What are your thoughts on skipping DVD, Blu-ray, or Thumb Drive delivery and only delivering files online?

Vimeo allows 5GBs per week. I can upload an hour and a half documentary and at 5 GBs the compression still looks good (at least good enough for a documentary) in my opinion. It takes around 10 hours to upload a 5 GB file on my computer with my Internet connection, which is certainly manageable (I can upload overnight, plus the computer I use to upload is separate from the one I use to edit). You can also upgrade your Vimeo account to Pro to get more upload space, or use services such as DropBox. I upload the longer versions to Vimeo as password protected files, which is also nice because since it's online it makes it easier for the client to share it with their family and friends (instead of them having to mail out DVDs).

The future seems to be heading in the direction of forgoing optical discs in favor of just files; consider Netflix downloads, for instance. DVDs and Blu-rays, with the additional encoding time, DVD cover creation, physical materials that you have to regularly buy, regular trips to the post office, etc., are simply a pain. Digital files are also more future proof.

Now add to this (at least in Florida, where I am) that you have to charge sales tax on the entire price of the wedding video if you deliver tangible goods (i.e., DVDs), but if you deliver everything online with no physical goods (a thumb drive with a file on it would of course count as a tangible item), then you don't have to charge sales tax. So online delivery saves the client money.

I think what I'll do is offer just the online file in my base package, and make DVDs/Blu-rays an add-on. That makes me wonder, though, if delivery is not reliant on tangible items being delivered, then if I charge for the DVD/Blu-ray add-ons, would I have to charge sales tax on just the add-on price, or the price of the entire wedding video?

That doesn't sound right. You don't have to pay taxes if you don't deliver a tangible product? I'm sure lawyers, doctors, dentists, consultants, etc pay taxes even if they don't have a product. In your case, I think the service you provided to capture and edit weddings is taxable. It doesn't make sense to not charge sales tax to the client when you have to pay for it.

It varies in some states, but that is my understanding of it. The idea is that you are offering a service, and not selling a product. Contractors, such as plumbers and pool men also do not need to charge sales tax on the service. And no, I don't believe lawyers, doctors, dentists, etc., typically do charge sales tax (again, it varies by state). Also consider when you hire an independent contractor to help you shoot a wedding, do they have to charge you sales tax? No, because they are not selling a product to you, but are offering their services.

Here are a couple sources I just Googled...

The 7 Common Tax Mistakes Made By Photographers (http://blog.photoshelter.com/2010/03/the-7-common-tax-mistakes-made-by-photographers/)

"if you are a photographer and you don’t give them a tangible product, and you just FTP all of the photos that you take for a wedding directly to the client, you’re not actually turning anything tangible over to them so you might not technically have to pay sales tax on the services that you provided.”

“When it’s photography as a service, where you are shooting for somebody else and you hand over just your data, you’re kind of like a wholesaler at that point, so you don’t need to be collecting tax.”"

Photo Attorney: Sales Tax for Photographers (http://www.photoattorney.com/2006/06/sales-tax-for-photographers.html)

From the second link,..."California photographers who deliver images electronically do not have to collect sales tax from their clients. In some other states, you must collect sales tax for all photography services, including materials, services, and fees."

Hi Eric

Have you perhaps talked to brides about their feelings regarding a non tangible product?? What do brides use to watch their wedding ..a laptop, media player into the TV ...my issues would be if she uses a crummy little laptop your audio will not sound nearly as good if it was played thru a TV!!

I was thinking at one stage of supplying couples with a media player so they were "forced" to watch the wedding in a minimum of 1280x720 rather than SD but what happens when Grandma want's to see her grand daughter's wedding and all she has is an old DVD player and a CRT TV!!

Commercial downloads now over here offer DVD, BD, Digital download and Ultra Violet ??? What's Ultra Violet ...I'm losing the technology race I think!!

Chris

No, I haven't talked to brides on the matter. Headphones or external speakers (which most people own at least one of) would solve poor laptop speakers, and many people have PCs as well. As far as I know, there aren't many people (at least in my area) who are young enough to be getting married and don't own a computer, but do own a DVD player and a TV.

I also said I'd still be giving them the option for a DVD/Blu-ray, but just not to include it in the base package. So if all they do have is an old computer that won't handle the files (most computers within the last 5 years will handle the files fine), then they could still get a DVD or Blu-ray.

Also, most newer TVs will play computer files, such as off of a thumb drive, or by accessing the Internet and playing it right off of Vimeo. Funny to consider, but instead of offering a Blu-ray player you could for not for not a whole lot more offer them a cheap 1080p HD TV (like this, for example: Toshiba 23L1350U 23" Class 1080p LED TV 23L1350U B&H Photo) which has a thumb drive port for the HD video file.

Thanks Eric

I love the idea but that's me so that's why I asked what bride's would think ..I can see them going for extra option of a digital download or view (at present I do give them a hosted video around 15 minutes, but that's just the ceremony) but they might want it as just an option rather than the final product and may still expect a DVD set as the primary "product" which kills your non-tangible aspect.

I was thinking (a while back actually) of not a BD player included in the package but just a media player with the video on a thumb drive all ready to go so they could still take it to grandma's house and plug in composite cables to play the files. However a pure digital supply only certainly would be easy!!

I wonder if anyone else here does a digital copy only with no hard copy at all??? The idea certainly has merit from our side but I'm still concerned that the bride might want a product in her hot little hands even if it's in SD!!

Chris

I have had one couple this year that only wanted a digital delivery, they didn't care about dvd or blu-ray and had a server with backup and a mediacentre to view and/or listen their mediafiles. I don't deliver through download as my internet upload speed is too slow + here we have a limit on monthly datatraffic meaning you pay extra per gb if you go over that limit.

