Before anyone says it, yes, I have searched and searched this forum for some advice that applies, but much of it seems either out of date, conjecture or a debate that provides no clear answer.

I record choral concerts for elementary, middle and high schools for video. I then sell these DVDs to parents, student and families. I'd like to know that I am in full compliance with copyright laws. I do not, at the present time, record weddings.

How do I go about obtaining the proper licensing for these performances? Assuming it takes a few weeks if there is no blanket license, how am I supposed to know what pieces are being performed in enough to time to apply? What is everyone doing in this situation? Being fully aware that outside of the US it appears to be very easy, I don't even know where to begin here. Many of the services that others have mentioned, such as Harry Fox, do not seem to handle the type of license this falls under. Which, from what I can find, is called a "Commercial Videogram Synchronization License". Meanwhile, I have competitors that "claim" be in fully licensed and are keeping me landing projects because of this.

I feel like the guy on "Moonshiners"! I want to be legit, but I don't know where to start. Help!

Luckily the UK have a really simple system, but I understand the US situation is more complex. If I didn't use the simple system here, the process would be to shoot the event, itemise the music content, contact copyright agencies, or if they do not hold the rights, the individual record companies, get permission, produce the DVDs. Most people would probably start producing the DVDs, and not wait, because the time delay can be terrible. The dangers of course are that if after producing the DVDs one or more pieces do not get approved or licensed.

There's an element of risk - but problem tracks are pretty well known, so the experienced can avoid problematic artistes or record companies.

Hopefully somebody your side if the water can give accurate advice - but I bet the situation over your way is horrible

That's why I cannot believe that many in this industry are going to those lengths, even if they claim to. Difficult to fathom removing a piece where someone's child had a solo well after they preordered a DVD for that reason.

WEVA has a licensing service, but it looks as if it only covers the actual use of a song by the original artist.

Are you using prerecorded music during the show or are you asking about rights for using printed music?

I suspect that licensing costs would far exceed the cost of your product.

Simply recording the choirs performing music. So the rights pertaining to the copyrighted music they are using.

For two years, I did what you describe for an annual school event. Researching who actually administered the rights (not always who wrote it or published it) usually took 30-60 days of calendar time with all the back and forth emails and phone messages. At the end of the day, it wasn't worth it. Licensing costs alone for a typical concert added up to be $300-$500.

But to answer your question, AFAIK, there is no one stop license. Some places won't even return your emails. Others only respond to phone calls and yet others couldn't be bothered with your piddly little job.

Here's a set of links. The first set will help you find who has the copyright to the song. The second will help you track down who may currently administer the rights to it.

Links for researching:
PD Info-Public Domain and Royalty Free Music (http://www.pdinfo.com/index.php)
The Harry Fox Agency (http://www.harryfox.com/index.jsp)
EMI Music Publishing | Where Songs Live (http://www.emimusicpub.com/)
ASCAP Error Page (http://www.ascap.com/index.aspx)
Search | BMI.com (http://bmi.com/search/)
SESAC Home (http://www.sesac.com/)
Library of Congress Online Catalogs (http://catalog.loc.gov/)

Links to popular license administration companies:
Publishers Represented | Music Services (http://www.musicservices.org/publishers_represented)
PERMISSIONSplus | Christian Copyright Solutions (http://www.copyrightsolver.com/VideoReadyLicense.aspx)
http://www.integritymusic.com/copyright
http://www.provident-integrity.com/faq/masteruse.html
The Loving Company - Music Publishing Permission Request (http://www.thelovingcompany.com/requestform.asp)
Warner/Chappell Music (http://www.warnerchappell.com/wcm_2/home2.jsp)
www.synchexpress.com (http://www.synchexpress.com/home.aspx)

This is the email I sent to a copyright owner while seeking to find out who administers the rights:
To whom it may concern:
We sell DVDs of xyzxyzxyz concert. To do so, we need Synchronization licenses for the works performed. I am trying track down who administers Sync Licenses for <insert publisher name here> Title <insert song title here> by <insert song writer and/or arranger name(s) here>.
Can you point me to who administers sync licenses?

