I recently just bought a Sony ECM-44B wired lav mic for some interview project I'm going to be working on. Since I'm shooting on a 7D, I'm running the mic directly into a Tascam-40 audio recorder.

With some preliminary tests, I've got to say, I'm a little underwhelmed by my current set up. I'm not much of an audio guy, but I know the basics. Overall, I'm getting a very low level from my setup, I have to crank the input gain level almost all the way up just to get something acceptable. And yes, I have the headphone monitor level all the way up just so I can hear it above the sound in the room.

Don't get me wrong, it's definitely usable, but I'd say the worst part is, there is also a health amount of noise in the signal. I would be worried that the 44B might be defective, but even when I unplug the mic from the Tascam, I can still hear noise (different noise, but just a noticeable), I'm assuming because the gain on the recorder is turned nearly all the way up.

Am I now going to have to buy an external mixer like a JuiceLink or BeachTek to use as a preamp? If so, what benefit do I get from recording into the Tascam as opposed to just going straight into the camera?

Battery in the mic verified to be fresh and installed properly?
Mic mounted in proper position on the talent?
Recorder set for external mic in with phantom power OFF?
Recorder set to mono recording mode?

(Note: Preamps are noisier when the inputs are unterminated as when you've unplugged the mic than they are when they are in normal use.)

As a no-cost test, I would seek out a friend, coworker or friendly store with an XLR audio mixer that you can connect your ECM-44 with, and test out using your own headphones.
If the results are the same as when connected to your recorder, then the mic may have a problem with unusually low output level.
My guess is you'll have much better clean gain using a mixer or preamp.
The mic preamps of these basic recorders are generally not clean enough for low-output mics in spoken-word situations.

Steve, everything you mentioned I've already checked. The only difference is that I was mostly recording in Duel Mode, which actually records two mono tracks form the same input, just one is reduced by -6 db as a safety.

I might be over worrying just a bit, the signal level is usable, and I could probably remove the noise in post (although combined, the problem is amplified, as in boosting the level in post will also increase the noise.)

I just expected better out of the Sony 44B. In fact, I get a much stronger signal, lower noise, and frankly, crisper audio out from just using the internal mics from the DR-40 (though also more room noise, wind noise, harsher plosives).

I didn't mention it before, but the audio from the Sony 44B, also sounds a tad "flat" at least compared to the DR-40's internals. I might just be nit picking, though from online samples I picked the 44B over the 77B because the 77B sounded too high, dry, and harsh. The 44B sounded warmer and smoother from the samples, but now that I got it, it sounds a tad flat, as though slightly muffled. (Yes going by online samples, is a dubious strategy.)

Is professional audio recorded "flatter" with the expectation that the dynamic range will be stretched back out in post? I've never heard this in audio, but this is done in Cinematography in order to protect the exposure's dynamic range. Record in a "flat" color space, and then stretch it back out on post. Might this be what I'm hearing?

Are the DR-40's record parameters set correctly? Manual, Mono, Ext. Mic (left channel). Phantom Power engaged and the battery removed from the 44's power module, (or Phantom Power off, battery in place)
The ECM 44 inherently has a rather low output (-53dB) and the DR40 as well as the other budget recorders have 'less the stellar' noisy preamps. Some of the noise maybe from HP amplification, also common with budget recorders.
"I picked the 44B over the 77B because the 77B sounded too high, dry, and harsh"
- Compared to the 44? How did you come to that conclusion? FWIW, the 77 has a higher output. (-36dB) (also more expensive)

Overall, I'm getting a very low level from my setup... but I'd say the worst part is, there is also a health amount of noise in the signal. I would be worried that the 44B might be defective

I bought a DR-40 and had the same result. I ended up buying an ART USB Dual Pre portable mic preamp and a DR-40 and testing them against the Panasonic GH2's built-in mic preamp.

