I've just been told by a couple who've booked me to do their wedding that the vicar has said that he'll only allow video if the videographer has a CRB (Criminal Records Bureau) check.
I have no concerns about getting one but I can't find any way to apply for one for myself, it seems that only certain organisations are eligible to apply for them, not the person being checked.

I've never come across this before for a church wedding. Is it something that anyone else in the UK has been asked for, if so how have you dealt with it?

I'm no expert on this but I do have a CRB obtained for me by an organisation. The system is changing (this week is the last to obtain a current CRB as I understand it), CRB's are phased out and a new check DBS (Disclosure and Barring ) is replacing it - Disclosure and Barring Service | Home Office (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/agencies-public-bodies/dbs/)

You still can't apply for yourself BUT - https://www.gov.uk/crb-criminal-records-bureau-check - this page says you can be a UK resident (anywhere in the UK) and apply for a basic check via Disclosure Scotland - Apply online for Basic Disclosure - Disclosure Scotland (http://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/apply-online/) - it costs £25 (figure that one out!)

I've never heard of a Vicar asking for a CRB before and I don't know of anyone else who has - Perhaps try going over his head and asking his Bishop why it's needed.

Edit - (Current CRB application forms only accepted till the end of this month - not this week as I thought)

I've called him this morning and I'm going to meet with him tomorrow. He wouldn't go into his reasons on the phone.

It's always been a bit daft that you cannot get yourself checked, but the vicar has his set of rules. Even though even if you work connected with children, CRB in either of the formats, and the new one isn't necessary unless you need unsupervised access to children - some people are actually doing them to discover criminal records, which is not really what they were for.

I frequently work in schools and my CRB check ran out two years ago, and nobody ever asks about it - because when I'm in a school, I don't get left with the kids. I also manage a team of chaperones for pantomime each year, and they have full CRBs, but I don't - because they work directly with the kids, not me!

The more I hear about what UK videographers have to deal with in churches, the worse I feel for you guys. It's just unfortunate.

.....and then the 'church' wonder why fewer and fewer people want to get married in church.

I don't see how any Vicar has any reason to ask for you to have a CRB check or it's new replacement. Firstly it would be neccessary only if working closely with children or vulnerable adults, or in some cases, work involving handling money. Secondly, a CRB check could only be applied for by a potential employer, and the wedding videographer would not be employed by the Vicar, so it is nothing to do with him!

I cannot envisage any way that a wedding videographer would be working in circumstances that would require a CRB check, in fact I would suggest that with the current and recent scandals regarding the clergy and children, that it might be more appropriate for the videographer to suggest that the vicar has a CRB check!! Remind the vicar that your contract is with your client and they are the only ones that can request your compliance with specific requirements that they may have.

It just seems another situation where a member of the clergy is sticking his nose into an area that he knows nothing about to massage his own self importance.

Roger

Gosh, the videographer standing in public view in the aisle, I wonder if he is a mass murderer, serial killer or just a plain ole pediophile casting an evil eye on my children.

The Churches in the UK seem to have gone totally crazy!! Soon the headlines will read "Brave couple decide to get married in a Church", "Vicar says it's our first wedding in 13 years"

Luckily we don't have that rubbish over here and Church weddings are still on the decrease so I can imagine how fast they will decline in the UK soon.

Civil ceremonies are easier to shoot and more fun too ... maybe it's about time they built a few wedding chapels like they have in Vegas ...no nonsense and no fuss and it's all about the bride's needs not the Church needs. I'm quite amazed people still put up with that sort of nonsense!!

Chris

I've called him this morning and I'm going to meet with him tomorrow. He wouldn't go into his reasons on the phone.

Someone's suggested that I ask the vicar to tell me how many videographers have been accused or charged with offenses against children and then to remind me of how many clergymen have.
It probably wont be a long meeting.

Hi Oliver

I would be a little careful on that subject..we all know the issue but it is unlikely to put you in his good books!! Just bite the bullet and do as he says and get thru the ceremony and hope you don't have to shoot in his Church again. Yeah it would be great to remind him about that specified issue but it certainly will cause a huge amount of nastiness towards you and your day in Church will be made as difficult as possible.