This is the email I sent to a music licensing firm:
re:Request to purchase Synchronization License
To whom it may concern:
We are blah blah blah.*We wish to request terms and conditions for a synchronization license. The project is xyzxyzxyz DVD video*of the blah blah blah school’s live performance of the work named below. *

Song Title: "<insert song title here>" by <insert writer and/or arranger name(s) here>
Project Title: xyzxyzxyz
Project Description: xyzxyzxyz DVD recording*of the school’s live performance of the work. * *
Party to whom license is to be issued: <insert name address of licensee>
Date of Performance: <date>
Date of Release: <date>
Selling Price is $xyz
Quantity: xyz
Territory is US
Admission Fee: none
*
Contact information for the license is: <insert your contact info>

Thanks, Les. I cannot begin to imagine the costs involved with an all-day choral event that features 40 groups performing two songs each - which I have been asked to do.

So, does one simply avoid events such as this? Suck it up and pay the exorbitant fees involved (even though the costs practically wipe out any profit that would have been there for me)? Go ahead and take the job seeing as it has been done without these permissions for decades? Talk about frustrating...

Rey, when I moved to videography full time seven years ago, I wanted the same straightforward, educated answer you're looking for. I researched for months and asked several video and legal professionals. The straightforward, educated answer I eventually had to force myself to accept was this:

In this country, and in this day and age, it is not possible to do what you're doing and do it legally.

Seriously. The legal model for your business does not exist. You'll get a lot of videographers telling you that you're capturing "incidental audio" but I am convinced that's just an excuse that helps them sleep better at night! ;) In order to legally sell your recordings, you'd have to obtain mechanical reproduction rights for each piece of music performed. If you, as an individual videographer, tried to call each company and request to purchase these rights, you would probably be told that no method exists for them to issue a license for such a small project. Boom - your project is dead, unless you decide to just push forward and sell it, legal rights be damned. Bottom line, your competitors are lying. I guess that's not a surprise. After all, if they're willing to produce these illegal videos, why would they not lie about being "fully licenced"?

In the end, I decided it was simply not worth pursuing this type of work and focused 100% on corporate video where I have complete control of the content.

Go ahead and take the job seeing as it has been done without these permissions for decades? Talk about frustrating...

The difference is THESE DAYS the likelihood of someone posting a clip online where it can be more easily caught is very high. I USED to do dance recital videos multicam lived switched at a 2500 seat concert hall for VHS sales to the parents (yes... it was THAT long ago that I realized this was a losing proposition). The idea was that NO ONE was going to do anything with the video but watch it in their own home so frankly what I was doing was exactly what anyone with a camcorder would be doing, in the eyes of the organizers. I sold my SERVICES to the dance school and they sold the end product.

Am I claiming it was legal and licensed? No. But if the VHS sales weren't available, every parent would scramble to the front to get footage of THEIR child's dance routine. At the time it seemed like a workable solution. Then the school wanted to up-the-ante on production values, move to DVD and generally increase the attention being paid.

I got out while the getting was good.

The venue had SOCAN licensing for live performance of the material. Frankly, the recording and distribution was the only part that wasn't straight up legal. I got out and won't do that sort of business anymore even though frankly as a technical director/switcher, I'm REALLY good at it.

Do I miss the revenue? Yes. Am I willing to infringe upon someone else's copyright to earn that living today? No.

Rey,
The licensing on work like that is about reason number 15 not to do it :) I think #1 I can't see how it can be profitable enough to make the time, work, and hassle worth it. #2 having to watch those routines and listen to the black eyed peas for the 99th time. I've got 13 more before we get to licensing, but I think Chris Davis is absolutely right, there's no financial or conceivable way to make it legal. You have to decide intentionally whether to break the law and do it, or find some other way to make some money. Just my 2 cents. Here's a few more. #3 lighting is always terrible. #4 sound is always terrible. Should I go on?
Bill

As far as I can see the UK Limited Manufacture Licence allows me to correctly licence music for discs that are manufactured & sold in the UK but where the performance was recorded is irrelevant. So the loophole is there to set up a US/UK joint production company to film school concerts in the US & manufacture & distribute the discs in the EU. We would have to work out some sort of back channel to get the finished discs shipped back to the US after they had been sold but I am sure that would not be an insuperable problem:-)

Limited Manufacture Licence (LM) (http://www.prsformusic.com/users/recordedmedia/cdsandvinyl/Pages/LimitedManufactureLicence(LM).aspx)
http://www.prsformusic.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/LM%20FAQs.pdf
http://www.prsformusic.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/LM%20TandC.pdf

Very disappointing to read all of these answers, but I do appreciate hearing of your own experiences.

