Well, I put a query to CUSA about it and am waiting for a response, but meanwhile, we'll find out for sure on Monday when I drop by the Canon booth at NAB. My guess is that it *does* have a remote terminal but the listing was omitted from the specs page, as was the case with the G20.

Okay, just heard back from one of the top folks at Canon USA. Boy, that was quick!

Couple of things to clarify here:

1. Canon Inc. confirms that the color sampling for the HD-SDI output terminal is 4:2:2, not 4:2:0 as currently stated on the Canon USA web site. Steps are being taken to correct this error.

2. Confirmed: the VIXIA HF G30 as well as the XA20 and XA25 provide a standard 2.5mm remote control terminal (LANC type).

Hope this helps,

I understand trying to protect their higher end models by limiting to 4:2:0 but at the same time they may be limiting the sales of the XA25 in the process. Just how many truck feed uses can there be for a camera. To me it seems like it would be a a rather limited market of buyers who would typically want a higher end camera anyway.

If they would add 4:2:2 the amount of sales could be much higher given the already attractive price point. Companies typically make a lot more money off cheaper products than they do their flagship products.

Okay, just heard back from one of the top folks at Canon USA. Boy, that was quick!

Couple of things to clarify here:

1. Canon Inc. confirms that the color sampling for the HD-SDI output terminal is 4:2:2, not 4:2:0 as currently stated on the Canon USA web site. Steps are being taken to correct this error.

2. Confirmed: the VIXIA HF G30 as well as the XA20 and XA25 provide a standard 2.5mm remote control terminal (LANC type).

Hope this helps,

Scratch my last post. Lol

It amazes me how many companies get this wrong or sometimes refuse to answer the question or play dumb. 4:2:2 is like porn in this industry and everybody is afraid of talking about it.

Okay, just heard back from one of the top folks at Canon USA. Boy, that was quick!

Couple of things to clarify here:

1. Canon Inc. confirms that the color sampling for the HD-SDI output terminal is 4:2:2, not 4:2:0 as currently stated on the Canon USA web site. Steps are being taken to correct this error.

2. Confirmed: the VIXIA HF G30 as well as the XA20 and XA25 provide a standard 2.5mm remote control terminal (LANC type).

Hope this helps,


This news will make quite many happy :)

Okay, just heard back from one of the top folks at Canon USA. Boy, that was quick!

Couple of things to clarify here:

1. Canon Inc. confirms that the color sampling for the HD-SDI output terminal is 4:2:2, not 4:2:0 as currently stated on the Canon USA web site. Steps are being taken to correct this error.

2. Confirmed: the VIXIA HF G30 as well as the XA20 and XA25 provide a standard 2.5mm remote control terminal (LANC type).

Hope this helps,

That helps a lot, Chris! I thought 4:2:0 SDI was a bit odd. Thanks for pursuing this matter.

These little cameras are pretty impressive, especially that 20x zoom.

At $2699 there should be a WB switch or some way of moving between WB settings on the fly.

There is. My contact at CUSA confirms that the lower button on the left side of the folding OLED view screen can be assigned to manage WB settings on HF G30, XA20 and XA25. This is shown on the "Assignable Buttons" feature page in the CUSA web site:

Canon U.S.A. : Professional Imaging Products : XA25 (http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/products/professional_cameras/hd_video_cameras/xa25#Features)

Hope this helps,

Minimum illumination level on the XF100/300 sensor is 4.5 lux, on the C100/300/500 is 0.3 lux and on the XA20/25 sensor is 1.2 lux. Two stops between the XA20/25 and the other two sensors.
I'd take lux figures on cameras like this with a huge pinch of salt. Remember "zero lux"? Quite accurate - had an infra red illuminator - but didn't really tell you a lot..... :-)

The trouble is that the figures take no account of whether electronic noise reduction is used, frame averaging, or even the noise figure at the illumination stated.

In other words, all they tell you is that the camera will produce an image at the lux level stated. How poor a quality it is - that's another thing altogether.

That is great Chris, really great news!

B&H has the prices for pre-order: $2,699 and $2,199.

Canon XA25 HD Professional Camcorder 8443B002 B&H Photo Video


Canon XA20 HD Professional Camcorder 8453B002 B&H Photo Video

oh yes, can't wait,
now, if we can also have 50Mbps 1080/60p PMW camera this year,
please?

