Hello All!

I have a tough decision to make and was hoping you all could chime in with your perspectives to help me make a better informed decision. I've been in production for nearly 20 years but haven't worked as an independent producer for the past 10 years and so all of my personal production equipment has gone out of date. The most glaring is my camera. I still have a Sony PD100A. After what seems like months of comparing specs of current camera models, I've decided upon an EX3. I don't want to buy it new at $8500 as I know Sony is bound to come up with a replacement soon since it has already had a long career on the market. I have decided that my budget is going to be $5500 or less and so this puts me into the realm of a used EX3. Enough background... Here are the questions...


Would you buy a used EX3 off of Ebay?

I am an experienced ebay shopper but have never made such a huge ticket purchase before. What really concerns me is I have found this listing which is ultra fishy to me.
Sony XDCAM EX PMW EX3 Camcorder Black 0027242731837 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/230954956209?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)

I have scrutinized the ebay listing in that link and have come to the conclusion that somehow a scammer has hacked into poor Anita's Ebay account and is offering high end items with $2500 buy it now. Anita has over 13,000 feedbacks with a 100% rating and all from selling items for under $50 and now suddenly she is selling big ticket items. Check out her online store and you'll see what I mean. This has totally shaken my faith in trusting Ebay's rating system and definitely has me questioning the wisdom of buying an EX3 from Ebay.

2nd question is... Would you even buy a used video camera like an EX3 without holding it in your hands first?

I am basically hoping to hear some advice, thoughts and experiences on the subject. Thanks for your help. Joe

scary stuff, wouldnt do it. there are places like b&h photo and others that are established entities that sell used. you wont get quite the sweet deal as on ebay, but at least you have somewhere to go if theres a problem, and these are real, trusted companies as well.

So far I've only bought used cameras from private sellers, but this particular listing is definitely the work of villains. If you haven't already done so, please contact eBay to warn them (for whatever it's worth). In each listing is a link to "Report Listing," and you can select "suspect listing is fraudulent" from a drop-down menu. Doing so myself as well.

Curious if contacting gmail regarding this "BrianTick40@gmail.com" would result in any positive resolution

Caveat Emptor - let the buyer beware!!

Seems like the bargain of the century eh? so are some of the other listings! looks like a wish list for whatever your into!

I wouldn't touch this with a barge pole.
If it's too good to be true - it probably is.

be careful please.

R

That particular Ebay posting is a scam. There are plenty of legitimate postings, though.

I've bought 4 HD cameras in the last 6 years, 3 of those being used. With today's solid state cameras, wear and tear isn't as big of an issue. There's no moving parts, except for zoom rockers, etc. Modern cameras are built pretty good.
And of all the cameras I bought, the brand new one had the most issues.

The EX3 is a very good camera.

I've done lots of business on eBay and have had many successful camera buys and sells. There are good deals to be found, but expect them to be within reason for high ticket items like a camcorder. For the most part people are honest, but as said before, if it seems to good to be true, it probably is. Completing the sale outside of eBay like the seller requests is against their policy and you should never do it. It's also a pretty obvious red flag that there's something sketchy going on. Its not hard to research people these days - Google is your friend...

https://www.google.com/search?q=briantick40&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari

2nd question is... Would you even buy a used video camera like an EX3 without holding it in your hands first?

The only type of camera I would buy blind is a new one, second hand I always need to see and check myself, you are not getting any guarantee if there is a serious error. I sold my xh-a1 about 2 weeks ago and only allowed buyers to pick it up at my place, I spend about 2 hours showing and testing the camera so they could see the camera was in mint condition. When they pay and I hand over the camera they know what they are getting at that moment, any issue that might occur afterwards is either a user error or bad luck. If you buy from Ebay you have to rely on a description telling you the camera is ok.

Over the last 10 or so years, I have purchased 3 cameras off of ebay and have had complete luck and success with them. HOWEVER, I don't buy from just anyone. I make sure they have some track history, I ask questions and I don't use but it now. Using a bit of common sense in my purchases I've not been bitten but if you don't feel comfortable doing it, then don't!

That listing is a scammer, "offering" an off eBay transaction, I'm surprised the spiders haven't caught it yet, perhaps all the "upgrades" at ebay have broken the protections - for a while, these type listings were being cauht and banished in a couple hours...