I would like to deliver in this way though, just put the finished edit on a server, have the client view it at their home through streaming and then let them pay the remainder they owe my true paypal and get a downloadlink to download their wedding. That would save me quite some time but I think it will take years before something like this would be common practice.

I have had one couple this year that only wanted a digital delivery, they didn't care about dvd or blu-ray and had a server with backup and a mediacentre to view and/or listen their mediafiles. I don't deliver through download as my internet upload speed is too slow + here we have a limit on monthly datatraffic meaning you pay extra per gb if you go over that limit.

I would like to deliver in this way though, just put the finished edit on a server, have the client view it at their home through streaming and then let them pay the remainder they owe my true paypal and get a downloadlink to download their wedding. That would save me quite some time but I think it will take years before something like this would be common practice.

Hit the nail on the head ...

A fraction of the population want their wedding film this way.

I would still deliver it on a disc ... how difficult is it to just burn the digital .mp4 file or what ever onto a BDR and post it to them.

I always give them a digital file at it's highest quality but that doesn't fit on a dvd so I should be using a br disc but almost nobody has a blu-ray reader in their laptop, then I can only use a usb stick. It's not that it's difficult, it would only be a lot easier to put it on a server and have them download it, just the way you buy software there days, you pay through paypal, get a link instantly and download.

I have many dvdboxes with movies that take up a lot of space, just the fact that that same thing could fit on a single harddisc and that I could scroll through my collection of movies on screen would be much more convenient.

[QUOTE=Eric Coughlin;1799154]It varies in some states, but that is my understanding of it. The idea is that you are offering a service, and not selling a product. Contractors, such as plumbers and pool men also do not need to charge sales tax on the service. And no, I don't believe lawyers, doctors, dentists, etc., typically do charge sales tax (again, it varies by state). Also consider when you hire an independent contractor to help you shoot a wedding, do they have to charge you sales tax? No, because they are not selling a product to you, but are offering their services.

Hi Eric. I don't do many weddings, mostly corporate clients, but the concept is the same. It's confusing in Florida regarding when to charge sales tax, and quoting California sources if you get called in by the State of Florida won't help you.

After MUCH investigation, here's what I do. When you are delivering a product, there's tax. That means when you work as a PRODUCER, there's tax. I found links on the state site somewhere (under either Photographers or IT Services) that said an electronic product is a still a tangible product. (Plus you can copyright it. You can patent a process or service). It's the same thing as electronic money still being real money. And when you think about it, it makes sense. Not any different than buying an EBook from a vendor that has a physical storefront in Florida.

When I work as a shooter, for another company, (and usually there's a 1099 form involved), then I only need worry about federal taxes.

So the State of Florida views an electronic product as a real (tangible) product that you've sold just like the electronic money you've been paid is real money. Now I may be wrong, but that's the conclusion I reached, and my attorney agreed. When I work as a PRODUCER, then there's SALES TAX. When I work as a SHOOTER, then there's NO sales tax (so far).

That's one reason I like it when I have a client that's a registered non-profit organization.

The idea of supplying a downloadable video to the couple is attractive initially to the producer of the video, but I really can't see any great advantage to the couple and can see many disadvantages.

From my point of view as a producer, just about all of my clients want dvd delivery, which is straight forward to do and very quick to make multiple copies if required. The amount of time it would take me to upload 90 mins of HD quality to a server doesn't bare thinking about. That of course is even assuming that there are no errors uploading. I have only ever had one request for a Bluray and have also supplied a couple of videos on USB stick.

From a client point of view, I can understand that some may have an internet connection capable of downloading 90 mins of HD video, but I can't see in the foreseeable future that many are going to want to pay the cost of a wedding video, but not having a hard copy that they own. I certainly wouldn't pay hundreds or thousands of pounds out and then rely on a download with all the variables to view it. The other point of course is that many different family and friends want to view the video but may well not have the internet speed or facility to view, and indeed may have no internet at all.

Roger

I still expect to be delivering dvd's in the years to come but online distribution is the future, more people are starting to download movies and music and view/listen to it on their laptop, smartphone etc. Music is also something that less people get a real cd, they just download one song or a album and pay online. Downloading big files won't be a issue in the near future either, Belgium is one of the fewer countries in EU that still apply limitations but that will change as well, my download speed f.i. has doubled the past year without me paying a premium for that. It is just a matter of (longer) time before we see dvd, blu-ray is a medium that is not intended to last, it's much easier to get it just by clicking a button.

You could even offer a discount for clients that only want a download version of their wedding, that might get things started for people that have embraced future technology. Like with that one cleint I have this year, no dvd, no blu-ray, just some mp4 files.

As someone who delivers by way of digital all the time, it's a godsend and a headache to boot.

You can never tell what a persons internet speed is. You don't know if they are behind prohibitive firewalss etc.

There is a certain group that it works like a charm for, and another group that needs constant tech support for issues you can't resolve.

I have absolutely no problem with downloading films, music etc especially on a pay to view basis. I also sometimes supply commercial work to customers as downloadable files. A the moment, I am working on a series of short video promotions for a multi-national science company, all of which will be supplied as downloadable files.

The doubt for me though lies in the idea of people entrusting their high cost purchase of a wedding production to remote servers, over which they have no real control. I can though see it as an additional service to the hard copy for family and friend to be able to view on line from anywhere, if they have the facility. As Noa said, supplying mp4 files on a ssd or disc is a viable delivery form that gives the client their own personally held copy which in my opinion will always be essential.