Most likely a XAVC 1080p60 cam recording at 200Mbps would be the update to the PMW lineup.

I was just browing the specs, and it looks like maybe they've dropped internal flash memory on these new ones?

The XA10 had 64GB internal...

I was just browing the specs, and it looks like maybe they've dropped internal flash memory on these new ones?

The XA10 had 64GB internal...

Yes, they did.

XF 100 has 50Mbps MPEG-2 Recording 4:2:2 Color Sampling for 2,499 and more professional looking.
I wonder if the XA 25 will have better low light?

It's interesting to see that the price of the XF100 has dropped substantially. That leads me to suspect that Canon might be bringing out an XF100 replacement. Or possibly they're going to ditch the XF100 instead, and let the XA25 take its place, with the XF300 serving as a demarcation point between their 4:2:0 prosumer cams and their 4:2:2 capable line.

I can see a lot of buyers opting for the XA25 over the XF100 just to get the longer lens and other goodies the XA25 offers, even at the cost of having to sacrifice the 50 MB/s output the XF100 is capable of.

As good as the X100 and its bigger sibling, the XF300 are, they both seem to be at the point where a refresh and even a redesign might be order.

I was just browing the specs, and it looks like maybe they've dropped internal flash memory on these new ones?

The XA10 had 64GB internal...

It does look like the internal memory has been dropped. I checked out the B&H website for their listings of the XA25/20 cams and found notes indicating that external memory is required for both.

Most likely a XAVC 1080p60 cam recording at 200Mbps would be the update to the PMW lineup.
Interesting thought....... But it's worth bearing in mind that the higher the frame rate, the more the efficiency advantage to long-GOP recording.

The logic is that if you keep the I frames at the same time interval (1/2 second, say) you get about twice as many difference frames if you double the frame rate. Since the I frames are much larger than difference frames, it follows that doubling the frame rate doesn't mean doubling the bitrate for comparable quality. That's why for 30fps AVC-HD has a bitrate of 24Mbs, and 60fps is 28Mbs.

For top end gear (F5/55) then yes, expect I-frame only XAVC. But at the lower end, PMW200 etc, I'd say long-GOP XAVC is far more likely for reasons of economy, and quite likely around the 50Mbs mark.

Just don't underestimate the computing power needed to deal with such. I do think it will come - but unless you really need 50/60p there's a lot to be said in terms of ease of handling in staying with XDCAM 422 and 50 Mbs, as no broadcasters are transmitting such. (And are unlikely to ever do so IMO - 50/60p isn't in current transmissions specs, and any next gen broadcast system is likely to leapfrog 1080p/50 straight to 4k.)

28mbps AVCHD 2.0 IMHO is not broadcast compliant at all. The example I saw with waves breaking on a shore in the Caribbean was absolutely horrible in terms of macroblocking. I agree that the GH3 hit the sweet spot in terms of 1080p60 and Long-GOP. There is totally room for that spec in XAVC, with 10-bit and 4:2:2 as extra included. My opinion involves 100Mbps Long-GOP rather than 50, that would be more broadcast compliant and hence more EBU/BBC compliant.

28mbps AVCHD 2.0 IMHO is not broadcast compliant at all. The example I saw with waves breaking on a shore in the Caribbean was absolutely horrible in terms of macroblocking.
Sorry - I didn't mean to imply I considered 28Mbs AVC-HD broadcast compliant (nor 24Mbs AVC-HD for standard frame rates, for that matter :-) ) - I mentioned the 24/28Mbs versions to demonstrate that doubling the framerate does not mean you have to double the bitrate in a long-GOP system.

(And also worth saying that especially with AVC based systems, all coders are far from equal, especially real time ones. For a given image and a given bitrate, one coder might do a good job, another give poor results. That's especially true in cheaper consumer grade cameras - where you're currently more likely to get 28Mbs AVC-HD.)

And yes, it's quite clear that XAVC has long-GOP (with 10 bit, 4:2:2 and 50p) within the spec as well as the I-frame only version. I'll keep an open mind over bitrate, but as long-GOP is supposed to give an efficiency advantage of about 2-3x over comparable I-frame only at "normal" frame rates, I'd say it's reasonable to expect something like 4x at double frame rates. I agree with the 200Mbs for I-frame and a quarter of that is how I got to (guess at) 50Mbs as a sensible figure for comparable long-GOP.

