Question for Alastair Traill (and of course anyone else who can contribute),

Alistair, you posted a thread a few years ago on the dvinfo forum with a question about the infrared abilities of the canon xa10. I wonder if you have found a solution that works best for your (wildlife) filming at night.

I am preparing to film inside a kingfishers nest next year. I'd like to make a webcam like set up, but with a decent camera. I need to be able to film reasonably wide angle, focus at a distance of about 10 cm and use infrared. Preferably black light (so no red glow), but that's not a deal breaker. And preferably with a camera that can also be used in daylight, but that's also not a necessity.

Do you (or anyone else) have relevant experience?

Hi Cees,
You might like to take a look at the new XA20 or 25 for this. They have a wider lens than the XA10 & of course have the infrared capability. The other possibility you have with the new cameras is the ability to control the camera wirelessly. They still have the lanc control too though, so controlling the camera remotely via that & an external monitor is also possible. You should have no problem with the focus at 10cm with the lens at its widest. The new cameras do use a lot more power though than the old XA10, so being able to plug it in to mains power might be necessary.
Let me know if you would like me to try anything with the infrared on the XA20 to test if it will be suitable for what you would like to do & maybe I could test it for you.
Groeten,
Bryce

Hi Bryce,

Thanks for pointing out that there is also a XA20/25. I am not familiar with the canon line of camera's, but it seems they have some nice little camera's with infrared capability.
I will await some more input (hopefully), but may certainly ask you to do a test for me. Will get back to you with what I'd like to get tested by then.

Do you have the camera yourself (I don't see it in your public profile). If yes, what do you use it for? As a B-roll for your EX3?

Hi Cees,

As far as I know camcorders with ‘Nightshot’ or similar ALL set aperture, gain and shutter speed to the maximum so that they cannot be used in full sunlight, (Bryce may have better news). The reason seems to be that IR can pass through some fabrics potentially revealing what is underneath clothing. Manufacturers seem to regard this as undesirable.

The only IR recording I have done is with cheap surveillance cameras. These do not use Infrared cut filters but they have the disadvantage that resolution is low. However useable results can be obtained by carefully positioned lights that give some texture to the subject. Images with black areas give the illusion of greater sharpness. Another problem is that they only have automatic exposure and maybe a fixed aperture. I changed my cameras to ‘C’ mount that gave me variable apertures but did not solve the auto only exposure control.

Beware of surveillance cameras that automatically retract IR cut filters as evening approaches. I tried one of these and after the filter it was retracted the camera would decide that it was not so dark after all and replace the filter thereby cutting the light again. Having put the filter back it decided it really was dark and removed it again and so on. I sent it back.

Surveillance cameras do not normally have finders or means of recording. Mine had a composite out which I fed into my PD 150 or into a laptop. This set-up is far from portable but the cameras are small making them easy to use in tight situations and control remotely.

More recently I have been looking at current surveillance cameras. Some now have 1080p30 and 1080p60 plus HD-SDI out. I purchased one of these. Again there is no finder or recorder. The one I got works OK with a nanoFlash and DP6 monitor. However changing from 1080 to 720 has become very unreliable. The manufacturer blames the DP6 but I tested the camera on another HD-SDI monitor and the problem persisted. Note the menu settings can only be set using a monitor. I blame the camera which is now on its way back to the manufacturer under warranty.

This new camera is ‘C’ mount and has a useful back focus adjustment. It will accept auto iris lenses. The control of the IR cut filter can be either manual or automatic which avoids the problem mentioned above. The results have been much better than those taken with my cheap cameras. With the weather now warming I was hoping to do some work with our resident sugar gliders but there seems to an ailment affecting some of them. I also had a bull ant’s nest lined up. These large ants seem to be active at night as was the local echidna (spiny ant-eater) a couple of nights ago.

Another possible camera that I have started investigating is the Go Pro 3 Black. I notice that some (Novo) have been modified for use with ‘C’ mount lenses but are currently only available for hire. The Go Pro has several advantages over surveillance cameras e.g. built in recording, very small size, and relatively cheap. Rage Cams market assorted lenses with and without IR cut filters but unfortunately without apertures. They have a 16 mm macro? that focuses to 4 feet. .

