Normally it is frowned upon to give links to other fora, but in this case I make an exception, since it is not a matter of copying and pasting, but informative.

See Adobe Community: 7/11, not 9/11 (http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1252501?tstart=0)

I may have more time to spend here now.

Considering how bad CC works right now...... I'm sticking with 6 as well. I'm not sure why they continually feel the need to use the end user as BETA testers.

I'm with you 100% Haarm. It's a shame that Adobe chose to go this ham-fisted route. Thank you for your tireless contributions. I know that I've personally benefited from your wisdom. If Adobe was wise, they would be listening more to you, and less to the accountants.

Apparently Adobe is following Microsoft's decision to put Office 365 in the cloud. I am afraid this may become the model for software of all types as we go forward. So I will still be using Office 2007 and Adobe CS6 until they cart me off to the rest home...

There seems to be a huge number of serious, long-term users of Adobe products who are not boarding their Cloud - and not only in the video field.

On the other hand, new-comers find it a wonderful cheap way into what used to be very expensive software for a start-up.

An obvious reason is the derisory discount that Adobe offer to people who have purchased multiple versions of the software over a period of years.

Adobe's official silence in the face of the mass protests I also see as an insulting attitude to adopt to the customers who have made the company pre-eminent in its field.

When I saw Harm's thread title, my first thought was that Adobe had adopted the position of the market trader - "Buy your cloud now. Not nine shillings and eleven pence a month, but a mere 7/11d!!!"

Passing on the cloud too. I don't do monthly payments. When I can afford something, I pay cash, when I can't I use what I have. That won't change for me.

Apparently Adobe is following Microsoft's decision to put Office 365 in the cloud. I am afraid this may become the model for software of all types as we go forward. So I will still be using Office 2007 and Adobe CS6 until they cart me off to the rest home...

Software companies are going to want to try to do the subscription model which is why it's so important for people to take a stand with Adobe. You'll always will see a few who will say "what can I do. I have to use the software." NO you don't. I'm "switching"

If you want real change - begin it yourself. I don't rent my tools and I don't subscribe to software.
EVER. Doesn't matter if CC is $1 a month or $1000 a month.

Adobe will get $0 from me moving forward. The Cloud has a negative connotation and the subscription model for CC is even worse.

I agree about passing on the cloud. If they changed their policy and gave you ownership of the current version after each year of subscribing I could live with that. I'm actually about to upgrade to CS6 because I need some of the features but after that I plan to look elsewhere if they do not change their rental model.

In fact I'm usually a Sony Vegas user but need Premiere for a big project that Vegas is unable to handle. Premiere has come a long way since the days of 6.5 when it almost drove me insane but they are not the only editor on the block and this CC model feels like extortion to me.

The subscription model is already out of hand.

I was looking at JWplayer the other day and it's now $99 a year for the stripped down version for one site. The premium version is $299 a year for up to 10 sites I think.

The only thing a yearly licencse model will achieve is more people using cracked copies. I think the jwplayer owner will see a big drop in sales as well.

Completely agree with you Harm.

Been doing a little reading, seems this is the coming trend in software. There is already an industry acronym for this (SaaS, Software- as -a -Service) and when something has an acronym, hey, it's there to stay.:)

Apparently it has not been lost on the software companies that Symantec (Norton system protection software) has been raking down annual fees from providing constantly-upgraded software as an on-going contract. This provides a reasonably constant revenue stream, as opposed to launching periodic products and hoping that people will buy them --- essentially, betting the company on your next upgrade.

IT professionals, who like systems and software to be locked down and thus maintainable, view the constantly-changing software model with alarm. Users -- such as those of us who take a dim view of renting our AV software from Adobe --- don't care much for it. But it's a coming thing and we may not have many choices as the idea catches on with other producers.

I really don't get exactly what everyone is upset by? I would understand the frustration mostly when it comes from casual users who probably would not upgrade so often. But from professionals? I just don't get it?

The CS release schedule was to release a new one each year, a full number release every two years, and a dot 5 release in-between. But the only way to get a discount was to upgrade on each release, from CS5 to CS5.5 to CS6. You could not skip an iteration. If I remember correctly, the upgrade discount was in the realm of about $600 or so (this is just for the Premium Suits, not for the Master Collection). Skipping an upgrade did not save you money, as you'd just have to double the cost next year.

Not even including the first year intro discount, at $50 per month X 12 months, your still paying $600.