Roger

I love this conversation here is my two cents worth:

I have delivered on Betacam, Betacam SP, Betamax, VHS, S-VHS, Hi-8, DV, DVCAM, video cd, DVD, BR, Flash Video, .wmv, .mpg, Quick Time, Silverlight, and probably several others I am forgetting. The point is that it is not only ever changing, but it was never just one format at a time.

As a creative product producer we must remain ahead of the technological abilities of our clients from the most advanced user to those that can barely check e-mail (I have had some that can’t). My clients dictate to me what the delivery medium will be, not the other way around.

I don’t shoot weddings, I deliver to business oriented clients but it is not that much different. I suggest that you consider it goes far beyond the bride. Even within the same household. The young bride may only want to see her video on the new Blu ray player she got as a wedding gift, her mom and dad can only see it on DVD, and her sister won’t bother watching it at all unless she can see it on her I-Pad. Add in a link you can e-mail and anyone can see it via the web and now pretty much everyone is happy. I am not telling you guys anything new, we all live it. My point is, it was not, is not, and never will be, a singular format process. You will always need to offer more than one format for the finished product.

I utilize FTP to deliver a lot of lo-res client proofs as we go back and forth in the edit process. As simple as that is, I also use Send Space for some of my clients because they find FTP confusing and like a one link process. I have also done shoots where we live stream video from the set back to a clients office while they are on speaker phone with us, to provide remote direction while we are shooting. So again, it is my role to meet their needs, be it simple or advanced, and to make it as simple for them as I can, in every case.

Downloadable delivery will become more commonplace for all of us. I think we are a very long way from it being the only way. Especially on the home consumer side of things. But....As I write this my 15 year old son is in his room administrating a gaming server fed by his friends from his You Tube channel!!! It is a wide range of users out there!

Chris, you have probably read at least a hundred of my posts and vise-a-versa so I don’t think I will offend you with this. Deliver your content and forget about what process they are viewing it with. You do good work, the DVDs you are delivering now are being watched on lap tops with crappy speakers. Not all of your clients are putting your DVDs in dedicated players. That is beyond your control. Let it go.

Steve

Hi Steve

Thanks ! I'm well aware of the fact that delivering on optical disk doesn't mean they will play it on the newest and shiniest DVD player and HD TV ... I think as long as you supply your product in a format that suits the client..they will be happy . I have seen clients watch a demo disk on a CRT TV so old that it barely had colour ...I was horrified but they were over the moon and booked me.

DVD delivery might be a bit antiquated but it does have advantages like being a physical and tangible product plus it even gives you a bit of advertising lying on the bookcase gathering dust.

Chris

I love this conversation here is my two cents worth:

I have delivered on Betacam, Betacam SP, Betamax, VHS, S-VHS, Hi-8, DV, DVCAM, video cd, DVD, BR, Flash Video, .wmv, .mpg, Quick Time, Silverlight, and probably several others I am forgetting. The point is that it is not only ever changing, but it was never just one format at a time.

As a creative product producer we must remain ahead of the technological abilities of our clients from the most advanced user to those that can barely check e-mail (I have had some that can’t). My clients dictate to me what the delivery medium will be, not the other way around.

I don’t shoot weddings, I deliver to business oriented clients but it is not that much different. I suggest that you consider it goes far beyond the bride. Even within the same household. The young bride may only want to see her video on the new Blu ray player she got as a wedding gift, her mom and dad can only see it on DVD, and her sister won’t bother watching it at all unless she can see it on her I-Pad. Add in a link you can e-mail and anyone can see it via the web and now pretty much everyone is happy. I am not telling you guys anything new, we all live it. My point is, it was not, is not, and never will be, a singular format process. You will always need to offer more than one format for the finished product.

I utilize FTP to deliver a lot of lo-res client proofs as we go back and forth in the edit process. As simple as that is, I also use Send Space for some of my clients because they find FTP confusing and like a one link process. I have also done shoots where we live stream video from the set back to a clients office while they are on speaker phone with us, to provide remote direction while we are shooting. So again, it is my role to meet their needs, be it simple or advanced, and to make it as simple for them as I can, in every case.

Downloadable delivery will become more commonplace for all of us. I think we are a very long way from it being the only way. Especially on the home consumer side of things. But....As I write this my 15 year old son is in his room administrating a gaming server fed by his friends from his You Tube channel!!! It is a wide range of users out there!

Chris, you have probably read at least a hundred of my posts and vise-a-versa so I don’t think I will offend you with this. Deliver your content and forget about what process they are viewing it with. You do good work, the DVDs you are delivering now are being watched on lap tops with crappy speakers. Not all of your clients are putting your DVDs in dedicated players. That is beyond your control. Let it go.

Steve

+ for this one. I agree with all of the above. I don't shoot weddings either. Most of my clients take delivery by way of the web, meaning web ready files they can load on their own servers. Being as though they pay a lot for the video, I have as of late sent along a bluray as well. That way they really see what they are paying for. The quality of the disc far exceeds the web friendly format.

As Al says 'The quality of the disc far exceeds the web friendly format'. As producers we are always striving for the best quality that we can get for the end product, but although download speeds are steadily increasing for many people, they will never globally match the quality that we will be able to produce for our final product. So to best present our work, we will always want to offer private clients our best end product in my opinion.

Another reason that I don't think wedding clients will ever want online only, is because having paid a premium price, they will want to own it. If it is online only, they will always be totally reliant on the remote servers where it is stored. That means that there are many scenarios which may stop it being accessible. One of the weddings I delivered recently, was going to be viewed by the Bride and all her girlfriends at a wedding video party she had arranged. Picture the scene:- they are all sitting around glass in hand excitedly waiting for the opening scene of the day, when up pops a message on the screen - SORRY FOR ANY INCONVENIENCE! BUT OUR SERVERS ARE CURRENTLY SHUT DOWN FOR MAINTENANCE, PLEASE TRY AGAIN LATER.