Nigel, you may be my saving grace! I'm on the east coast, so if I could just find a bottle big enough to hold the discs...

Rey each of these schools needs to have performance rights to all the songs they perform. If it were me and I wanted to try and chase down licensing, I would pick a school where I was familiar with the choral director, find out where they get their licensing and go backwards from there. Chances are it will be close to a dead end, but it would be an honest attempt.

Another option could be to see if there are local bands who have done DVDs and sold them on a larger scale. We were approached some time ago by one band to do the shooting and editing for their DVD, but passed as the size of the project was beyond our capacity. During discussion I bought up licensing and Eric's answer was "we are going to take care of all licensing" and I left it at that. They did finally produce their DVD, although I know no more about it, the licensing or the success of it. Link to them is here.

BOOGIE AND THE YO-YO'Z (http://www.yoyoz.com/index.html)

I bought up licensing and Eric's answer was "we are going to take care of all licensing" and I left it at that.

Under CANADIAN law at least, liability is not transferable and the PRODUCER is required to secure/ensure appropriate clearances. You can't have your client sign a contract saying "I promise to incur all liability stemming from use of copyright material" for instance, at least that is the professional opinion of my legal counsel.

Under CANADIAN law at least, liability is not transferable and the PRODUCER is required to secure/ensure appropriate clearances. You can't have your client sign a contract saying "I promise to incur all liability stemming from use of copyright material" for instance, at least that is the professional opinion of my legal counsel.

Same here Shaun. Because this specific band had put out some CDs, one now available on iTunes, from our conversation I could tell Eric had every intention of acquiring rights. Because we bowed out when we did, I do not know how successful that may or may not have been. But he is the closest I know of who may have navigated the licensing rights waters.

Rey, I just finished exactly what you want to do. I'm an IP attorney, which helped me some, but below I just give practical advice, no legal advice, OK? OK.

1. I'm ASSUMING that the school children are singing standard fare, i.e., from sheet music that is for choruses. This includes sacred and secular.

2. You don't need to worry about any music in the public domain, e.g., something that Mozart penned a few hundred years ago. This DOES NOT apply to copyrighted arrangements of something Mozart penned. Be careful.

3. Copyright is NOT just a single right, it is a bundle of rights. You don't necessarily need all of them. Videotaping a bunch of kids singing from sheet music that is copyrighted, no matter if you or the school sells DVD's of the recording, requires a synchronization license. (A mechanical license applies to CD/audio recordings; you don't need this.)

4. Find out WHO is the copyright owner. Usually this is printed on the bottom of the first page of music. BE CAREFUL. Sometimes an agency or third party handles the copyright. You just have to Google this information, which usually is available on the sheet music publisher's website. It is a pain; for about 12 pieces, I burned two evenings doing this. Get it right. Harry Fox Agency website is helpful to find or verify some of this information.

5. Some publishers have web forms, others just e-mail addresses to field licensing inquiries. They are self-explanatory. Most folks at music publishers are responsive, very friendly, and willing to help. You tell them the title of the piece, how many copies, DVD only, what it's for and where, etc. Ask them for terms and conditions for a synch license. In my case, I added the fact that some of the proceeds would benefit the school. Hey, you never know when a copyright holder might extend some grace.

6. The publishers ( = usually the copyright holders) will respond, hopefully, with the license fee. How much? For school stuff, it ranges from $0.20 - $0.25 per song per disc. Synch licences are NOT compulsory, meaning that a copyright holder does not have to grant you a license.

7. Plan all of the above AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. Talk to the school's choir director and ask for a list of all music just as soon as s/he has the final list. Then get started pronto. Publishers are slammed. Some get back to you within days, others weeks, and still others perhaps months. Pay them promptly. If disc sales exceed the number of discs specified in the license, then you go back to them and negotiate another license.

8. Look, this isn't complicated. It is time-consuming. I just gave you a gold-plated road map that I didn't have. Licensing fees are the singlemost expensive part of the school chorus DVD production. But these are chump change compared to what you'd pay for the kids singing, say, a Beyonce song. If that is the case, then, well, you have to decide if you can afford to be legal.

