I will interject a different camera that I didn't see mentioned. I shoot video and photos and was recently looking for a new pocket camera to complement my Canon 7D, XH-A1, and HV30. I wanted something that would take great stills, have a fast lens, and shoot great HD video. I also wanted to stay under $600 if possible. I looked at everything and for the money settled on the Canon G15. I've owned it now for two months and could not be happier with the images and video that I am getting out of this camera. It will never be my primary camera but what it lays down for video footage is simply remarkable. I would really recommend taking a look at this camera. Full 1080p at 24fps video that is very nice.

Do you like to get great HD video with compact Canon cameras? Noooo. I think Sony and Lumix are better for that price. Any small Canon cameras works on 50p; they work better on still field. Pocketable Canon cameras miss clever devices for video but they have many of them for stills.
Look here: http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Canon_PowerShot_G15/verdict.shtml
I cannot think to buy about pocketable Canon cameras for video. But it is only my opinion.

This very enlightening discussion is mostly overlooking one other important aspect of video - audio. The built-in audio is all one is going to get for compact travel. My comparison of the audio of the Hx9v and the ZS30 indicated much better audio for the latter.

One of the issues is the aggressiveness of the AGC in audio - where dynamics are flattened, and soft ambient noise is pumped up.

Here is a "travel" video shot with the Panasonic ZS30, which reproduces most of the natural dynamics and levels of ambience and sounds - from singing birds to loud traffic noises and, finally, bell peals:

Panasonic ZS30 (TZ40) Video: Visit to the University of Virginia Campus on Vimeo

The video also takes advantage of the long zoom and shallow dof (!).

To visually assess the sound track dynamics, here is a screen grab of the video time-line in Vegas Pro, where you can see the ups and downs (AGC would mean the sound track would be all red, all the way) and in particular the bell clangs at the end - loud and then diminish each time:

Do you like to get great HD video with compact Canon cameras? Noooo. I think Sony and Lumix are better for that price. Any small Canon cameras works on 50p; they work better on still field. Pocketable Canon cameras miss clever devices for video but they have many of them for stills.
Look here: Canon G15 vs Nikon P7700 | Cameralabs (http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Canon_PowerShot_G15/verdict.shtml)
I cannot think to buy about pocketable Canon cameras for video. But it is only my opinion.

Whatever floats your boat I guess.

Are any of the Canons doing 50/60p? That might be a consideration that would disqualify them for me at least. I seem to recall they were adding it into some of the latest cams? I know that "24p" has been popular for a "film-ish look", but 50/60p has advantages in real world shooting.


@ Mark - you're correct about audio, it IS an important consideration - I've found the compact and SLR cameras to be a bit "weak" more often than not - some are actually more in the "horrible" category... I seem to recall the HX9V was one that did not handle audio particularly well, with distortion in loud conditions (though it might have been a different Sony compact... and there can be a lot of variation between different models!).

Since part of the "charm" of a compact camera/kit is KEEPING it small, ideally you don't want to have to add a digital recorder for "ambient" if that is part of what you're trying to capture...

Sometimes it's not that important if the intent is to add a music track anyway, but it shouldn't be ignored. I usually regard the audio from the compacts as "scratch" and "sync" when using them in a multicam shoot, but haven't noticed anything "bad" in the audio from the RX100 and HX300 in the shooting I've done. Audio from a couple tiny mics that may or may not be ideally positioned in a tiny camera body is not likely "ideal" audio by most estimations.

I'd also mention that "handling noise" is another thing to watch out for - I recall all too well the creaks and squeaks from the HV20 I tried when it was the hot new camera... completely unusable for audio unless you avoided touching the camera body, which wasn't practical - compared to the Sony construction I was used to, it was a shock.

Just one more thing to consider, and something I don't think I've seen mentioned often, if at all, in a "camera review". As we start to get better and better image capture from small capture devices, these things have to be considered - it's quite possible that a "compact" will be the most convenient capture device under a lot of conditions - but you still want to be getting the best capture of the moment!

Does anybody have made tests of Panasonic DMC-TZ40 and Sony HX20? What difference of image quality on video?

