Pardon my ignorance, as I always want to learn. Why is a feature to change white balance while recording so important? What are you recording that requires it. I have never had the desire to change it while recording. The only thing I have recorded with that drastic changes in lighting are stage shows. However, white balancing for each scene distorts the overall look the lighting designer worked so hard to achieve.

It is stage shows that I need it for and I agree that it is normally best to leave it on Auto, however, sometimes it needs tweeking, particularly when filming at outdoor theatres. Never come across a camera that couldn't do it - that's all.

You need it for any event where you change angles or pan to a spot where the lighting requires a different white balance setting.

This scenario is very common in wedding work. For example, during the processional my main camera might be pointing at the door of the church, then after the processional I am aimed at the altar. Totally different lighting.

Or when you go from indoor to outdoors and you cannot/do not want to stop recording for continuity purposes. For example, if you are following someone who leaves or enters a building, such as a bride and groom leaving a church.

Auto white balance on the XA-10 was the worst I had ever seen, it is never usable for me. Don't know yet about the XA-20.

Alright. I do understand why you might need to change the settings when changing angles, but I normally would stop recording while I change positions. It could make lining things up in the NLE much easier if I didn't. However, you got me on leaving a church following the couple. I have just used auto WB for that shot. If the camera's auto WB couldn't handle it, changing while recording could be a nice feature. I don't trust myself to handle that while following the couple through the crowd and out the door, though. I might break something.

Yours and my idea of acceptable color and white balance might be different. Also, we NEVER turn off during a wedding for any reason if it can be avoided. The event does not stop and wait while I adjust my white balance or move my cameras. I need continuous audio and video as well. Sadly, I do end up turning off the camera at times to set my white balance, and I hate doing it.

Auto white balance sucks on most of these cameras. If it's acceptable to you, great. To me the XA10 had the worst auto white balance I'd ever seen. I suspect the XA20 is better, but even so, I doubt that I will rely on it, especially trying to match cameras.

If you do a lot of weddings you know for many catholic churches, or any church for that matter, you will have a mixture of sun and incandescent lighting and you cannot possibly trust auto white balance, it cannot know what to do.

Note for dummies. just wanted to try:

Auto ramt vluchtheuvel Oirschotsedijk [foto's + video] - Eindhoven - dichtbij.nl - Eindhoven (http://www.dichtbij.nl/eindhoven/112/artikel/2907780/auto-ramt-vluchtheuvel-oirschotsedijk-fotos-video.aspx)

This video is how the XA25 performs in full-auto mode. Not bad at all, surely when you consider filming under a viaduct can give hard time in defining the aperture.Biggest dissapointment for me so far is the zoomrocker on the XA25. It's very sturdy and there is almost no way to get a soft and nice zoom.

Bryon, I was filming an outdoor event for NASCAR two weeks ago and we followed a driver indoors where my images promptly turned yellow because I could not switch to an indoor WB setting. The footage is nearly impossible to grade in post. I can remove the yellow cast, but then everything else looks just very bad color wise. Problem is I was trying to use a prosumer camera for a professional application, which is my fault. So while the camera's features are what they are, I'm still peeved and disappointed. I just hate that they label this a pro camera and then cripple this feature.

My Sony NX30U will change while recording. Couple of button pushes though not like moving a switch on the NX5U. One of the MY buttons on the LCD can be set as white balance which will then open the white balance setting menu and any of the choices can be made while recording. So two button pushes instead of moving a switch but it works fine. I think you can do the same by setting one of the buttons on the XA20.

Ron Evans

Ron, the XA-20 will let WB menu to be activated with a programmable button, which gave me hope when I begann playing with the camera, but the feature will not appear when recording. When going through the regular menu, the WB item on the menu is greyed out when recording. Stinks.

Jeff,
Can you assign two of the assignable buttons to pre-set WB settings & simply push the buttons to go between the two? Of course even if this is possible, it may be too sudden a change to be useable.
The other option if it exists is setting up a WB transition like on the Sony EX-3 where the shot transition buttons can be used to transition between two WB settings.
Regards,
Bryce

P.S. I'm glad I don't have to deal with this issue in my shooting conditions. I think it would be a bit of a pain trying to do it all on the fly. Sure for a set shot, but in your situation, I can see how it would be tough!