If it is in your hand, you have control, so as far as the heading of this thread is concerned, for wedding clients, I can only see online files as a backup and just another way to view.

Roger

but although download speeds are steadily increasing for many people, they will never globally match the quality that we will be able to produce for our final product.

It can, if you deliver them a equally high bitrate file as what's on the blu-ray disc, the only issue is size as we are talking about 15-20gb file, but that might be a problem for some now it won't be in the future.

It can, if you deliver them a equally high bitrate file as what's on the blu-ray disc, the only issue is size as we are talking about 15-20gb file, but that might be a problem for some now it won't be in the future.

I wouldn't disagree, that it is possible to match blu-ray quality with download, but what is a problem, even allowing for the file size, is that most people don't have a broadband system fast enough or a high enough allowance. We are of course already producing video that is higher quality than blu-ray and can supply hard copy on cards and sticks that are better than BRD. Quality will continue to increase as 4k eventually becomes the norm, and download speeds will always lag far behind for most people, so are we going to want to settle for lower quality just for download? Probably not, otherwise we might as well all save some money and use lower quality cameras and editing equipment in the first place.

Roger

but what is a problem, even allowing for the file size, is that most people don't have a broadband system fast enough or a high enough allowance.

Now it is, yes but that won't continue to be. Even with my current limited account I can download at a rate of 300mb/minute and I have a standard package. we won't get rid of dvd's and bluray the next years but I'm sure internet delivery will continue to play a more dominant role every year.

I wouldn't be too quick to get away from delivering physical media. At least the client has something they can hold & value. It was always the problem with the wedding video as compared to the gorgeous leather bound album that the photographer could deliver. Nowadays we have some nice packaging for DVD/Blu-ray discs instead of those crappy plastic Amaray cases & now similar packaging is also available for USB thumb drives.

It can, if you deliver them a equally high bitrate file as what's on the blu-ray disc, the only issue is size as we are talking about 15-20gb file, but that might be a problem for some now it won't be in the future.


In the U.S. it's going to be a problem for a long time to come. The carriers are making boatloads of money with this slow crap and no incentive to move speeds in a timely manner. It's a shame for a developed nation to have such slow service.

Gentelmen,
Great conversation. Marketing 101 has always taught “put yourself in the mind of the customer”. In our world of small time video production some guys error big time in this area. In the world of broadcast and motion pictures many job roles are separated as “creative” or “technical” so one can specialize and do what he does best. By small time I am referring to those of us that must operate as a one man band or small crew and fulfill all roles. As video producers we sell a creative product we create through technical means. We must be both a “creative” and a “technician”. Which one are you?

I learned many years ago the client is hiring the creative. They frankly do not give a sh** about your latest 4K camera purchase, bandwidth, megabytes, resolution, or technical prowess. They usually don’t even want to hear about how you are going to achieve the end result they are going to pay you to create. As technicians we know data is real, it is a tangible reality that must be created, stored, served, and reassembled at their will on their computer screen. The average computer user does not understand that the way we do. They not only do not understand it they do not want to understand it. They want it to work like the radio in their car, turn it on and it works, you get what you want, period. What they see on the internet is not real to them, it is a screen they look at and stuff just appears.

Some video guys are so impressed by the equipment they worked hard for they try to sell their product by touting the technology. My opinion says the bride does not care if you shoot with an Arri Alexa or a Sony handycam. She wants something beautiful and real. So dress up what you do and make it real for her. Nigel hit it on the head. A photographer sits down and lets her flip through the pages of an expensive leather bound portfolio. So maybe you guys can do something similar. When you meet with her for the presentation dress up your technology the best you can. Instead of opening your laptop and clicking on your preloaded demo reel, pull the well packaged DVD out of your briefcase and use it. Show her in real world terms she can touch what she will get. Then you can move on to the online demo of what you offer how she can show her stuff off via e-mail and the magical computer screen. Because you are a technological wizard. She does not care how you do it or how many lines of resolution there is. Don’t try to explain it, just impress her and keep it real in her world, not yours.

Steve

Sorry guys. No one has ever accused me of being succinct. My posts get carried away, just like my opinions!

Gentelmen,
Great conversation. Marketing 101 has always taught “put yourself in the mind of the customer”. In our world of small time video production some guys error big time in this area. In the world of broadcast and motion pictures many job roles are separated as “creative” or “technical” so one can specialize and do what he does best. By small time I am referring to those of us that must operate as a one man band or small crew and fulfill all roles. As video producers we sell a creative product we create through technical means. We must be both a “creative” and a “technician”. Which one are you?

I learned many years ago the client is hiring the creative. They frankly do not give a sh** about your latest 4K camera purchase, bandwidth, megabytes, resolution, or technical prowess. They usually don’t even want to hear about how you are going to achieve the end result they are going to pay you to create. As technicians we know data is real, it is a tangible reality that must be created, stored, served, and reassembled at their will on their computer screen. The average computer user does not understand that the way we do. They not only do not understand it they do not want to understand it. They want it to work like the radio in their car, turn it on and it works, you get what you want, period. What they see on the internet is not real to them, it is a screen they look at and stuff just appears.

