I love my Z5.
Since getting the lens calibrated a few months back, it has been quite simply remarkable. And since playing with the picture profiles it has gotten even better .
So my question is this,
Where to from here?
What would be an equivalent or superior camera at a non ridiculous price. I would love an Alexa but I need a place to sleep more than a camera.
Dual SD cards would be good.
I dont want less zoom.
I dont want less manual controls.
Has anyone gone through this exercise and come up with a winner?

interestingly enough, i just had the same thoughts....

end result, sticking with z5.

a. i love the 20x
b. though i shoot to cf with the mcr1k (whatever), i always shoot tape as backup. i sleep well at night knowing it's all there on the shelf and not on some hard drive that'll either get mislabeled and over written, or worse still, fail to spin after a couple of years - and yes, it has happened, 1 x seagate, 1 x wd.
c. i'm sure there's a lot of new cameras that'll knock the socks off of a z5, but to be honest, if my clients can't see any difference, what does it matter?
d. i dislike this obsession with limited dof, it has it's place in the scheme of hings, but by no means should be an overriding consideration in choice of camera.

all the cameras i do like, the glass alone costs more than the whole kit and caboodle...

The NX5U is the next step. I believe it to be virtually the same camera, except recording to cards instead of tape. Looks almost identical, uses same G-series lens also. There is a less-expensive version called AX-2000, does not have HD-SDI output, few other minor differences.

Thanks

I have breathed new life into my pair of Z5s by buying a couple of Atomos Ninjas.
I got the original Ninjas secondhand. I prefer them because they have the LANC passthrough, which means my operators only have one button to push to start/stop.
Prores takes up more space than the HDV codec but the footage is appreciably better, and you can do a lot more grading and tweaking to it before it falls apart.

I'm thinking about getting the new atomos samurai blade and selling the mrc - that way I also have a monitor and better quality footage - what do others think??

So out of interest, what camera/s do you like Leslie?

Thanks Jeff, If my Z5 turned up its toes tomorrow I think I would get the AX2000. They are very similar.

Would love to see the same image captured with the MRK1 and a Ninja.
If I'm on my game and have all the cam settings right, I just can't imagine how it can look better.
I know that sounds naive, would just like to see it.

If they could get there legals sorted out and had a Ninja (or anything else) that could capture to Cineform, that would change everything for speed of workflow.
Connect the hard drive from the device, do a quick edit, open up First Light and do your Primary CC with the metadata, Smart render (no recompress) out your file.
No time consuming rendering, and your CC data goes with the file should anyone want to tweak it later.

Mark, what hard drives have you got in the Ninjas, and how long can you record for?

Gerald, we did have a mrc/ninja/ debate a while back as a possibility of retaining the Z5 while increasing the quality. I think we came to the conclusion that the ninja 2 (it was back then) was only marginally better than the mrc.
But......looking at the Samurai Blade specs and outputting Pro-res for workflow, it becomes a very tasty proposition when coupled as a monitor for my GH3 and GH2 as well as the Z5.
But at this stage it's hard to tell if its value for money.

The Z5 is the only cam I've ever owned in more than 20 years where I haven't lusted after a newer model after six months. Now, after 3 1/2 years, I still don't have any desire to "upgrade." In my opinion there isn't a better cam in the price range. The NX isn't an upgrade in my book -- as Jeff said, it's basically the same cam but loses a few features and can't shoot to tape while shooting to card as the Z5 can. And of course there's only one button to push on the Z with the MRC and LANC so I'm not sure what Mark is referring to or how a different recorder changes that.