Bryce, good idea, but no. The assignable button brings up the WB menu only, not a preset.

Ron, the XA-20 will let WB menu to be activated with a programmable button, which gave me hope when I begann playing with the camera, but the feature will not appear when recording. When going through the regular menu, the WB item on the menu is greyed out when recording. Stinks.

Yes that is bad. Even though all my stuff is in the theatre I often check to see all the cameras are set correctly after I start recording and more than once one of the cameras is on the wrong WB setting and its nice to just change while recording. I expect your only solution is to momentary stop and change but that makes sync more difficult later.

Ron Evans

You're right, I can stop and change, but as we all know, that is not always possible. On the other hand, the WB menu is much handier on the XA-20 when using the programmable button, which will speed up the process a bit.

Note for dummies. just wanted to try:

Auto ramt vluchtheuvel Oirschotsedijk [foto's + video] - Eindhoven - dichtbij.nl - Eindhoven (http://www.dichtbij.nl/eindhoven/112/artikel/2907780/auto-ramt-vluchtheuvel-oirschotsedijk-fotos-video.aspx)

This video is how the XA25 performs in full-auto mode. Not bad at all, surely when you consider filming under a viaduct can give hard time in defining the aperture.Biggest dissapointment for me so far is the zoomrocker on the XA25. It's very sturdy and there is almost no way to get a soft and nice zoom.

Gabor, there is a way to get a 'soft and nice zoom' on the XA20/25 cameras. Go into the MENU on the camera, then select the 'Soft Zoom Control' option, then select 'START and STOP'. Next, set your 'Zoom Speed Control' (not the 'Handle Zoom Control') to about midway (which is the factory default). Make sure you select 'CONST' so that when you press down on the rocker, the speed will be constant (a variable setting is also available).

This should give you nice, slow zooms that start and stop softly. If you want the zooms to be even slower than this, simply go into the 'Zoom Speed Control' option and choose a slower speed.

Hey Jeff,
I just picked up my XA20! Certainly lots of improvement over the HF G10 that I have. Maybe not up there with my EX-3, but hey, it's tiny compared to that camera!!
I just had a look, & you could assign one of the buttons (like number 4, being at the back of the cam & not behind the LCD screen) to white balance. Once you push it, you can select from all the custom white balance presets, as well as the 2 custom white balance settings. If you set one to the colour temperature of the lighting inside, & one to 5600k for outside, you can then simply use the little toggle to go between the two. Quite easy & very fast, but unfortunately as you have mentioned, you are not able to do it whilst recording.
Regards,
Bryce

You can also do it even faster with a single button push, if I read the manual correctly, by assigning one of the buttons to be "WB Priority". Then you shoot at one chosen WB setting, hit the button and it switches to your WB Priority setting. Hit again and it goes back to the first WB setting.

Incidentally, I've just uploaded my unbox / first look review to YouTube, for anyone who hasn't ordered one yet. More videos to come soon...

Cheers
Dave

Thanks David, didn't know about that.

This is what I've found: You can use the WB Priority feature to go from Auto White Balance to the setting of your choice, but you cannot go from a custom setting to custom setting. You have to play with it to understand it, it's very weird.

Basically, when you turn on the WB Priority feature, it goes to whatever WB setting you choose, but when you push the button again, it goes to Auto White Balance. I just spend a few minutes playing with it. It is a worthless and idiotic feature.

You can assign buttons 3 and/or 4 to WB Priority, but they both to the same thing, so when you change one, it changes the setting on the other to match. Completely, totally worthless, unless you use Auto White balance, which I do not.

I've been using Auto WB around the house and it's not worth much. It might be fine for outdoor lighting, haven't tried it yet.

If you find auto WB acceptable for outdoors, then the button could work for you. Set the custom to the indoor shoot and press it when leaving the building to let auto take over outside. This only would work if you find auto acceptable outside. At least there is hope.

