Hello everyone.

Now that I've got somewhat of a handle on the input side of things between my mic (AT 822stereo) via the right cables, which are on their way, I'd like to touch on the output side of things. So if you'll indulge me...

First, I am also well into Jay Rose's audio book, and there is lots of great information there that, in addition to here, will help out the quality and understanding of my own audio practices.

My intention is to find the best solution to hook up the Shure FP 33 mixer to a Canon Hv30 camcorder for recording audio. If you have any questions for me I can respond to them as best as I can as we go along.

For connections, I obviously won't be connecting the L and R outs from mixer to the camera, since the camera takes a 1/8" mini pin connector (three pole I think). Unless you think there is a adaptor and that's the way to go.

The mixer also has a "Tape Out" as well, also mini pin. And then there are the headphone female out of which there is a 1/8 mini and 1/4" TRS.

So how would you guys go from the mixer to the camcorder?

I don't believe the HV30 has an auto gain switch, but I know that you can set the levels for sound manually and lock them, if that's any help. There is also a menu item you can set for "Attenuation on/off", but not sure which to set that using the set-up above.

If you guys recommend either cabling out from the headphone monitor on mixer or the tape out on the mixer, both 1/8" mini, would I use a stereo plug/cable from mixer to stereo plug input on the camera?

Regardless of how I cable this thing, would I use the mixer tone generator to set the level on the camcorder? On this I'm guessing yes, so that everything is at the same level.

I leave it here. If you have any insights or have used an HV30 connected in some fashion, please let me know your thoughts. And if you have any questions I can answer.

On a final note, When I've work on semi pro-pro camera set ups, running the xlrs from mixer to the xlrs into the camera were pretty straight forward. The question is how the HV30 will play with a professional piece of audio equipment like a mixer.

Thanks.

Jonathan

...My intention is to find the best solution to hook up the Shure FP 33 mixer to a Canon Hv30 camcorder for recording audio....For connections, I obviously won't be connecting the L and R outs from mixer to the camera, since the camera takes a 1/8" mini pin connector (three pole I think). Unless you think there is a adaptor and that's the way to go.
If you will ONLY be using your HV30 camcorder with the Shure FP33 mixer, then you probably don't need an adapter cable. But if you ever want to plug ANY microphone directly into your HV30, then you will need the same kind of adapter cable that you would use to connect the FP33 to the HV30.

The mixer also has a "Tape Out" as well, also mini pin. And then there are the headphone female out of which there is a 1/8 mini and 1/4" TRS....So how would you guys go from the mixer to the camcorder?
The "TapeOut" is designed specifically to feed camcorders like the HV30. I can't think of any reason to use any other output from the FP33.

I don't believe the HV30 has an auto gain switch, but I know that you can set the levels for sound manually and lock them, if that's any help.If you can "set the sound levels manually and lock them", then you HAVE an auto gain switch by definition. If you can lock the audio gain, then you are turning OFF the auto gain.

There is also a menu item you can set for "Attenuation on/off", but not sure which to set that using the set-up above.
You may need to use this feature if the output from the FP33 is too high.

If you guys recommend either cabling out from the headphone monitor on mixer or the tape out on the mixer, both 1/8" mini, would I use a stereo plug/cable from mixer to stereo plug input on the camera?
Since the "TAPE OUT" is specifically designed for this use, it would seem foolish to try to use anything else.

You would need a simple cable with a 3.5mm TRS ("stereo") connector at each end. RadioShack sells cables like these in several colors(!) For example: Catalog #: 42-961 for $4

NOTE: Unless it is already done to your unit, the FP33 must be modified internally to output MIC-LEVEL to that connector. The instructions to do this are in the User Guide at the top of page 9. You MUST make this signal mic-level or it will NOT work with your HV30. THIS IS MANDATORY, not an option. If you don't/can't do this, then you must use the XLR outputs (with the appropriate adapter cable) set to mic-level.

Regardless of how I cable this thing, would I use the mixer tone generator to set the level on the camcorder? On this I'm guessing yes, so that everything is at the same level.
I don't remember what the audio arrangement is on the HV30. If you have manual level adjustments on the camcorder, AND if you have an audio level indication on the camcorder, then yes, the tone generator will make it easier to set and match the levels between the mixer and the camcorder. But many of us do this without a tone generator, so that isn't a show-stopper.

I've got the HV20 and HV40. As well as the on board mic, there's only an external stereo mic input on this series of cams, no line input for any mixers.