Going from the Z to the AX is a huge step down. From the Z to the NX is closer but they still dropped a few settings from the NX that I like and use on my Zs, plus as Leslie mentioned I like to be able to shoot to both tape and card if I want.

well gerald, i really don't know what to write - or as i previously wrote - the cameras i like, which include the alexa, black magic and sony pmw's, all have interchangeable lenses, unfortunately, the glass i like costs very much more than the cameras themselves...

and unless you use GOOD glass, you're probably wasting the advantage such cameras can give one.

i don't do features, mostly short-form doco, and the like, geared to net / intranet / and (now rarely) dvd - with an audience that can certainly tell vhs from digital, but probably not low-end digital from high-end.

as for 'cinematic' quality, i can't see the need for it in my niche, most art work i shoot is done on a d700 nikon and therefore the quality only effected in post - and i can assure you, the artists i work with would be the first people to notice any quality drop ;-)

as for mrk vs ninja, i'd be interested to see side by side clips, though i can't see myself ever working with prores.....

I'm with you on the pro-res Leslie, I personally don't have any need for it in post either however...a lot of editors I shoot for do use it and it would be good to just download pro-res files to give them rather than me transcode and send on a stick. If anyone has done a field test or can decipher mrc v samurai specs I'm sure a lot of Z5 users would be very interested.
Gerald.. sorry to stray from the thread but as Leslie and a few others have said, unless you upgrade significantly to shoulder mounted cams with interchangeable lenses I really don't think it's worth the money unless you are shooting for broadcast.

I am actually really enjoying the insights thrown around here.
As I said before, when I get my settings right, I can't imagine a much better image than what I get from the Z5. Its good to hear you guys (with prob a fair bit more experience than I ) are still speaking so highly of it.

I have seen the raw footage, (and then the graded versions) when my sons old band did film clips on Red and Alexa. Its amazing, not even in the same league, but so is the price of that equipment.

I guess I might start keeping an eye out for another one :)

And of course there's only one button to push on the Z with the MRC and LANC so I'm not sure what Mark is referring to or how a different recorder changes that.


The Original Ninja has LANC pass-through connection so if you have a LANC controller the cable goes from the LANC controller to the Ninja, and the Ninja to the Z5. So by pressing one button you start recording on the Ninja and the tape (and the MRC1K as well!) at the same time.

The new Samurai Blade should be able to do this too, as it, too has a LANC connection. However the Samurai Blade has a HD-SDI connector so anyone wanting to use this with an HDMI-outputting camera would need one of Atomos' HDMI to HD-SDI converters.


Would love to see the same image captured with the MRK1 and a Ninja.


I'll do that for you on Monday.


Mark, what hard drives have you got in the Ninjas, and how long can you record for?

I have a very random collection of 7200RPM HDDs and 120GB SSDs. They all seem to work OK.
There is a list of approved drives on the Atomos Website. Also info on record times should be there somewhere.

For me, where the Ninja footage REALLY wins over the MRC1K's HDV codec it that you can push it a lot further in terms of image correction / grading before it starts to show artefacts. The HDV codec really isn't very good, and when you start to, say, lift the exposure in dark scenes it starts to break up very quickly.
You can do a lot more with the Ninja's Prores without it affecting the picture negatively.

I'm not at an editing computer today, so I can't post images today, but even without any processing I can see the difference between MRC1K and Ninja in terms of detail captured, sharpness, and dynamic range.
Will try and produce some evidence when I have a moment next week.

The Original Ninja has LANC pass-through connection so if you have a LANC controller the cable goes from the LANC controller to the Ninja, and the Ninja to the Z5. So by pressing one button you start recording on the Ninja and the tape (and the MRC1K as well!) at the same time.

Ah, got it, so you mean if you are using both the Ninja and an MRC as well as tape, all three at once? Because obviously it's just as you say when you are using the MRC with the Z5 and tape and LANC -- just push the REC button on the LANC remote and both tape and MRC start at once. That's what SYNCHRO mode is all about. So there is no benefit to using Ninjas instead of the MRC in this regard, although it appears there is one if you are using them in addition to one.

Unless, as has been known to happen, I am completely misunderstanding what you are saying, in that you are preferring the Ninja to something other than the MRC, and there is another benefit you are referring to.

I have breathed new life into my pair of Z5s by buying a couple of Atomos Ninjas.