You saw my tests directly comparing videos from the ZS30 (TZ40) and the Sony Hx9v (you're welcome), in which the Panasonic was clearly superior in video and audio. So, a comparison of the HX9v and the Hx20v is what you need. If the Hx20v is not an improvement over the Hx9v, then you have answer. If it is, then you need more info.

You saw my tests directly comparing videos from the ZS30 (TZ40) and the Sony Hx9v (you're welcome), in which the Panasonic was clearly superior in video and audio. So, a comparison of the HX9v and the Hx20v is what you need. If the Hx20v is not an improvement over the Hx9v, then you have answer. If it is, then you need more info.I thank you for your reply but ... I'm sorry HX20V have also better lens than the DSC-HX9v... the colors, contrast and sharpness are better.
However the video at University of Virginia Campus is so beautiful. The image is so sharp and crisp that it seems made with RX100. Which were the settings?

PS: Does anybody know when HX50 will ship?

Late to the party but here's a video shot with a Pentax Q (exterior) and Panasonic LX7:

Seven Minutes in a Fiat 500e on Vimeo

Both camera have full manual controls, built-in ND filters, hot shoes, and built-in image stabilization. The Panasonic also has 720P/120FPS slow motion, a fast, good zoom (but sensitive to flare), and an EVF option. The Pentax Q also has a built-in intervalometer (including a way to automagically make a movie from the stills), interchangeable lenses, and tripod friendly battery and card doors. It eats batteries though. Both are under $300, the Q significantly so.

I have excluded Sony HX50 in my purchase because reading here and there I have understand it doesn't give more than HX20 in video quality. I'm considering to buy HX20 or another compact as Lumix TZ40. I'd like to see their comparison but what a pity! There is no side by side comparison on Internet between them.

I thank you for your reply but ... I'm sorry HX20V have also better lens than the DSC-HX9v... the colors, contrast and sharpness are better.
However the video at University of Virginia Campus is so beautiful. The image is so sharp and crisp that it seems made with RX100. Which were the settings?

PS: Does anybody know when HX50 will ship?

The Panasonic ZS30 (TZ40) University of Virginia Campus video was shot using Standard Color in P mode, touch spot focus allowing autofocus during shots (you can also fix focus before shooting and it will stay at that focus), and controlling exposure using ev adjustment (a lot). Auto WB. All handheld, and all shot in about an hour total.

This is what you CANNOT do on the Hx50v or Hx20v in *video* mode that you CAN on the ZS30:

1. Change the White Balance. Yes, that is correct. Must be auto.

2. Fix the focus (must be auto).

3. Choose the color mode (no vivid versus standard, B&W).

4. Use many "creative effects", like one color, etc.

5. The Hx20v does not have a touch screen. You cannot do a focus pull while shooting.

There is nothing that the ZS30 cannot do that the Hx50v can.

For a list of what the Sony Hx20v CANNOT do in movie mode, see:

DSC-HX20/HX20V/HX30/HX30V | MENU items not available in some REC modes | Cyber-shot User Guide (http://docs.esupport.sony.com/dvimag/DSCHX20V_HX30_HX30V_guide/en/contents/04/03/01/01.html#l2_menu)

If I have to be sincere I like a lot the features and options of Lumix TZ40 but I have to be sure about its image quality vs Sony HX20. Camera Labs gives it a no good score about its image quality:
Panasonic Lumix TZ40 / ZS30 vs Canon SX280 vs Sony WX300 | Cameralabs (http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Panasonic_Lumix_DMC_TZ40_ZS30/verdict.shtml)
When I will know its image is better than HX20 I will buy Lumix TZ40.

Adriano, do the attributes that Mark has listed really turn you on? Have you considered ‘handling’ as in how the cameras are to actually use, hold with both hands (or one hand if that’s your preference) and how they slip into the pocket and so on?

And there are two things the HX50v can do that the ZS30 cannot do the first being the HX50v can accept an EVF while to the best of my knowledge that is not possible with the ZS30. The second thing the HX50v does that the ZS30 does not do is to produce colors that please ME.

Both points are extremely important for me. So you see I wouldn’t even consider the ZS30 (even if it came with free beer for a month or more).

Of course this is not to say that Mark’s preference for the ZS30 is wrong; just different that’s all, and that’s a good thing, I reckon. Isn’t it great we are not all the same and that we have choices?