Yes, you have to be careful, but eBay has "buyer protection" if you follow ALL their rules (and I suggest use a credit card for the purchase for "backup"). So from a $$ standpoint, you're relatively safe. As for functionality, you have to know how to run through all the functions of whatever you buy, make sure everything works as expected, and it doesn't hurt to know if there are any "known issues" with the specific model that might apply to the one you're buying. Typically though, if it works, it works... and I don't mind buying "lightly tested" as I always seem to buy the "bad" one off the shelf! My luck is far better buying "used"... but that's probably just me

There aren't as many sellers/resellers of good high end gear as there used to be, primarily because of crazy policies that have hurt sellers terribly, so prices tend to be higher, bargains fewer, and so you have to be more patient, but you can pick up good to excellent deals IF you are patient and follow all precautions...

You've already spotted one "scam" listing, so that's a good start, and Don gives good suggestions too. It can be done, and does save you $$, if you are careful and take a little time to find a legit seller!

Thanks all for the timely replies. I've always bought new off the shelf and have usually had good luck until my last camera. I am glad to hear that some of you have had good luck buying a camera off of Ebay. Going to a reputable bricks and mortar vendor like B&H isn't practical for me as I live in the middle of the Smoky Mtns where the only place to buy a camera is Walmart. Atlanta is about 150 miles away. Does anyone know of a reputable vendor in Atlanta? Thanks again for the responses.

BTW: I'm looking for a lightly used EX3 with hopefully some batteries and SxS cards included.

Do you have to go in person? Should be able to order anything from B&H and similar places online. If there's an issue when you received I'm sure (never had to find out) they have a fair return policy.

If someone were to purchase this camera, after having tried it out and finding it in good condition, what is the most expensive “hidden defect” that could show up after having purchased it.
To Joe: I own a couple of pieces of property just down the road from you in Robbinsville, North Carolina.

Don't forget this site's own Private Classified section. EX3s show up every now and then.

In my opinion, I'd get a new PMW200 instead of an EX3. They have the same chip set (or close to it) but the 200 has the 50mbps, 4:2:2 XDCAM codec. To me, that trumps the removable lens on the EX3. B&H had used 200s for $5,200, which I think is a great price.

Even though I own an EX-3, +2 on the PMW200, if buying from scratch today.

I loved the idea of the interchangeable lenses, but frankly, I've only done it twice for testing. If I owned a 1/2 fuji full sized zoom, it might be different. But the 50mbps, 4:2:2 recording on the PMW200 will set you up for quite a while.

One other option is to go through one of the gear brokers. They've checked out the camera, and hold camera and payment until everything completes. So you know the gear exists, and that it will be shipped when you pay. For the seller, you pay a fee, but know you'll be paid. for the buyer, perhaps less of a deal, but you know you'll get what you pay for.

Thanks again everyone! This is an awesome site. Post a question and get multiple professional responses in less than 24 hours.

I had looked at the 200 but I prefer the viewfinder/LCD setup of the EX3 with the peaking and zebra controls right where I'm used to finding them plus I heard the smaller viewfinders aren't as nice for critical focus. I don't think I'll need the 4:2:2 colorspace anytime soon but it would be nice for the future. Can anyone post up a link of a critical review of the differences between EX3 and new 200? I've seen the 200 compared to the EX1R but not the EX3.

Also... It seems that the EX3 is a favorite product of the scammers. I've googled for classified listing in Atlanta hoping I could maybe find a DP selling one. One guy emailed me back saying he was no longer in Atlanta and had to take the camera with him. He said he would be willing for me to wire the money and he would handle the shipping expenses from Britain. The asking price $1700. LOL

Joe, put me down for 2 at that price! lol...yeah the scammers and scumbags are out there. Be careful but with some due diligence, you should come up with a REAL one!

Just wondering how folk are seeing that eBay listing as a scam? That price reflects the current bidding, after 11 bids (as I type this) and it will undoubtedly reach realistic figures by the time it closes on the 3rd. I don't know eBay well enough to see if there is a reserve, but there will surely be one. The seller has 100% feedback on multiple sales, so I am not entirely sure why this is a problem sale?