The DR-40 was simply awful, low levels, very noisy. The ART unit was better, but the output was low and the mic input was seriously non-linear when turned up nearly all the way - which was necessary to get a decent level. I tested both with several different mics (AKG and Sennheiser dynamic, Seenheiser G@ wireless, RODE M3, Oktava mc012, Sennheiser mke300, AudioTechnica Pro70) and used a Sescom adapter cable plugged into the GH2.

To summarize, the RODE M3 plugged directly into the GH2 with a simple XLR to 3.5mm adapter cable provided the best result, with good levels and very low noise. I also had very good results with the Pro70 directly into the GH2. At some point I'm going to test the H4n but based on my results with my H1 I expect it to be significantly better than the DR-40.

Denez,
That's probably about right for the setup you are using. I bought the Tascm DR-100 and the levels are definitely hotter and cleaner.

Also when you have to crank your headphone level all the way up that introduces a fair amount of noise on the monitoring end that may not be in the recorded piece. I don't believe you said how clean the recording was?

Your issue is more then likely the preamps of the DR-40. I hated spending the extra money for the DR-100, but it was worth it on several levels.

Rick, yep, I checked all the settings that you mentioned. The Sony 44B will not run off of phantom power (though I think the 77B will.)

I bought the 44B from an ebay seller who had the 77B for sale at the same price. (Yes, the mic is used and perhaps this is it.) I read on some forums that the 44B was more popular with film schools and I found a comparison between the two on YouTube (non-scientific.) All things aside, if the 77B has a higher output, I'm now wishing I had purchased it instead.

Now I'm looking at either a BeachTek or JuicedLink to use as a Preamp, but I'm starting to feel like I'm just throwing money at the problem with out really knowing what's going on.

"The Sony 44B will not run off of phantom power (though I think the 77B will.) "
Sorry, I didn't realize the 44's power module doesn't support Phantom Pwr. like the 55 and 77. In that case the PP should be disabled on the recorder. You'll have to check the mic with other preamps to assess it performance. I would suspect the 44's low sensitivity along with the recorder's preamp noise is the issue so a high quality preamp would help and good to have with any mic.
FWIW, In my line level evaluation, any audible difference between my DR40 and 744 is negligible. (all parameters equal in the front end)

thanks for the info Rick. What is the 744?

I just talked to a friend who uses the Sony 77B with a Zoom H4N and has similar problem with the low level output. He said he has since used an off-brand cheaper lav mic straight into the camera (though it was through the XLR inputs of a Sony EX-1) and was much happier with the results.

I'm not sure I can afford a "high quality preamp" right now. Could I get away with using either the BeachTek DXA-2T or the JuicedLink RM202, as pre-amps going into the Tascam DR-40? Are they too cheap? Would I get any real benefit going from these pre-amps into the Tascam, as opposed to just going from the preamp straight to the camera? Should I be concerned at all that the output from these pre-amps is just a 1/8" phono jack and not XLR?

Sound Devices 744 (portable, four-track audio recorder w/ time code)
I have no experience with the the BeachTek, JuicedLink or ARTs. If it's in your budget, the Sound Devices preamps/mixers are arguably the best. However YMMV depending on your skill level.

"Should I be concerned at all that the output from these pre-amps is just a 1/8" phono jack and not XLR?"
-- It depends on what camcorder and/or audio recorder you have. For the DR-40, XLR connectors for sure (@ line level) The same, if your camera has XLRs. If your camera only has 1/8" inputs, use the DR-40.

"Would I get any real benefit going from these pre-amps into the Tascam, as opposed to just going from the preamp straight to the camera?"
If your using a DSLR, the DR-40 would sound much better (with or w/o an ext. preamp). If your camcorder has XLR inputs, an external audio recorder would usually be of little benefit, feeding the camcorder line level from a external preamp.

The DR40 would come in handy just the same, if you need to record additional sound sources, S/FX or other 'audio only' material.