Some video guys are so impressed by the equipment they worked hard for they try to sell their product by touting the technology. My opinion says the bride does not care if you shoot with an Arri Alexa or a Sony handycam. She wants something beautiful and real. So dress up what you do and make it real for her. Nigel hit it on the head. A photographer sits down and lets her flip through the pages of an expensive leather bound portfolio. So maybe you guys can do something similar. When you meet with her for the presentation dress up your technology the best you can. Instead of opening your laptop and clicking on your preloaded demo reel, pull the well packaged DVD out of your briefcase and use it. Show her in real world terms she can touch what she will get. Then you can move on to the online demo of what you offer how she can show her stuff off via e-mail and the magical computer screen. Because you are a technological wizard. She does not care how you do it or how many lines of resolution there is. Don’t try to explain it, just impress her and keep it real in her world, not yours.

Steve

Sorry guys. No one has ever accused me of being succinct. My posts get carried away, just like my opinions!

Steve couldn't agree more with what you said.

Brides/grooms simply don't care. Out of 100% of the market, may be 10-15% care about the technical/technological aspect (if that!)

Everyone else just wants a working product that they can place into their DVD player, which looks good and works flawlessly ... that means they can pass the disc to their uncle, aunt, grandparents without telling them they need anything other than a DVD player.

By all means, offer all the bells and whistles as add-ons i.e. bluray, digital files, usbs, cloud storage. But stick to the basics which is to make a creative edit, with good music & emotion, showing the day as it unfolded all placed on a DVD that looks presentable on the outside and inside, which works perfectly. I think if you can do that, you will always be in business.

Hi Eric. I don't do many weddings, mostly corporate clients, but the concept is the same. It's confusing in Florida regarding when to charge sales tax, and quoting California sources if you get called in by the State of Florida won't help you.

After MUCH investigation, here's what I do. When you are delivering a product, there's tax. That means when you work as a PRODUCER, there's tax. I found links on the state site somewhere (under either Photographers or IT Services) that said an electronic product is a still a tangible product. (Plus you can copyright it. You can patent a process or service). It's the same thing as electronic money still being real money. And when you think about it, it makes sense. Not any different than buying an EBook from a vendor that has a physical storefront in Florida.

When I work as a shooter, for another company, (and usually there's a 1099 form involved), then I only need worry about federal taxes.

So the State of Florida views an electronic product as a real (tangible) product that you've sold just like the electronic money you've been paid is real money. Now I may be wrong, but that's the conclusion I reached, and my attorney agreed. When I work as a PRODUCER, then there's SALES TAX. When I work as a SHOOTER, then there's NO sales tax (so far).
I was quoting a California tax just to show that it varies by state. I've previously researched Florida sales taxes laws on the matter and came to the conclusion based on what I read on the Internet as well as being told by an accountant and a photographer I work with.

But to further confirm my beliefs on the matter, upon reading your post I e-mailed a Tax Specialist at the Florida Department of Revenue. Here is our e-mail exchange...

E-mail Title: Sales Tax on Intangible Items
Hi,

I have a question on sales tax. I own a video production company. If I perform a service of filming and editing a video, and then send the finished file to the client by uploading it online and having them download the file, such that there is no tangible product that I deliver (such as DVDs, Blu-rays, or a thumb drive), then is that service taxable here in Florida?

-Eric


Response...

Mr. Coughlin,
Yes, you would be correct. Since there isn't anything of a Tangible nature exchanged, there would be No Sales Tax on such a transaction as you have described.

Raymond D Minges
Tax Specialist I
(727)-524-4392
Florida Department of Revenue
Clearwater Service Center

Hi Eric. Thanks for your post! It directly contradicts information I was given, but yours is more recent. Here's an additional official document from the State Website further corroborating your post:

https://revenuelaw.state.fl.us/LawLibraryDocuments/2011/01/TAA-103437_SUT%20TAA3%2011A-002.pdf#search=%2211A-002%22

However, I did find a warning that if we are given incorrect information, even by someone from the DOR, we are still liable, just like if someone from the IRS gives us incorrect information for our income taxes.

I think I'll contact the Lakeland Tax office and see if I can get documentation like yours, with my name on it. At least that will conclusively demonstrate a good faith effort to avoid tax evasion.

There are many threads online, both here and on the COW giving conflicting information. And I'd swear I remember being shown a document just like yours stating the exact opposite of yours.

Sheesh, what a mess.

If you can legally avoid collect sales tax, whereas your competitors have to, this may give you a competitive advantage. However, the analogy to Netflix is a little flawed. You are comparing a 99 cent movie to a Wedding Video. What happens when the Bride's computer crashes AND you are no longer in business?

I'm coming in a bit late on this but in my market I am about to phase out DVDs and just go with Blu-rays as my deliverable. Sure, I have online as well but only the highlights. My weddings are usually between 1 hour and ninety minutes and without being able to skip chapters that's too long in my opinion. In time online will be the way to go but not yet.

I shoot HD, edit HD and deliver HD. The time it takes to down convert to DVD is not worth it and I am not happy with the results. At under $100 it is more cost effective to buy them a BD player. Better than a media file player, Chris, as Granny will get confused. The BD player looks the same as her old dvd player and plays her old disks the same way. As a side note, taking a player and plugging it in with composite leads will not result in an HD picture. AS you all know HD requires HDMI or at least component.

If we offer a premium product it should be tangible, high quality packaging and (preferably) HD. It also should be simple to use! A properly authored BD fits this - not an MP4 file on a BD data disk. The customer will assume it is a blu-ray movie and call you when it doesn't play.

My last wedding couple wanted all four copies as blu-ray. I ended up at their house as they said none of them worked. I took around another player just in case but when I got there the first disk she put in worked, I suspect because her husband put the TV onto the correct input. What I noticed was their very nice 55" Sony TV was displaying a decidedly standard def picture.Turns out they only had a composite connection from the Blu-ray player.

