More details here and it looks very interesting: Panasonic Announces 2/3-INCH, 3-Chip AJ-PX5000G AVC-ULTRA P2 HD Shoulder-Mount with MicroP2 Card Slots, AVC-LongG at DV Info Net (http://www.dvinfo.net/news/panasonic-announces-23-inch-3-chip-aj-px5000g-avc-ultra-p2-hd-shoulder-mount-with-microp2-card-slots-avc-longg.html)

Very nice. This must be the first 2/3" shoulder mount cam with 1080/60P.
Unfortunately, my budget is more in line with the HPX600, 370 or 250.

Very nice. This must be the first 2/3" shoulder mount cam with 1080/60P.
Unfortunately, my budget is more in line with the HPX600, 370 or 250.

Me too but we shall see as it has three CMOS chips not CCD.

What CMOS sensor in an 28k ENG body ?? Is the sensor global shutter?

The more I read that Press Release, the more I find myself thinking about what's not being said, rather than what is. Panasonic really made their name camera-wise with the Varicam, and much of their high-end following was down to it's vari-speed facilities. With the 3000 series, then whilst it brought true 1920x1080 to 2/3", there was disappointment about the limited slow motion offerings. So why no mention of varispeed capabilities here? Does that mean they aren't very good?

And 1080p/60 in AVC-Intra 100 seems extremely odd to me.

It's been long established that 60p does not need twice the bandwidth of 30p for equivalent compression quality - but that has always been assuming an inter-frame compression system. But AVC-Intra is (obviously) an intra-frame system.

Which means that each and every frame gets allocated the same amount of data - for 1080p/25, each frame gets 4 Mb (0.5MB) - 100Mb every second divided amongst 25 frames. Go to 1080p/50 and that same 100Mb every second must now be distributed amongst 50 frames - so half as much data per frame, each frame now can only have 2Mb or only 0.25MB.

I'd expect to see AVC-Intra 200 used to record 50/60p. That or compromise quality. In an intra-frame system, double the frame rate and you have to double the bitrate to preserve the per frame compression quality, all else equal.

I'm also not sure what to make about micro-P2. With the SxS cameras, then I am quite a fan of using SDHC cards via an adaptor - in some circumstances, and assuming 35Mbs is acceptable. (See http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdcam-ex-cinealta/514597-sony-pmw-camera-editing-workflow-3.html#post1782861 and the last couple of posts in the same thread.)

But the point is that it's to permit a different workflow. It's the cheapness of the cards that's important in such a case, it's comparable to tape and enables them to be treated as such, means that they can form their own backup and can be handed over in the same way as tape. I'll agree the physical size and form is not as good as SxS - but being able to use a workflow that avoids immediate formatting after transfer makes me forgive a lot.

But when you're talking about the cost of microP2 that's not the case. The expense still means you can't have too many of them, still need to format soon after transfer - but Panasonic have now moved onto a less robust and far more fiddly physical form! For what!?!

$28K body + $4K for VF21KG view finder + ~$2K for AVC Class 200 option board. This camera may be a bit over $35K when everything's in place. Ouch! I like the LongG codec. But why would anybody in with their hard earned money spend $30K on a body (with 12-pole matrix adjustment and the best DSP ever to date) + $30-80K on 2/3" HD lenses and shoot w/ AVC Ultra Long G? That's more appropriate for HPX600 or the new replacement for the HPX250. Back in the SDX900 days, I rarely ever shoot on DVCPRO 25 on a DV50 recorder. Fast forward to 2011 w/ HPX-250. Virtually nothing less than AVC-I 100. LongG is a good backup alternative for that rare occasion where LongG is needed. HPX3100 with AVC-I 100 and couple of premium HD lenses are quite superb already. I don't see that there'll be a huge jump in quality fr AVC-I 100 to AVC Ultra Class 200. It's small that probably green screen type of work will take notice. But non-screen work, it's just very costly overall in terms of increase in storage. Not going to spend double the cost of archiving P2s w/ LTO-6 tape with a mere 2.5 Tb/cartridge. Will wait couple more years. When a single 4 Tb is less than $90/drive, it's the right time to get into Class 200.