As a professional, I'd be surprised if you have no intention of upgrading after 2 years. I felt like most people were happy and excited to get the latest and greatest iteration of their product?

I'm not saying I 100% am in love with this new model, but frankly it doesn't seem that bad. In fact, I'm looking forward to the updates and knowing that where ever I sit down to edit a Premiere Pro project, I'll be using the latest version of the software. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm missing something, but I feel like most people are just complaining about the "idea" of CC and less about practical reasons.

I can only speak for myself, but for me it is not so much about price, it is about the principle of not renting.

I own my house, I have no mortgage on it, I own my cars, my cameras, my video stuff, my PC's, I don't lease or rent anything and I'm glad I own everything and do not rent at all. It gives me a kind of security in the sense that I know what lies ahead for me. No surprises.

I offered Adobe a lump-sum payment to give me a CC subscription for life, a multitude of several years of subscriptions, which BTW is $ 82 per month over here, but no reaction at all.

Once you start using CC, there is no turning back. There is no exit strategy and you can no longer access your own copyrighted material if you no longer pay the rent. It is like renting a house. If you no longer pay the rent, you get evicted. If you no longer pay your car lease payments, it gets repo'ed. In all cases, you are in serious trouble.

It took me years to pay off my mortgage, but now I don't have to worry about not meeting a monthly payment, because there is none. I feel I would be crazy to start renting now, to be completely handcuffed by Adobe and having no exit from it. If Adobe were to double or even triple their subscription rates in the future, well that is your bad luck and you have no way to get out.

I do not attach much value to the Marketing claims that the software will be updated much quicker than in the past. Adobe CC still has bugs, dating back from CS5 and CS5.5 that have been postponed to somewhere in the future, but are still not solved. There is no performance improvement in CC over CS6, all that came out in the past weeks were bug releases, similar to CS6.01 or 6.02. Something that should have been discovered during beta testing. CC is IMO a rush job with many bugs still to be solved and with too much emphasis on adding mobile devices instead of improving existing functionality. There are too many bugs in CC to allow me to have a closer look at all the claimed benefits over CS6, because of hangs, or program errors that prevent me to use the program.

I'm not interested in InCopy, Muse, Flash builder and all that stuff. All I need is the video related programs, like AU, AE, PS, PR, AME, EN. And to make matters worse, Adobe has decided, in their infinite wisdom, that DVD and BR is dead, so they pulled Encore, which I use on a daily basis. They also left out all the functional content for CC, that was included with CS6. It was too complicated to add that to the installation, but they added around 2 GB of utter legalese crap in 41 languages to the installation, replicating around 2000 files and directories all over the place.

Bottom line for me:

I'm not impressed by CC, I'm not willing to rent, and I have to see the much touted improvements and their quick availability of updates first. I have to see it, before I believe it, like the blind said.

Harm, thanks for giving your insight. I recognize you from the Adobe forums and I respect your opinion.

I do have a few questions though, in response to a few of your points, if you don't mind continuing the conversation.

Your first sentence seems to confirm what I said at the end of my post. It sounds like the #1 complaint is just against the principal of renting from Adobe, and less that it it's practically bad. I don't love renting either, but isn't it generally more manageable then having to cough up $600 a year for the new release? You might disagree, but my main point is as long as the cost is roughly the same, it is for all practical purposes just about the same thing. This sounds to me just as much a scam as Adobe's previous once a year CS release schedule, which forced me to upgrade in order to stay compatible with everyone else, and frankly that still didn't work since someone was always just ahead or behind me. BTW, this seems to be the model of Avid now as well, right now they're on MC7, so expect MC7.5 shortly.

I actually see this as one of the biggest benefits of the new CC model. From here on out, anyone using premiere will be current (except for those who didn't upgrade, of course.)

Isn't offering Adobe a lump-sum for a life subscription the same thing as buying one of the CS releases and asking for all future updates for free. That's not going to happen.

I can't argue with what you said about the program itself. I haven't had any problems with it, but everything you mentioned are legitimate reasons not to jump on board, imho.

By the way, has anyone confirmed that if your subscriptions ends, you can no longer open up the programs, or that you just simply can't get updates? You do download the program to your computer. Wouldn't something like this fix everyone's woes?

By the way, has anyone confirmed that if your subscriptions ends, you can no longer open up the programs, or that you just simply can't get updates? You do download the program to your computer. Wouldn't something like this fix everyone's woes?