I said, "You do realize it's not HD hooked up this way?"
The reply, "Yeah, but we're using the HDMI cable on the TV in the other room".

No wonder many people say they can't see the difference between SD & HD - they may not have seen HD!

As Steven said earlier, there will always be many formats but it is our job to make our product look as good as possible while keeping the technology transparent to the client.

Sorry for the long winded reply.

Hi Mark

Nice to see someone in our neck of the woods! I think a BD player is the way to go BUT you also need to connect it up for them, plug it in and show them how to use it when you deliver the product. People are remarkably ignorant even about DVD players and yes, I have seen clients even with a DVD player set up on the menu in 4:3 and they quite happily watch all their movies in letterbox. Dunno about your area but even in Perth people don't seem to be too enthusiastic about BluRay! and while most will have a big flat screen TV you find they have a $30 DVD player sitting under it.

It is really a shame to shoot in HD and deliver in SD and if you didn't supply them with a BD player but supplied the product in both DVD and BD disks, I wonder if most would ever actually go out and buy a BluRay player?? I tend to supply the bride with HD footage on a thumb drive too. The one thing a bride will do is show off her wedding video to her friends and normally it's at their place or a local hangout and she brings along her notebook ...For me that's important as I'm unlikely to get any referrals from then watching the video at home BUT I will get friends her own age watching it on a notebook or tablet and unlike Mum and Dad or Nana..the bride's friend's are potential clients.

Who supplies video that the bride can run easily on her iPad ?? All the young ladies nowdays seem to not leave home without an iPad so maybe a mini USB stick with the video would be a good idea??

Chris

Hi Chris,

I will this season switch to blu-ray only. No DVD. If they don't have a BD player (which is the minority among the potential couples I surveyed at the last bridal fair) I remind them when they buy one to buy an HDMI lead as they are not supplied with one in the box (who knows why; it's like printers seldom come with a printer cable).

There is no need to set it up for them as they plug it into power and stick the HDMI into the TV or home theatre receiver. They work the same as a DVD player so why do they need to be shown how to use it?

I think it is well worth educating potential clients to the differences between SD & HD as I can use that as a point of difference of why they should choose me, and why my prices are higher than most of my competitors. I am also a bit of an audiophile, so I would rather they saw my work on a nice HDTV but with sound through a home theatre system. In my past life in TV, we used to say sound is 70% of television. I demo my work to potential clients on my home theatre system to show it off in its best possible light.

I don't particularly want my work displayed on an ipad or phone or laptop. It's OK for the highlights but not the long form movie length version. If they want to do that they can rip the blu-ray easy enough to an MKV and play it wherever, but I won't supply the full length version in those formats (not for free anyway).

It shouldn't be our concern if they want to play it on their ipad. If you supply the final product on Blu-ray they can convert it themselves with free software, PC or Mac, to go on any device they like or upload it. If they can't figure it out I'm happy to show them for free, or charge extra to do it for them. Or they can ask any teenager.

USB drives - yeah, but not for weddings. It just doesn't seem high-end enough as a tangible end product, unless they are jewel-encrusted custom ones I guess! How do they skip past the speeches? Do you split the wedding into separate files in lieu of chapters? And what file format do you choose? PC or OSX disk structure? I have been down this road with corporate clients and it is a world of hurt.

Ipads don't have USB plugs either so there goes that option.

The best format I can produce at present is full HD on Blu-ray disk authored via Encore so that's what they get, but once fast broadband is a reality I'm sure it will all be in the cloud.

Cheers

Having said all that, I drift over to here and read this:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/adobe-creative-suite/517285-no-encore-cc.html

I'm still using FCP7 for weddings, Adobe CS5.5 for other stuff and Avid at my other job so this came as a shock. Encore is the common app on all systems. I was planning to upgrade my system to CC at the end of the year. I may have to get CS6 in the meantime just for Encore. Our Avid was going to add CC as well this or next year.

I still believe BD will be around for longer than Adobe & Apple think. A strange decision indeed.

Cheers

Hi Mark

Good point since the iPad has neither an USB port or a SD card slot like Android Tablets but you can buy both an Apple "adapter" for either (quite pricey too!!!)

I would never consider supplying just an online video or just on USB/SD card either as the item physically does not reflect the value of your service " For all that money, all I get is a link/this tiny little thing" I think people do expect a tangible and value looking product for their hard earned money so a set of either DVD's or BD disks in printed cases have become the norm.

I have always figured that it would be good marketing to give the bride a neat little mini USB so it stays in her handbag and can be easily shown to friends who can become new clients for you. The cost of a USB drive is quite feasible as a giveaway besides the disk set but I don't think that it's worth doing that as a freebie if one had to also buy an over-priced USB adapter from Apple for each client!!

You can actually make a sorta menu on a USB if you just number the files intelligently! so instead of having a file called "prep.mp4" You would make a "0001groomprep.mp4" then "0002brideprep.mp4" and so on thruout all the clips so they will appear on the drive with recognisable names and in time order too!
It does give a USB delivery a menu of sorts so the bride can show her mates, just the ceremony clip for instance.
It would be a lot easier for them to carry around instead of trying to disconnect the BD player and cable etc etc!! However it still doesn't solve anything for iPads without un-necessary expense on our side.

The one big asset of supplying a BD player is that you know 100% that the disks will work (as you have already tested them) However it's still an extra $100 out your package costing (plus an HDMI cable too!)

Sadly I still think that brides (they watch it mostly) need a huge amount of education on IQ!! I did a survey on a forum and most responded that they couldn't tell the difference. They are more interested in how pretty the bridesmaid's dresses look ... most wouldn't even notice the resolution but screw up the dresses so the delicate apricot looks orange and they will pick that up in a flash ..in SD or HD!!