I suspect the new triple MOS sensors will be better in natural, low light. The glory days of the SDX900's superior low light performance may be back w/ this model. Crossing my fingers. if this cam beats the HPX3100 in natural low light performance, it's to me worth an extra $10K over the triple CCDs model. 1080/60p is nice but I don't have the need for it. Sports & wildlife shooters will be all over this cam with the new 1080/60p capability.

That's more appropriate for HPX600 or the new replacement for the HPX250. .

Sam, what new replacement for the HPX250 are you referring to?

Like the 2/3" HPX3700, 3100, the HPX-250 is the 1/3" equivalent for under $5K. I can say this because I've personally shot and intercut them for over a year. I must say they do look very similar. Not exact but very similar when using certain gamma mode. No need to perform white shading on the 2/3". Straight out of the factory presets for the two! Previously it was the HVX200. HPX500 was the 2/3" equivalent.

Sooner or later the successor model to the HPX-250 & 255 will have something equivalent to the AJ-PX5000G such as LongG and/or Micro P2 card capability under $8K. I don't know but exact release or model but it's coming. Strictly on a speculative basis. Now with 1/3" palmcorder, LongG is more suitable and justifiable. Just a big waste shooting on a $70K (cam & lens) and using LongG codec.

Ok, gotcha. Just speculation, but I agree with you. AVC/Ultra is going to be the new codec for Panasonic, and all the future broadcast cameras will have it, or be able to upgrade to it, like the HPX600. That, and the great little micro P2 cards.
I can see a new 250 - 260? - replacement coming out sometime soon. Next year, perhaps.

On the same subject, I found something interesting on the next Micro P2 supporting codecs:

Panasonic - microP2 (English) - YouTube

Micro P2 is confusing. Should I continue invest in F series P2 or Micro P2? The biggest gripe w/ Micro P2: Max rec bitrate is @50 Mb/s via the Micro-P2 adaptor. Not really useful for equipment prior to 2013. Can't really shoot Micro P2 on HPX3100, 3700, HPX-250, or use Micro P2 on portable P2 decks@AVC-I 100. Kind of useless unless AVC-I 50 is acceptable for the producer. I'm all AVC-I 100, so Micro P2 has no immediate impact for a while. Micro P2 is great for new users who just entered the P2 market and can choose. But for those who already made substantial P2 investment prior to 2013, it's just hard to literally sell off all gear prior to 2013 and get 2013+ model.

If they keep on making P2 and Micro P2 on all future gear, the cost for the equipment should be several grand more to offset the cheaper Micro P2 media. So in a way there's not really a huge advantage for Micro P2 just yet. I see that a 128 Gb Micro P2 will be a nice cost to capacity ratio when AVC Ultra 200 is fully embraced by the mass.

The new 2/3" PX5000G is a whopping $35K to have a functional camcorder. Don't be misled by the $28K SRP. They have to list at the lowest price. Marketing gimmick. MOS sensors are cheaper than CCDs, but the price is still high regardless. Wonder if this has to do w/ Micro P2 + P2 and a combination of 1080/60p on the camcorder.

I actually wonder if there is anything special about the micro P2 cards as they just look like normal SD cards.

Ok an adaptor to use HC/SD cards would have been great three years ago but I think that most people will already have enough full size P2 cards for their needs.

New camera's may benefit from the use of them directly but if it is found that you can just use std cards as per the SXS adaptors I doubt if people will buy them.

I agree that the new P2 camera's are too expensive and they would have been better off pricing the HPX600 as a 2/3" replacement for the 301/371 and making the new camera the flagship do it all al the 3700 and the 3100 as the CCD alternative.

As microP2 supports 200 mbps and is around 200-300 euros/64GB, for me it's a good news. And the 50 mbps are only if you use regular other SD card with the adaptor. So you can record AVC Intra 50 witch is for me enough for most production. So micro P2 is exactly the same than P2 but lower price. .
For myself, microP2 will now push me to go to this kind of product line. Why now?
Because of the price of the P2 cards (even if it's getting lower with time) and first of all, the price of what you need to copy them faster than real time recording. I remember how long it was to put one 32Gb card with USB 2.0 on your computer. That's the only reasons I didn't buy an HPX250 before. So I don't feel confused with this announcement. But, I'd like Panasonic to go on 4K or to a new AF100 with AVC-Intra and Micro P2.. But I'm really not sure.
Regards.

