Hi Guys

This blog might be useful for the EA-50 too... It is for the FS100 but the results and settings surely could be adapted to our cameras.

The one designed for bright outdoor shots might be worth a shot for starters!!

FS100 Scene Files from AbelCine | CineTechnica (http://blog.abelcine.com/2011/07/25/fs100-scene-files-from-abelcine/)

Chris

Thanks for this!

I actually noticed that the modified PP3 setting they added a lot of yellow! Now, my PP3 definately shows up green trees and grass as if they do have a lack of yellow chroma so I tried the "off" setting and the trees and grass seem to return to more accurate levels now during a Realty shoot today

I might now have to compare the modded PP3 with the no profile and see how it compares but for now, especially with greenery the no profile is much more saturated than the PP3 which is a little wishy washy.

Chris

OK Guys

The CineAble profile mod for PP3 is really nice if you like good and accurate colour and plenty of saturation..I think it will be a beauty for outdoor shots and it's really worth a try!! The standard PP3 is definately pasty and washed out in comparison to the new settings. They are however still close to the default "off" setting but a bit richer and I think less chance of having an over-exposed image in bright light.

I now would like a nice PP for indoor shots under lighting.

EDIT: I did a shoot this afternoon and also indoors with cam and an on camera light and the results are magic!!!

Let me know your comments

Chris

Chris,
Where did you find the AbelCine mod for PP3. I searched their site without result.

Hi Dan

It's in the FS100 scene file blog but to save you time just mod the current PP3 profile and change these settings.

Black Level: -2
Gamma: CinemaTone1
Black Gamma: Range = High / Level = 0
Knee: Point = 102.5% / Slope = -1
Color Mode: Type = Standard / Level =8
Color Level: +1
Color Phase: +1
Color Depth: R=-2, G=-6, B=-7, C=0, M=+2, Y=+5
WB Shift = All 0
Detail = Level = -3 / Manual Set = Off


It's a really nice look for general work!!

Chris

Thanks Chris!

Hi Dan

I shot with this profile today inside and outside a house and the indoor shots seemed a bit dark...outside in bright light were magic so the profile would need to be "tuned" a bit for indoor shoots.

With my Panasonics I had a neat PDF file which explained what setting does what but alas I cannot find any sort of PDF which explains what "black levels" do when you lift them up or drop them down ..that would be very useful!! Things like Colour Level are simple enough as are detail. I just modded my PP3 profile with the new settings but now I really need one for say, deep shade and indoors.

I'm still not sure how you shold mod this for indoor shots but based on Noa's video an alternative "indoor" PP would involve changing the Black Level to zero, Black Gamma Level to 7 and Colour Level to -3

Chris

Yesterday when I was filming at the Sint Trudo church I replaced ppt1 with abelcine's preset, when I was at the church I did some side by side shots with my cx730 at it's widest angle and the ea50 with a samyang 14mm f2.8. Then I applied all factory presets, except ppt1 which I replaced with the abelcine one to see which one would match best with my cx730.

It turns out abelcine's preset is a very good match, also ppt3, if you would add saturation and contrast and ppt 5 which has a bit richer color.
I was surprised to see that my cx730 resolved more detail then the ea50, the 14mm on the ea50 however does go much wider which makes the small detail even smaller what could be a reason but still, the overal picture looks sharper to me for the cx730.

I also did a low light comparison from a shorter distance and then the ea50 stayed a bit sharper at high gains.

Below several frame grabs for those who are interested to compare:

and some more:

Hi Noa

Excellent!! Pity you didn't compare the default as well...that is a LOT different I found to the presets. It has a much deeper colour too.....Guess you never shot anything in the Church with the camera in "OFF"???

Chris

Thanks Noa,

That was a lot of comparison! I will try the abelcine preset on my next indoor shots - it looks excellent on this monitor.

Dan

These are the settings on my NX5U that come close to the CX700. I have reset the PP2 to these settings.