Chris

I don't see how any Vicar has any reason to ask for you to have a CRB check or it's new replacement. Firstly it would be neccessary only if working closely with children or vulnerable adults, or in some cases, work involving handling money. Secondly, a CRB check could only be applied for by a potential employer, and the wedding videographer would not be employed by the Vicar, so it is nothing to do with him!
Roger

I agree Roger - It seems to me this Vicar doesn't want a videographer and so is putting up ignorant barriers - is he asking the same of the photographer, or the people who are coming in to do the flowers etc etc - I doubt it.

I bend over backwards to be professional and accommodating to clergy but you wonder who the day is about - the vicar or the couple!

Well I've just been to meet the vicar and he was charming and friendly. He just seems to be overly concerned that if the footage was to be used 'inappropriately' he will be held responsible for allowing it to be filmed and have to answer to his bishop. He wouldn't elaborate on what would be considered inappropriate, though reading between the lines it seems that someone may have posted something on youtube of him, or someone, making a fowl up at a wedding. He was still asking for a reference though so I've suggested he contacts the vicar at my local church where I've done a couple of weddings. In the end he seemed happy to allow me to film and trust me not to do anything 'inappropriate, the patronising cheek of the man. Maybe I'll ask him for a written reference after the wedding.

Someone's suggested that I ask the vicar to tell me how many videographers have been accused or charged with offenses against children and then to remind me of how many clergymen have.
It probably wont be a long meeting.


I would be a little careful on that subject..we all know the issue but it is unlikely to put you in his good books!! Just bite the bullet and do as he says and get thru the ceremony and hope you don't have to shoot in his Church again. Yeah it would be great to remind him about that specified issue but it certainly will cause a huge amount of nastiness towards you and your day in Church will be made as difficult as possible.
Chris

Chris your warning is noted but my above post was meant to be lighthearted, I'm not so tactless as to say that to him. Perhaps I should have used a smiley face to indicate that.

Hi Oliver

Good for you! I wouldn't think any decent videographer would film anything in-appropriate anyway. I'm sure it will go well from here on. This is one reason why I also attend rehearsals..to meet the vicar and assure him/her that I am a decent person (assuming I haven't met them before) Most popular Churches I know the guy anyway!

I actually had a civil wedding on saturday and the groomsman fainted in the very high heat..while we were getting him up and rehydrating him I switch the cam off and then continued when he was OK ...I COULD have become a news cameraman and filmed him on the ground and posted a YouTube video about it BUT that's not my style.

Chris

[QUOTE=Oliver Nuther;1778313] He wouldn't elaborate on what would be considered inappropriate, though reading between the lines it seems that someone may have posted something on youtube of him, or someone, making a fowl up at a wedding. He was still asking for a reference though so I've suggested he contacts the vicar at my local church where I've done a couple of weddings. In the end he seemed happy to allow me to film and trust me not to do anything 'inappropriate, the patronising cheek of the man. Maybe I'll ask him for a written reference after the wedding.

/QUOTE]

It sounds to me that if he is concerned that you might film him making a fowl up and you or the couple posting it on Youtube, that his own competence might be lacking. Rather than you asking him for a reference, perhaps your client needs to ask him for a reference before paying hime to officiate over their wedding!

Roger

I wonder if it is up to us to go through all that trouble to get a permission to film a wedding, in Belgium I never have any issues but in the Netherlands I have had 2 cases with priests forbidding me to enter the church or a priest telling me where to stand and not to move, which was in a position I could not get a clear shot of what was happening.
In both situations I told my client what was going on but they where afraid to go against the priest and said it was ok. In both cases the client did not complain after I delivered the dvd.

I've just been told by a couple who've booked me to do their wedding that the vicar has said that he'll only allow video if the videographer has a CRB (Criminal Records Bureau) check.

Ive never heard of anything so ridiculous, it makes you wonder where the restrictions will end.>>>>>need to pay church a license fee, need to get CRB checked, cant stand at the front. I had one vicar tell me I couldnt mic the groom up.