I would like to get hold of a Go Pro 3 and see how practical it is for me to convert to ‘C’ mount. I would prefer not to hack into a new one at this stage. Does anyone have a ‘dead’ and unwanted Go Pro 3 black?

Thanks Alastair,

Though it seemed not to be the right choice I'd still like to ask: what was the surveillance camera with 1080p and HD-SDI that you purchased?

I have been thinking about the gopro as well. I have a hero 2 (not IR). Though I know that the Hero 3 is better, I find the lens distortion to much. To focus at very short distance you have to add a series of Macro filters in front as well.

Another option I want to investigate is to invest in a dslr and get the IR-filter removed.

The advantage of a canon XA (or similar other camera) is that you can also use it as a nice B-camera in daylight. The disadvantage is that, though very small for a video camera, they are still relatively large. This means I have to make quite large boxes aside the nest to place the camera in. It all has to be under ground and accessible in one way or another.

You say that iris, gain and aparture are all set to maximum when in IR mode. I want to film in a very small room (a nest of of only 25 cm diameter) and I can't judge what the DoF will be with max iris. that might be bit of a problem, though probably it is not to bad at widest angle. Movement of the birds won't be to much, so maximum shutter speed (which I suppose will be 1/30th for 1080p30) won't cause problems. Gain? Is it clearly present when shooting IR?

Hi Cees,
Yes I have the camera (& have updated my profile to reflect that).
Let me know if you would like me to do some tests for you.
Regards,
Bryce

Bryce, Thanks for the offer. i'll send you an e-mail.

Ok, sounds good. I am heading off to do some filming overnight, but will be back again tomorrow afternoon.

Hi Bryce,

What happens when you set your Canon XA20 to ‘night shot’ or equivalent when the light is bright? Can you still control exposure, aperture and gain?

Hi Cees,

I will post details of the surveillance camera when I see how the manufacturers deal with my claim. Meanwhile I will send you an eMail.

Hi
I also use Surveillance cameras. With a C-mount you have a lot of lenses to choose from. Do you plan that you will be able to work with the kamera in the nest or do you plan that it will be fixed? Dust and dirt on the lens or glas will be a big problem.
In this video (10min) I used a Surveillance camera with HD-SDI
Halsbåndmus on Vimeo

Hi Bo,

I want to make a construction so that I can bring in and take out the camera. For cleaning or for using it at another nest when necessary.

Interesting to see what you did. It looks like your camera was also quite close to the subject.

What brand/type of camera did you use for this?
is it full HD?
How close was it to the subject?

Hi Bo,

What lights were you using? From the colour of the leaves etc it looks as though there is some visible light present.

Hi Cees

I note that you want to focus as close as 10 cms. I do not know if you are familiar with the ‘C’ mount but it has a thread of 1” diameter and 32 threads per inch. The lens has the male thread and it is about 4-5 mm long. The distance from seating flange to sensor is 17.52 mm. ‘C’ mount was very popular with cheaper 16 mm film cameras and now with many surveillance cameras.

The screw thread makes it easy to extend the distance of the lens from the sensor thereby permitting closer focusing. If only a short extension is required you can simply add a washer with a 1mm hole between lens and camera. For longer extensions you will need an extension tube.

There is a simple formula you can use to work out what effect this extension will have. You need to know the focal length of the lens and thickness of the washer. Let us say that the amount of extension is 1mm and you have a choice of a 10mm and an 8 mm lens. To make the calculation you square the focal length giving 100 and 64 in this case. Next divide by the amount of extension in mm, say 1 for example. In this case the 10 mm lens will focus on objects 100 mm away and the 8 mm will focus on objects 64 mm away. Applying this logic to an extension of 0.5 mm would give distances of 200 and 128 mm for the lenses in question.
Note that for a 100mm lens a 1 mm extension brings the object distance to 100 m and for a 3.2 mm lens to about 10mm.