As Richard said, switch the Shures output to mic, and plug its 'tape out' to your HV30 external mic in. Use as short a cable as you can.

You can use its tone oscillator to match your HV30s input level. There's more about this in the HV30 manual and in general, in your Jay Rose book.

For voice recording, use the Shures limiter to keep the levels in check and monitor with headphones from the HV30, there should be enough level.
Practise practise Johnathon :)

Never switch the 48V phantom power 'on' until you connect all your 48V mics to the mixer. Do the reverse when you're finished your session.

Cheers.

Richard. Thanks for all that!

So far it seems that the proper way to go is from the tape out to the mic in, if the mixer is set up to handle mic level per your note. I'll check that out.

How about this scenerio: I actually have a short cable/adapter that has a female xlr at one end, and the stereo mini pin at the other. Could I plug this into either the left or right out on the mixer (set tor mic level), connect to the HV30?

My goal is to get a left and right soundtrack from the camcorder.

And is this nuts? How about a custom adapter: two female xlr (left and right on mixer) to mini pin stereo other end. Or would I be able to get left and right sound out from cmcorder using the single xlr from either L or R on mixer to camera?

And lastly, I'm assuming that if I wanted to do something like record to HD on a laptop, the same rules apply?

Always appreciate your help.

Best to you.

Jonathan

How about this scenerio: I actually have a short cable/adapter that has a female xlr at one end, and the stereo mini pin at the other. Could I plug this into either the left or right out on the mixer (set tor mic level), connect to the HV30?

Probably NOT! Remember, the 3.5mm mic input on your camcorder is STEREO UNBALANCED, and the XLR out of the mixer (either one of them) is MONAURAL BALANCED. These are NOT compatible! You must have a special adapter/cable wired to take the balanced XLR source and feed the unbalanced stereo input of your camcorder. Of course, this would the the same adapter/cable you would use to just plug a conventional monaural microphone directly into the camcorder.

And this is NOT the same as a special XLR cable/adapter made for a stereo microphone.

My goal is to get a left and right soundtrack from the camcorder.
Yes, understood. You can use either a 3.5mm cable from the TAPE OUT of the mixer to the mic input of your camcorder, or a special Y-cable (sort of the opposite of what you need for your stereo mic) to come from two monaural XLR outputs to a stereo unbalanced 3.5mm mini-phone input.

And is this nuts? How about a custom adapter: two female xlr (left and right on mixer) to mini pin stereo other end.
Yes, that is exactly what you need if you want to use the big, clunky XLR connectors. But since you have a nice 3.5mm stereo mini-phone TAPE OUT from your mixer, dunno why you would want to mess with a big, bulky, awkward dual XLR to 3.5mm cable/adapter?

Or would I be able to get left and right sound out from cmcorder using the single xlr from either L or R on mixer to camera?
NO. The XLR outputs on the the mixer are balanced monaural. (That is why there are two of them, one for Left and one for Right). Be advised that 99.5% of all audio XLR connections are balanced monaural. Don't be confused by the non-standard XLR connection on your stereo microphone. It is BY FAR an exception and NOT typical of audio XLR connections!

And lastly, I'm assuming that if I wanted to do something like record to HD on a laptop, the same rules apply?
No. (Depending on what connection you are talking about to your laptop). If your laptop has a STEREO audio input (mic level or line level) then yes this might work. But except for a few odd Mac notebooks, it is EXTRAORDINARILY RARE to find a stereo audio INPUT on a laptop. Now, you can use a little USB audio adapter that has stereo in and out and those are great. But the only audio input most laptop computers have is a MONAURAL microphone input (which is also wired in a "non-standard" way).

Once had to hook up an HV30 to the audio output of an ac-powered mixer. Found that when the HV30 was used with the canon ac adapter, I got a ground loop (hum). Didn't do this when run on battery power, however. Might apply in your situation...

Once had to hook up an HV30 to the audio output of an ac-powered mixer. Found that when the HV30 was used with the canon ac adapter, I got a ground loop (hum). Didn't do this when run on battery power, however. Might apply in your situation...

Yes lots of smaller (consumer) camcorders and MOST laptop computers are NOTORIOUS for their ground loop (and power supply horrible noise) when used with their AC "brick" adapters.

The tape out of the FP33 is line level. Switching the XLR inputs or outputs to mic level doesn't change that. Your camera is mic level so you have an impedance mis-match. The line level will have to be padded.