Why not get one of each and make an informed decision based on your own experience. Comparing specifications is fine and dandy but at the end of the day how you (not me nor Mark nor Camera Labs) feel about handling and the end results are all that matter.

You might even decide to keep both!

Let's be clear: the HX50v viewfinder, as far as I can tell, is $449. With the viewfinder, that means you have a $900 camera. And a camera that is not pocketable with the bulky viewfinder. The expensive viewfinder + camera seems absurd (it does not please ME). For that money you can get an excellent dedicated camcorder with more controls that is no bigger.

I agree completely that comparing specs does not give the whole story, for sure. And there is a subjective element to the final product too. Which is why I actually shot a comparative video so you can see for yourself and judge for yourself. Just not of the cameras under question. In the absence of that comparative video - TZ40 versus Hx30v - specs and capabilities (like high-speed mode and white balance set) are relevant, if not everything.

Indeed, how does one determine which video pleases one without actually having video of the same exact scenes at the same time shot by both cameras? That is what we would like to see. And thus anyone who claims they like one camera or another's video color without such a comparison, which is as far as we know nonexistent for the cameras in question, must be based on ?

Dear Mark,
I don't understand fine if Lumix TZ40 has a button to exposure lock or do I have to enter into the options? Do you know if in Sony HX20 there is it?

The way it works on the ZS30 (TZ40): it is a menu option. You either allow autofocus to be on while shooting or off. If the latter the focus is fixed at the point when you start the shot (which you can set using finger spot focus on the touch screen, for example) and will never move. Autofocus in video (if you select that) has the usual tracking options.

There is no option about focus in movie mode that I can find on the Hx20v, or Hx50v or Hx9v except maybe face-recognition.

If the Panasonics have spot focus/exposure, that would be a VERY handy feature, IMO...

I'm used to it on the higher end CX/PJ Sonys, and it is one thing I miss on the Cybershots that aren't touchscreen. It's funny how quick one gets used to certain camera features (like having a touchscreen, for those things it does well!).

THIS is why "hands on" becomes vitally important - because of having used prior HXx00 series cameras, I literally can manipulate the HX300 in the dark (just did last night!). Would it be nifty if it had touchscreen and maybe more of "this" or "that"... maybe... but I find it to be very comfortable to use and efficient to shoot with. I tried the HX9, and just couldn't "get" the smaller form factor - it did not "connect" for me, even though I shoot other Sonys... But I seem to manage with the even more compact (and crammed full of adjustments) RX100. And I'll admit to TRYING to make "touchsceen adjustments" only to realize the camera in hand doesn't HAVE those... DOH!



One CANNOT just look at "samples" as I've previously pointed out - too many variables. One CANNOT just read and randomly interpret "reviews", they are "opinions" by a user who may have had little time to learn how to optimize a particular camera.

YES, it's not a bad idea to do SOME research before you go to the camera store (either offline or on), but in the end YOU still have to be happy with the image quality you can achieve once you learn how to best use the camera, and must be the one who is happy with how it 'handles", and how it fits your intended style of use!

There is not a "one camera for every user" out there, PERIOD. There isn't a "one camera does it all" (and does it all well) solution... There ARE an increasing number of compact P&S still cameras that ALSO shoot darn fine HD video and fit in your pocket so you always have a reasonably high quality image capture device at your fingertips.

In the end, the camera you have WITH YOU when opportunity gives you the "perfect shot" is the ONLY one that counts! And of course having a camera you are comfortable with and can adjust to GET that perfect shot or clip is a big part of the consideration!


I know these aren't video, but here are a couple shots that just presented themselves... the moon shot would not have been possible without the insane zoom on the HX300 (and the easy EV adjustment was also needed, as was a braced position!), the other was a long exposure, again something that not every camera will have... I put these up to illustrate that not everyone has the same "expectations" of their camera, and that sometimes you want more creative control.

Hello, I have found a good price for Sony HX20 on Amazon. It is 240 euros. I have just verified at shop in my town and its price is 330 euros. On Amazon I have read some reviews by users and they tell Amazon buys the camera from China. Will it be true? Is there the origin printed on the camera?

This is the review on Amazon:
"The product is Made in China, as opposed to what I had seen on other stores.
Sony has confirmed to me that there were two different productions, so this explains different origins and the difference of price on Sony.com".