I would suggest using a lens that has a short minimum focusing distance. I have a couple of 8.5 mm Cosmicars that focus down to about 18 cms. A good focusing range reduces the need for repositioning the camera if the subject moves out of focus.

Some surveillance cameras have a backfocus adjustment – very handy for setting up zoom lenses but could also be useful for extending focusing range.

Hi Alastair,

I am not familiar with C-mount, so this is very interesting to know. But I don't get what you mean with a washer with a 1 mm hole. A 1 mm hole would almost completely cover the lens opening, so I probably don't understand you well.

Hi Cees ,

Sorry, I meant to say a 1" hole so that it slips neatly over the male thread of the lens.

That makes sense. I now have a clear picture of what you mean. Thanks.

Alastair,

I suppose you have to add IR light source to this camera, or does it have a light source itself? Can you use complete black IR light, or red glow?

Same question for Bryce. Does the Canon light show a red glow, or is it completely invisible?

Hi Cees,

The cameras I use do not have built in lights. Some Infrared LEDS put out some red that is visible. This can be a useful indicator of whether your lights are working or not.

I have downloaded some old stills that may be of interest. One shows a 25mm x 25mm camera as it comes, another shows the camera with a focusing mechanism added, one of these was used to record a platypus in its underground nesting chamber (not by me), another was used to record a Tasmanian devil in its burrow (again not by me). The platypus nest was located by radio tagging a nursing female and radio tracking her to the nest. Then a hole was bored into the chamber and lined with a plugged plastic tube. Every now and then the plug would be removed and the camera would be lowered down the tube to see what was happening. Another picture shows one of the cameras fitted with a ‘C’ mount lens and motorized belt driven remote focus. The final picture shows the same camera mounted on a ‘hothead’ which in turn was mounted on a boom supporting some infrared LED panels. It was used to record a feeding phascogale (by me).

The LED panels were only available in kit form at the time. There is a wider choice available nowadays
.
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Wow Alastair,
That all looks very high tech. It must be very useful being able to put this stuff together yourself!
Cees, the light on the XA20 that I have is not red, at least I don't see any light at all in complete darkness. It is however, a very small light source & the camera would benefit greatly from more lights & closer to your subject at distances over a meter or so away. With anything close up, the onboard light is sufficient enough that the picture is very clear & free of noise. With your subjects further from the light source though, the grain increases rapidly due to the auto gain being on & not being able to turn it off.
Regards,
Bryce

Hi I have used an Everfocus C mount camera with HD-SDI
EverFocus EQH5202 Day & Night Camera EQH5202 B&H Photo Video
and a Fujinon lens
Fujinon TF2.8DA-8 15mm C-Mount Lens TF2.8DA-8 B&H Photo Video
Today there are better cameras. In Denmark I got this http://www.2bsecurity.com/Datasheet/Cameras/BKC-SDI-21_SDI-23_SDI-R10.pdf
but in the US you can get it under the name SHANY ELECTRONIC CO.,LTD. (http://www.shany.com/all.asp?fname=p03-0b)
I prefer to use external lights, because light coming form a short distance will vary a lot when the distance to the object shift. In a small place you will probably quickly get problems with shadows of the lens so maybe light from around the lens would be nice to have too. Problem with that type of camera is that they always are automatic. I set the infrared light so I will get a direction of the light - just as in daylight. keylight and backlight. I have thougt of doing the same recordings as you have and also with swallows that dig their nests into the river banks. I could not figure out to solve the practical problems. The birds keps digging and moving the nest further into the bank, when necesarry

A cheap way of getting infrared lights is to buy cheap SD IR cameraes with built in IR lights - and then just use them as lights - like these Swann PRO-530 Multi-Purpose Day/Night Outdoor SWPRO-530PK4-US
a small IR light Videolarm IR-10M 850nm 70&#176 IR Illuminator - Up to IR10M

Wonder if heat in the nest will be a problem?

Hi Bo,

Thanks for your input as well. Good idea about the cheap cameras to just use as light source.

