Greetings!

I am looking for some advice in upgrading my current SD multicamera setup to HD. Specifically I am looking for suggestions as to what cameras I should be looking at.

I already have a 2 camera SD setup. I am using the Blackmagic ATEM TVS as my switcher. My cameras are Canon GL1's. My switcher is already a high def switcher, so I am hoping I can simply replace the cameras with high def ones and be good to go.

I don't want to spend a lot of money though. I have about four grand to spend altogether on this upgrade. What I am looking at doing is picking up three Sony FX7's used off of Amazon for about $1,000 a piece. I am also looking at getting a 14' Proaim jib kit off of ebay with pan-tilt head for about a $1000.

What I am wonder is are there other cameras I should be considering? It would be nice to stick with cameras that offered lanc control ports. If you were me, what would you do?

Here is a video showing my current setup- Home Television Studio - YouTube

How would you upgrade it with $4,000?

You have a very nice set-up. Your solution to the delay caused by the SDI converter is great and I will keep it in mind.

I set up specialty switcher installations for clients frequently and the issues caused by HD usually force the client to remain with SD. The big issue is the lack of usable HD outputs on many economy priced HD cameras, the FX7 being one of them. The live output on the FX7 is via the FireWire port which means that it's transmitting a MPEG stream for HDV. Perhaps there is a FireWire to HDSDI converter out there that costs less than $3000 but I have not heard of one. Convergent Designs made one similar to the converters you have now but it's long been out of production (Convergent Design HD-Connect SI HDV to HD/SD-SDI Converter). You should really try to search for old HD cameras that have SDI out but I can't assure you that will be cheap. There are quite a few used HD cameras that have analog HD-RGB outputs (by coincidence, I'm trying to sell one now on eBay) but converters you'll need to get will cost about $800 each new.

Seeing that the ATEM switchers have HDMI inputs along with the SDI inputs perhaps you should look into HD cameras with HDMI outputs. You can get some very decent semi-pro cameras with HDMI that are close to $1000, a new Panasonic AG-AC7 is around $1200, a new JVC GY-HM70U is around $1500. Of course you should make sure that the outputs can be set clean without viewfinder info burned in. HDMI cables can be an issue depending on the lengths you foresee using, SDI is much better for long distances. This page should give you an idea: How Long Can HDMI Cable be Run? -- Blue Jeans Cable (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/how-long-can-hdmi-run.htm)

Regarding the FX7 for wedding work, switching issues aside, was never much in low light to begin. It's 1/4" inch sensors are to blame for it's poor low light performance. I had an FX7 and used it for one wedding before I happily sold it at a loss.

Best of luck to you.

You have a very nice set-up. Your solution to the delay caused by the SDI converter is great and I will keep it in mind.

I set up specialty switcher installations for clients frequently and the issues caused by HD usually force the client to remain with SD. The big issue is the lack of usable HD outputs on many economy priced HD cameras, the FX7 being one of them. The live output on the FX7 is via the FireWire port which means that it's transmitting a MPEG stream for HDV. Perhaps there is a FireWire to HDSDI converter out there that costs less than $3000 but I have not heard of one. Convergent Designs made one similar to the converters you have now but it's long been out of production (Convergent Design HD-Connect SI HDV to HD/SD-SDI Converter). You should really try to search for old HD cameras that have SDI out but I can't assure you that will be cheap. There are quite a few used HD cameras that have analog HD-RGB outputs (by coincidence, I'm trying to sell one now on eBay) but converters you'll need to get will cost about $800 each new.

Seeing that the ATEM switchers have HDMI inputs along with the SDI inputs perhaps you should look into HD cameras with HDMI outputs. You can get some very decent semi-pro cameras with HDMI that are close to $1000, a new Panasonic AG-AC7 is around $1200, a new JVC GY-HM70U is around $1500. Of course you should make sure that the outputs can be set clean without viewfinder info burned in. HDMI cables can be an issue depending on the lengths you foresee using, SDI is much better for long distances. This page should give you an idea: How Long Can HDMI Cable be Run? -- Blue Jeans Cable (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/how-long-can-hdmi-run.htm)

Thank you for the detailed reply. As far as connecting the FX7, or any other camera I may get, to my switcher via SDI I was hoping to use the blackmagic mini converters I am already using with the GL1s. As I understood, the FX7 did offer analog component out in HD. The HD component out could be connected to the mini converter, then SDI from the mini-converter to the switcher.