The only thing that catches my eye is the claim for the item to be unused and unopened. How did they take the pictures?

I tried to "reverse catfish" this guy. He had some high end speakers for sale with a buy It now price of, you guessed it, $2500. He mentioned in the ad strangely enough that he would prefer to have someone come and pick them up due to their weight and size. So I sent him a message and asked him what city and state he lived in. Notice, I did not ask him for his address, just a geographic location. He refused to release this information. I noticed some other really nice things on his site does seem to Good to be true. Including an $11,000 bicycle for a buy it now price of... $2500.

By the way, the reason that I asked the question regarding the most expensive repair one could encounter on a camera like this, is that I have considered purchasing used cameras on eBay before. If they are like mine VX 2000, there are reputable camera shops that will repair it for $650, irrespective of what's wrong with it (unless it's been dropped on its lens)

Not sure why all the fuss, I just picked up a ex1, as a 3rd camera, 175hr, paid with pay pal all good, so i say got for it and pay with pal pal they give you piece of mind if its a scam your will get your money back. BTW, $1450 for the ex1. Very happy.

Just wondering how folk are seeing that eBay listing as a scam? That price reflects the current bidding, after 11 bids (as I type this) and it will undoubtedly reach realistic figures by the time it closes on the 3rd. I don't know eBay well enough to see if there is a reserve, but there will surely be one. The seller has 100% feedback on multiple sales, so I am not entirely sure why this is a problem sale?

The only thing that catches my eye is the claim for the item to be unused and unopened. How did they take the pictures?

If you go and look up the seller's feedback will notice that out of over 11,000 transactions, not one item is a piece of electronic or photographic equipment let alone a professional camcorder. In fact, the items the original seller has sold were cutesy trinkets that sell for less than $10. My suspicion is that this is a legitimate seller and the scammer has figured out how to hack into a legitimate account. I found another questionable listing selling a EX1 which looked and sounded completely legit. About 250 transactions with 100% rating but I noticed that all the transactions were the same and not for anything remotely related to video, film or photography. My guess is the scammers look for legitimate sellers who have high approval ratings but haven't had much activity in the past 6 months. They hack in (only need to figure out a password to do that as user name is right there on the screen) and post up as many big ticket items as possible. They get their product photos from google image search and just wait for someone to contact them. I think if you bid through ebay and pay using PayPal, you should be safe as there are too many levels of protection but if you send money directly to the scammer, you're out the money.

I reported all of the fishy listings I have found so far and so far, Ebay hasn't done anything about them as they are still up.

OH BTW search "Sony EX3" in ebay and you'll see that there are two identical listings with exact same photo but from two different sellers! How dumb can we be?

Another bit of advice:

If you see a too-good-to-be-true Ebay ad - or any place that sells - that has pics, do a Google or Yahoo search for images of that same item. Example, an EX3. If you find the same pics of the for-sale item from another source, then the "seller" stole the pics to make their fake ad.

I've caught a fake ad that way before.

@ Trevor -

Joe pretty well covered "how to spot a scam listing online" -

1. Check account history - no recent feedback or only FB for low $ "unusual" items, and now is listing high $ "hot" items (scammers know what brings big $$). This usually indicates a "hacked" account, or sometimes a legit seller in a "triangulation" drop ship scam (seller does not have item, and sends money to 3rd party who either just steals the money, or ships using a stolen CC #).

2. The image block of "text" (that image block is used to avoid text search spiders) with an email address and an offer to "buy directly" for a rediculous amount is a prohibited solicitation to send your friendly neighborhood scammer (probably in Russia or Romania, but other places are getting up to speed too) a wire transfer, which leaves the buyer with ZERO protection... you should just send the Nigerian prince your money if you're that dumb... usually he promises bigger bucks...

3. There are PLENTY of pictures available on the web - "scraped" from eBay or other sites (I've had images stolen on eBay and used elsewhere...). If there are a lot of listings, usually the photos won't "match" as they are collected from various places.