Chris

Hi Chris,

That USB file naming is worth a play with, and yes, a suitable custom USB stick that wasn't too cheesy would be a good idea! But like you, I see it as additional to the main movie, not a replacement.

I would only supply a BD player as a deal-sealer, not as the norm. Likewise with the USB thing; I wouldn't buy the Apple adapter. Getting the files onto their device isn't my problem.

Educating the brides is definitely worth it. Maybe if they can't tell the difference they have never seen the difference. They need to see both from about 2-3m away. Beyond that the difference isn't apparent. Show them fine dress detail, hair, foliage, etc and people's faces on wide shots.

Not everyone will get it, just like some people are happy to listen to music from an ipod through crappy speakers. I'm not! :)

Cheers,

What happens when the Bride's computer crashes AND you are no longer in business?
A couple options I can think of. One, the file was uploaded to Vimeo, so there's a fair chance the file uploaded to Vimeo would still be there in the many years to come (videos I uploaded to Youtube years ago are still there) so she could simply re-download the file. Two, it would be wise to encourage clients only receiving a digital copy to make copies of the file to multiple sources (thumb drives, hard drives, computers, and/or cloud storage).

Now consider the alternative, optical disc. What happens if it gets scratched (which is a common occurrence among long term optical disc usage) and you're out of business? If you didn't upload the entire file online, they can't simply re-download it. So did they make copies? You probably gave them at least three original copies, which they gave two of to their parents, so hopefully their parents still have it and can locate it. As for the client making copies, it takes more tech savvy skills to copy optical discs than it does to copy a digital file.

I'll also say regarding videos I have on Youtube from years ago; I can still go to the link on Youtube at a moments notice, but as for the DVD copies I made of them, I'm not sure if I could find in my house where the DVD copies of all those videos are now. Consider the wedding video scene in the movie Silver Linings Playbook; the guy loses his wedding video (on VHS) and goes crazy; if he could have simply gone online to watch it after losing it he could have avoided going crazy and then assaulting his parents and dealing with the police in the aftermath. I'm just saying we need to keep our clients from going to prison. ;)

Mark, the philosophy of only supplying the highest quality that you can, is an interesting view point. I can see the logic of pride in your work and only wanting it viewed in the quality that you have produced it, but I don't find myself in agreement. In my experience, the technical quality of the video is far less important to the couple than the content. As Chris said, get the bridesmaids dress colours wrong and the bride will notice immediately, but SD or HD makes little difference to them.

Although I film and edit in HD, I rarely get asked to deliver in HD and even when I have, it is usually because the client has an HD tv and doesn't realise that they need a BR player to view. I always offer to put their wedding video on an iPad if they have one, because if that is a format that they want to show their friends, then good luck to them. I want them to book me for the the way that I work and the content of the end product, it really makes no difference if they want it on VHS as far as I am concerned.

A high cost product doesn't have to have a high cost presentation system to justify the expense, the value is in the pleasure from watching the end product. As an analogy, a meal in an extremely expensive and up market restaurant, gives you absolutely no end product at all, you are paying for a better overall experience. If you choose to put ketchup on your chef crafted meal, then that is your choice even though the chef may not be impressed!

Roger

Actually just for interest not one bride/groom who has booked me has ever asked about the format..all they want is a wedding video end of story.. I think one groom did ask me if I used HD cameras and I told him that SD only cameras are no longer made. He never asked any other questions. However (maybe just ignorance) they always say to me "We are going on honeymoon for 2 weeks so we will email you when you get back so we can see the DVD's" ... ! Note they expect DVD's not anything else

Sadly you have to supply what the bride expects and here she still expects DVD's ...Sure I'd love them to see my footage in full HD but I doubt whether they want to go thru the hassle of either getting or being given a BD player (and finding a spot for it) and then how is Grandma going to watch it so I tend to take the easiest route for them not for me.

Content is absolute king with weddings and if they had a VHS player and you did it on VHS and the content was good they would be over the moon. No technical people only look at content ..I was watching a crime show a few weeks ago and it was a case that had spanned a good 30 years so along with the pristine footage was some original crime footage probably around 200 line resolution ... I remarked to my wife about the old footage and it's quality and she said "What old footage?" She was watching the story ..I was examining the camera angles and image quality.

Oh Eric there would be nothing wrong to uploading the video and also putting the files on disk and supplying those to the bride as a backup

Chris

Hi Chris,

I don't particularly want my work displayed on an ipad or phone or laptop. It's OK for the highlights but not the long form movie length version. If they want to do that they can rip the blu-ray easy enough to an MKV and play it wherever, but I won't supply the full length version in those formats (not for free anyway).

Cheers

Mark,

Roger was much more polite than I am. I have been "in business" selling images since 1985. This industry has been good to me. I have covered everything from the Olyimpic Games to the Sundance Film Festival. It is a business that feeds my family and I operate it as such. That means I serve the needs of my clients the best way possible with no ego attached to "my work". It is a product and its only value lies in its worth to the client. I have seen countless "demanding artist" types come and go. It is bride and grooms wedding not yours. Like it or not, "your work" is going to end up collecting dust at some point never to be viewed again. The more people that can possibly view it while the work and excitement are fresh the more opportunity for referrals. IMHO.

Steven - I do have an ego (not as big as you may think) and I do take pride in my work, sometimes at the expense of good business sense. I am not apologising for that. Demanding artist? Nope. Most of my TV career I churned out cheap & dirty regional TV ads where content sure wasn't king and the technical quality was not much better. Remember cutting on 1" C format? :)

I, too, have been in the industry since 1985. I also don't believe you don't have an ego if you have survived in this industry this long. I don't mean this disrespectfully; I use ego to mean self-confidence in your abilities rather than self importance.