Master black - 4
Gamma ITU709
Colour level -1
Detail +7
Manual set under detail
V/H 0
B/W type 4
Black level limit 3
White level limit 7
Crispening 7
Hi-light detail 2

the rest are default.

This gives an image really close to my CX700.

All my shoots are indoor.

As Noa has found without the detail enhancements the CX700 is a lot sharper than the NX5U. Before I set up the preset I was always sharpening the NX5U in editing to match the small Sony's. Still do a little at times !! However the flat image can be enhanced easily since there is little enhancements in the original to interfere.

There are some posts on the NX5U section also on the presets that you may try too.

Ron Evans

I want to say the work, advice, and knowledge you share here does not go unappreciated. A big thank you again for again posting something so valuable.

Steve

Hi Guys

If you look casually at all Noa's shots there isn't a huge amount of difference between the profiles actually in indoor shots so for the average viewer one could probably get away with any of them.

The big difference happens with high contrast, bright light shots more than anything else. Using the "OFF" setting and the standard PP3 there is a massive difference in colour, especially the greens which with PP3 tend to lose a lot of the correct colour and show up more as if the shot was done on a dull overcast/rainy day ...bright green tress and grass tend to revert to a dull grey/green and they lose all their sparkle. If you are Summer shooting then a comparison of profiles is definately a must!!

Chris

Just to clarify a bit more the preset I used, it's called abelcine range and has following parameters:

Black Level: 0
Gamma: CinemaTone1
Black Gamma: Range = High / Level = +7
Knee: Point = 102.5% / Slope = -1
Color Mode: Type = Standard / Level =8
Color Level: -3
Color Phase: +1
Color Depth: R=-2, G=-6, B=-7, C=0, M=+2, Y=+5
WB Shift = All 0
Detail = Level = -3 / Manual Set = Off

Now I noticed that detail is set to -3 so that does explain the sharpness difference compared to my cx730, I just dialed this in before I left filming and only notice it now :) I guess for a fs100 that might be good as that camera would probably resolve more detail so I"ll try to turn that up a bit and compare with keeping it at -3 and sharpening in post.

Hi Noa, et al,
I user a Panasonic 160a ,so am probably in the wrong forum! (Hi Chris) However, I am experimenting with cine V modes with reduced gamma -4 and reduced detail-2 and reduced vdetail -2. The results on 500% enlargement show very clearly that the "sharpness" modes only enhance edge acutance and really do nothing for real sharpness. In fact they look quite artificial- I hate outlined images! These "softer" settings actually retain more detail without dramatising edge effect.

In Barry Green's book he states something along the lines that the camera always produces the same resolution. It is the manipulation of edge acutance and contrast that makes it appear sharper. You cannot actually increase sharpness, only the perception of it.

Back in my photographic days I used to process ASA400 material to ASA 1600 using a Paterson developer. It sure looked brutally sharp at huge enlargement but really was all about edge acutance and crushed contrast range.

So, keeping away from edge acutance gives a more sort of fluid filmic look and I love this more cinematic look, but the beauty of this mode is only revealed on fairly big screens. I am going to play some more! - just idle chatter folks, but experiences are always worth sharing ( and I learned everything I know from my own experiences and mistakes, and those of others!!!)!

So if you get the time, shoot some stuff and enlarge 500% then look carfully at the edge detail.- could be life changing!!!

Cheers!
Rod.

Hi Rod

I became quite good with understanding and setting the Panasonic scene files but now the Sony throws up a completely different set of parameters (probably the same thing under different names) We just have one detail setting and the Pannys have two ... detail and vertical detail.

I play with profiles when I have time but for now I'm just shooting on-going stuff with default...My Realty shoots are non critical so they are a nice location to experiment with, but I dare not do drastic changes to weddings that I cannot reverse.

I would still like to find a Sony "manual/white paper" like Pansonic has which explains in great depth exactly what each parameter does and what happens when you set it both up and down and they have images examples.