I have used a complimentary subscription from Adobe for CC for several months. It ended a couple of weeks ago. You know of course that there is no backward compatibility between versions, so trying to open any CC application now results first in:

Renew your Subscription and if you don't it ends there.

You simply cannot access your projects and you can't use CS6, because it comes up with the message: The project was saved in a newer version of Adobe Premiere Pro and cannot be opened in this version.

I still have a one year complimentary subscription to CC lying around, but I have not yet redeemed it, since I know there is no going back and I need Encore, which I have under CS6. However, even though my first subscription to CC ended some weeks ago, I left everything installed, with the exception of Acrobat XI, which I removed and replaced with Acrobat X from my MC CS6 and much to my surprise, CC allowed the installation of 14 bug releases for various programs just yesterday.

So, even without a valid subscription, you can install the latest updates, only not use them.

I do agree with you that for a lot of people it may be more convenient to cough up $ 50 a month than $ 600 in one lump sum, but that is not really the issue here. It is the lack of an exit strategy.

With CS6 you have a perpetual license to use it indefinitely. You have paid the price and can use it even in 5 years time, when someone asks you to modify the old project and maybe add some new material. With CC you may get the same request, but by then you will have paid 60 months @ $ 50 or $ 3000 and need to renew your annual subscription for another year, just to be able to handle that request. Now this is under the assumption that Adobe does not increase the monthly rent in price in the next 5 years and we all know that is extremely unlikely.

If the price of a subscription is raised by Adobe, they will inform you. That is all. You can then decide to not renew your subscription, but where does that leave you? Without access to your own material!!! You have no option at all but to grudgingly accept this price increase, even if it were to go from $ 50 to $ 200 per month. Given the respect and consideration of Adobe for their customers they have shown recently, this is one of my major worries.

Now, things would be completely different if there were an exit strategy, something in the tune of:

Your subscription will end by the 1st of mm/yyyy. You can renew your subscription for one year at a monthly rate of $ xx and continue to profit from regular updates of our software, or you can stop your subscription and buy a perpetual license at the current software versions for a sum of $ yy, so you can continue using our software to access your own material.

That issue has been discussed extensively on various fora, most notably of course on the Adobe fora, it has been discussed internally with Adobe management, but while the technical people at Adobe do understand the objections, the management of Adobe acts deaf, dumb and blind.

With the large influx of new Adobe users, as demonstrated by all the noob questions on the Adobe fora, I wonder how many have been lured by the attractive first year pricing, but are in for an unpleasant surprise after this first year or when Adobe raises the rental price. One year from now we will see how many stay on-board and how many will leave.

You have probably seen several interviews with the CEO of Adobe, and he really is the ultimate political marketeer, uttering meaningless phrases but saying nothing and obfuscating all issues raised with vague words that mean absolutely nothing. The track record of Adobe has been severely damaged by recent actions, without considerations for their client base. Examples, one year release cycles, the abolition of perpetual licenses, the scrapping of Encore, the lack of backward compatibility to CS6, the lackluster attention to bug releases, the number of deferrals of bugs, etc.

I'm very disappointed in the direction Adobe is taking now, the complete disregard of client wishes. I do hope they will improve, but am not very optimistic. Maybe Edius or Avid will turn out to be better options.

I feel I would be crazy to start renting now, to be completely handcuffed by Adobe and having no exit from it.

You'll have the same 'exit' as you have now, Harm. You can always export to XML, EDLs or AAF hoping for the worst. In fact, Adobe Premiere Pro gives you the greatest export options, second to none. Try comparing that to an Avid or FCP-X or Smoke.


I do not attach much value to the Marketing claims that the software will be updated much quicker than in the past. Adobe CC still has bugs, dating back from CS5 and CS5.5 that have been postponed to somewhere in the future, but are still not solved.

I have found Premiere Pro and AE have frequent updates, too frequent in my opinion. The bugs don't stop me from working, and every software has bugs.

Except for FCP-X (I don't know about Edius), every software has 'baggage' from the old days. Avid being the worst culprit.


There is no performance improvement in CC over CS6

OpenCL is one improvement for AMD GPU users. Other than that, there hasn't been any revolutionary hardware improvement either, nor a software improvement from other developers - it would seem most of the focus is on the smartphone and table sector, with cries of the death of the PC sounding everywhere.

Regarding program errors or hangs, I don't see the same problem, though our usage scenario and workflow might be different.

Adobe has decided, in their infinite wisdom, that DVD and BR is dead, so they pulled Encore, which I use on a daily basis.