Mark, are you using the Samurai Blade or the early ninjas

Chris, I'm using the original Ninja.

If the Samurai Blade had been available when I bought the Ninjas I would certainly have considered it, though of course one has to add on the cost of the an HDMI to HD-SDI converter like the Connect H2S Connect Converters | Atomos (http://www.atomos.com/connect-converters/)

Andrew, I am now using the Ninja instead of the MRC1K.
I did indeed record to all three methods - tape, MRC1K, Ninja - for a few shoots while I was auditioning the Ninja but it worked (and still works) fine and never needed the MRC1K's files, so now I just record to tape and the Ninja. I must get around to putting the MRC1Ks on eBay.

The reason why I use the Ninja instead of the MRC1K is because it records a much better picture directly from the sensor. The Ninja records in true 1920x1080 to a vastly superior codec (Prores) rather than the 1440x1080 which the MRC1K records in using HDV's relatively ancient and comparatively dreadful long-GOP MPEG-2.

Of course one plays a price for that: the Ninja is not so easy to attach to the Z5 as the MRC1K. You have to get and keep a good HDMI connection from camera to Ninja. And the footage recorded in Prores takes up a lot more HDD space in your archive than the MRC1K's: approximately four times as much. You can't calibrate the screen on the Ninjas, and it doesn't give you any camera information, so although its screen is larger than the Z5's built in screen you still have to use the built-in screen or viewfinder for checking exposure and focus.

So the Samuari Blade, whose screen you are supposed to be able to calibrate, and which has focus peaking a waveform monitor, and zebras as well as LANC Control is a very tempting upgrade for the Z5. When they're actually available for purchase I'll certainly check them out. However, for roughly the same price, the Convergent Design Odyssey 7 is something else I might consider, although it's not going to be available until November, and you can't just use off-the-shelf SSDs.

Thanks Mark, I'm also extremely happy with the Z5 and it performs flawlessly with the MRC - however I take your point that to move to the next level a Ninja is probably quite a cheap option. I think I would swap out the MRC and NInja as all jobs don't need pro-res.
I love the Z5 20X lens and run it with a zoom through wide converter. Also having peaking and XLR's makes the Z5 too good to get rid of if it can be upgraded.
Mark, would the output of the Ninja's or Samurai from the Z5 be broadcast spec. I think most TV stations ask for 50mb/s.

Mark, would the output of the Ninja's or Samurai from the Z5 be broadcast spec. I think most TV stations ask for 50mb/s.

Yes, easily. Why not download the manuals from the Atomos site Support | Atomos (http://www.atomos.com/support/) and yuo can check out all the details for yourself.

Thanks got them, but just need to do some background on what actual pro-res bitrate I end up with. It seems normal 4:2:2 is 144mb/s but I'm not sure whether the Z5 will record a proxy 35mb/s. I'll ask atomos as they have great technical support.
So, it seems if you go down this path, cost will be something like this:
Samurai Blade $1300
Connect HDMI-SDI converter $350
Optional hood $50
Batteries we all have as they work off the NP's
So about $1700 - that's a pretty significant but good value alternative to buying a new camera.

No, it doesn't record a proxy 35Mbps. The Ninja takes the HDMI feed which is straight from the Z5's sensor and records it in whatever version of ProRes you choose.

Of course, if you're happy with the Z5's LED screen, and didn't think you needed a good external monitor, you could buy a used Ninja 1 for about $400 - $500 and you have everything you need to record ProRes and spend the rest of the money on other toys... or beer. Recording-wise, the only disadvantages over a Ninja 2 or a Samurai is that the original Ninja formats HDDs in FAT32 so all the files are broken up into 4GB sections, whereas the Ninja 2 records seamlessly, and you don't have the AvidDnX codec as an alternative. Also the more modern versions of the Atomos OS have file recovery tools, and other enhancements. Anyhow, that's the bargain basement budget solution!

Ninja 1 and lots of beer, Ninja 2 and less beer, Samurai and no beer but a good monitor. Hmmm, there's a few decisions to be made.