9. If there is a soundtrack that accompanies the choir(s), that is probably copyrighted, too. You need a license for that.

10. A few more important words: if you decide to 'fly under the radar' and not get licenses, then you and the school could incur legal exposure. Chances of getting caught are likely minimal, but think hard now...

I hope this was "educated" enough for you.

P.S. The school's performance of copyrighted music falls within a narrow exemption of the copyright law. Now suppose the school wanted to videotape and sell DVD's themselves. Do they then need a synch license? Yep. If a school says words to the effect of "oh, we're covered," press for details. BE CAREFUL. Remember, copyright is a bundle. The school has just a part of that, and you need another.

P.P.S. I'm still deciding whether this is worth the hassle, i.e., to at least pay for my avocation. I can say without reservation that I would never, ever, hold a gun to my head, make a living by shooting school concerts.

...Look, this isn't complicated. It is time-consuming. I just gave you a gold-plated road map that I didn't have. ...

Gold plated roadmap? and post #7 is chopped liver? LOL

Gold plated roadmap? and post #7 is chopped liver? LOL

I certainly don't think so, Les, but maybe the OP likes liver more than my advice.

BTW, I dashed off my post before reading the entire thread in detail. Mea culpa. I see that you chimed in earlier with a lot of similar if not identical comments.

Videotaping a bunch of kids singing from sheet music that is copyrighted, no matter if you or the school sells DVD's of the recording, requires a synchronization license.

This makes me curious: what if the kids sing memorized music (so music that was originally copyrighted on the score, but sing it with no score?)

Or, another wrinkle: what if the kids sing a Beyoncé song that has been completely re-arranged by someone at the school or by one of the kids? Is that still copyrighted?

All very intriguing! Sounds like it's better to stick to Handel.

This makes me curious: what if the kids sing memorized music (so music that was originally copyrighted on the score, but sing it with no score?)

Or, another wrinkle: what if the kids sing a Beyoncé song that has been completely re-arranged by someone at the school or by one of the kids? Is that still copyrighted?

All very intriguing! Sounds like it's better to stick to Handel.

1. Yes. Kids memorizing music, kids staring at notes, kids holding their noses covering one eye and singing out of tune . . . if it's copyrighted music they're singing, you need a license to record it. It's not a wrinkle; it is black and white. (Clever try, but don't leave class early.)

2. This is called a derivative work. I won't comment on this because your hypothetical leaves out too many facts for a helpful answer, but it is probably "yes."

Your last remark calls to mind ONE way to make this a profitable business without licensing fees eating into profit: record choral or orchestral performances in which all music and arrangements thereof are in the public domain. Something classical should be easy pickings, e.g., my Mozart example from above.

Not trying to be clever or pull a fast one, Steve. Honest questions on my part. Fortunately, the little music I do is classical!

Steven & Les,

Thanks for the invaluable information that you shared. I'm supposed to hear back today on how this other company received licensing for the 80+ songs that are performed in this concert. Should be interesting, but I have my doubts. A yearly, one hour concert is one thing, but managing 80 pieces of music from so many groups and providing "same day take home" DVDs of the performances legally, just does not seem possible to me, based on the information I have been given above. They've either found a fast track or they just aren't being straight with the directors.

Steven & Les,

Thanks for the invaluable information that you shared. I'm supposed to hear back today on how this other company received licensing for the 80+ songs that are performed in this concert. Should be interesting, but I have my doubts. A yearly, one hour concert is one thing, but managing 80 pieces of music from so many groups and providing "same day take home" DVDs of the performances legally, just does not seem possible to me, based on the information I have been given above. They've either found a fast track or they just aren't being straight with the directors.

Rey, a cottage industry of companies is set up specifically to negotiate and acquire licenses of this type (and others, too). In essence, you give them a list of titles, a check, and they get your licenses. I don't think one pays simply for convenience; I understand that the folks at these companies have good rapport with licensing officials at publishers, and their fee probably accounts for 'insider' knowledge and expertise.

In any case, I'm more than a little curious, like you, on how Company B is practically managing the licenses for 80+ songs.

Just an idea: If in the remote chance that you find out that Company B is committing copyright infringement, you could blow a whistle at the involved music publishers. Some even have formal mechanisms to receive such information. I'm just saying that this is one way you could curtail Company B in your area. But think about throwing stones around glass houses . . .