A Juicedlink box is the better choice over the FP33 in this case.

The tape out of the FP33 is line level. Switching the XLR inputs or outputs to mic level doesn't change that. Your camera is mic level so you have an impedance mis-match. THe line level witll have to be padded.

A Juicedlink box is the better choice over the FP33 in this case.

The Shure FP33 has built-in provision to switch the TAPE OUT to mic-level. (See user manual page 9)
Levels have nothing to do with impedance. The FP33 has sufficiently low output impedance that there is no issue here.

Awesome. Didn't know that. Hope it's useful someday. Thanks.

Alan, I must have been type my reply whn yours came in. The Jay Rose book is really helpfull. I still reading and re-reading the first few chapters that deals with some math stuff, plus I'm a slow leaarner.

I will get the shortest cable possible for between the mixer and camera, since both will be near me when I shoot.

And yes, practice, practice, practice. Read. Read. Read. I'm using my slow time, between Christmas and Memorial Day, to work through all this ;-}

And Richard, thanks again. Tape out to camera is the way to go then. Can I ask a you, is it just standard that the mic input on the HV30 or most camcorders that the input is un-balanced. I'm looking at page 103 in the Canon manual in the spec for Mic "3.5mm stereo minijack, -57dBV (with 600 ohm microphone) 5 kohms or more". I could be so new to this that the answer is right there and I just don't know it.

Camera manuals sure don't help a whole lot, it seems.

And about the laptop situation, once again I forgot what was sitting right in front of me, my M-Audio Fastrack Pro interface. I think for my VO only work, my practices will be to use that.

I will check out page 9 of the FP33 manual. Not certain if that is a dip switch setting or if it involves soldiering something. But I'll look into that today.

As far as using AC power, I use that exclusively if I know I'm going to conduct a stationary interview. I have not had any problem (i don't think, but then again, want to go from aceptable audo to a least good audio).

Is the noise issue something that occurs mostly when a camcorder is connected to mixer? And I'm assuming this is not an issue with prosumer units that have balanced input (xlr) Or just use the camera in battery mode. Thanks Battle.

Thanks fellas.

Jonathan

Quote: Is the noise issue something that occurs mostly when a camcorder is connected to mixer? And I'm assuming this is not an issue with prosumer units that have balanced input (xlr) Or just use the camera in battery mode. Thanks Battle.

A ground loop occurs when there is a voltage difference between two grounds, as I understand it -- Richard will probably have a better explanation --- but there's a small voltage signal existing between the ground side of your camera's ac adapter and the ground side of your audio input's ac power supply that causes the hum. If you eliminate one or the other ac source, the hum goes away. We had to run the camera on battery to eliminate the problem.

(Aside) Personal to Richard C, are you the same Richard Crowley I went to college with in Memphis in the 60's by any chance? We were both into stills and 16mm film then...

... is it just standard that the mic input on the HV30 or most camcorders that the input is un-balanced. I'm looking at page 103 in the Canon manual in the spec for Mic "3.5mm stereo minijack, -57dBV (with 600 ohm microphone) 5 kohms or more". I could be so new to this that the answer is right there and I just don't know it.
Unless the mic connector is a 3-pin XLR, it is unbalanced. And from your AT stereo mic you realize that even a 3-pin XLR does not mean balanced, either in rare cases.

Camera manuals sure don't help a whole lot, it seems.
You have to know how to read them. Or perhaps you need to understand how balanced and unbalanced work. The simplest rule is that it takes TWO wires/pins for a balanced signal (PLUS the ground), where an unbalanced signal takes only ONE wire/pin. If you have a 3-terminal mini-phone connector, and it has stereo on it, there is no way in our known universe to get balanced out of that. You need 5 terminals/wires/pins to get stereo balanced (2 channels x 2 wires each) + ground. The newer (current) version of that AT stereo microphone uses a 5-pin XLR connector so that it has Left Balanced (2 pins), Right Balanced (2 more pins) plus ground (the 5th pin).

I will check out page 9 of the FP33 manual. Not certain if that is a dip switch setting or if it involves soldiering something. But I'll look into that today. It does appear to require minor surgery on the internal PC board. If you aren't up to doing that yourself, it should be an "outpatient procedure" that could be done by anyone handy with a soldering iron.

As far as using AC power, I use that exclusively if I know I'm going to conduct a stationary interview. I have not had any problem (i don't think, but then again, want to go from aceptable audo to a least good audio).