Had a Z5 for 4 years and loved the camera but I am fed up with Tape, dropping frames when filming in 1080p and long capturing times if I shoot a few hours of film.

I hired in a second camera on my final shoot, it was the NX5 and I have to say the Z5 was sharper so for that reason I won't be buying the NX5.

I considered the Panny 160A but I think I will be going JVC HM600.

So just slap an MRC on the back of your Z5.

+1 adam's comment....

meanwhile back on the ranch.....

if i thought of another camera, it'd probably be a black magic. why? because i couldn't rationalize spending $100k's on a cinealta whereas a black magic is relatively affordable, as are lenses for it. that said, it sill wouldn't be THAT cheap when you've added all the necessary paraphernalia, and let's not talk ergonomics, audio, etc.,

but then again, compared to a lot of footage i've seen from pretty expensive cameras, it's not necessarily what it's shot on but how it's lit. and in daylight, well, there's not really THAT much difference between picture quality in the prosumer camera range (of course there is in nearly every other way ;-)) that the z5 fits into.

Anybody have a good explanation of why there's been a big price jump in the Z5/Z7 recently? At B&H $600 jump on the Z5 and $900 jump on the Z7. I've been using Z5's a few years and they are great cams but in this price range they really are outdated. They must still be selling a lot of them and the only thing I can come up with is that they're the last of the really good HDV cams being made. I have no intention of replacing my Z5's in the near future but if I was I would certainly be looking at the newer technology.

well, having written earlier that i'd be looking at a bmpcc or similar i have to say that:

a. to bring either (or any dslr) up to the ergonomic standard and flexibility of my z5 would likely cost the same as buying a new z5 ;-(

b. with the cf recorder (and tape as instant archive), there's little other choice out there that gives such bang for the buck.

c. not a great fan of avchd anyway

looks like i too will be hanging on to my z5 for a while longer than i anticipated....

I have a NX5U and it took me almost a year to get the nice sharp image I now get. If you just rented one and shot with default I can understand. It can produce a lovely image much better than my old FX1 which got to look a little old when I got a small Sony AVCHD SR7 when they first came out.

By default my NX5U had flicker reduction ON and Macro focus ON. They need to be OFF to get a nice sharp image. Also exposure as with most Sony's overexposes in auto if that is what you used. Focus is VERY critical and I always use the expanded focus feature to check and keep peaking on also. Once set though the lens holds focus well through zooming. Auto focus is unreliable. For sharpest image iris needs to be in the F1.6 to F4 range. Smaller than F5.6 I use an ND filter. Gain above 9db introduces grain and I set 12db as max really.

I would not go back to tape. I shoot with 3 or 4 AVCHD cameras and can transfer to the PC all 4 cameras for a 2 hour show at about 8 mins per camera. Transfer to PC and backup to LTO3 data tape in about 1 hour compared to 8 hours to transfer tape !!!

Over the few years I have had the camera I have come to like it a lot especially now I know how to get the most out of it.

Ron Evans

So I am just about to pull the trigger on the NX3.
From what Ive read-
Low light is better than Z5
Zoom is same and better (extended zoom to 40x)
Write to both cards at same time. I like safety :)
Overall it looks like a great upgrade.
Anyone have any insights on this cam?
cheers people.

Note that "40x" zoom is meaningless, as at least half of that is digital, which isn't a whole lot better than cropping and zooming in post.

I hear you Adam, but this seems to be a bit better than the traditional digital zoom.
This is pretty impressive. Skip to 4.40 for zooms example
Sony Professional: Unboxing the HXR-NX3 by Zulqar Cheema - YouTube
Any other thoughts on the cam Adam?

I don't really know anything about the cam but the video makes it look pretty impressive.