More grist for the mill: In the school concert scenario, I think the only realistic way to be legal and profitable, aside from use of public domain music as I mentioned, is to sell a LOT of discs. This is because most publishers in my experience will grant a license for, say, a run of 50 or 200 discs. You pay ~ $0.25/song/disc. If you sell more discs, terrific, and you negotiate a license for the additional run. The problem is not being able to sell more than, say, 40 discs total. Now you've paid an effective premium license fee for each song, right? And you can't simply ratchet up your price/disc to pass along that premium to parents, or else you won't sell as many discs and, hence, you eat that premium.

"Company B" has been asked by the directors to provide me with their method and all information needed to obtain the same licensing. They've not yet responded to that request. Should be interesting.

My bride has contacted other local companies to provide the same service under the same scenario and so far, they have said that this "copyright thing" is handled by the schools. Yeah, right.

And as far as selling enough discs to cover the cost of licensing, I'll be able to FULLY enforce a "No Taping" policy regardless of the venue by having the copyright laws on my side. Thus, resulting in more sales.

"Company B" has been asked by the directors to provide me with their method and all information needed to obtain the same licensing. They've not yet responded to that request. Should be interesting.

My bride has contacted other local companies to provide the same service under the same scenario and so far, they have said that this "copyright thing" is handled by the schools. Yeah, right.

Well, don't hold your breath, Rey. Put yourself in Company B's shoes, as I'm sure you have. What would you do or say? You don't need to reach the question of whether they're above board because, on the one hand, compliance with directors would have them (reluctantly?) divulge their hard work and secrets to you and, on the other hand, non-compliance probably wouldn't curry favor with the directors. If I were you, I'd step back and just watch the chips fall.

Anyway, it is POSSIBLE that schools will take care of licensing. Likely? Uh-uh. If a school said that to me, I would ask for and scrutinize copies of each and every license. Else, I might set up an agreement by which the school would indemnify me for liability, but that's a nasty road I wouldn't want to travel.

As I mentioned above, school performances where admission isn't charged fall into a narrow exemption of the copyright law. Schools know this, or at least have a vague notion of its truth. That could be the sum and substance of their knowledge of that "copyright thing." We're covered, so you (the videographer) are, too. Right? No, not right. Mention a synch license to a school and you'll likely get a glazed expression in response. That's understandable; it's not the school's business to know about a synch license if all they're doing is performing copyrighted works.

Here's a gem you'll hear time and time again: "I gave credit (or attribution) to the copyright holder, so I'm OK with that copyright thing." Um, no, what you've done is expressly admit your knowledge that (1) the work is copyrighted and (2) you infringed it. Just be on the lookout for statements to this effect.

Best wishes!

And as far as selling enough discs to cover the cost of licensing, I'll be able to FULLY enforce a "No Taping" policy regardless of the venue by having the copyright laws on my side. Thus, resulting in more sales.

I thought about that, too, but I didn't think for long. Your business isn't mine, I know, so this is how I handled it.

Option A: I want concert-goers to have a positive image of me, so here is how I spun it: you (concert-goer) can sit back, relax, and enjoy the concert, and know that you can purchase a professional DVD/Blu-ray of your kid's performance. Done. The unspoken message is that the concert-goer is free to take a crummy video on their cell phone or iPad whilst dodging heads and flipping through the program, settling down younger siblings, etc.

Option B: you the concert-goer are forbidden to videotape anything because I want to commercialize your kid's performance. If you videotape it, you commit copyright infringement. Want to see the performance? Then you buy it from me.

I'm being a little dramatic, but the point is that I generated business with a carrot, not a stick. If you or anyone reading this has an Option C, I'd love to read about it.

Option A is the way I have always handled it.

The director of this particular event has contacted the other company (they have a scheduling conflict and are unable to take on the job this year), after I expressed concern over the copyright issues. He says that they are very nice and cooperative and want to share all of their information with me. I'm waiting patiently...

The "no taping" policy can also be rationalized/justified by pointing out how annoying it is to see those several cell phones pop up above the heads in the audience in the professional video! (In some venues, it's nearly impossible to get a high enough angle above the audience so as to crop out any and all annoyingly positioned cell phones which are taping the event).