Is the noise issue something that occurs mostly when a camcorder is connected to mixer? And I'm assuming this is not an issue with prosumer units that have balanced input (xlr) Or just use the camera in battery mode.
I believe as long as you are operating the mixer on internal batteries, you won't run into the noise problem. The noise comes from ground loops when connected to other power-mains powered equipment.

(Aside) Personal to Richard C, are you the same Richard Crowley I went to college with in Memphis in the 60's by any chance? We were both into stills and 16mm film then...
Nope. I was in college in the 60's, but I've never been to Tennessee. However I have ancestors (and likely extended relatives) in Tennessee and Texas, so they could be related.

"I believe as long as you are operating the mixer on internal batteries, you won't run into the noise problem. The noise comes from ground loops when connected to other power-mains powered equipment.
+1
Additionally, ground-loops can usually be avoided by having the interconnected audio/video gear plugged into the same circuit. Field production audio gear draws very little power so tripping a breaker should not be problem... Obviously, lights should be distributed on separate circuits accordingly.

Additionally, ground-loops can usually be avoided by having the interconnected audio/video gear plugged into the same circuit. Field production audio gear draws very little power so tripping a breaker should not be problem...
Yes, that is correct in traditional cases. But I've encountered too much modern equipment that uses SMPS (switch-mode power supplies) "line lumps" that generate their own "ground loop". So having them even plugged into the same power strip doesn't help. Alas the only solution is battery power or an audio isolation transformer. Even Radio Shack sells a little in-line stereo iso transformer for use with laptops because this is such a widespread problem.

...Tape out to camera is the way to go then. Can I ask a you, is it just standard that the mic input on the HV30 or most camcorders that the input is un-balanced. I'm looking at page 103 in the Canon manual in the spec for Mic "3.5mm stereo minijack, -57dBV (with 600 ohm microphone) 5 kohms or more". I could be so new to this that the answer is right there and I just don't know it. ...You could also set the main outputs to mic level using the switches on their panel and use this XLR to stereo mini Y cable DV Cam Stereo Input Cable (REM CAMCXY) | Trew Audio (http://www.trewaudio.com/store/DV-Cam-Stereo-Input-Cable-REM-CAMCXY.html) to connect to the camera. I have one of those that I've used with my SD442 set to output at mic level and it works like a champ.

Wow! That adapter cable from Trew certainly comes at a premium price! I think I could make 3 or 4 of them for that price. And not even gold-plated! :-)

For me, the way I would feed the camera is to feed out of the XLR outputs on the Shure Mixer, into an XLR adapter mounted on the camera. See the Beachtek or Juice Links for examples. This gives you multiple set up capability. At the mixer you can mix three inputs to two channels out. Most of the time in dialogue, you mix down to a mono signal so you only have to feed one XLR cable out to the camera.

Wow! That adapter cable from Trew certainly comes at a premium price! I think I could make 3 or 4 of them for that price. And not even gold-plated! :-)Yep, it is a little pricey, but the build quality is first rate. For those who are not handy with a soldering iron it may be worth it. And the 3.5mm plug is gold plated <grin> It is one of the few off-the-shelf solutions on the market that actually is wired properly, including the capacitors to block plug-in power voltage.

Seems to me the Juicelink alone will do the trick nicely.

The XLR adapter cable on the FP33 may still be preferable to the modification required to change the Tape Outs to mic level:
From page 9:
Decreasing Tape Out Level to Mic Level
1. Locate R1112 and X511 (the top side of the bottom PC board, by the L Out XLR connector).
2. Locate R1114 and X510 (the bottom side of the bottom PC board, by the Tape Out jack).
3. Remove R1112 and R1114. 4. Solder a jumper through the holes at X511.
5. Solder a jumper through the holes at X510.

Seems to me the Juicelink alone will do the trick nicely.
Doesn't seem that way to me. And that wasn't the question, either.

Doesn't seem that way to me. And that wasn't the question, either.

The Juicedlink has come up a couple times as a solution to OP problem which is connecting a Stereo XLR mic to an HV30. From another thread, we know that the FP33 was being explored as a purchase or barter. Injecting a Juicedlink or Beachtek as an alternative solution is certainly in bounds. Especially in context of the FP33 requiring an expensive cable or soldering skills to make his own cable or modifying the circuit board of the FP33.