I agree with you here. It was a stupid decision to remove Encore. They could have at least 'let it be'. However, being a major developer with a worldwide market, the numbers may have warranted the call. Maybe Adobe is trying to tell us something, just like Red did when the Red One was launched.

You'll have the same 'exit' as you have now, Harm. You can always export to XML, EDLs or AAF hoping for the worst. In fact, Adobe Premiere Pro gives you the greatest export options, second to none. Try comparing that to an Avid or FCP-X or Smoke.

Except that does not work for me with the plug-ins I use and second it bypasses several effects that were changed between CS6 and CC, so any export is severely hampered. Not to mention that several of these plug-ins need to be bought again for CC use, adding to the tab, like the Minnetonka Surcode plug-in at $ 100.

I have found Premiere Pro and AE have frequent updates, too frequent in my opinion. The bugs don't stop me from working, and every software has bugs.

That is correct, but the only thing that made an appearance are bugs fixes, that were deferred to a later date, that should have been fixed in the beta stage. That is why I call CC a RR, not a Rolls Royce, but a Rush Release that did not work to start with. I have never been able to properly test one of our benchmark time-lines until the first bug release of CC, because every version prior to that, including the first official release of CC was broken. I still have plain program halted errors on bugs that exist since CS5.5 that have been deferred indefinitely. Not exactly a trust inspiring situation I think.

I still see the same caching problems that were introduced with CS6 that were not around in CS5 or CS5.5 that were never solved. I still see the anomalies between Direct Export and AME, that triple export times, etc.

As to the baggage included in the installation, that is something I complained about since CS5 and I have offered a solution in terms of a common depository for all the legalese documents and EULA's limited to only the relevant languages like OS, keyboard, location and Adobe version languages. As - for example - a US citizen, located in the US, using Windows US and the US/English version of CC, what the f*ck should I do with EULA's in Afghan, Arabic, Armenian, Bulgarian, Chinese, Danish, Dutch, Finnish, French, German, Greek, Hungarian, Korean, Latvian, Norwegian, Rumanian, Russian, Swedish, Taiwanese, Turkish, etc. that are replicated for each and every CC application, 22 by my count?

Except that does not work for me with the plug-ins I use and second it bypasses several effects that were changed between CS6 and CC, so any export is severely hampered. Not to mention that several of these plug-ins need to be bought again for CC use, adding to the tab, like the Minnetonka Surcode plug-in at $ 100.

Even without third-party plug-ins the effects are hardly ported over. Even if they are, they're 99% not the same algorithm. Compared to an Avid exit strategy, Adobe looks like a walk in the park!


I still see the same caching problems that were introduced with CS6 that were not around in CS5 or CS5.5 that were never solved. I still see the anomalies between Direct Export and AME, that triple export times, etc.

I've heard somewhere that Adobe has increased the importance of AME to 'force' everyone to adopt it. I could be wrong, but it looks like it has more codecs and better features. Are the triple export times on AME or direct export? Also, is the direct export from Premiere Pro or AE or Speedgrade?

See Latest News (http://ppbm7.com/index.php/news) where it is spelled out.

It's only for MPEG-2 DVD, a dying standard - maybe they knew they were going to kill off Encore when they coded CS6.

I couldn't find the AME vs Direct comparison. And I am not authorized to view the results.

You have to register and login to view the results. It is free. You don't need a subscription yet. The severe limitations of the caching used relate to MPEG2-DVD and Disk I/O equally. It doesn't show in the H.264-BR test, because the export file size is too small to notice the disk I/O limitations and there is no CUDA support for frame blending and rescaling like the MPEG test, so it is a pure CPU test. I could try to modify the H.264-BR test to see if the same bug plagues this time-line with nested sequences of which one is reversed and only shows as black screen as it does in the MPEG test

I have used a complimentary subscription from Adobe for CC for several months. It ended a couple of weeks ago. You know of course that there is no backward compatibility between versions, so trying to open any CC application now results first in:

Renew your Subscription and if you don't it ends there.

You simply cannot access your projects and you can't use CS6, because it comes up with the message: The project was saved in a newer version of Adobe Premiere Pro and cannot be opened in this version.

I still have a one year complimentary subscription to CC lying around, but I have not yet redeemed it, since I know there is no going back and I need Encore, which I have under CS6. However, even though my first subscription to CC ended some weeks ago, I left everything installed, with the exception of Acrobat XI, which I removed and replaced with Acrobat X from my MC CS6 and much to my surprise, CC allowed the installation of 14 bug releases for various programs just yesterday.