I have also been checking out the Panasonic AG-AC7 and the JVC HM70u. If I remember correctly, both these cameras only offer a single 1/4" chip. Would I not be getting a bit better quality with the 3 chips on the FX7? Also I am not sure if the Pansonic or the JVC supports lanc controls.

Hi Adam,

As an FX7 owner, I must share that it DOES have an HDMI out port, seems to be a misconception in this thread that it does not? Also has the component out. As you are likely aware, HDMI is good for very short runs only, so you'd want the Black Magic HDMI to SDI mini converter for best results.

I do have to agree that the low light on the FX7 is mediocre at best. Don't let the gain go above 6, gets very noisy very quickly. I often drop shutter to 30 to gain some light!

Regarding LANC - even though there is not a LANC jack on the FX7, it might be possible to get that feature using an adapter cable, see here - Sony LANC Adapter Cable - AV/R Pro LANC 10 pin Adapter Cable 2.5 mm to D connector Video Audio (http://www.studio1productions.com/lanc-sa.htm)

Not sure what the used prices are, but check out the Sony FX-1000 cameras, much better low light than the FX7.

Thanks

Don't know the other cams. I do know that for wedding work, 1/4" sensors do not cut it in low light, whether you have one, or three sensors.

I would look at the FX1 or Z1 (don't know about it's output abilities, I had two of them but it's been awhile ago) which can easily be found for around $1K or less. You will find, coming from the 1/3" CCDs of the GH2, that comparable HD cams are not quite as good in low light, but the FX1 is far superior to the FX7 at least. The Canon equivalent is the XH-A1, I think, but again in low light, the FX1 is superior in low light. Low light ability is king in wedding work, and in it's class and price range the FX1 is a best bet.

I personally would not opt for a tape based camera, but that is me. I prefer to shoot with a camera that offers full 1920x1080 as opposed to 1440, but again that is me. Best of luck to you.

I agree with Jeff, the FX1000 is an excellent choice, better than the FX1, but it's going to be a tad more expensive. You'd save money with the FX1, but the FX1000, of which I had three, is a much nicer camera.

Sorry about the mix-up, I was using Sony's spec sheet here: HDR-FX7 | HD Handycam® Camcorder Review | Sony Store (http://store.sony.com/p/HDR-FX7/en/p/HDRFX7#specifications) which leaves out the HDMI connector but they offer HDMI cables for the camera. Analog HD-RGB isn't listed either. Go figure. I have an old Sony HD1000 which has an HDMI output on it.

Apparently if one gets a decent HDMI cable under 45 feet, one can expect to transmit 720p, 1080i and 1080p successfully. Longer than that an HDMI amplifier is needed. From experience I know that USB and FireWire need amplifiers for runs of 15 feet or longer and I have installed them. HDMI I have never run longer than 10 feet. I would recommend exploring the HDMI option first.

A related question, are you thinking of live switching a wedding ceremony? It's an interesting idea to save time in editing but I would be afraid to do it unless I was able to practice at a rehearsal in the chapel. I live switch interviews (and sometimes music) frequently but that's easy compared to a complicated ceremony of any sort. Would you use an intercom to talk to the camera people? How far away do you think you have to be to not interfere with the event?

Yep one off events on location like weddings, will be a tough call.

Adam I watched your video ^ and with live TV production experience and noting your upgrade path, imo you need to look for pro presenters both male and female. Eventually you become the TV event producer with maybe, a director switching in the truck. All this doesn't happen overnight but keeping a lookout for the talent can be an ongoing thing.

Cheers.

