Camera" to me. The small sensor was the one area I didn't really pay attention to! Lesson learned!

And to add a bit to my earlier statement, the DSLR's really only have one issue when pulling a key. The aliasing shows up. So you get jagged edges on anything with an smooth line or curve. Now, shrinking it from 1080p to 720p helps but it's still not as nice as the true video cameras. BTW, the C100/Ninja 2 using the 220mbps Pro Res HQ off the Ninja 2 is stunningly good.

I saw this camera yesterday along with NX3.

Z100 has really good LCD, with magnification I can focus in 4K (camera was output to 4K monitor for control). The lens of Z100 is visibly better (sharper) than lens of NX3 (I hope that I did the change of Z100 mode from 4K to HD .-) ), also the change from focus to defocus is smoother (focus ring works better). The lens has a little CA on wide angle, but nothing big. The gain is usable to +12dB, at +15db is noise in 4K more visible, this mean that in dark areas you can't use the whole 20x zoom, picture is too dark. Also HD mode is nice (4K is a little wider direct from the chip). You can shot in 4K and at the same time see the HDMI output in HD on monitor.

Z100 is a very good camera with the exception of a lower sensitivity, with better lens than NX3. I didn't look for some NR in menu, so this can help with noise if this exist.

Updated link!!!!! Sorry!!!!!!

Sony PXW-Z100 (http://www.omegabroadcast.com/Sony-PXW-Z100-p/sny-pxwz100-90-4326.htm)


Alister Chapman took the PXW-Z100 for a spin while in town for our workshop. The card had 25GB of footage but I deleted some of the files and left eight clips. I zipped it up and put it on media fire for you to download and try out in your own system. The video is of downtown Austin. Last weekend was winter. Yes. Winter only lasts one weekend here. This is it. Go to this page and scroll down. Download time depends on how fast your connection is. This file is 2.5GB.

Omega - Sales - PXW-Z100 (http://omegabroadcast.com/fmp/omega-detail.php?-manuRecID=firstpage&-recid=4326)

I posted this in a different thread but saw there was a lot of conversation here too.

rumors ..*g*.. free of charge firmware upgrade rund up 30th October

The version 3 will include:
XAVC Long GOP* 4K(QFHD)/HD recording capability with max.150 Mbps on XQD media card
TC output from HDMI

*XAVC-L (long GOP) is a codec with MXF file wrapper, in QFHD is 4:2:0 with 8bit, in HD is 4:2:2 with 10bit.

The next firmware version should include AVCHD recording and will be available in January 2015.
The Direct Copy function sony plan to update in first half of 2015.

http://666kb.com/i/csnz7ikj1elr6godi.jpg

Can you please put that image on Imgur? I don't trust a site with a URL like that.

Here's the image from the link.

I have a FDR-AX1 the consumer version of the PXW-Z100. The physical differences are mainly, in typical Sony fashion, SDi and timecode interfaces. The PXW-Z100 is 422 10bit XAVC and the FDR-AX1 420 8 bit XAVC-S. When they came out there were. and still are things that do not work and were promised in a summer 2014 firmware update. There are USB and SD card slots that do not work, data code button that does nothing etc. In this promised update there was also to be included AVCHD and for the PXW-Z100 Long GOP. In this release it looks like they will give the Z100 the long GOP wrapped in MXF that is already in the FDR-AX1 as mp4 !!! As a long time Sony owner I am suspicious that the firmware is the same for both these camcorders just a matter of what is enabled for marketing !!! Just like the differences between the NX5U and the HDR-AX2000. The HD codec is also in the X70, X160 and X180. No mention of any of the interfaces that do not work !! I think the team may have been re assigned to get the X160/180 and the X70 out the door.

Ron Evans

Still puzzled as to the 4:2:0 for Long-GOP in 4K. This essentially makes it XAVC-S. But I guess you get more audio flexibility in the real XAVC format rather than XAVC-S.

Are the XAVC Long-GOP modes on the F55 also 4:2:0? If not, that's a hardware limitation.

But I guess you get more audio flexibility in the real XAVC format rather than XAVC-S..

I think audio is the same for either format just whether it is mp4 or mxf wrapper.

Ron Evans

I believe XAVC-S MP4 is locked to 2 channel 16bit and XAVC MXF is up to 8 channels 24bit audio, unless I'm wrong.

In the case of the present firmware both the Z100 and the FDR-AX1 are stereo. However the manual for my AX1 has a figure which shows the audio as 4 channel XAVC-S !!!! Page 38 in my AX1 user manual also shows LPCM 4 ch 24bit XAVC-S. It isn't of course, now my AX1 is 2 channel 48k 16 bit. What the real limits are is unclear to me and which firmware. At first I too thought they had got the user manual for the Z100 but that at the time was only XAVC 10bit. We will have to see what transpires.Clearly, typical Sony the cameras are really the same and may be identical other than the extra interfaces of the Z100. Marketing decides what one gets for what price.

Ron Evans