4. If you communicate with the "seller", they will be very "sketchy" about any details, very few are really "clever" and usually you will notice fairly quickly that something isn't right (and they keep asking you to send a wire or money order). There ARE exceptions, I ran across a very slick US based scammer years ago, who was 100% knowledgeable about how eBay and PayPal worked, along with the US "systems", and was articulate - he or she was using second chance offers to multiply their returns...


As far as being "covered", yes eBay and PayPal "have your back" as long as you follow their RULES - you send a wire or MO, you are SOL... You will have to go through a claims process, and not have your funds for a while, even if you follow all the rules... And it's ALWAYS better to also use a CC that will give you an added layer of fraud protection (again, amke sure you follow their rules/claims process if eBay/PP fails you for some reason)


@ Kris -

You can buy everything from cameras that are working perfectly to "dunkin' specials" that have (sometimes SEAWATER) water damage. Most of the time you'll have damaged cameras listed as "as-is or for parts" if there are issues. But sometimes you run into someone who "overstates" the condition - this is where (good) pictures are helpful, and knowing how to evaluate the description/seller. People are people - be wise in who you "deal" with.

As far as "the most expensive repair" - this question is the same as "how big is a rock?" - it can vary A LOT. A "mainboard" typically will cost almost as much as a new camera... parts are ALWAYS expensive, and any repair cost will hinge on what is wrong... over the years I've seen (and sometimes bought) cameras with cosmetic damage and good "guts", and others flooded with unusable innards, and nearly pristine external condition... you have to know your stuff if a camera is anything other than 100% "working", and be able to test all the functions when a working one comes in!

Your comment on the main board costing as much as the entire camera will make me look at Panasonic's more closely if they still have that three-year register it online warranty. I would also have to give consideration to the B and H 3 or 5 year drop and spill protection.

I would never use Ebay for a purchase like this. As others have suggested try B&H's used listings, Allied Broadcast Group - Allied Broadcast Group - used video production trucks, video production truck equipment, HD studio camera packages, SD studio camera packages, broadcast video switchers (http://alliedbroadcastgroup.com/), Media Concepts, Media Concepts - broadcast video switchers, broadcast video switcher, new video equipment, production truck cameras, production truck camera, professional video equipment brokers, professional video equipment broker, video production truck equipment, (http://www.mediaconceptsinc.com/index.asp), etc. They are reputable companies that buy, sell & broker for & with pro's so you are far less likely to be dealing with an eBay scammer.

The EX1 & EX3 are the same camera internally. The EX3 has an interchangeable lens, the EX1 doesn't. And remember a good 1/2 lens for an EX3 will cost more than an EX1 or EX3.

Thanks to everyone for posting up their ideas and insights. I almost bought an EX3 off Ebay but not until I had contacted the seller and exchanged enough communications until I was convinced he was the real deal. Funny thing is I got beat out by someone else at the last minute because I was off shooting a ball game and couldn't follow the auction to the end. I am happy that I didn't win the auction as now I'm completely rethinking my camera choice. With NAB going on right now, I've decided to wait and see what new and exciting toys will be released and see how that affects the prices. I am currently considering a NEX FS100 with B&H selling them new at $4500 with the kit lens. I was going to spend at least $5500 on a used EX3 with accessories and so I decided to see how much camera and accessories I could get for the same $5500 - $6000. Thanks again. Joe

Almost a year after the last post here. . .what do we think about this topic? I realize I posted early on in thread bein' all "no way, man", but I just had a late night gig scramble (seriously, 11pm call for gig the next morning!) and I am getting quite sick of this nonsense.

On the other hand, EX1r's (the cam I'm mostly considering) are all over the place on ebay, going from $2000-$4000+ with the same condition, accessories, etc., and all the bonafied/legit places are more in the $4000+ range for used packages, usually without cards etc.

Josh, I wouldn't buy a camera off of eBay. Too many risks. But, if you are interested I've got an EX3 package for sale. A good well taken care of used camera should not give you any problems. I know a few people who have purchased used EX1's or EX3's from reliable sellers without problems.

Here's the link. Let me know if you're interested or have any questions in general.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/private-classifieds/521210-sony-pmw-ex3-extras.html

Thanks,
Garrett

Thanks. That's a little more than I'm looking to spend, and also I know many folks love the EX3 but I've started to hate working with the XL2 the last few years (the camera I'm replacing) so I'd prefer to stay away from something with that form factor.