Thank you so much everyone for all of the replies. Especially thank you for pointing me at the Sony FX1 and FX1000. Unfortunately, purchasing three of the FX1000's are a bit outside of my price range. The FX1 looks like it will be a really good choice for me though.

Also, keep in mind the Z1, which as you may know is the pro version of the FX1. A Z1 just sold on the classifieds here for $1000. With the pro audio connectors, it is a nice camera.

I figured I would post an update on how my multi-cam HD live system is coming along since so many of you took the time to give me such great advice.

I ended up going with the FX1 cameras. I looked around for Z1's, but couldn't find any in my price range. At this point I have almost all the major components ordered, I am just waiting for everything to arrive.

When completed the system will support four cameras- Two tripod mounted FX1s, a jib mounted FX1, and a handheld JVC HM700. There will be two graphics channels and two video playback channels. I will have a total of six possible audio sources- Four UHF wireless mics and two other inputs from an external mixer or house audio. The system will also have the capability to do live internet streaming.

Additionally I will be using a power conditioner with battery backup to protect the equipment. This way, if needed, I can run the whole system off of a gasoline generator if shore power is not available.

I don't plan on doing too many weddings with this system. Weddings really aren't my thing- I don't mind doing them from time to time, but there are so many really great videographers that specialize in weddings and that simply isn't my area of expertise. I do more live performances, such as dance exhibitions and concerts. Though I still may end up doing some weddings, that is not my main intent. Besides using this system for my own projects, I also plan to rent it out to other videographers in my area.

Attached to this post are a few pictures of things so far. I only have a couple items installed in the rackmount case. I am also building a rackmountable PC that will handle the graphics and video recording.

I will continue to post updates as the system comes together.

Again, thank you everyone for all of your suggestions and advice.

Adam,
That's a really cool system. Thanks for osting.

I'm wondering if you have already spent more then a comparable Tricaster system?

Adam,
That's a really cool system. Thanks for osting.

I'm wondering if you have already spent more then a comparable Tricaster system?

I love the tricaster. I think it is a fantastic piece of gear. Adding up the cost of everything though, I am still saving a fair amount over a tricaster.

With the tricaster I would still need an audio mixer, mic system, power conditioner, monitors, and many of the other things I have in my system anyway.

If I were to go the tricaster road, the things that it would replace in my setup are the PC and the ATEM switcher. The ATEM switcher I am using costs just about $1,000. The pc I am building is pretty inexpensive, only $550. By comparison the TriCaster 40 is about $5,000. So I am saving $3,450 over a tricaster based system.

So are you using the PC for live streaming?

So are you using the PC for live streaming?

Yes.

There is a software package called MX Light by an independent programmer that I have been using. It is a remarkable companion for the Blackmagic ATEM Television Studio switcher. The switcher has its own hardware H.264 encoder. MX Light allows you to adjust the hardware encoder settings and re-stream the H.264 stream without re-encoding it. While streaming you can also simultaneously record the program as well.

Since the encoding is happening in the switcher, not the PC, there is very little CPU overhead. Also, because no re-encoding is needed the delay between what is happening live and what a viewer sees on the internet stream is significantly reduced.

Just a quick update on my progress in putting all this together-

I have the PC installed in the rackmount case now. I am still waiting on my wireless receiver and power conditioner/battery backup unit to arrive.

Yes.

There is a software package called MX Light by an independent programmer that I have been using. It is a remarkable companion for the Blackmagic ATEM Television Studio switcher. The switcher has its own hardware H.264 encoder. MX Light allows you to adjust the hardware encoder settings and re-stream the H.264 stream without re-encoding it. While streaming you can also simultaneously record the program as well.

Since the encoding is happening in the switcher, not the PC, there is very little CPU overhead. Also, because no re-encoding is needed the delay between what is happening live and what a viewer sees on the internet stream is significantly reduced.


Now this is looking good, Might make me sell the boat.
The streaming part with low overhead makes it real attractive.

So is there any additional equipment needed to do this?

Now this is looking good, Might make me sell the boat.
The streaming part with low overhead makes it real attractive.