There are absolutely no requirements in the Church's own published guidelines for the UK to require a CRB check. On the contrary the guidelines issued to UK clergy regarding weddings is very fair.Here is a part that is relevant to video.

(Quote ) 8. An annually-renewable Church Copyright Licence covers most songs reproduced for wedding ceremonies and also permits live music during the service (including worship) to be recorded.
If the wedding is recorded a musician can charge extra, according to their association guidelines (but only if your local contract supports this practise). It is also open to organists to waive this as a gift to the couple. See the Church of England's press release for more on this, and recent press coverage.
9. If the wedding is filmed any videography fee charged by the Church should only reflect the real expense incurred by the church by having a video camera in the building – wear and tear, etc. Given the tiny size of video equipment today it is very likely that this will be nil. In any case it can be waived at your discretion. (unquote)

I had a situation a few years ago where I filmed a wedding at a local church where the female vicar had been in charge for many years and totally refused to allow any videoing in the church at all. However as the bridegroom had been an altar boy there for many years, she allowed him to have me video it. She even complimented me on how unobtrusive I had been. 2 years ago, a couple who wanted to get married there, told me that she completely refused permission for a video. I rang her and reminded her of her previous exception and compliments, and she reluctantly allowed me to film. However she insisted that the young couple who had two young children and a minimal income, would have to pay various costs and fees to the church because it was being videoed. The couple were already paying the church £560 for the wedding ceremony, organist and bells, and she insisted that they paid a further £500 because of the video filming. She obviously wanted to put it out of their price range, but they were determined and went ahead.

I had a long telephone conversation with the area Dean who I knew well and also put in a written complaint to the Bishop.detailing the legal requirements and moral ones. The net result following other complaints was that after 15 years of upsetting people, the vicar was suddenly moved two weeks ago to another post in a very difficult area many miles away.

I have since found that it is illegal for the church to make extra charges when a wedding is being videoed apart from those that can be justified as genuine extra costs incurred. So If there are any doubts at all about the conduct of the clergy, it should be put before the church authorities clearly and unequivically.

Roger

I have since found that it is illegal for the church to make extra charges when a wedding is being videoed apart from those that can be justified as genuine extra costs incurred. So If there are any doubts at all about the conduct of the clergy, it should be put before the church authorities clearly and unequivically.

Roger, may I ask your source for that. My understanding is that the top brass can issue guidelines but the final decision rests at local level. I also came across some guidelines (sorry can't remember source now) recommending that the fee structure be simplified so that any bill additions are kept to an absolute minimum and preferably not applied at all; this was in the context of trying to grab back some of the business that the CofE has lost to licensed civil venues, and the brass were aware that all the rules and fees were putting off prospective "clients".

Pete

Peter, I'll see of I can find the link again, I spent a couple of hours about two weeks ago trawling through a lot of CofE website pages and there are a number of different sites. I'll post it here if I can find it.

I did save the current 2013 forms that the church use for wedding charges that I can post if members would find them useful.

I'll get back when I find the relevant information.

Roger

I think this may be it
The reasonable and clear guide to charging for a wedding - The Weddings Project Resource Centre (http://justforvicars-yourchurchwedding.org/index.php/resources/factsheets/wedding-fees)

You beat me to it Oliver:-)There's some useful information there and I have filmed at many weddings where those guidelines have been ignored either deliberately or through ignorance.

There is also useful information through this C of E site http://www.churchofengland.org/media/1480935/2013%201%204%20%20faqs%20answers.pdf

Roger

I think this may be it
The reasonable and clear guide to charging for a wedding - The Weddings Project Resource Centre (http://justforvicars-yourchurchwedding.org/index.php/resources/factsheets/wedding-fees)

I have a copy of this too.... but guess what? It's only applicable to 'participating churches' !

I'm not sure how Roger found information to say it's illegal to charge more. Usually the claim is that the organist or choir wants paying "more" because they are being "recorded". So, if you can provide a link showing such illegality I would be grateful.