I believe others share my opinion that the Shure mixer is in a different class than anything made by Juiced Link. A Juiced Link product is NOT the equivalent of anything from Shure.

Not knowing how to solder is like not knowing how to put gas in your car. You can survive, but only at the mercy of others. And people who don't do critical comparison shopping are condemned to buy expensive cables. Sorry. Trew is a great company, but addition of a couple of 50-cent capacitors is not excuse to jack up the price of a simple cable by $30-40. You can have a CUSTOM cable built by Redco that does exactly the same thing for less than 1/3 the price Trew is asking. And you can make your own for 1/4 or 1/5 that price.

http://www.redco.com/shopexd.asp?ycable=yes&id=899

People who learn at least enough to cook for themselves save tons of money over those who are dependent on McDonalds, et.al.

Learning to cook for yourself is pretty harmless. Learning to solder on an FP33 isn't a good idea and I wouldn't ever recommend soldering a PC board without knowing the skill of the person. Also, modifying the FP33 affects the OP using it for VO to a Macbook pro
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/all-things-audio/512858-mixer-output-mac.html#post1768958

Then there's ergonomics, the Juicedlink and Beachtek devices are built to sandwich between camcorder and tripod.

Thanks Guys.

Les, I think for VO, I'd go for the mic>M-Audio Fastrack>Mac laptop. Or at least test this to see if it is OK for my use.

All- I am capable of doing some minor soldering surgery, however in this case I haven't yet done the deal to own the mixer, so I wouldn't want to alter the Tape Out>Mic level just yet. I wish that they made this a switchable option so you could reset back to default if needed. And yes, using the less clunky mini-mini from the tape out would be nice.

That cable from Trew seems to be a reasonable way to go with out altering the mixer, but as Richard pointed out, the $73.00US is a bit un-reasonable, especially since Santa brought less coal in the stocking this year than in previous years.

I gave at Redco a call and discussed the Y-cable option. They can put together a cable for about $30.00, but it would not have the DC voltage blocking capacitor. Apparently that is in case of an overload, but they claim they have not heard of any problems by not using the DC voltage blocking capacitor.

As far as the ground loop noise, good to know that that may only be a problem if both the camera AND the mixer are connected to the power bricks. Though the mixer has a DC in, I don't have the proper brick, so it would be running on the two 9 volts, and I'd pack lots of spares (I've read enough for three changes during the coarse of a days shoot/recording.)

Best to all.

Jonathan

and one of these will convert a stereo tape output to mic level : ART Pro Audio (http://artproaudio.com/artcessories/di_boxes/product/av_direct/)
it will also allow you to ground lift to remove hum if required!

...Les, I think for VO, I'd go for the mic>M-Audio Fastrack>Mac laptop. Or at least test this to see if it is OK for my use.....

Yup... understood. I like the cable approach too. With it you can get both mic and line level mini outputs from your FP33 without mods, just cables. You'll then have lots of flexibility for the future when you want to rig something else. A right angle plug on the mini end of your custom cable will help a little with strain on your camera's mic socket as long as the camera has clearance for the plug.

I gave at Redco a call and discussed the Y-cable option. They can put together a cable for about $30.00, but it would not have the DC voltage blocking capacitor. Apparently that is in case of an overload, but they claim they have not heard of any problems by not using the DC voltage blocking capacitor.

Note that the Panasonic HV30 does not provide "plug-in power", so the blocking capacitors are not needed in this application.

You could also do a quick-n-dirty by getting the attenuator cable from Radio Shack. It would knock the FP33 line-level down to mic-level for the camera. However, it is only mono, so only good for one channel (likely the left channel).
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103841

For that matter, you could make (or have Redco make) an attenuating stereo 3.5mm cable. The "attenuator" consists of a pair of 25-cent resistors. The only issue being finding some place in the connector shell with enough space for the resistors. You could do it with conventional 3.5mm connectors by using 1/10th watt resistors, and putting two of them at each end.

"The only issue being finding some place in the connector shell with enough space for the resistor"
-- Yes indeed. I usually use Canare F-11 or F-12 or other large barrel 3.5mm plug or jack for making attenuating cables. Makes it a lot easier to add resistors and caps.
Canare F-11 & F-12 Mini Phone Connectors at Markertek.com (http://www.markertek.com/Connectors-Adapters/Audio-Connectors/3-5-2-5mm-Mini-Connectors/Canare-Corporation-Of-America/F-11.xhtml)