So is there any additional equipment needed to do this?

To facilitate live streaming with the Blackmagic ATEM Television studio all you need is a PC running Windows, the ATEM switcher, and the MXLight software.

As the video switcher uses a network connection for control, you will either need a PC with two network adapters to control the the switcher and stream, or a network router.

Audio input on the switcher is AES/EBU only, so you would likely need some kind of audio converter.

Of course you will also need a fast enough internet connection to stream from.

I do live streaming all the time. But it's typically with powerpoints and video side by side.

From the information you provided though this a good way for me to do HD video streaming with that software.

I did some checking and I can do the same thing with the Black Magic H.264 Pro Recorder as it does the encoding on the device as well. And the MX Light software will bridge the gap. I'm doing HD now but off the CPU.

Thanks for the heads up!

Do you have a good streaming provider? I can recommend one that's really good and cost effective.
'

I do live streaming all the time. But it's typically with powerpoints and video side by side.

From the information you provided though this a good way for me to do HD video streaming with that software.

I did some checking and I can do the same thing with the Black Magic H.264 Pro Recorder as it does the encoding on the device as well. And the MX Light software will bridge the gap. I'm doing HD now but off the CPU.

Thanks for the heads up!

Do you have a good streaming provider? I can recommend one that's really good and cost effective.
'

In regards to a streaming provider, what is cost effective really depends on the size of your audience.

Since most of the live streaming I have done has been to relatively small groups, DaCast works great. Especially since I can embed the DaCast player in my website with no DaCast branding.

Don't know the other cams. I do know that for wedding work, 1/4" sensors do not cut it in low light, whether you have one, or three sensors.


Jeff,

I have been shooting weddings with two Sony V1U's with 1/4" sensors for years without any low light issues at weddings. Maybe I have been lucky and have not had to deal with any venue's as dark as you have to deal with.

At receptions we use LED lights mounted on the cameras if the room is too dark. In the past year we have added a Canon XA10 and Canon t4i to our kit and I really have not noticed any huge improvement in low light capability with footage shot with them vs the V1U's.

[QUOTE=.

Since most of the live streaming I have done has been to relatively small groups, DaCast works great. Especially since I can embed the DaCast player in my website with no DaCast branding.[/QUOTE]

I have a Dacast account too. But not for long. Dacast is just a reseller for Edgecast. Scale Engine is both cheaper and better. It's very easy to use and these guys are sharp. And most any good service will allow embedding the player. Give them a look.

Dacast is nice but they stumble with too much stuff. Their still behind on IOS etc.. But I could see how they would be very suitable for a lot of streamers.

I have a Dacast account too. But not for long. Dacast is just a reseller for Edgecast. Scale Engine is both cheaper and better. It's very easy to use and these guys are sharp. And most any good service will allow embedding the player. Give them a look.

Dacast is nice but they stumble with too much stuff. Their still behind on IOS etc.. But I could see how they would be very suitable for a lot of streamers.


I'll have to check out Scale Engine. Thanks for the recommendation.

I started using DaCast because someone else told me about it. It seems simple and their pricing structure seems a good fit for what I do. I don't have too much experience with other paid streaming services- I just know that DaCast was working well for me.

Adam,
I'm certainly not saying DaCast is bad. I just think Scale Engine is better. And price wise it's major when you do start streaming to bigger audiences which I suspect you will with that awesome system you got.

The cost difference is nothing to sneeze at. And the guys that run it are industry gurus.

I just wanted to post another update on the progress as everything comes together.

I received my UHF wireless mic system and have the receiver installed in the rack case. The only thing left to go in the case now is the UPS which should arrive tomorrow.

My camera crane also arrived this past week. I was able to get it all set up without any issues- But I am going to need to invest in some more counter weights. I have eighteen pounds of weights, but that wasn't quite enough to balance it out.

That is one nice rig. How many wireless do you have?

What jib did you get? Pictures?

That is one nice rig. How many wireless do you have?

What jib did you get? Pictures?