But yes, it's speculation - we'll see.

28mbps AVCHD 2.0 IMHO is not broadcast compliant at all. The example I saw with waves breaking on a shore in the Caribbean was absolutely horrible in terms of macroblocking. I agree that the GH3 hit the sweet spot in terms of 1080p60 and Long-GOP. There is totally room for that spec in XAVC, with 10-bit and 4:2:2 as extra included. My opinion involves 100Mbps Long-GOP rather than 50, that would be more broadcast compliant and hence more EBU/BBC compliant.

What is the lowest level (Least expensive) of compression necessary to avoid the macro blocking you mentioned above? JVC 600 series do it?

The Blackmagic Hyperdeck would get you ProRes HQ, which is 220Mbps. This is not camera dependent as this is an external recorder. Ideally, pick a camera for the best uncompresed picture, then choose an external recorder.

50Mbps MOV would be a nice addition to the XA25, which would give more incentive for that cam with it's HD-SDI port.

Honestly 50mbits mpeg2 can macro block a lot as well. In fact with a good encoder AVCHD at 28mbits can look just as good as 50mbits outside of the 4:2:2 color of course. I consider 50mbits with mpeg2 to be the minimum for decent quality but it by no means is a great quality format. Plus remember mpeg2 can only use blocks that are 8x8 pixels so if it does macro lock you may notice it more with the naked eye.

Honestly for keying I have had much better results from 4:2:0 AVCHD than I have had from 4:2:2 mpeg2 due to the smaller AVCHD block sizes during sudden movement. If nothing moves the mpeg2 looked great but for action shots against greenscreen the mpeg2 would fall apart in the heavy motion blur areas much quicker.

Then again I was using a GH2 hacked to 100mbits so it may be a slightly unfair comparison.

My take is that the XA-series target buyer is the moderate budget event videographer (think weddings and Bar/Bat Mitzvahs) and higher end home user who wants good toys for their daughter's soccer games and son's birthday parties. If it looks good on their home theater projection system (or 60"'+ flat screen) and better then their neighbors handi-cam, they are very very happy. That community is not all that concerned about 4:2:0 vs. 4:2:2 or 8-bit vs. 10-bit or SDI. On the other hand, an easy way to dump to DVD or Blu-Ray is important.

Then again I was using a GH2 hacked to 100mbits so it may be a slightly unfair comparison.
In which case it wasn't AVC-HD...... The latter defines a sub-set of H264, the top level of which is 24/28Mbs.

If it's 100Mbs, it's not AVC-HD, by definition.

My take is that the XA-series target buyer is the moderate budget event videographer (think weddings and Bar/Bat Mitzvahs) and higher end home user who wants good toys for their daughter's soccer games and son's birthday parties. If it looks good on their home theater projection system (or 60"'+ flat screen) and better then their neighbors handi-cam, they are very very happy. That community is not all that concerned about 4:2:0 vs. 4:2:2 or 8-bit vs. 10-bit or SDI. On the other hand, an easy way to dump to DVD or Blu-Ray is important.

I think you've pretty much nailed the target market. But don't forget the documentary and corporate users whose main content distribution conduits will be streaming video sites like Youtube and Vimeo, (plus their own websites), who happen to have very small budgets for video production. These users will also want the best possible image quality they can get for their limited budgets, and cameras like the XA20/25 will fill that bill quite nicely. For such users, it isn't necessary that the cameras are capable of recording with a broadcast-compliant codec.

With the new five way IS some incredible shots will be possible. Mount it in a Merlin with an external recorde and do POV steadicam work cheaply,

For such users, it isn't necessary that the cameras are capable of recording with a broadcast-compliant codec.

Point accepted. And for compelling content all equipment and codec rules are forgiven as long as the outlet can read it in time for the 6 PM news, etc.

Don't forget how much can be forgiven when the client has money for airtime.

With the new five way IS some incredible shots will be possible. Mount it in a Merlin with an external recorde and do POV steadicam work cheaply,

Maybe these new Canon cams will be different... but I've always found it best to turn any lens/camera IS system OFF when doing Merlin Steadicam work.