In the past I've even offered to over dub the music of the entrance and recessional for one couple and not record the hymns at all to save them money (and just pay the copyright on the recorded music) but the Vicar said that was unacceptable and the organist would need to be paid regardless of whether recorded him or not, simply because we 'could' and they'd have no control. When I raised the idea that even if I wasn't there, friends and family could also record him on their own camcorders or even iPhones the Vicar responded that "wasn't the same thing"!

In the end the extra church fee for video was £350, but I often wonder, did the organist really get all that extra, and did the HMRC get their cut? I think not.

I hesitate (nay, dread) the idea of regulation in markets such as wedding videography, but I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't actually help keep the cowboys and low budget people out and stop them screwing with the rest of us by their unprofessional conduct. But then I remember that where there's a rule that the good guys follow, there's almost always a way around it, and the cowboys will simply tell the couple to say their 'friend' was going to video it for them and then they'd bypass all the red tape.

< sigh >

David, as I said in my earlier post I'll link to it if I can find it again, it wasn't on the usual church website and I wish I had bookmarked it at the time.

Half the problem seems to be that people are afraid to question the Church and they just lay down and accept what they are told has to happen. The guidelines that Oliver linked to shows the legal charges that may be made, and the extent to which optional charges may be made. The word 'optional' is very important and the suggestion that optional charges may be exploited is something that the site I looked at was very concerned about. Any suggestion that optional charges are mandatory, or failure to disclose that they are optional could lead to accusations of illegal exploitation. It is also mad clear that any charges made by the church should me clearly invoiced or listed in case of any dispute.

Here is a section from the document that I linked to earlier, regarding the PCC fees:-
(Quote) 6 What does this mean in practice?
• New levels of fees came into effect from 1 January 2013.
• For the first time the Order specifies that parochial fees include any costs and expenses incurred in relation to a service for routine administration (including arranging dates and times and the making of entries in registers), making the church available and lighting it. It is unlawful to make any additional charge, besides the parochial fee, for these items. (Unquote)

Roger

Thanks Roger.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out in the coming months.

I did a job in September where the couple of secretly moaning to me about the church fees. They'd been charged £600 and the Vicar justified it by saying the church was 'old' and had 'extra upkeep costs'.

OK here is the link to an Anglican website that mentioned the illegality of certain charges
.http://www.lincoln.anglican.org/pdf_view.php?id=1031
Edited to add this one that I also just found. http://www.dioceseofyork.org.uk/diocesan-info/help-for-clergy/parochial-fees/

Roger

Those documents appear to be contradicted by this one issued by the Church of England in December 2012 for effect from January 2013. Search on "video" and it explicitly states that extras can be charged at the discretion of the parochial church council and video is listed under these extras.

http://www.churchofengland.org/media/1562401/2012%2012%2017%20guide%20to%20church%20of%20england%20parochial%20fees%20_2013_.pdf


Pete

I'm wondering if the 'law' being talked about is church law, and NOT a law covered by an act of parliament - if so, then it's Church of England only, isn't it?


On the CRB front, it also shows the vicar is ignorant of what CRB is? Self employed people cannot get a check carried out on themselves - because they'd have to ask questions about themselves, which just doesn't work. The new version also prevents self-checking. If the vicar wants the check, he would be the only person who could get it (and pay for it).

Those documents appear to be contradicted by this one issued by the Church of England in December 2012 for effect from January 2013. Search on "video" and it explicitly states that extras can be charged at the discretion of the parochial church council and video is listed under these extras.

http://www.churchofengland.org/media/1562401/2012%2012%2017%20guide%20to%20church%20of%20england%20parochial%20fees%20_2013_.pdf


Pete

An interesting find Peter as many of the points made seem to be in direct contradiction to some of the other documents. It appears that there are a number of variations depending on which section of the church organisation issued it.

So basically the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing and vicars are getting even more confused. What a ridiculous state of affairs particularly if one church decides that they will charge a totally random extra charge for having a videographer present at a wedding. On what basis would such a charge be made and in what way would the church incur extra costs by the presence of a videographer.