Hi Jeff,
I just had a play too & it looks like you can actually use the WB priority to toggle between two custom WB settings. Go to "Func" then WB settings. Set both your indoor WB say on custom WB 1 & outdoor WB on WB 2, then assign a button to WB priority. From there you need to go into the menu & set the WB priority. This could be set at either custom WB 1 or 2 but lets say you set it to custom WB 2. Exit the menu. Go back to the func. & WB settings. Select custom WB setting 1. Now when you push the Custom button you assigned to WB priority, you can toggle back & forth between the two custom WB settings you set up in the beginning.
No it's certainly not perfect, & you still have to stop recording to do it, but it's a work around.
Hope this helps,
Bryce

Thanks a ton, Bryce, I will give that a try in a few minutes, sounds nice. Not sure I understand it, but I will read your instructions as I go along. Very encouraging. I have to leave shortly for a mostly indoor shoot, hopefully I'll have time before I leave, kind of rushed now!

If you stop a recording to change white balance and start a new recording within 3 seconds doesn't the pre record buffer allow you to edit out the pause later?
Just wondering..

Please correct me if I am wrong but if the 3 second record buffer is enabled and you stop a recording for less then 3 seconds, there is no loss of data whatsoever, just a end of file and start of a new file on the SD card. This would mean that you could stop recording, change white balance and start again and the result would be the same as not stopping at all.

You're welcome Jeff.
Frank,
Great idea, however, I just gave it a shot, & unless i'm doing something wrong, there still seems to be a small gap in time between the two recordings. What I did to test it was to do a pan and half way through, stop recording & make the switch with the white balance then start recording again. Took a couple of seconds at the most to do it, but there is still a noticeable gap in the pan. The second of the 2 shots has the transition of the white balance a few frames in from the start of the clip, so it has buffered the shot, seemingly just not the full 3 seconds?? Again, maybe it's how i'm going about it, so if anyone else can make it work i'm sure it would help those out in need of such a feature.
Regards,
Bryce

I just saw in the manual that the pre record function is disabled when pressing the white balance button, etc.

Just a couple of small things, but they are bugging me, the lens hood only stays on with a very small twist of the wrist and has pinged off twice already in the last 5 mins when closing the lens cap lever.

More unforgivable is that the BP-819 and BP-827 battery packs from the XA10 DO NOT work on the XA20, comes up with the message "Battery pack not compatible, turning off the camcorder"

Now bad as the expense of buying extra batteries is, if you are doing a multi shot with the XA-10 the new BP-820 is identical looking and fitting to the BP819, so good luck getting the right battery on the right camcorder if you are in a hurry.

Hi Paul:
That is not nice at all presumably they both have the same milliamp rating of 1750 or so.
I wonder if the wide angle adapter (the genuine Canon Wide Angle) adapter the WA-H58W for the XA-10 will be able to be used on the XA-20 as you may know this piece of glass does not cost pennies.
The one for the XA-20 is the WA-H58 with a 0.8x magnification.
The one for the XA-10 is the WA-H58W with a 0.7x magnification.
Presumably they are both 58mm thread but I wonder about vignetting,

If anyone, has any opinion on this or knows any test done with the XA-20 and the wide angle adapter for the XA-10 your input will be appreciated as I am considering the upgrade to the XA-20.

Thank You
Luis

RE: battery pack confusion, I suggest using stickers and color coding. I put round, yellow stickers on my
XA20 and it's batteries, it's the only way to avoid confusion during a shoot.

I just saw on the B&H website that the HF G30 is now available.
Denny

Hi folks. Well we took delivery last week of our long awaited XA25 and now that we have had a real good play with it there are a few things that bother us.

For the record we shoot news on a Sony PMW350, but needed a small HD cam for in car stuff and the like, so we bought into the XA10 two years ago. It was OK but lacked a few refinements, which the XA25 seemed to address. ie 20x Zoom with a more controllable rocker and an SDI output.

So what did we discover.