Josh -

The used camera "market" is suffering the same as the new camera market, so prices can be all over the place! There are good deals that pop up If you know what you're looking for and are patient, decent deals pretty much all the time (although you don't see as much "nearly new" high end gear on ebay as you used to - fewer front end sales mean fewer/no "resales"), and of course you can ALWAYS pay retail or close to it!

For me, the savings is worth buying "used" or "open box return" when I can. BUT I also know how to buy and sell and evaluate listings/sellers/gear quickly, and how to stay protected if something does go wrong with a transaction. And I'm not afraid of handling routine mechanical and electronic repairs if they arise!

If you have a model you're focused on, you can watch the listings a number of different ways, and just wait until the price you can't refuse comes up. Make sure you review the listing for any "gotchas", check the feedback, communicate with the seller to confirm they are legit, you should be fine.

FWIW, the scammers sometimes show up with "high end" listings (hey, scammers will try to scam any way they can), but it is a lot less frequent than it used to be. Ebay is hard enough to make any money when you're a legit seller, and with all the anti-fraud things they've put in, scammers have it harder than they used to. Of course all the "anti fraud" measures (that ALSO make it hard on legit sellers) have resulted in many people no longer selling on ebay, so the "stock" is a bit thin for that reason as well!

Yeah, I use ebay sporadically but I have noticed it's mostly stores now, not so much individuals selling their own stuff, which is sad 'cause who cares about buying something from a retail place via ebay?

Anyway, scammers aside, I just had an epiphany that the more sophisticated (and irreplaceable in the workflow) the piece of gear, the more likely it is to screw you and ruin your day/career. Lights? not much that can go wrong, by 'em used, what the hell.

Mics? A little scary, still doable.

Cameras? Ok hold the phone, Chachi. So I will still look for used but will probably go with a more established place that vets their gear like B&H or a few other recommended places, rather than ebay. Even if not a scam, could still be God knows what wrong with it.

Having dealt with electronics for many years, both using and repairing, the truth is that any device "can" fail, mysteriously, sometimes at the worst time. Thus the mantra of "backup, backup, backup" - and why you might want to save some $$, so you can buy 'twosies" (AKA backups) for mission critical equipment!

Sometimes equipment is a victim of user malfunction, gravity and liquids are enemies (and I had one camera fail due to a near-field electrical discharge, AKA lightning!), but it's fairly rare that electronics just "fail". Malfunctions are more likely, just because we're talking mini-computers, but reboot is almost always your friend.

Generally if there is no physical abuse evident, and if one can do a reasonably thorough test of functionality with positive results when you get the camera, you'll probably be just fine, even if it's a bit scary to buy a complex expensive "thing" online.

I've only had a few problems buying on ebay, and most sellers will work those out, plus ebay stands behind you as a buyer, they've covered the very few "serious" problems. As a seller, I stand behind what I sell, as do most sellers I've dealt with. In the end the savings are worth it to me, and I don't feel I've lost any piece of mind. I even buy "broken" stuff for repair sometimes, when it's represented fully - got some killer deals that way!

Just avoid liquid, gravity and abuse damaged items! And of course things that just aren't working! It is harder to find the "small" or private sellers, but the stores are usually all at retail or higher... so you can pretty much weed them out!

I must be one of those idiots you hear about that's easily swayed in any direction by anyone's argument. . .now you got me going the other way!

Are savings worth the anxiety? Depends. Let's say $4000ish is the "normal" price of a used cam from a retailer (B&H has an EX1r right now for $4200ish). Saving $1000? Not really worth the effort/nail biting. $2000 or more? Now you're talking.

I would just really want to vet the thing before I call the sale "totally final" and take it out into the field, and I don't really know how to do that.

Yes, I agree that in an ideal world, having at least two of everything or a backup would be great. For things like lights and audio, that's not too hard usually (softbox fails, improvise 650 through large diffusion; lav fails, use a boom). On the other hand, buying two cams can get pretty unreasonably expensive. On the other other hand (this person grew up near a power plant obviously), the cam seems least likely to just not work right, save for a few models that were known to have issues like that *cough* Red One *cough hack wheeze*