Of all the things that have been identified there are a few missing as needed for me in a small pocketable camera intended for capturing real events. How quick from pocket will it take a good photo or video and do you already own accessories that would fit the new camera. ( In my case I had batteries and travel charger for Sony so got the HX30V ). In this situation my expectation is everything is in auto. Power on, point and shoot. If there is time for a set up then the choices now move to a lot of cameras with manual controls etc etc that can fit in a small bag. If video is important a video camera that will shoot stills is now on the list and will shoot better video etc etc. One of the new small Sony's with projector is a good travel cam and you can look at your own as well as other peoples shots on the wall. I take on my ski trips the HX30V, NX30U and a GoPro Hero 3 Black Edition all fit in a small bag for travel. On the hill its the GoPro on my helmet and the HX30V in my pocket. For real, handheld video its the NX30U and to go out in the evening the HX30V is again in my pocket.

If absolute performance is your aim then you will need to spend more money than you are looking at with these small cameras. But for most people they will not see the difference if viewed on computer or TV.

These small cameras are not expensive so buy two of them and then sell the one you do not like as much. You will be a lot further ahead than keep asking questions and looking at video or stills from test sites.

Ron Evans

Ron re-affirms what I've said, time to BUY a camera, not noodle around looking at other peoples "opinions"!

And thanks Ron for making me feel like I"m not the only nut who takes a mini-camera store along with (it's worse for me because the whole family shoots...). Right now an RX100 and the HX300 are the first picks, but I've got various TX series because they are compact or in some cases ruggedized... the "real" video cams and SLT's don't get as much use when there are smaller alternatives!



Adriano - Sony has been transitioning a lot of their production to Chinese factories from what I can find out there - early RX100's are Japanese, later ones are Chinese... the TX10 was MIJ, the TX20 is MIC. Like so many companies, they are trying to cut costs. If I had to guess, the HX20/30 was probably MIJ initially, and there may be stock in the channels, and later production is MIC. I've looked at a few discussions on this, and there doesn't appear to be any significant difference in quality, despite the perception.

You SHOULD make sure that you aren't getting a "grey market" camera, but one that is intended for sale and warranty in YOUR country, unless you just buy a lightly used one at an even better price! I'm sure the HX20 is on "closeout", so prices should be pretty soft on both "new" and used... and that seems to be the one that's caught your fancy. It's not so expensive that you can't use it as a backup if you decide something else is "better"!

At the end I have bought a Sony HX20. I have bougth it because I like to realize how good is the video with these small cameras. I have made some shots yesterday and I have to tell I like its video but I'm noticing it gives less definition than a good HD videocamera even in high light. Even if it is not a big problem I hope I'm wrong. Anyway, I'll have to use it again for a long time to be able to say what I'm saying.

Is it possible in video mode on the Sony hx300 to use the camera in manual? or is this strictly an auto video camera.

In video mode, you can adjust exposure compensation, otherwise, it's press record and go. Still takes nice video though, can't complain about the results. There is a "high ISO" setting for low light in the video menus - and it does let the camera shoot surprisingly well in low light. It's a still camera with a very nice capable video function as a bonus.

I'm actually comfortable shooting video with the top end HX, got lots of good stuff with the HX100, 200, and now the 300.

Thanks David,

Shame that there's no manual mode. What do you do if you have high backlight that you need to blow out so the foreground is exposed?

Simon - If you want manual exposure control in video mode, you may want to look at the Panasonic FZ200. It features a constant aperture f2.8 zoom lens, an external mic jack and full manual control of exposure in Creative Movie mode.

Cheers,

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution (http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com)

Simon -

Well, the camera handles MOST exposure situations well automatically - Sony uses facial recognition, so you can expect the exposure to try to adjust to best expose a face in a backlit situation - it just does it... much faster than you could "think" it through manually.

IF you want to alter the auto setting, it's a breeze on this camera - just tap the wheel that at least for me is right under my thumb, that activates EV shift, and you turn that wheel to compensate the camera's exposure settings - you can do it while recording, it works quick and easy, and since I don't really want to be digging around fiddling with "manual" settings, I'm good with it.