This I think is the recommended thing to do too - it's a long while since I looked at the Steadicam instruction book!

I admit that my Merlin experience is only with Canon 7D and Canon C100 (both with and without IS lenses) and a tiny Panasonic TM900 (which has an incrediblly effective hybrid IS system). However, in all cases, my best results have always been obtained with IS turned off with each cam/lens system. Otherwise you can get the same issues as when you pan on a tripod with the IS turned on - the image jumping to catch up type effect. This is why some Canon DSLR lenses have a 2 position IS switch as I'm sure we all know, one allowing horizontal panning without this problem (but still giving stabilisation in the vertical plane).

Sure, until someone gets their hands on these new Canon's we'll not know for sure how the IS performs with stabilisers like the Merlin - but just I'm raising a note of caution here.

OK, let's return to the main topic on hand, discussing these new cams from Canon.

Electronic IS acts differently than OIS.

Hi

What's the difference between the two codecs, AVCHD and MP4? Some JVC models uses dual codecs but in that case the alternatives are AVCHD or MPEG-2. But what is MP4 and when to use that?

Regards,

/Bo

AVCHD is a codec (H.264), mp4 is a wrapper, that can contain various codecs, for example XDCAM EX (a variant of MPEG-2) or H.264

I just pre-ordered the XA20 and I have a question regarding the mp4 and AVCHD record options, specifically their compatibility with FCPX ingestion. I shoot mostly high school sports (football) and would like to record in mp4 35Mbps for the quality and slow motion possibilities.

Also, will I have any issues capturing with 59.98 progressive or will I have to step down to 24Mbps and 59.98 interlaced?

My current set up is an XH-a1s with an FS-CF Pro DTE unit.

Thanks for the advice.

Great discussion here. XA25 should be great for the multicam work. HDSDI 300+ feet down a decent quality BNC terminated cable, no problem. No HDMI to HDSDI converter needed...

I just pre-ordered the XA20 and I have a question regarding the mp4 and AVCHD record options, specifically their compatibility with FCPX ingestion. I shoot mostly high school sports (football) and would like to record in mp4 35Mbps for the quality and slow motion possibilities.

Also, will I have any issues capturing with 59.98 progressive or will I have to step down to 24Mbps and 59.98 interlaced?

My current set up is an XH-a1s with an FS-CF Pro DTE unit.

Thanks for the advice.

I shoot multicam now with NX5U ( 60i ), CX700 ( 60P ), NX30 ( 60P ) and XR500 ( 60i ) just edit all on a 60i timeline in Edius 6.07 with no problems. Also shoot all my GoPro stuff 60P. Definitely intend going all 1920x1080 60P when I change the NX5U and XR500.

Ron Evans

Thanks Ron.

I'll give it a go.

Can the XF replacements be far behind?

You have to wonder, considering that Canon recently dropped the recommended price of the XF100 from
$2999 to $2499.

I beleive that was not a price drop it, it was a correction where the announcement or something has listed the prices wrong.

Price drop from original $3,300 to $2,499
https://shop.usa.canon.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/OrderItemDisplay?src=iNet&langId=-1&catalogId=10051&storeId=10051&krypto=NsGqPYzeRD1Qh%2F5Y2m%2FBSd5W0SKZrjm3nrOPWDH0viRWXuWEMll8SbKYjClM2XnzIg04ZzQcOkMB%0AkpartVAbtF h7Z16J5qtBxhvZkiZBEDVBRl2davcNpK0OChIuhdC5NIqD2uAcYZ5T4e0wlBNOTxwr%0AiNV%2Fbogo8hMzLqt1OUSKiD34gZ2uG y5e6%2FSHXvoF74OxVB%2FyQex2ObENAy0E8A%3D%3D&ddkey=http:CusaAjaxPredictiveSearch

? What type of N/D would one use on these cameras?

My mistake, I didn't read post all the way. I was thinking of the XA25 & XA20 and how they had listed the prices incorrectly during the annoucement of the camera.

The price drop of the XF100 is surprising, they must have a lot of stock to move.

Maybe a XF101 with 3 position ND and 50 MBPS for 3,299?

That would work... but to offer a credible upgrade from the XA25, the XF101 you propose would have to have at least a 20x lens. A camera like that would pose a problem for sales of the XF300, which has an 18x lens.