Micro P2 is confusing. Should I continue invest in F series P2 or Micro P2? The biggest gripe w/ Micro P2: Max rec bitrate is @50 Mb/s via the Micro-P2 adaptor. Not really useful for equipment prior to 2013. Can't really shoot Micro P2 on HPX3100, 3700, HPX-250, or use Micro P2 on portable P2 decks@AVC-I 100. Kind of useless unless AVC-I 50 is acceptable for the producer. I'm all AVC-I 100, so Micro P2 has no immediate impact for a while. Micro P2 is great for new users who just entered the P2 market and can choose. But for those who already made substantial P2 investment prior to 2013, it's just hard to literally sell off all gear prior to 2013 and get 2013+ model.

If they keep on making P2 and Micro P2 on all future gear, the cost for the equipment should be several grand more to offset the cheaper Micro P2 media. So in a way there's not really a huge advantage for Micro P2 just yet. I see that a 128 Gb Micro P2 will be a nice cost to capacity ratio when AVC Ultra 200 is fully embraced by the mass.


Where did you hear the adapter can only record micro P2 at 50mbps? I understood it to mean the full bitrate. It's 50mbps maximum when you use an SD card instead. Please provide your source of info.

Edit: Okay, I found this on a Panasonic document about the micro P2 adapter using existing equipment:

• High-speed reading up to 1.0 Gbps.
• Guaranteed writing speed up to AVC-Intra100
(excluding 60p/50p).

So, it can do full AVC/Intra 100 on existing models.

http://pro-av.panasonic.net/en/sales_o/broch_pdf/microp2_e.pdf

I actually wonder if there is anything special about the micro P2 cards as they just look like normal SD cards.

Ok an adaptor to use HC/SD cards would have been great three years ago but I think that most people will already have enough full size P2 cards for their needs.

New camera's may benefit from the use of them directly but if it is found that you can just use std cards as per the SXS adaptors I doubt if people will buy them.

I agree that the new P2 camera's are too expensive and they would have been better off pricing the HPX600 as a 2/3" replacement for the 301/371 and making the new camera the flagship do it all al the 3700 and the 3100 as the CCD alternative.

They are different. Watch the video above and you will see the back end has an extra row of contacts. And no SD card can write or download at the speed a micro P2 card can, not even close.

If you already have a lot of P2 cards, then you may not need the adapter, although the micro P2s can record and download much faster than existing P2 cards. I would definitely pick an adapter up. If you already have a P2 camera, why would you need an SxS card adapter?

The P2 shoulder mount cameras aren't much different in price than their predecessors, even though they do more.

It was my understanding as well that the 50Mbs limit with the adaptor was only applicable to standard SDHC cards, not micro-P2.

But I'm not surprised there is confusion. The NAB advertising releases from Panasonic seem to be heavy with rhetoric and marketing speak ("With its breadth of recording options, ultimate image quality, variety of professional I/Os and powerful expandability, the PX5000G......." :-) ) and much lighter on the detail. It's to the extent that some bits are positively misleading. I earlier wrote:
And 1080p/60 in AVC-Intra 100 seems extremely odd to me.

............Go to 1080p/50 and that same 100Mb every second must now be distributed amongst 50 frames - so half as much data per frame, each frame now can only have 2Mb or only 0.25MB.

I'd expect to see AVC-Intra 200 used to record 50/60p.
It turns out that as I'd expected, the PX5000 DOES use 200 Mbs if it has to record 1080p/50 for exactly the reasons previously said, so the compression per frame will be as for 1080p/25 at 100Mbs. The press release should have been written to say ".....will record ....1080/60p (in AVC-Intra class100)." - not "AVC-Intra 100".