In other words, you could also say: please, no taping of this event. The cell phones may block/come into the frame of the professional's video. (If only we could say that for the folks along the aisle at weddings.)

You have to balance on being too militant on the "no other video taping" position. Remember, You still need to be able to show them in the performance. Most schools do not get formal releases from all of the performers and they technically should. Without them, a parent could object to having their child's performance on the video and then you could be really screwed.

On a note for the Classical music recordings. I just started to do some of these for a local symphony. I learned from a visiting soloist that commissioned me to shoot her performance that the AFM (American Federation of Musicians) has some regulations regarding recording performances. Just more rules and regulations because our lives aren't complicated enough.

I think it's time to review our business plan. This whole copyright thing has left a really bad taste in my mouth. :(

On a note for the Classical music recordings. I just started to do some of these for a local symphony. I learned from a visiting soloist that commissioned me to shoot her performance that the AFM (American Federation of Musicians) has some regulations regarding recording performances. Just more rules and regulations because our lives aren't complicated enough.

Like what, Garrett? The AFM is a labor union, not a regulation-promulgating body. Perhaps dealing with a musician who is a member of an AFM local means negotiating with a third party, but I don't think it means having to comply with yet another layer of law. I'm interested in hearing what you learn from your soloist or anyone else who is an AFM member.

I think it's time to review our business plan. This whole copyright thing has left a really bad taste in my mouth. :(

Rey, I can't empathize more. Honestly. Waxing thoughtful for a moment, I believe that thousands (millions?) of copyright infringers, individual or corporate or small business, running scot free on the web and little town America has lulled a populace into believing, willfully or through sheer ignorance, that they somehow don't need or have to comply with copyright laws.

Until someone gets stung. I don't want to be that someone, I'm sure you don't either, and that's probably why you cared enough to post in the first place, right? Think of the "bad taste" as just a bad aftertaste of swallowing what the populace gorges on everyday. (And if you find a good business model, would you mind posting it here, royalty-free of course? ;) )

Steve, you are correct that "regulation" is not the correct term. Coming from a public policy (engineering wise) regulations to me signifies a statutory requirement. A better description would be binding agreements for their members. I'm still trying to wade through all of it but the basics are that the artists can have certain performances recorded as long as it doesn't involve a certain number of other "Professional" artists. Like I said I'm still working through all of the requirements but at this point I'm relying on the artists to make the request for me to record them or not. I know ignorance is not a defense but at this point I have I don't have all of it figured out.

You pay ~ $0.25/song/disc

I could be wrong here.... but $0.25 per song per disc x 80 songs = $20 per disc in royalties alone.

Add the cost of production and I'd say making a profit is going to be somewhat tough.

Am I wrong?

There was actually going to be two songs per disc (40 groups / 2 songs each). Even so, I'm turning down the job. No way to jump through those hoops in just over a month.

I could be wrong here.... but $0.25 per song per disc x 80 songs = $20 per disc in royalties alone.

Add the cost of production and I'd say making a profit is going to be somewhat tough.

Am I wrong?

Your math is correct. A+. ;)

However, I would challenge a few unstated assumptions:

1. Not necessarily all songs require a license. Public domain works are exempt, as discussed above. Further, some copyright holders may grant a license gratis. My last production featured an example of each. Hence, I paid no licensing fees for 2 songs.

2. Assuming fixed licensing fees and other costs, then price per disc will govern profit, right? In my economically robust locale, $20-30 is roughly the price for a DVD of a typical school concerts, which in my experience are about 1h long. (In other and economically soft areas of the U.S., prices are as low as ~$15/disc.) That length accommodates, say, 10-14 songs. Now you do your math again. Not so bad now.

Not no way, not no how would I charge $20-30 for producing 80 songs, no matter how many discs it took!! I'd either charge a lot more, and justifiably so, or else parse the entire production into smaller units for individual sale, as Rey illustrated in his follow-on post.

There was actually going to be two songs per disc (40 groups / 2 songs each). Even so, I'm turning down the job. No way to jump through those hoops in just over a month.

Rey, a month is pushing it, but it could be done. I get licenses in place from MOST publishers within about 2 weeks from the dates of placing requests. (In a few instances, I heard back in less than a day!) It's the few outliers who take their time for whatever reasons that will create the headaches.