I have four wireless mics, which is the maximum number the receiver I have can use simultaneously. The audio mixer supports six different input sources, so in addition to the four wireless mics I could also bring in audio from two additional hard wired sources.

The jib I purchased is the ProAim jib- They started out as an E-bay company from what I understand and manufacture their jibs in India. Despite reading positive reviews about their products, I was highly skeptical. It is by far not the best jib in the world, but I was pleasantly surprised at just how good it is.

Once I get the counter weights for it I will get it all set up again and post some pictures. Once I have the whole system up and running I will be making a video showing how everything works.

Thanks, I'm intrigued.

High definition video flypack update-

The final major component that goes into the rack case arrived today, the Furman F1000 power conditioner and battery backup unit. I am still waiting on various patch cables and connectors so I can hook everything up and get it working, but I now have all the major components.

Starting at the bottom of the rack is the power conditioner and battery backup unit. This provides power for the whole system. It allows me to plug into AC power sources that provide irregular and unreliable power. Even under poor power conditions, it will still output constant clean AC power to all of the other components. It also features a battery backup, so if I should loose power for any reason everything won't just shut down.

Moving up the case is the PC. The PC serves three primary purposes in this setup- First the video switcher is controlled via PC software. It is possible to purchase a dedicated hardware control panel for the switcher, but that is an additional $5,000. The PC also works as a graphics machine, allowing you to edit video graphics and photoshop and load them into the video switcher's graphics channels via USB. Finally the PC also acts as the video recorder, allowing several hours of high def recording from the main program out of the video switcher.

Above the PC is the audio mixer. This is a basic 6 input line level audio mixer, so there isn't too much to say about it. Four of the inputs will be tied to the wireless audio receiver. The other two inputs will remain free for patching into a house audio system or adding additional hard wired audio sources- Such as from a video playback system where pre-recorded video elements or instant replays are necessary.

Next is a pro level analog to digital audio converter. The main output from the audio mixer will be connected to this converter. It will then output a digital AES/EBU audio signal. The video switcher only accepts AES/EBU audio, so this component is necessary to tie the audio in with the video.

In addition to converting the analog audio to digital, this converter provides some other useful features. The detailed VU meters will make it much easier for the audio operator to monitor levels. It also features a built in world clock sync generator which can be used for genlocking the video switcher and cameras. This will prevent audio sync drift in extremely long recordings.

Finally at the top of the rack is the wireless audio receiver. This receiver will work with four individual microphones all simultaneously. The four display screens on it will let the audio operator monitor the status of the different microphones, including how much battery they have left and signal strength.

Moving around to the back of the unit it is obvious that I haven't done any of the cabling yet. At the bottom of the case from the back you can see the video switcher itself. This is where all the cameras and video sources get connect. It allows me to cut, dissolve, or wipe between the various sources. It supports live graphics keying on two internal media channels. It also has a built in high quality chroma keyer.

The video switcher also has a broadcast grade hardware H.264 encoder built in. This means I can connect the encoder to the PC via ordinary USB and save the output. Since the video switcher is doing all the video encoding, the PC's processor is hardly used at all in this process.

I should have all the various cables and connectors I need to start hooking everything up next week. Once I have everything up and running I will post another update.

Nice, What's the weight going to be ? I hope you are keeping it under 50 lbs.?

Can you ship it in this case?

Nice, What's the weight going to be ? I hope you are keeping it under 50 lbs.?

Can you ship it in this case?

Right now the total weight is 44 lbs. I suspect it will probably be closer to 45 once all the cabling is finished. Most of the weight is from the power conditioner- That thing is heavy!

And yes, I suppose I could ship it in this case. However, most of what I plan on using it for is local so at this point I am not intending on shipping it anywhere.

This is very interesting. I've actually been tossing the idea around in my brain about making a rather complicated but certainly doable three camera live switching system for shooting wedding ceremonies with DSLR's. Basically each tripod with a DSLR on it would be setup with remote pan/tilt as well as remote motorized follow focus. These would also have a wireless HD transmitter installed. I could then theoretically control all three cameras from one location. I'm fairly certain I could build the pan,tilt, focus device for under 2,000 a piece. I'd then run it all into a beefy portable pc or laptop solution and live edit similar to what you are doing.