That said, I can easily see the XF100 going the way of the dodo bird because of this dilemma, with the end result that no intermediate model will exist between the XA25 and the XF300.

" A camera like that would pose a problem for sales of the XF300, which has an 18x lens."
I believe it's more of an apples to oranges dilemma when you start comparing those 2 cameras because the 300 series utilizes 3 chips versus 1 in the 100 series. Also the price nearly doubles.

Two questions - I think I read that Canon was going to release a HD/SDI recorder for the XA-25 that plugs into and perhaps mounts to the camera. I don't see it at B & H - is there any info on this yet ? Secondly, I am unsure if there is likely to be any quality difference between the 35 Mbps MP4 and 28 Mbps AVC recording options for 1080 p60. AVC is more efficient, so perhaps they will be similar ?

Two questions - I think I read that Canon was going to release a HD/SDI recorder for the XA-25 that plugs into and perhaps mounts to the camera. I don't see it at B & H - is there any info on this yet ? Secondly, I am unsure if there is likely to be any quality difference between the 35 Mbps MP4 and 28 Mbps AVC recording options for 1080 p60. AVC is more efficient, so perhaps they will be similar ?

I wouldn't think there would be a huge amount of difference between the two codecs where image quality is concerned, although the MP4 might be easier to edit. In any case, both are compressed formats.

Having once had an XA10 (and having sold it in error), I'm following the XA20/25 cameras with considerable interest. If I don't end up getting something like a Panasonic AC130, I might go with an XA20. One thing I want to know is whether the XA20/25 will offer advanced image adjustments like knee, pedestal, detail coring, etc., and custom picture profiles that can be stored on SD cards and loaded into the camera.

Guys... correct me if i'm off base here. But i think people have got a bit mixed up about the difference between 35 mbps MP4 and 28 mbps AVC. From my understanding the reason for the different container format is due to standards. The actual codec is the same (both h264). The AVC format is bound by the standard which maxes out at 28 mbps so to have a higher bitrate they have to chose a container that doesn't have that limitation... hence the shift to the open MP4 container. But again this is just my understanding and there could obviously be other technical reasons within Canon. But i'd guess this is not far from the truth and what gives me this clue is the fact that they are both h264 *container* formats i.e. both being encoded in h264 and just stored differently for the most part.

On another note... just wanted to chime in and mention that i seen a bit of a review on a Chines (or was it Korean? forgive my ignorance oriental earthlings!) web site and the quality really disappointed me. Even at 35mb/s! I was hoping it'd at least be on par with the samples i've seen from the old TM900 at the very least! :( Perhaps something wasn't right. Apologize as i cant remember where i got the damn link to the review... i'll have to try find it again.

I cannot attest to the validity of this video, just scouring the Internet for anything.
Canon VIXIA HF G30 - YouTube

Ok i found the original link i was talking about that had some footage. Color me unimpressed. :( Perhaps he re compressed the videos as there are overlays. So i'll reserve full judgement. But i'm still not impressed at all IQ wise. :(

�y�¬Ž›�M—Ç‚Ì�TŠ§ Electric Zooma!�z‘æ611‰ñ:ŽŠ‚ê‚è�s‚*‚¹‚è‚̃nƒ“ƒhƒwƒ‹ƒh�AƒLƒ„ƒmƒ“�uXA25�v -AV Watch (http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/series/zooma/20130417_596140.html)

I checked out that link, and saw some of the vids posted there. Can't say I was overly impressed either. Much of the footage does look overcompressed and also seems to have a strange, almost interlaced, 'live TV' kind of look to it even in 29p/24p modes. I also noticed that the camera didn't seem to fare well in the autofocus (AF) test.

I'm reserving judgment too - it's possible these samples have come from pre-production cameras, since the expected release date for the XA20/25 is still just a little over a month away. That's lots of time for Canon to work out any firmware bugs.

I'll wait until better quality samples surface on Youtube and Vimeo before I draw any conclusions.

Though the term Oriental is sometimes used in the UK, unless you're discussing objects people from Asian countries prefer to be known as Asians.
If you see jp in a link tagline it usually means Japan/Japanese.
I also have some interest in the XA25 and wondering when there will be more samples and pre-release reviews available