Chris

Hi Rod
We just have one detail setting and the Pannys have two ... detail and vertical detail.

Chris

Chris you have to open the manual set under detail to get all the other detail parameters. The detail control is just a big volume control more or less !!!

Ron Evans

Thanks Ron

I find no fault with the manual at all..in fact it's a darn side more comprehension than the Panasonic ones and at least Sony provide a hard copy too! It would just be nice to have another website/publication that went through each parameter and explained what it does and then gave you two images saying..this is what your picture will look like with Black Level at +7 and this is what your picture will look like at -7

I cannot find anything explaining PP's and was hoping that Sony or a Sony user had something online similar to what Panny released for the HMC150 Scene Files.

Chris

This may cover some of what you are looking for Chris. http://www.sony-asia.com/microsite/professional/hdv/pdf/HVR-Z7_S270Tutorial_e7.pdf

Ron Evans

Hi Ron

I found that some time ago and for some reson the PDF wouldn't load! Now, using your link it took a bit of time but it eventually loaded and I have saved a copy..Perfect, thanks!! Exactly what I was looking for and much the same format as the Panny tutorial! I'll study it later in depth!!

I have a Realty shoot waiting!!

Chris

Just did a shoot of a house inside and out and I decided to put the PP on "off" so it uses Sony's default settings and unless you are very picky it gives a very nice general use profile that's good for indoors and outdoors .... The CineAble mod gives a nice outdoor pic but if you move into deep shade it fails miserably and the standard PP3 is very washed out for outdoor work.

For now I will stick to default I think while I fiddle around with other settings. It's a pretty good default!!

Chris

I didn't think of setting the picture profiles to off before, will try that this evening, I will be testing the camera for a dance performance that will be on tommorow.

Hi Noa

It would be neat to test the "off" setting, the old PP3, the AbleCine one you use and I would also look at trying the one for bright high contrast lighting as stage lighting can be quite bright and very high contrast ...However if the stage lighting is moderate that one will fail miserably..it didn't work for me with indoor lighting at all..Most of my indoor house shots are at F3.5 and between 0db and 6db ... the off setting worked really well though.

Apart from you and I I wonder if anyone else is using a PP preset, standard or otherwise or is PP set to off??

Come on people what profile are you finding works best??

Chris

Ok, just looking at the footage I made a few hours ago and for me pp5 comes closest to my cx730 on a lit stage, it is weird to see what results different presets have under different circumstances, pp3 f.i. was very noisy now while pp5 crushed the blacks much more so you'd loose detail in dark area's but it also decreased the noise, it also has more saturation which better matched the cx730's. the "off" setting was close but lacked colour (compared to my cx730) and had a bit more noise, pp2 and pp4 for looked a bit weird and abelcine range had more latitude but more noise.

I had to shoot at 3200 iso a lot to keep up with my cx730 which outperformed the ea50 with the stocklens by quite a margin. Anything over 3200 started to look ugly in terms of noise.

I still am in doubt what to do tomorrow, the ea50 with the stocklens is no match for my cx730 when they really dim the light and at first I wanted to let my 2cx730's run unmanned with exposure in auto but I saw I could set the ev to -1 only and not -2 which is not sufficient to prevent clipping so most of the footage is a bit overexposed then. So I probably will leave the ea50 unmanned on the side of the stage in auto with focus locked and with the lens wide because that can have the ev at -2 and when I maximize the iso at max 3200 it should be ok for most shots. Then I most likely will be having both cx730 side by side at the front manned with one wide and the second one for closeups and following the action.

Hi Guys

OK, more discoveries again!! I shot a Church wedding on the "OFF" setting and wow..there is just too much colour saturation !! I would think that the standard PP3 setting would be a lot better...Funny it also seems to make the camera more sensitive indoors (it's doesn't but I think the excess saturation is simply making the image darker)

PP3 seems a nice preset for all indoor shots ... I tried playing with all parameters and watching the LCD and the only one that seems to make a BIG visual difference is the Gamma... Move the profile to Cinetone1 or 2 and the contrast goes sky high and colour saturation is also higher ... Drop back to ITU709 and the whole screen brightens up.