Well the notorious CMOS wobble effect is pretty bad when mounted in a car. The image stabiliser settings don't appear to help out with the rolling shutter issues on the XA25. Next we noticed some really bad colour aberration in high contrast situations when zoomed in over 50% of its range ( never saw much with the XA10 ) This may be due to the new 20x lens fitted to the XA25. Then we looked at the AF options. The results were not fabulous to say the least. We tried to shoot a piece to camera without an operator behind the camera, ie how a video journalist would work. The AF face detect mechanism struggled to stay on the face of the presenter who was pretty much static and well lit at the time. When we looked at the footage in FCP at 100%, it was difficult to say where the focus was but it certainly wasn't the subjects face.

Now I can here most of you saying " well what do you expect for the money" Thing is, it's like someone else said earlier on this site. Canon are marketing this as a "professional" product, so I kind of expected better. Then there is the annoying little battery situation as mentioned recently. We also have a XA10 and 4 BP-819 batts with a charger. These of course will not work in the XA25 because Canon wants you to buy some more batteries from them. Whats really annoying here is the fact that physically there is no difference whatsoever with a BP-819 (XA10) and a new BP-820 (XA25). Shame on you Canon !

Oh and our final moan of the day is the 35mb MP4 files don't import too well into Final Cut 7 unlike JVC's 35mb XDCAM EX files. So we still have to transcode the stuff like AVCHD.

Listen, this is just our humble opinion. But I would not be recommending this new Canon baby right now.

Hi everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest, as I'm considering buying an XA20. They arn't available in South Africa yet, so before I finally commit I'd like to benefit as much as possible from those of you who have already bought and are sharing your experiences here.

What has been the general feeling about the image quality? I'm just a hobbyist doing mainly wildlife stuff, so the 20x zoom is a big appeal. I've just sold my Panasonic HPX174 mainly because of the bulk and inconvenience of the tele converter I had to use to get a better zoom. A smaller more compact cam would also be an advantage, but I dont want to go backwards in terms of image quality. It will also be nice to get away from the cost of P2 cards. The 174 is a great camera and I really enjoyed the DVCPro system, so not so sure how AVCHD will compare.

The Sony PMW-100 sounds like a better cam than the XA20, but only has a 10x zoom. I'm not as technicaly knowedgable as you guys, so any thoughts on a comparison would be very helpful.

I will continue watching this thread with great interest.

Martin, my experience with Autofocus and auto face detection was much different than yours I found it to work very very well, I was much impressed with it, way better than xa10.

The MP4 thing you mention issue is not a camera issue, but a FCP issue.

You also mention rolling shutter and image stabilization. The two are not connected are they? How would rolling shutter be lessened by using IS? It cannot be, unless you are referring to another phenomenon or I don't understand something.

Neil, you can always buy the camera and try it out, return it if you don't like it. You say the Sony is a better camera but if it lacks the features you need, such as a 20x zoom, then how is it better? The lens is, arguably, the most important part of the camera!

I used the zoom extensively on a shoot and the freedom of having a 20X zoom is exhilarating. It made such a huge difference on my shoot. I cannot believe I've shot for over two years without a 20X zoom.

The AF face detect mechanism struggled to stay on the face of the presenter who was pretty much static and well lit at the time. When we looked at the footage in FCP at 100%, it was difficult to say where the focus was but it certainly wasn't the subjects face.

How weird - like Jeff, my experience with the XA20 has been the total opposite. The Auto Face tracking works like a charm even in some pretty poor lighting situations.

My only thought would be that I noticed the auto-focus was very slow on the low-bitrate 25fps mp4 recording settings, so I wonder if you had the cam on a less-than-optimal setting?

Regards,
Dave

For those testing the autofocus, how does it perform with the subject moving? Specifically with the subject moving across being followed by a camera pan, and with the subject moving directly toward or away from the camera.

Has anyone used it to record actual people in low light yet? I'm curious how it would hold up in a dark reception venue. On paper, this is looking to be a good second angle cam for weddings. At this price, I hope it is.