"Manual" control is fine and dandy when you have time to think and adjust, but I'll take a one press/spin solution for shooting any live event. EV shift works very well to adjust if and when auto just isn't quite spot on. I don't feel "limited" because I can't play with aperture or shutter.


The FZ200 Bill mentions is another camera in this same general class, and has many features that Sony would be wise to "adopt", lots of things you can "fiddle with" if desired. The 2.8 aperture over the full lens range is great, the VF is more usable, lots to like...

Probably due to familiarity with the interface/control layout, and image compatibility with other Sony cams, I still prefer the HX300... both stills and video look somehow slightly better to my eye, and that also counts for something.

IMO you can't go "wrong" with either camera, and in terms of bang for the buck, you get a lot when you buy one of these "superzoom bridge cameras" - very close to a Swiss army knife of cameras... reasonably "small", easy to work with and do most things decently well.

Thanks David & Bill for your response, it's info like this that makes these forums great. I'm going to test the Sony today and I'll try and find a FZ200 also. I think auto will be fine for what I need, I'm after one of these cameras for picking up quickly and pointing and shoot.

Cheers guys.

The nice long lens on the HX300 is quite sensitive to any vibration at least on my unit which was bought as a refurb for 1/2 the retail last fall when they first came out.
I get a little "twitching" in the video here and there after a live zoom and when I remove my hand from the tripod pan handle. Was using an adapter on the tripod head with additional cold-shoes and also because it provided a nice big handle. so the HX300 was not locked down solidly on the Manfrotto mounting plate and that's when this slight twitching of the lens occurred which the viewer would see as a slight camera jiggle. I'm uber-careful to eliminate any unwanted camera movement so I always use a tripod when shooting sports and dance etc.
I've since taken the adapter out from between the head and the camera and the twitching has gone for the most part.
It seemed to be some sort of tension back-lash built up in the len's stabilization system but as I say mine was a refurb. If I grasp the end of the lens when it's extended and wiggle, the whole barrel readily moves almost to an alarming extent.
btw though I'm still tickled pink with the HX300

You can't go too far wrong with either camera. I've had Sony's version of this model (HXx00) for several years, whatever the current one happens to be. I like the way they handle, for want of a better description.

I'd definitely say Sony should pick up on some of the features of the Panny as well, but I like the look of the stills and video better straight out of the camera with the Sony. If I can figure out a way to tweak the color rendition, I'm still tempted to keep the FZ - it's got some excellent features, and you can easily use it for quick point and shoot, plus it's "adjustable" if you want to explore further.

Keep in mind both these cameras have fairly small sensors, similar to most consumer video and P&S cameras, so don't expect "DSLR" look, these are "high end" P&S cameras, with decent video functions, and a little more control over your shots. For the prices, you get a lot.

Thanks Dave, I cant seem to find one here in local shops and it looks like they are NTSC only which is odd.

Simon - I was able to find a couple of eBay Australia listings for PAL FZ200s:

The first is a $799 unit from Oz Digital Online in Sydney and the second is $750 from Photopro in Melbourne.

This camera is also capable of shooting at 720/100p slow motion, which you may find interesting.

Here is a nice little effects piece featuring FZ200 slow motion (please watch at 720p):

Panasonic LUMIX DMC-FZ200 Beautiful 120fps High-Speed and Fantastic Effects - YouTube


Again, hope this is helpful,

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution (http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com)

Thanks Bill,

I really want the Sony but I'll have to think things out again and the Panasonic FZ200 is in my radar.

Cheers

I've had the HX300 for a while, and got an FZ200 to test - still debating whether it's a keeper. Many things to like, but a few quirks.

The plusses to the 200 are a better VF, the slo mo capability, the fast continuous ap lens, more manual control, and you can also use creative filters while shooting video. On the downside, I definitely see the 12MP vs. 20Mp - stills are OK, but I'd take the Sony on that count. Video looks pretty good, but again I think the Sony is a bit cleaner and does a bit better with low light (excepting where that fast lens gives the Panny a big leg up if you have to zoom in).

I'm still a bit mixed on how the Panasonic renders skin tones - they look a bit off to my eye, and so far I haven't figured a way to tweak them... that if anything may be the deal breaker as I expect people to look "good" and healthy... I definitely have a "memory" with Sony controls, so it's easier for me to work with, the ergonomics seem a tad better on the Sony, but the Panasonic swivel VF is a nice touch.