I am surprised that so many of you disagree with me. Is Blu-ray only too elitist? I figured that as no-one else in my market is doing blu-ray, that is my unique selling point. It takes me another day to create a DVD version I am happy with, and this is a cost I have to wear. By doing only blu-ray it would save me a day's work. If they also want a Vimeo/YouTube version plus iPad version etc, I wouldn't make any money. OK if its a 5 minute corporate presenter, but a two hour wedding takes hours to encode.

Roger - I agree that content is way more important than technical quality. My wife actually keeps me realistic here, or I'll spend too much time tweaking. If quality was so unimportant though, why do we upgrade our equipment every few years? Why do we edit in HD if DVD is fine?

I am interested in all your opinions as this forum has made me see things from different points of view many times before. Living as I do in regional Australia, chances are most of you are in a more sophisticated market than me so I value the input.

Thanks

Hey Mark,

No offence is intended. This is an awesome discussion board. I read your decision to go BR only as a personal choice, not a wise business decision. You guys are all clearly stating that the wedding market is not BluRay centered yet. So why make it your only offering? It is kind of like opening up an ice cream store and saying I am only going to sell vanilla because my freezer is not big enough for more offerings. You will sell some vanilla, but those that wanted chocolate will not be back.

I already said the artist comment came from your displeasure over the thought of "your work" being viewed under less than optimal conditions. I said earlier in this thread about how I feel, that we, as video producers must also be technicians. It behooves us to assist the less technically savvy in utilizing our product.

Yes I remember 1" C. Thank God I can not claim to have edited tape with a razor blade, but I was there. I have carried VTRs on a shoulder strap and shot with the attached camera head! JVC was huge on those things! I prefer dock-able to mean changing from a studio back to a tape recording back on a Sony broadcast camera. And of course, it is not tape anymore.


Steve

Random thought... This is something I've only become aware of recently, so apologies if it's old news. Adobe Encore has reached end of life, and there's no new optical disc burning program in the creative suite (though you can still install Encore CS6).

http://www.adobe.com/products/encore/faq.html

Is the Encore CS6 version the final release of this product?
Yes. The trend in the video and broadcast industry is moving away from physical media distribution. The
future is in cloud and streaming content. Therefore we are focusing more on products that deliver to
streaming services. For example, Adobe Media Encoder and Adobe Premiere Pro CC include a new
feature allowing users to create iPad-ready video with QuickTime chapter markers. The Encore CS6
version will be the final release of this product.

Presumably, similar thinking is behind the fact that the built-in drives on Macs don't support BluRay, and the newest Macbooks lack internal DVD drives altogether.

Adrian,
I enjoy your posts because you often participate in the non technical aspect of our business. Here is some food for thought. And I am going to sound a little radical for the sake of conversation. But it is based on truth.
The things you mentioned above are true. Our software providers are headed in a cloud based only direction. Unfortunately for us that is an area of our industry that is not being designed for us the consumer of those services. It is a marketing dream for software providers. We are going to be forced into it because they want it, not me. Here is the catch:
It is their cloud, not yours, and never will be yours. But your own intellectual property and YOUR products will reside there under their control. You will not own software anymore. You will subscribe and pay dearly and often to use it. And with the cloud content servers, are you going to allow them to control your access to your product and property? That is what it is about! It is all getting wrapped up in a slick marketing package making it look like it is all for you, it is not. It is a complete reversal of the way everything has been in years past for all of us. We used to buy a disk of software they made and we owned a license to use it. Everything was in our hands. With the cloud, you have nothing, and they even have your work. But that’s OK. You may have signed up for that convenient automatic deduction from your checking account to ensure your service is never interrupted. Are you kidding me!!! Ultimately that is what they want! Control of your work, you will submit and pay over and over again while giving them the right to stick their hand in your bank account every month. You will have to; paying them will come before your house payment because you can’t make your house payment without access to your product. I know this is an extreme example, but think before you jump into the corporate abyss of subscription services!!!

Steve

Well said Steve +1

Roger

I deliver DVD and BluRay in all package. On paper BluRay is am add on for $300. But i always give them out free, as in giving customer a discount.

Dvd and BluRay allows me to better deliver the final movie in a more presentable way. There menu (sometimes bi-lingual) navigation, chapters, closed captioning., behind the scene footage after the main movie. Overall a Hollywood dvd experience.

Since last year, i also oofer usb thumbdrive. It contains all the edited movie in .mp4. Then i also use encore to export adobe flash so client can view it on computer just like viewing a DVD.

I agree with some of you about distributing a professional designed package dvd is good marketing too. Brides can give a copy to their grandparents easily. Its not the same with USB thumbdrive given to grandmom.

Each state has its own state sales tax law. In general, if it's a service without tangible product delivered, AND NO TRANSFER OF OWNERSHIP of media, there is no need to collect sales tax.

Hi Steve

Absolutely!! The biggest issue is you have no tangible product to present to the client (wedding or otherwise) for money already spent. I think people still expect a product at the end that reflects the amount of money they have paid and presenting them with a nicely presented disk set goes a long way to achieving this rather than just a link ...."Your wedding is here"

I always do them on online video (just the ceremony) for people who couldn't make it but that's just an extra not the primary product. Even with commercial promos, the client gets an online video BUT they still get a DVD with the clip in DVD format and also as an MP4 file as a "backup" but plenty will use the DVD at trade shows and showing clients direct.

Chris