Thanks Jeff for the help. You're quite right, my statement about selling my HPX174 because of its bulky tele-converter and to then talk about a cam with a 10x zoom doesnt make any sense at all.

Sounds like apart from the white balance probem you're reasonably happy with the xa20. How have you found image quality generally? Although good low light performance is obviously a great plus, most of my important shooting is in good outdoor lighting and thats where I want the best image qualilty.

Availability in South Africa is expected in July, so hopefully we will see stock in Cape Town fairly soon. I have in fact placed an order.

I suspect you'll be happy Neil. Image quality is very good, in my opinion.

Can anyone who has received the XA-20 and used it comment on the improvements of the image stabilization over the XA-10, that is another strong consideration that I want to have before i make the upgrade.

Thank You
Luis

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your input on this. All of our tests so far have been at the highest bit rate settings in either MP4 (35mb) or AVCHD 50p.

It may well be that we have a faulty unit. Our XA10 had to go back to Canon because there were issues with how Final Cut read the files. Canon fixed it with a firmware upgrade and all was correct after that. So I am a little sceptical about "First Batch New Cameras"

As for the CMOS rolling shutter issue. This "Jello" effect is exaggerated when CMOS cameras are subjected to vibration, hence my comment about the IS system not helping in the XA25.

We also carried out some further tests today, working with the files in Final Cut Pro 7 ( our preferred NLE)
It appears that the Log & Transfer tool in FCP7 does not recognise the new high res AVCHD files produced on this camera. In fact it will only recognise the 50i stuff thus making the new AVCHD 50p codec redundant on this camera for all those out there working with Final Cut Pro 6/7

Work in progress !

Hi Dave,

It appears that the Log & Transfer tool in FCP7 does not recognise the new high res AVCHD files produced on this camera. In fact it will only recognise the 50i stuff thus making the new AVCHD 50p codec redundant on this camera for all those out there working with Final Cut Pro 6/7

Work in progress !

I believe that FCPX will recognize the files and then you could convert to ProRes for use in FCP6/7. I am all PC so this info is only from a friend who has used this approach with Sony files which are the same 28Mbps LPCM audio.

Ron Evans

Just unpacked my XA20 and handle unit.

One observation: even though the batteries are different between my G10 and the XA20, the charger charges all sets of batteries. I was lucky enough to be able to pick up a BP-828 battery when I picked up the camera, and the staff informed me that it could be charged using the same charger used with the XA10/G10 etc. (Model number is CG-800D in Japan.) Battery is happily charging as I write.

Can't wait to get started with it.

I suspect you'll be happy Neil. Image quality is very good, in my opinion.

Thanks Jeff, looking forward to getting mine. Cape Town supplier says SA is only likely to get stock towards end July, so I'll just have to be patient. Lots to learn from you guys here and the manual in the meantime.

Four deeply, deeply annoying things about the ought-to-be-wonderful WiFi / FTP functions:-

1) You only have the choice of a) Transmit All files on card or b) Transmit All 'new' files (those you have not already FTPd). In most cases I'd contend those options will be equal and in both cases I contend it's precisely not what you want. I need to be able to select specific files and send those, just as I can with viewing files for playback or deletion.

As implemented, my workaround is a) film to Card A only. b) Wipe Card B. c) Copy required files from Card A to Card B. d) Use either FTP option to send back what's now on Card B.

This is very tedious and frustrates the point of a fast-turnaround FTP send for newsgathering purposes.

2) Although you can configure 5 WiFi access points, you can only configure 1 FTP server. As I have different servers depending on what job I'm on, this is frustrating. I'd like 5 FTP server options too, please.

3) The progress bar on the FTP transfer has, on my tests, gone simply from 'none' to 'done' in one instant, which means all the while it's transferring my file it looks like it's stuck ... then suddenly it's done. This is rather disconcerting when sending stuff in the field - you need a moving indicator that suggests data transfer is actually underway, for confidence.