At the moment the HX300 and an RX100M2 are my "go to" package - a lot of imaging capability in a tiny bag! I could probably just as easily have the FZ200 in that bag. You really can't go wrong either way, I know that sounds silly, but in this case both cams will "point and shoot" with good results, the Panny has some strong points, the Sony has others... I'd love to Frankenstein the two together into ONE monster camera!!

I agree 100%. I would love to have Sony's resolution and color reproduction added to Panasonic's mic inputs, standard hot shoe, swivel LCD and slow motion!

I really don't understand why Sony refuses to put mic jacks and standard hot shoes on their consumer cameras, even the high end RX100.

I would buy a Sony superzoom in a heartbeat if it had a mic jack and standard hot shoe. Until then, I'll hang on to the old FZ150 :)

Cheers,

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution (http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com)

Hopefully Sony is listening <wink> - that list is pretty much the same as mine for an "HX500" (I hear 4 is bad luck in Japanese tradition!).

I can say that ALL of those things are easily doable in a camera the size of the HXx00 series - the RX100, not enough room inside that thing to squeeze in a flea! I've had both cameras stripped down to bones in the last couple days (one to fix, one to see what was left after being run over by a truck by the look of it!).

Sony HAS put the hot shoe (with additional custom contacts for Sony attachments) on the RX100M2, and the HX50, so that should be easy. A mic jack shouldn't be hard (actually is probably a simple adapter through the Sony shoe contacts, like on the old HC Handycams!), but I can live with dual record too. I'd add a better VF than the 300 has. A swivel screen would be "better" that the current design, though I can live with the tilt most of the time, keep the Sony image quality, figure out the continuous aperture, ability to record in the FX modes (the RX100 can do some of them), and add a better slo-mo (I think the Panasonic gets away with it from the lower pixel density sensor so it doesn't overheat with the continuous higher bitrate required).

Of course it would be really nice if it had a sensor like the RX100, BUT the lens would then have to be HUGE - the smaller sensor lets them put that crazy 50X thing in a reasonable package! I figure if I'm shooting close range, the RX100 fits the bill, and the HX is there to get the longer shots, or if I need a VF to frame. I've shot the tow side by side, and the HX300 is no slouch, it takes a trained eye to see exactly where the RX100 is better, though I suspect the M2 has widened that gap (haven't shot those side by side yet... SOON!).

Which of the cameras mentioned in this thread has the widest angle lens? I am looking for something that will get a whole soccer field from the top of high school bleachers. I can't seem to find a regular video camera with a wide angle, so reading about these they may fit the bill.

HX300 (HX400 just announced, soon to release, added the MIS shoe, not anything else immediately apparent, perhaps faster processor), roughly 32-35mm equivalent wide angle in video mode.

DSC RX10 (new, announced and released since this thread, expensive, and worth it), 29-31mm equivalent in video mode. RX100M2 has wider, but weaker zoom, so it's tough to get in tight from a distance.

With these dual mode cameras, you have to check the lens range as it changes when the ratio is 16:9 vs. a 3:2 or 4:3.

Sony CX and PJ7xx series cameras are 29mm equiv if memory serves, and about as wide as you can get unless you go "fisheye", and you might be able to add a wide angle adapter to gain a little more (IIRC the HGA 07B doesn't vignette unless you're moving the camera around... the active IS will move enough you can get the lens in the corners).

If you ONLY need wide, the RX100M2 might do the trick, but if you also need to get tighter shots, you'll need a lens with more long end.

The sony cx7xx series start at 26mm wide angle which is very wide for a fixed lens camera.

The PJ7xx series uses the same lens block, and would be the same 26mm too then... PJ designates "projector" models which are mirrored by "CX" series (that don't have a projector built in). There is also the NX30 in the pro line, which is more or less a PJ760 with an added audio block/mic.

US models from the last two model years would be CX760, PJ760, PJ710, PJ790, EU models have a slightly different numbering scheme...

Again, if it's strictly a fixed wide "safety" shot, the RX100M2 has a wider lens and is very small... but its own set of limitations due to small size. I'm thinking it might work as one component for a multicam shoot, but I'm not sure about the requirements... "whole soccer field" when on wide is a little bit broad...