Check out this thread for more informed opinions:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-nxcam-hxr-nx5u/521275-sony-hxr-nx3.html

Hello again fellow Z5 lovers :)
Keen to get some opinions on this new cam
First Look: New Panasonic HC-X1000 4K Camcorder, Packed with Professional Features | explora (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/video/news/first-look-new-panasonic-hc-x1000-4k-camcorder-packed-professional-features)

Feature wise, this one looks the goods. Few people are saying that the sensor is weak though.

I say again, my Z5 in good light is everything I want, would the X1000 be better in low light though, or similarly noisy to the Z5?

I mainly do event type stuff and an occasional wedding so dont need uncompressed/ prores 444 etc.
Just a pleasing image.

I still find the image from the Z5 gorgeous, did this last weekend and got rave reviews from the Mums and Dads. Sometimes the venues are darker though.... :(
Evangeline Beal-Attwood - Swansea Dance Festival on Vimeo

All opinions greatly appreciated

well if i do pull the trigger it's going to be either the pmw 180, or preferably the 200 with its 1/2" chips.

Yep. The 200 was the dream. But the next price bracket too.
Although, if the x1000 ends up being 4.5k then 6k for the 200 is a no brainer.

ok, raking over an old thread...

pulled the trigger on a low hours 2nd hand ex1. at $3k it seems the best option for MY work. i reckon i'll put my z5 on ebay for a starting figure of $1750 AU and see what happens.

what it all really boiled down to in the end was practicality:

a. no stuffing around with unknown cameras and their quirks and idiosyncrasies

b. ditto accessorising them for MY type of production, eg, decent audio, shooting style (not that the ex1 is hand held friendly)

c. cheap media - using an sxs adapter to record to cheap sd cards which i can send to the client in a rotational manner

d. familiarity of controls etc.,

e. stunning pics - my z5 pics weren't at all bad, but they weren't broadcast quality. ie. discovery, abc, etc.,

f. and serviceable locally (well sydney) by both techs and or sony themselves.

g. NOT avchd

we'll see how it goes. i'll still dream on about arri's, etc., but in reality $3K rings all the right bells ;-)

Hi Leslie,

Post back when you sell the Z5. I am thinking of selling mine. I also have the CF card recorder and will likely sell that with it. I just don't know what to ask for it.

Cheers,

Mark

a client of mine just bought it - $2k with mrck1. if i's ebay'ed it i would have put a res of $1750 and expected around (optimistically) $2250>2500.

it was in excellent working and COSMETIC condition. i stress the cosmetic cause a lot of people are put off by missing lettering, scratches, dings, etc.,

i also threw in 4 batteries (960 copies) and a couple of 16gb class 10 cards.

good luck with selling yours. what you after next?

btw 760 hrs

Thanks for the feedback. That's about what I'm hoping for. $2000 if possible but wasn't sure about including the mrck1. It is much more attractive with it included though. Mine's done 1006 hrs operation; 260 hrs tape. Still looks new.

I'm currently shooting weddings on GH3 & GH4 but take the Sony as a backup. DSLR style cameras are fiddly and a pain to use but with the right lenses the images are superb.

At my other job we shoot P2 (502 & 172) but we're looking at either the Sony FS7 or the new BMD Ursa Mini. I have convinced them the large sensor look is fantastic for the right client, but we still need a rugged workhorse ENG style camera for much of our work: training, inductions, corporate stuff. I really like the look of the DVX200 as that would be a great camera for weddings and a good replacement for the 172.

I hope we get the DVX200 as well so I can borrow it for weddings.

Cheers,

Mark

hope you get what you wish for on all fronts :-)

much as i like the 'dslr' look, they are for me totally useless. if i had time to set up shots, audio, etc., etc., i might have given them more thought, but after trying a couple of times i simply gave up. a camcorder is a camcorder and a dslr is primarily designed for stills - no matter how well you dress it up.

agree the fs7 and ursa mini look very interesting - and i might well have gone down a similar route had not the cost of 'good' glass thrown me right off. also by the time you pimp out the ursa to 'eng' specs it's not looking that cheap anymore...

all the best

leslie