Its an interesting idea. Glad to see your succeeding in your project!

Actually when I started doing wedding probably at least 30 years ago, i built a cart on wheels and had a 3 camera live switched rig that we would roll into the church. and lay out the cable. It was so cool. i would say even today that would be the way to go.

I don't know if anybody remembers the Showtime switcher and genlock. That was the heart of my system.

Along with Radio Shack headsets for communication between the cameras.

Adam if you ever plan to fly with this thing keep it under 50 lbs are you're gonna pay through the nose.

This is very interesting. I've actually been tossing the idea around in my brain about making a rather complicated but certainly doable three camera live switching system for shooting wedding ceremonies with DSLR's. Basically each tripod with a DSLR on it would be setup with remote pan/tilt as well as remote motorized follow focus. These would also have a wireless HD transmitter installed. I could then theoretically control all three cameras from one location. I'm fairly certain I could build the pan,tilt, focus device for under 2,000 a piece. I'd then run it all into a beefy portable pc or laptop solution and live edit similar to what you are doing.

Its an interesting idea. Glad to see your succeeding in your project!

I really enjoy being able to switch and direct multi-camera shoots live. Being able to see what all the cameras are coordinate all the shots I feel helps me deliver a much, much better product than I would be able to otherwise.

Currently I am planning on using HD-SDI cable to go from my cameras to the switcher. In the future I would love to upgrade to a wireless HD video transmission system, but at this point I don't have the funds to do that. There are also a couple upgrade I want to do first, once I start making some money with this system. The first thing I am going to do is upgrade the communications system to a professional intercom solution- No more FRS radios. Next I want to get a dedicated hardware control panel for the switcher, instead of running control software on the PC.

Once you get your system all set up I would be very curious to see how it works for you. Personally I like having human camera operators, but I am intrigued by the idea of a fully automated system.

Actually when I started doing wedding probably at least 30 years ago, i built a cart on wheels and had a 3 camera live switched rig that we would roll into the church. and lay out the cable. It was so cool. i would say even today that would be the way to go.

I don't know if anybody remembers the Showtime switcher and genlock. That was the heart of my system.

Along with Radio Shack headsets for communication between the cameras.

Adam if you ever plan to fly with this thing keep it under 50 lbs are you're gonna pay through the nose.

I really don't plan on flying with this system, but who knows what the future will bring. Still, I am trying to keep it as light as possible for the sake of portability.

High def flypack update-

My various cables and connectors that I needed to start wiring everything up arrived on Friday. As a result I was able to do all the cabling for the flypack.

This should have been the final step. At this point everything should be working and I have everything I need. Unfortunately there is one component that is apparently not working. The Behringer SRC2496, the A/D audio converter, is not functioning properly. Some of the buttons on the front are not responding and it is not outputting audio.

An internet search has revealed that this is a hardware issue. Unfortunately it is now too late to return it to the retailer, so I have to try to go through Behringer's warranty repair service. Based on what I've read online, this could potentially take several months.

Obviously this is extremely frustrating. I was hoping to start advertising the system for rental within a few days. Now I have no clue how long it is going to take before I have it all up and running.

On a positive note, everything else is working perfectly. Video switching, audio mixing, and wireless audio system are all functioning beautifully. I just can't combine the audio with the video for recording or live streaming.

It's been a while since I have posted an update on the progress of my Flypack.

It is done!

I finally have everything put together and working. All the various cables and connectors, everything. Now all I have to do is finish my website and get some clients :-)

Attached is a picture of the finished flypack showing how it will likely be set up when I am actually using it on gigs. The table is a portable folding table, there are two monitors plus the keyboard and mouse that will all need to be plugged in. This is all run off of the power conditioner with only a single power cord for everything. The cameras will all plugin to the back of the flypack. I can run four wireless mics off of the flypack itself, but I also have two free 1/4" audio inputs for patching in external sources.