Now I'm looking at either a BeachTek or JuicedLink to use as a Preamp, but I'm starting to feel like I'm just throwing money at the problem with out really knowing what's going on.
Denez - this ".. throwing money ... is really not a good feeling. Personally, I'm in the "like to really know what is going on" camp although this can be very time consuming depending on the situation.

One thing to research is if there are any reports of counterfeit gear of the type you have and, if so, how to tell the good from the bad.

Since a recorder like the DR-40 is one of the things on my list of potential things to get I read with interest the comment Al Gardner made earlier about the DR100. A quick Internet check (Amazon) had something interesting on its specs. The 100 has three input Gain settings (Standard input level); High (-58 dBu), Mid (-36 dBu), and Low (-14 dBu). With regard to the DR-40 I didn't find a similar Gain setting specs for the XLR inputs so I couldn't make a good comparison. Since the ECM 44 has a -53 dB output (Note: I don't know what the difference is between dB and dBu), then the DR100 would seem to have a good input match.

As for the pre amp idea, my thought is to minimize the amount of "stuff" in the chain. However, having said that, I'm using a JuicedLink CX211 (their basic unit and a discontinued model) because I had to have a pre amp and a way to go to a mini jack. This is a basic 2-channel model but the nice thing is it provides some controls and features that my camera didn't have so there can be an upside. As one acquires more mics the pre amp can be a nice equalizing factor.

might this work? It's the only affordable mixer that I can find that has XLR out:

Azden Pro Audio System - Mixers FMX-20 (http://www.expandore.com/product/pro_audio/Azden/Mixers/FMX-20.htm)

I've never used Azden gear.
but yes... it would 'work'... but... Azden gear is not highly regarded.. by professional audio folk and on this and other sound for picture forums.
Having a cheap noisy preamp/mixer would likely be worse than the ECM44 / DR-40 by itself or the 44 direct to your non-DSRL camcorder.
I think your best-cheapest option may be to find a higher sensitivity mic.

any suggestions on a comparable quality mic to the 44B or 77B that is in the sub $300 range?

RODE Microphones - Lavalier (http://www.rodemic.com/mics/lavalier)
The RODE lavalier is 'affordable' and appears to have good specs.
( -33.5dB re 1 Volt/Pascal (21.00mV @ 94 dB SPL) +/- 2 dB @ 1kHz )
It also has interchangeable connector options so for instance, the same mic can be used in a hardwired XLR configuration or with a wireless system.
I have never used one, but they are highly regarded by trusted sources. Search this forum for more info. I recall Chadfish and Guy Cochran did test/reviews a year ago or so when it was released. Both were well done.

You know Rick is right in that not a lot of people here use Azden brand mixers. But honestly it's been so long since I really took a look at Azden mixers, there's a chance there is something workable in that brand. It might be worth a shot to try one.

After all Azden is a original equipment manufacturer for many other brands that are re-branded. So there's a chance we may have already used a Azden product by another name and been satisfied with it.

The Azden FMX-42a appears pretty decent.

Here's a review on it. Azden FMX 42-A Field Mixer (Review) | Anything Sound (http://www.anythingsound.com/2012/01/25/azden-fmx-42-a-field-mixer-review/)

And if you look on B&H there are some very positive reviews. I wouldn't rule it out.

Ok, so I just borrowed a Sony 88B lav mic from a friend to do some comparison tests between it and the 44B.

I would say for the most part, they performed about the same, the 88B had a bit more dynamic range. Both had low output signal, and the same noise level. So it seems clear the issue is with the Tascam DR-40's preamps (I also tested it with a cheap-o hand held dynamic mic, mostly the same deal.)

The input level on the DR-40 was at 68 percent. I have attached a sample of the audio of the 44B, which peaked at -18.5 dB. I then normalized this to -2 dB in Adobe Audition, so you could hear the noise level at a practical amplitude. Also, I'm attaching a screen shot of the spectral graph and amplitude statistics from Audition prior to normalization.