Use PP3 in bight outdoor shoots and shucks the colour just about dies!! Especially greens ...other than that it's nice ... maybe I'll try the AbelCine Colour Depth settings and see if that helps..."OFF" isn't too bad at all outdoors but in a Church it's terrible!!!

At this stage I like PP3 as it stands for indoor shots but need to mod the profile for outdoor now....

Anyone got a modded profile that works well outdoors???

Chris

I played with a new Picture Profile today that seems like a possibility for outdoor shots in both sun and shade. Take a look...
Picture Profile on Vimeo


Black Level: +8
Gamma: Standard
Black Gamma
Range: Low
Level: -3
Knee (Manual)
Point: 80.0%
Slope: -2
Color Mode
Type: Cinematone1
Level: +8
Color Level: 0
Color Phase: -5
Color Depth
R: -4
G: +2
B: +3
C: 0
M: +2
Y: +2
WB Shift
Filter Type: LB-CC
LB [ColorTemp]: -3
CC[MG/GR]: -3
R Gain: -1
B Gain: +1
Detail (No Manual): -7

Hi Dan

Thanks ..Did you perhaps take a still of the same scene with a digital camera and compare colours ?? To me the trees seem to display the dull grey/green that seems to be typical when PP3 is used outdoors BUT I'm not there, you are!! It would be nice to know if your footage compared to an "eyeball" or digital photo of the scene actually look much the same.

I shot a wedding on PP2 yesterday (yeah I know it's a "stills" profile) but I read that PP1, PP2 and default are all much the same ..PP2 colour is also quite heavy in saturation and the colours are pretty vibrant BUT contrasty ... I found that CineTone seems to push contrast high!! My wedding was in brilliant sunshine and deep shadow and the contrast was definately over the top. PP3 is definately brilliant for all indoor work but I'm still looking for a nice outdoor profile that isn't too contrasty... I will definately pop your settings into my camera and have a look at my sort of footage.

Thanks for sharing

Chris

Hi Chris,

I did not compare to a still shot, but to my eyeball, color is extremely close to natural...that is what impressed me about this profile. On my system, the green of the evergreens is definitely that, with little, if any gray cast. Color looks very close on both my monitors.

The modified PP3 from AbelCine is nice also, but perhaps not as good in shade...yesterday the sun was playing hide and seek with the clouds - will try again under more uniform conditions.

Let me know how this works out and if you come up with the "ideal" profile.

Dan

You know why they call the hour after the sunrise and just before the sunset the golden hours (or magic hour)? Well, that's what I tried to capture today :) Was up very early this morning to drive to a nearby lake, the weather was perfect today (it was freezing when I got there but temperatures will be up to 16 degrees today)

I"m currently editing a new short movie I made with the ea50 but this time with the stocklens only. I used the PP5 preset and applied a yuv curve in Edius to give the footage more punch and also added some extra saturation, the complete version will be online probably tomorrow as I"m going to shoot some more in a few hours just before the sun sets but I wanted to give a preview as I was quite pleased with the color I got.

It's still rough around the edges as a few shots are a bit too dark but that will get fixed in the final version.

Edit: have to check again as vimeo encode looks much darker then what I see in Edius or even the original mp4 file I made for upload, weird...

https://vimeo.com/61093054

Noa, very nice. How did you achieve the last shot- it looks like creep zoom and slider. Very subtle ,I like that effect.
Rod

Hi Ron, the full version is now available here: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-nex-ea50-all-variants/514781-new-nex-ea50-film-sahara.html
The last shot, like many others I did, was done with a slider and by slowing it down to 50%, I think 90% of my entire film was slowed down in that way, gives a very smooth and slow motion. That's the advantage of 50p. :)