I see advantages in the surveilance cameras, but certainly also disatvantages, the main one being that everything is in auto mode. That is more or less the same with the canon XA20.

I found a company in the UK that does conversions of dslr's into infrared camera's. I have a GH3 that they can convert. I might opt for that one for general shootiong at night. For in the nest I will investigate RageCam's IR converted Gopro options. The canon also still is a consideration, but at this stage I think I am better off with a converted GH3.

Hi Bo,

Have you had any problems with the automatic IR cut filter in the Everfocus? I tried another brand and it could not decide whether it should be in or out (see my earlier post if you want more information). My current camera has automatic OR manual filter control that works ok.

Do you know the price of the Shany? I did not get a reply when I asked.

Did you use the the Swann lamps for the Halsbandmus?

Hi
I had no problems with the automatic IR filter - do not remember if the everfocus can be set to B/W in the menu so it will not shift. The Shany seems to have it manually - mine can be set to B/W in the menu and it will keep the IR filter off (mine is a older model than them they have on their homepage).
I use some IR spots I bought once as lightning on the recording of the mouse. One of them is this one IR-294S/90 (http://www.monacor.dk/produkter/security-infraredfloodlight/vnr/182440/) but have some older models too. My biggest problem is when daylight fades away and my IR lightning takes over - the different wavelength of the light demands different focus setting - so when there is both daylight and IR light the picture is not sharp. If I want to get rid of that I have to mount a daylight filter on the camera to filter IR pass - only. Most of the companies that offer the IR modification also offer to mount the daylight filter. I have a dream of filming the Beavers building their dam. I have bougt several remoteheads for that, but not yet found a IR camera that could handle my B4 lenses so I can use zoom and focus by remote. I wonder too - to get a GH3 modified to try it. I have filmed some owls and the problem was to get enough IR light on them although I almost knew where they would land on a roof. Decent recordings anyway - I will upload them so you can see them :)

Hi Bo,

I will keep you informed about my findings with the modification of the GH3.

Very interested to know if you succeed with the beavers. I am working on beavers here in Holland as well.

If you like, please upload your owl footage. I found you on Vimeo (must be you) with some excellent stuff!!

Hi Bo,

Thanks for the information. I now have 4 lamps that seem similar in power consumption and external characteristics to your IR-294S/90 To save bulk and weight I have removed the panels from their housings and I am in the process of making mounts so that they can be used individually or ganged together. I have also a couple of IR spotlights. I hope that at last I will have more than enough illumination.

_DSC9516.jpg (934.0 KB)

I use some IR spots I bought once as lightning on the recording of the mouse. One of them is this one IR-294S/90 (http://www.monacor.dk/produkter/security-infraredfloodlight/vnr/182440/) but have some older models too.

Hi Bo,

Is such a light significantly better than the cheaper lights you mentioned in your earlier post? I want to have good light for owl filming.

Saw your owl film on Vimeo. Looks very interesting (though I don't understand Danish). What camera and light did you generally use for the small owl at night? Some footage is quite noisy, other footage much cleaner.

I was also very impressed by the dragonfly you did (Kongeguldsmed). I'd like to do something like that with dragonfly in the Kingfisher film I am making. Probably you can give me some advise. I will send you an e-mail for that shortly.

Hi
The problem is that there must really be a lot of IR light if the camera should not start gaining. Most IR Lamps state a distance they can light up. This is a specification that is difficult to use because you cannot know how much gain there is needed to film in the specified distance from the IR Lamp. Flood lights only have light enough to film a few meters away without the need of gain - specially with a HD camera - remember every pixel is only about a quarter of the size than in a SD kamera. I needed to light up a large area so I was shure to have light where the owl would land. I did not dare to put the stands and lights to close - if it would frighten the birds.