4) Despite asking you what directory you want the FTPd files put into on the remote server, Canon has seen fit to assume you actually want them put in a dated subdirectory of your chosen directory (Canon, if I wanted that, I'd have specified that!). This causes me a problem because we have a file-import utility 'watching' a specific directory on our FTP server for any incoming files, and then converts and moves them onto our Avid system. Because the XA20 insists on putting the files in a subdirectory, our watch utility doesn't pick them up so I have to phone back to base and get it done manually.

Actually there's a 5th, more minor, point. For speed, I'd like the first option in the playback MENU screen to be WiFi so I can get to it without scroll-and-press. At the moment the first option is Data-Code.

Canon, are you reading this? These are all things that could be fixed with minor software upgrade and I'd be really, really happy to provide input to this kind of improvement!!

Cheers
Dave

B&H now showing the XA20 in stock. I'm excited to see some more reviews/footage.

Dave, others must be rankled about those points you listed ^ .. suggest you send them all off to Canon.
They might offer to include you on their list of beta testers.

Canon UK - Support (http://www.canon.co.uk/Support/)

Cheers.

I would but I don't think Canon UK's support team will be talking to me at the moment after I sent them a very angry email after they'd told me the old-style batteries would "definitely" be compatible with the XA20 which of course they aren't.

(And, when I first wrote to tell them their advice was wrong they replied - clearly without reading down the original support ticket - "we don't know which camera you have but here's our compatibility list" despite me having made it clear from the outset I was considering the XA20. This kind of hopeless support really winds me up)

Anyone got Canon USA's support email address instead...?!

Regards
Dave

Take your pick >> Canon Global : Support (http://www.canon.com/support/) .. tho I'd go direct to the source in Japan with this.

For any complaints about camera features always start with, 'My many professional industry friends and I, are horrified to find .. etc etc.

Cheers.

[QUOTE=David Johns;1804174]I would but I don't think Canon UK's support team will be talking to me at the moment after I sent them a very angry email after they'd told me the old-style batteries would "definitely" be compatible with the XA20 which of course they aren't.



Agreed Canon UK got this wrong, I'm the first to research everything to the last detail, but I convinced myself that the BP-819 would fit as most of the main UK dealers ran an offer during May for a free BP-819 with the XA20/25 with pre-orders!

Indeed they did - and my free battery has turned up and surprise, surprise it is a BP820 of course!

Cheers
Dave

I've just received my XA20 and after going through the menu settings and shooting a few clips around the garden I'm very happy with it. There is one thing confusing me though. With the camera in Manual mode and recording mode set to TV, there is no indication on the display of what aperture the camera has selected. Isn't this a fairly basic requirement? I must be missing something here. Can someone please put me right here.

My only real grumble so far: No battery charger included. What a pain to have to have the camera unavaiable while batteries are being charged. I would happily have paid the extra to have it included in the box, insted of having to wait for the dealer to have to order one for me.

Also the programmable buttons are very small, but then I did want a small camera. Would it perhaps have helped to have a little raised dot or dots on the buttons so they could easily be found along the smooth body of the camera. Something like the dots used in braille.

Mine also does not show the f-stop in TV mode; I think that although the camcorder is in manual mode overall, because you have selected an automatic exposure setting, it does not feel the need to tell you what it's doing!

I agree with you about the buttons; nice to have but hard to press.

Regards
Dave

The reason why the camera does not show aperature in TV-mode might be the internal ND-filter, that engages in order to keep the aperature at the sweet spot for the lens. On the XA10 I believe that was F4.

If this is the case an aperature reading might not be that usefull.

sMine also does not show the f-stop in TV mode; I think that although the camcorder is in manual mode overall, because you have selected an automatic exposure setting, it does not feel the need to tell you what it's doing!

Thanks David for the reply. I still think it would be nice to have the f-stop displayed, but maybe that's just because I've always had it that way.

At the risk of sounding a bit challenged, I'm going to ask if anyone is having any problems undestanding the custom dial and button. The explanation of how it should work seems starightforward, but in practice it seems totally inconsistant. It just seems to react differently each time I use it. Is anyone else having any difficulty with it? If it's working for everyone else then obviously the fault is with me and I'm going to have to ask for some help.