Confused? Hardly surprising. It seems that they have started using the terms "AVC-Intra class 100" or "class 200" to refer to the number of bits of data allocated to each frame - and the 100 or 200 number represents the per second bitrate assuming 25 or 30 frames per second. Go to 50 or 60p and class 100 means 200Mbs, class 200 means 400Mbs. Sheesh. Who thought of that definition!?

Having hopefully cleared that up, then the more I think about it, the more the real question becomes just who is going to buy this camera? In the press release they refer to "the PX5000G will address niches in network news, documentary, high-end corporate and sports production, as well as the rental market......And recording prime programming in AVC-Intra200 today will facilitate up-rezzing to higher-level formats in the future."

Really? It seems to me that it is huge overkill for most news and even documentary filming, especially when taking into account that an AVC-Intra 200 capability is extra cost. And the "prime programming" they refer to is surely more likely to be now interested in future-proofing via 4k, even RAW than any 1080 HD system. I can't disagree with any of the points made in the section about "content future-proofing". For what they describe as "blue chip programming" with big budgets, 4k makes a lot of sense, 1080/AVC-Intra200 uprezzed just seems too little, too late. A danger of falling between stools.

Yes, the ability to pay the extra to get AVC-Intra class 200 and 1080p/50(60) recording can only be seen as good points - but are they worth the cost of this camera? With Sonys F5/55 already being bought and used, let alone what Red, Canon are doing, will anybody pay this sort of money for a camera that will "only" do 1080p/50? And still a rolling shutter.

As microP2 supports 200 mbps and is around 200-300 euros/64GB, for me it's a good news........

So I don't feel confused with this announcement. But, I'd like Panasonic to go on 4K or to a new AF100 with AVC-Intra and Micro P2.. But I'm really not sure.
On the subject of the micro-P2 cards then again my feeling is "too little, too late" rather than there's anything actually bad about them.

First thing is to beware the 2Gbs figure that features heavily in the marketing. It's only a read speed, and represents a best possible case anyway. Max sustained write speed is a more useful figure, and hardly surprisingly that's a lot lower. They seem to say that it will definitely do 200Mbs (1080p/50 in AVC-Intra class 100 mode) - but definitely WON'T do 400Mbs (1080p/50 in AVC-Intra class 200 mode).

It's worth looking at what Sony have stated with regards to XAVC and resolution, frame and bit rates. XAVC Specification Overview | XAVC | Sony (http://www.xavc-info.org/xavc/XAVCSpecificationOverview.html) - see figure 2 and figure 3. In ball park terms, a lot of those figures will be just as applicable to AVC-Intra as to XAVC. In section 3 it states that "the F55 will record 4k XAVC INTRA at... between 240Mbs (24p) and 600Mbs (60p)" and I'd suspect any future Panasonic 4k camera would have similar figures.

Consequently, I wouldn't see micro-P2 as at all future proof. It should be able to record basic 4k at 24fps, but definitely not 60fps, and the same goes for any slow motion ability likely being severely limited. In 4k, their performance is likely to be akin to using SD cards in an EX1 with the early adaptors. Fairly reliable at normal usage, but go to slo-mo and start to up the frame rate and expect them to fall over well before 60fps.

Ah. This clarifies it. I was not clear on the SDHC and genuine Micro P2 via the adaptor bitrate. No rush into buying though unless there's workable firmware and long, non-stop recording events @ AVC-I 100. But good to know just in case I need about 12 hours of micro P2s. The question is if that micro-P2 adaptor will cost a fortune as each P2 cam will need 2 of it.



Where did you hear the adapter can only record micro P2 at 50mbps? I understood it to mean the full bitrate. It's 50mbps maximum when you use an SD card instead. Please provide your source of info.

Edit: Okay, I found this on a Panasonic document about the micro P2 adapter using existing equipment:

• High-speed reading up to 1.0 Gbps.
• Guaranteed writing speed up to AVC-Intra100
(excluding 60p/50p).

So, it can do full AVC/Intra 100 on existing models.

http://pro-av.panasonic.net/en/sales_o/broch_pdf/microp2_e.pdf

The micro P2 adapter has a suggested retail price of $199.