Realized that a lot has happend to HD IR cameras since I did the film about the owls. Ordered different newer ones to try out. Everfocus seems to be making the best and cheap IR HD 's for now. Bigger IR lamps are also available now. Tonight I tested a cheap everfocus with too much light. The iris was not available because the camera is with a fixed lens - so it got too bright. Next week I get another one to try.
Pindsvin IR 25P VIM on Vimeo

Hi
Got some Everfocus EQH5102 HD-SDI surveillance camera's.
Removed the IR filter carefully with a screwdriver (it must be broken out) and took a few millimeters of the CS adapter. Very nice sensibility for IR light and they have a menu system where the AGC can be set to zero so the lightning can be controlled.
200 dollars for a camera :)
Everfocus IR Test EQH5102 with removed IR filter. on Vimeo
Only problem is in the dawn with both IR and normal light from the sky - the focus cannot be set properly. If I want to film the beavers I need a camera for daylight too. Guess I will use my Panasonic AG-HE60 at the dam too.

Hi Bo,

Have you got any idea about the quality of footage this camera delivers compared to the Gopro Hero 3, with or without IR filter removed?

Cees

Hi
A friend of mine have a Gopro that have been modified for IR - He will visit me one of theese days to try some different IR light - then I will know :) I have not forgot you Cees ;)

Thanks Bo. Very much looking forward to the outcome. Still preparing the in-nest filming of kingfishers for next year. Had the Gopro in mind, but this certainly looks an alternative to investigate.

What lens do you use by the way on this camera? I suppose that with C/CS-mount lenses you can alter backfocus by not completely screwing in the lens and thus be able to focus at very close distance. I need to be able to focus at about 10 cm.

I have by the way got my GH3 infrared converted. Not done any proper filming yet, but some testing showed very pleasing results. This is too big however for my kingfisher setup.

No problem when filming very close - you can always play with the back focus and the CS adapter as I did.
I use often this Fujinon lens "TF2.8DA-8 1/3-Inch CCD 2.8mm, f/2.2 Fixed Focal Length"
I cannot imagine that you will have any problem with the quality at so close range. My friend told me that the Gopro isent very sensitive with IR - but in a nest it cannot be a problem.
Probably the gopro with its fisheye lens would be fine there - but there may be a problem with focussing at that close range...
Maybe you should look at IR light with 940nm wavelength - these IR light are totally black - the one I use are 850nm and they are red when you look at them.
Bo

Bo, with what device do you capture your footage on the Everfocus? I have a nanoflash and wonder if that works.

Hi Bo/Cees

I'd like to second Bo's setup. I used over 10 Everfocus camera for a UK programme I worked on 'Foxes Live'. They produced very good results and as Bo says the menu system makes the camera quite controllable. They are HD-sdi so yes you could use a nanoflash. I fed them all into blackmagic capture cards on a fast mac station.

The lens mount is C/CS but you can get adapters for various lenses including EF. Although there are some very good c-mount lenses available.

Mat

Thanks Bo and Mat. The Everfocus seems a good choice. I'll go for it.

Yes we are lucky that the surveillance cameraes use the same HD-SDI Standard as we do. Considering if you you would like to go for a 50P camera instead. It will give you the possibility to go for half speed with a fast moving bird....
The Everfocus I mentioned can do both 25P and 30P so it will work with EU standards.
The Sony PMW-F5 have filters to avoid moire - they can be changed for 2K or 4K. What if the IR filter are build into the moire filter - that would be awesome. Then we could have a high quality camera for IR.... and doing 240 frames per second.
Cannot see if they are in the same, removable filter.
Just read that the IR filter is sitting right on the chip of the PMW-F5/55 :(

Of course it really depends on what the application is as to what camera I would choose. These were a good choice for remotes although properly rigged I'm sure they would make a good operated choice too. They are of course only 1/3rd chip cams.

The best operated IR cam I've used is a converted 5dmk2. The results with a 70-200 were very good. Super sharp and when well lit the image noise was as you'd expect very well controlled (ISO's of 1000-1600ish.)

Quote: -
"They are of course only 1/3rd chip cams."

I would not rule out a small chip camera, particularly for the kingfisher project that Cees is contemplating i.e. a working distance of 10 cm.