That's a bit noisy, it's difficult to distinguish the electronic from the acoustical borne BG noise.
I've never used my DR40's own preamps so out of curiosity I plugged in an ECM55, with an near spent AA battery. The mic was plugged directly into the DR40's XLR-L, mono mode, Phantom Pwr. off, 44.1k/16bit .wav. The DR40 rec level was set to 75, whilst recording the meters were peaking around -8.0dBFS, then peak-normalized to -2.0dBFS in Sound Forge Pro. The noise floor sits around -48dBFS. Similar to your test, the electronic/acoustic noise floors blend together. Not great, but better than I anticipated.

Rick, I'd say you definitely got less noise in your recording (even though you had the gain on the DR40 set a tad higher). I was recording in my bedroom at night, and only my desktop computer would have been producing fan noise at the time.

After doing a bit more research (particularly the video blogs posted by JuicedLink - biased, I know), I've determined that neither the H4N nor the DR40 have powerful enough preamps for such low output condenser mics. This means I will need to get a mixer/preamp.

Now it just comes down to cost. I know you said that the brand was of questionable reputation, but there is someone on Craigslist selling a Azden FMX 32 for $200, which maybe I can haggle down. 3 xlr inputs, xlr output, phantom power, level meter. It does not camera mount, which is the biggest draw back.

There is also some deals on a few JuicedLink DT454's on Ebay. It's a discontinued model, if that matters. 2 xlr, 1 unbalanced 1/8" input (though it can take 2 channels from the tip and ring?), 1/8" output, phantom power, level meter, AutoGain Control correction, and Hi-LO gain sensitivity adjustment.

Any suggestions, recommendations, warnings?

As I stated, I have no hands-on experience with either Azden or JuicedLinks gear. The general consensus is, Juiced Link makes good reliable products (in the US), plus JuicedLink's president (Robert Rozak) frequents the DVi and DVx audio forums whom one can talk directly too. (Try that with Azden) Personally, I would choose the JL over Azden any day
That said, I don't know this for sure, but.. the JuicedLink DT454 is designed more for DSLR's unbalanced mic level input, and does not have balanced +4dB XLR outputs, which is what you want to use with the DR-40... and/or a camcorder w/ XLR inputs.
BTW, what camera do you plan to be using?

I'm using a Canon 7D. I actually have the firmware update, so truthfully, auto gain override is a low priority. Phantom power is also low on the list, since the Sony 44b doesn't have it (plus I would rather not risk the drain on the recorder batteries.). For the promo, interview, event, and personal projects that I work on, 2 XLR inputs is enough (especially since the DR40 only has 2). Being able to mount it to the cam or recorder, is a big plus, as is level metering, since I'm often the only guy on the shoot.

I don't really know the benefits of balanced XLR, versus unbalanced 1/8". I think it means that you can have a longer cable with out interference, perhaps since something like the JuiceLink would be either tethered to the recorder or to the camera, it would need a few inches of cable at most. Still XLR out sounds better.

I don't know anything about noise floors, impedance, harmonic distortion, or nominal input levels.

I'm a videographer not a audio guy, but that still means that I often need to record sound quickly, easily, and with usable results. I'm not looking for pro level audio with pro level options and capabilities. I just want to avoid spending a few hundred dollars and then realizing it's not what I needed or wanted or simply does not solve my problem.

Right now, the 44b lav straight into the DR40 is not producing acceptable results. Case in point: would I have saved money in the long run by spending more money on a better recorder? Or a better lav mic?

Sorry if I sounded a little testy at the end there. I appreciate your help, I'm just a bit overwhelmed with information and my indecisiveness.

I've basically come to the conclusion that that what I'll end up getting is either a JuicedLink or a BeachTek, its just that the Azden happened to seem like a good deal for under $200. Though they have some cheaper options, the JuicedLink and BeachTeks that look good to me are more in the $300 - $450 range. Since this is all steaming from my desire to get my lav mic to have less noise, $400 seems like it doesn't have the right cost to benefit ratio.