So, even without a valid subscription, you can install the latest updates, only not use them.

I do agree with you that for a lot of people it may be more convenient to cough up $ 50 a month than $ 600 in one lump sum, but that is not really the issue here. It is the lack of an exit strategy.

With CS6 you have a perpetual license to use it indefinitely. You have paid the price and can use it even in 5 years time, when someone asks you to modify the old project and maybe add some new material. With CC you may get the same request, but by then you will have paid 60 months @ $ 50 or $ 3000 and need to renew your annual subscription for another year, just to be able to handle that request. Now this is under the assumption that Adobe does not increase the monthly rent in price in the next 5 years and we all know that is extremely unlikely.

If the price of a subscription is raised by Adobe, they will inform you. That is all. You can then decide to not renew your subscription, but where does that leave you? Without access to your own material!!! You have no option at all but to grudgingly accept this price increase, even if it were to go from $ 50 to $ 200 per month. Given the respect and consideration of Adobe for their customers they have shown recently, this is one of my major worries.

Now, things would be completely different if there were an exit strategy, something in the tune of:

Your subscription will end by the 1st of mm/yyyy. You can renew your subscription for one year at a monthly rate of $ xx and continue to profit from regular updates of our software, or you can stop your subscription and buy a perpetual license at the current software versions for a sum of $ yy, so you can continue using our software to access your own material.

That issue has been discussed extensively on various fora, most notably of course on the Adobe fora, it has been discussed internally with Adobe management, but while the technical people at Adobe do understand the objections, the management of Adobe acts deaf, dumb and blind.

With the large influx of new Adobe users, as demonstrated by all the noob questions on the Adobe fora, I wonder how many have been lured by the attractive first year pricing, but are in for an unpleasant surprise after this first year or when Adobe raises the rental price. One year from now we will see how many stay on-board and how many will leave.

You have probably seen several interviews with the CEO of Adobe, and he really is the ultimate political marketeer, uttering meaningless phrases but saying nothing and obfuscating all issues raised with vague words that mean absolutely nothing. The track record of Adobe has been severely damaged by recent actions, without considerations for their client base. Examples, one year release cycles, the abolition of perpetual licenses, the scrapping of Encore, the lack of backward compatibility to CS6, the lackluster attention to bug releases, the number of deferrals of bugs, etc.

I'm very disappointed in the direction Adobe is taking now, the complete disregard of client wishes. I do hope they will improve, but am not very optimistic. Maybe Edius or Avid will turn out to be better options.

Harm,
this post has summed it up perfectly!!! It could have not been said any better!!
I can't believe the posts when people mention there is an exit strategy through different export options. That always makes me laugh. They must not have very complex projects! There are so many variables that don't come through with those export options!

Harm,
this post has summed it up perfectly!!! It could have not been said any better!!
I can't believe the posts when people mention there is an exit strategy through different export options. That always makes me laugh. They must not have very complex projects! There are so many variables that don't come through with those export options!And if they don't do all the exporting prior to their subscription expiring they can't run the program to open their projects in order to DO the export.

The discrepancy between direct export and AME stems mostly from AME not being able to (yet?) use GPU to accelerate the export.

I think the issue is going to be how the business model affects the whole of your business.

Where it's going to suck is when everybody starts using the model.

I'm glad to have adobe CS6 but don't really use it enough to justify $50 bucks a month.

Then when you add that to the future monthly fees from all other software, that nut gets a lot bigger than $50 bucks a month, regardless of how much you use each individual software such as Office 365.

Jwplayer is a perfect example. Look at the price difference from 1 site to 10 sites. So that means people like me who have just 2 sites pay $299 per year. That gap from 1 site to 10 sites is deliberate.

So all these monthly charges combined will add up. And there's no surge in our daily rates to justify that.

We should reject this model like the plague.

JW Player Pricing | Feature Matrix | Compare Editions | LongTail Video (http://www.longtailvideo.com/jw-player/pricing/)

If you only need to use cc say a couple of months lets say only in May and June for some special event. Do I only have to pay $100

If you only need to use it for a month or two, you'd be best to choose a monthly subscription, rather than an annual commitment. For month-to-month, it is about $75 US:

Membership plans: Pricing and subscriptions | Adobe Creative Cloud (http://www.adobe.com/products/creativecloud/buying-guide.html)

Not sure what it would be in Scotland, but probably proportional monthly vs annual.