Even the link that you have added says that any extras must be fair and reasonable, and I can't see how that can be estimated. I have seen charges levied for permission to video during a 30 minute service that equates to £1000 per hour in the example I quoted earlier in the thread. I would certainly question the legality of that level of exploitation.

Roger

On the CRB front, it also shows the vicar is ignorant of what CRB is? Self employed people cannot get a check carried out on themselves - because they'd have to ask questions about themselves, which just doesn't work. The new version also prevents self-checking. If the vicar wants the check, he would be the only person who could get it (and pay for it).

I may be wrong here but surely the vicar would not be able to apply for a CRB check as he is not employing the videographer. If he could, then surely the videographer would equally be able to apply for a check on the vicar. I would have thought that only the couple contracting the videographer could possibly apply for a CRB check, but to the best of my knowledge and googling, an individual cannot apply for a check on another individual unless they are an employer, which the couple would no be in legal terms. If the videographer was booked through an agency, the agency might be able to apply for a disclosure check. In all cases, the permission of the videographer would be neccessary.

I am quite happy to be shown that is incorrect though as I am not an expert.

Roger

The vicar sounds like an imbecile ... It's reasons like this that wind me up doing Event videography.

The only person that needs to double check your skills and who you are as a person is the bride/groom employing you.

NO BODY ELSE.

The vicar sounds like an imbecile ... It's reasons like this that wind me up doing Event videography.

The only person that needs to double check your skills and who you are as a person is the bride/groom employing you.

NO BODY ELSE.

+1 James, I couldn't agree more!

Roger

The vicar could apply for a check on you, in the same way that a school/college can do it for guest speakers who may have close contact - think swimming coaches, dance specialists etc.

While I fully concur with everyone on how daft this appears, examples keep appearing all the time of people suddenly being revealed as having trouble in the past, and currently working with vulnerable people. If these people had had the check before employment, they'd not have got the job. This kind of makes the idea of the check sensible - but in this case, where exactly is the risk? There isn't one as far as I can see. A wedding seems the most unusual location for any form of 'incident'. Or maybe the vicar had to have one himself, and wants to make others suffer too!

Annoying too - because if he did the check, the video guy would have something positive for his CV - CRB checked!

The vicar could apply for a check on you, in the same way that a school/college can do it for guest speakers who may have close contact - think swimming coaches, dance specialists etc.

While I fully concur with everyone on how daft this appears, examples keep appearing all the time of people suddenly being revealed as having trouble in the past, and currently working with vulnerable people. If these people had had the check before employment, they'd not have got the job. This kind of makes the idea of the check sensible - but in this case, where exactly is the risk? There isn't one as far as I can see. A wedding seems the most unusual location for any form of 'incident'. Or maybe the vicar had to have one himself, and wants to make others suffer too!

Annoying too - because if he did the check, the video guy would have something positive for his CV - CRB checked!

Sorry Paul but I still don't see on what legal basis a vicar could apply for a CRB check on a videographer. He is paid to supply a service to the couple in the same way that the videographer is. The videographer is contracted to the couple and the vicar is not responsible for the protection of their guests. Neither can he as an individual apply for a CRB check on another individual.

A school on the other hand is a completely different situation, as in the circumstances that you refer to, the school is an organisation who are responsible for the safety of children at that school. The videographer is unlikely to be in as close proximity to the guests at a wedding as the guests are themselves, so should a CRB check be made on all guests just incase?

I think including 'CRB checked' on a videographers CV is just as likely make prospective clients wonder why he needed to be checked in the first place. It's a bit like putting 'This Man is not a Child molester', what's the point?

Roger

Realize, I'm across the ocean.

Over here, churches (Dioceses) often have written policies mandating certain requirements pertaining to the safety of children etc. Background checks, and special training, are mandatory at the church where I'm a member. The vicar may only be following church policy. The background check actually may have nothing to do with copyright at all. More likely, it's something to do with a written security policy.

Occasionally, corporate clients and government agencies, for instance my county's school board, also require background checks for videographers. And they require them. That doesn't mean they will help you obtain one.