For a while I was using a ¼” sensor on a nest box project and then changed to a 2/3” camera only to obtain inferior results. The reason was simple – I was expecting greater sensitivity with the larger sensor – something that the new camera did not have. To get the same coverage with the larger sensor I had to use longer focal length lenses that of course have less depth of field. Without a gain in sensitivity I could not improve the depth of field by stopping down. I now have more powerful sources of infrared and so could use smaller apertures but regrettably those subjects are no longer about.

Agree - no reason to go for large sensors when filming in IR. I once thought that large sensors would have better light sensitivity, but the size is not the most important - using C lenses are great for macro, wildlife and to give the sense of being close.

You don't mention which 2/3rds camera you used but your comparing it to a 5dmk2 ? Take it from me this produced the sharpest/cleanest IR images that I have seen and I've used many different IR cameras both hand op'd and remotes including hot heads. I hadn't read the start on the post and if this is a remote @ 10cms yes having a deep dof would be useful to give you a good chance of having the action you want in focus.

However if you use a 5d/7d and run it through a laptop/Eos software you would also have focus control which could be very useful. Of course you then get the benefit of using great glass and the subsequent IQ that goes with it.

"No reason to go for large sensors when filming in IR" ? - On the contrary I think that DSLRS make very good IR cameras. The BBC NHU has the converted unit I've used and that has been used on all sorts of blue chip sequences. Now a converted C300 ! - that would be sweet!

Another two factors to consider when selecting lenses for IR work are the coatings used on the lens elements and the coatings used on the internal components that hold the lens together. The lens coatings may absorb infrared and I understand that in the case of the supplied lens in the GoPro the Infra red cutting is achieved by the lens coating. If the coatings on the internal surfaces do not absorb enough of the extraneous light bouncing around the lens interior, image quality will suffer. I was surprised to find that the black dye that my anodiser uses reflects infrared quite effectively.

Mat,
What kind of IR lights did you use and how many? I hear that you need to carry big batteries?
Cheers,
Sabyasachi

I am using a IR converted 550d to film badgers in an urban environment. Providing that the subjects are well lit then the results are excellent. Lighting is key. The advantage with a converted DSLR is that you are not chained to an external recorder and you can be very mobile.

I am using 3 IR illuminators, cheap ones bought online. One is an IR 60 degree floodlight, plus two small IR spots (30 degrees) to punch light into the shadows. They all run off a 12v motorcycle battery which runs them for a full night. There are better lights available but these are expensive.

The whole kit goes into a camera rucksack (naturetrekker).

Hi James
I would love to see a clip made by your canon camera
Although I am very satisfied with my Everfocus 200 dollar camera I would still like to make the footagebetter.
This is from a everfocus camera with built-in IR diodes - this gives a very flat picture with no shadows and I would not recommend it - I have used it to see what kind of life there is in my little lake in the garden.
Endnu en IR test on Vimeo

Hi Bo,

I will upload something when I get back into the office next week. Just a thought, if you were to mask off the IR Diodes (with tape or something similar) on your Everfocus camera and use external lighting from an IR illuminator then you may notice a difference. Front lighting is generally going to give a flat image with no shadows, effective but not always pretty, especially with regards to reflections/glowing in the eyes.

James

Hi James
I have two other IR everfocus cameraes of the same kind - without IR diodes :) I am planning to film a beaver dam so the camera with IR LED's can be used as lightning and a total of the dam, to see what is happening.
I'll look forward to see your footage :)

No problem when filming very close - you can always play with the back focus and the CS adapter as I did.
I use often this Fujinon lens "TF2.8DA-8 1/3-Inch CCD 2.8mm, f/2.2 Fixed Focal Length"
I cannot imagine that you will have any problem with the quality at so close range. My friend told me that the Gopro isent very sensitive with IR - but in a nest it cannot be a problem.
Probably the gopro with its fisheye lens would be fine there - but there may be a problem with focussing at that close range...
Maybe you should look at IR light with 940nm wavelength - these IR light are totally black - the one I use are 850nm and they are red when you look at them.
Bo

Hi Bo,

Is there a reason for this lens? It seems a bit more expensive than other lenses and has quite a large F-number as well. Is it the quality of the lens that made you chose for it?