Now the challenge is, which JuicedLink; which BeachTek?

Denez - just thinking of what one might want down the road and I'll bring up this thought. The latest update for Final Cut Pro X (don't know what you're using so it may be different) has the capability for three audio tracks. Apple - Final Cut Pro X - What?s New (http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/whats-new/) (~ 1/3rd of the way down the page).

For example, Interview, Boom, and Ambience. The Ambience mic in the example is in stereo so lets make that four tracks.

Granted, you're basically working solo right now but what about in the future? The Ambience mic would be really nice to have and it'd add some really nice audio if it could be included.

I've got some higher priority items to work on right now but I'm wondering how to accomplish four tracks and it looks like I'll probably have to get a four-track recorder to go this route.

Frankly, I'm basically solo too, although I've got some cheap labor available (wife). Er, well, make that 'maybe not so cheap' but at least still available. More or less.

John
I'm confused about the 3 audio tracks?
What edit system wouldn't allow 3 audio tracks? Maybe I'm misunderstanding?

Al - There are various editing systems and I know about only two, one of which is FCPX; hence my statement to couch how many audio tracks that could be edited.

As an aside, the third track that was mentioned is for Ambience and is in fact stereo so that would actually make four tracks total.

John, maybe I'm missing something but I would imagine ALL editing programs support multiple audio tracks. I'm using Premiere Pro and you can have upto 99 video and 99 audio tracks... but this is off topic.

Can anyone tell me how much concern I should have for running the Juiced Link or Beachtek into the Tascam DR40? My only concern is going from 1/8 inch stereo out to XLR, in order to connect them. I don't think any of the Juiced Links or Beachtek's have XLR out.

If the JL has only a 1/8" unbalanced mic level outputs (which I believe it does) you would need a proper unbalancing adapter or cable. Even then, your still going through the Tascam's preamps. You may be just as well off running the JL directly into the 7D. (on manual gain of course) I have no experience with this type set-up so other opinions should be considered.

Rick, yeah going from 1/8" to XLR has always sounded like a negative, but I don't have a solid reason that this is so. If it's just that I need to get an adapter, 1/8" mini to XLR adapter costs only $6 or so.

Anyway, here is my new possible solution - instead of adding a $400 mixer to make my $150 recorder have decent preamps, why not just sell the recorder and buy a better recorder?

The two good looking options are:

The Marantz 661

or

The Tascam DR-60D

Would either of these have comprable preamps to using a Juiced Link? Better?

If you're looking for a decent portable preamp to use with your DR-40, the new Roland DUO-CAPTURE EX ($200) is worth looking at. I tried it at Guitar Center and the preamps are very quiet, significantly better than the DR-40.

I decided against it because I wanted a simple integrated solution, but the sound was quite good.

DUO-CAPTURE EX: USB Audio Interface | Roland U.S. (http://www.rolandus.com/products/details/1248/498)

That may not work so well with the DR40 unless it has nominal +4dB analog outputs. I see what appears to be 1/4" outputs, but Roland does not state op. level or bal/unbal. Likely unbal -10dB for monitor inputs. Otherwise it looks interesting for computer based acquisition.

Good call, specs list the nominal output level as -6dB.

It seems odd that Roland would choose an output level that is higher than consumer -10dB and lower than professional +4dB.

Great thread. Lots of info. I too am using a Tascam DR-40 with a Sony ECM-44B. I love it. I run the input gain at about 50% and have the limiter on. The levels are lower than perfect, but I fix that in post. I run it lower to eliminate clipping.

If you looking for an external mixer, have you looked at the Rolls MX54s Promix Plus? I own one because it runs on batteries and didn't break the bank. I've never used it with the Tascam/Sony combo as I've not had a reason to.

Rolls Corporation - Real Sound - Products MX54s Promix Plus (http://www.rolls.com/product.php?pid=MX54s)