Hi all... I'm after some advice on a second camera!

My current kit includes a Canon XA10, HF-G10 and a 550D. However I'm looking for a more professional solution with interchangeable lenses and a larger sensor. Most of my work is event videography (sports events, weddings, etc). However I also shoot the occasional short film.

Currently I'm looking at the Sony NEX-EA50. Any thoughts? I'm also after a cheap B camera that will match it in terms of image.

Does anyone have any other suggestions? My budget is approx $5k USD, I could possibly stretch to 6k if needed.

Any advice/tips/info much appreciated! Thanks :)

Hi Jody

I have just ordered my first EA-50 and then once I wean myself off my current Panasonics I will get a second one... I never see the point of people always going for a "cheaper B Cam" ..I have always duplicated my A and B Cams ..you have matching cameras, IQ will be the same so surely that's much more sensible way of doing things instead of fighting to match lower image quality and different colour matching. Surely if you are doing a two camera shoot it makes really good sense to use the same cameras and not shoot B-Cam footage with a "cheapie"

Chris

For a versatile, affordable S35mm camera at the moment, I think it's pretty hard to look past the Sony FS100 and the Canon C100 - they both offer a hell of a lot of image for the money.

Used, you can pick up an FS100 for a little over $3k at the moment.

For a versatile, affordable S35mm camera at the moment, I think it's pretty hard to look past the Sony FS100 and the Canon C100 - they both offer a hell of a lot of image for the money.

Used, you can pick up an FS100 for a little over $3k at the moment.


Thanks for the tips guys.

I was thinking of getting an FS100 but I shoot a lot of sports events that require me to run around with the camera. The FS100 doesn't look like it would be too easy to hold.. Unless there are some support rigs I haven't seen?

The EA50 is quite light, and the shoulder extension would be handy.

Jody,

For sports and events, is shallow depth of field and large sensors the best thing?

It might be worth looking at a more traditional 1/3" chip camcorder with a deeper depth of field and good zoom lenses - I would consider the Panasonic AC130/160 or JVC HM600/650. At the same level of cameras, the Sony NX5 is getting a bit long in the tooth now, and the Canon XF300 costs quite a bit more.

A good, long lens like these (approx 29mm wide up to 600+mm zoomed in) is great for event work, removing the need to swap lenses round and miss things, or shell out $1000s on high quality telephoto lenses. You still have the 550d for beauty shots with shallow DOF for weddings etc.

I know the Panasonic has some alleged problems with auto-focus, and I don't know if the JVC suffers from that yet (the JVC does have face tracking, apparently). But those sort of cams work best in manual anyway. Add in NDs that go up to 1/64, and you have very versitile cameras for all light. The JVC is supposed to be real good in lower light too - not DSLR-good, but good for a traditional camera.

The JVC shoots up to 1080 50i, the Panasonic shoots up to 1080 50p.

Hi Mike

The AF on the 130/160 is definately not good for sports so unless one is prepared to go manual (a tough call for sports) The AF on the 160 is painfully slow and it loses the plot sometimes especially with subject coming towards the camera. The AF on the JVC is supposedly pretty much OK but sadly has no 60P at all.

Guys are getting good results however on the AC90..it only has 1/4.7 chips but they are backlit and the gain is squeaky clean and it's an under $2K camera!!

I only do weddings and real estate so the EA-50 will work fine for me but fast action sports might be, as you say quite tough on the AF..however if you have good light then you can keep the iris around F6.8 and still get a reasonable DOF that's controllable. Then again if you are filming indoor sports the shallow DOF will be an issue and also fast pans need to be avoided to avoid skew which will be worse with a big sensor.

Chris

I read that the rolling shutter on the nex ea50 is quite bad so it's not that good for fast pans which can be an issue when covering sports.

Chris,

I'm not sure I would trust any camera to do good auto focus during sports, especially faster-moving ball games or the like. It should be possible to get the camera set to a sweet spot where there's not too much manual focusing to do.

I'm not convinced by the Sony NEX-EA50, without any NDs built in and a slow-ish stock lens... and the skew from the CMOS sensor.

I was on the cusp of ordering an AC90, but heck, I am fed up screwing in ND filters then taking them off again if a cloud goes in front of the sun, only to have to screw them on again a minute later. Variable NDs tend not to start at "0", so they don't help. Adjusting shutter speed to cope with brighter conditions will lead to choppy/strobe-effect footage. I would gladly pay a few hundred extra for an AC90 with proper switchable NDs, up to 1/64.

I've seen clips from the AC90 in low light where any bright lights (spotlights, car headlights etc.) turn into a serious starburst effect, which isn't good. All lower-end cameras will have this to some degree, but the ones from the AC90 really look like something from a $200 cheap camera. Which is worrying to me, when I shoot trains and even the steamers have headlights, you see a massive bright "X" coming towards you!

It does depend what you're shooting... there is no perfect camera!

Thanks guys.

You've given me a lot to think about. I do think a camera like the EA50 would be perfect for a lot of the work I do. Although all the talk about excessive rolling shutter is worrying.

I do have the XA10 as a backup if I need to capture fast-paced sports events so that's a bonus.

I have looked at cameras with smaller sensors like the XF100 but I'd really like more control over the DoF for when I shoot weddings, and I'd prefer not to use my 550D.

Might keep researching.. It's a tough call.

Thanks again

Hi Mike

Yep, I certainly agree about the focus side although so far the AC-90 looks quite good. Funny, the main reason I ditched the AC-130 apart from the AF was the fact that it DID have switchable ND filters...it had precious little iris range in auto and no shutter change so in that case I had the issue with having to rush over and change ND switches half way thru a wedding cos the cloud pattern had changed (and the manual switch also causes a nice flash on the footage too!!!) I run around receptions with ants in my pants and one thing I do need is auto level control of the XLR audio and the AC-90 seems to be the only camera that doesn't have it!!

Jody? My first EA-50 is already on it's way to me so I will post my likes/dislikes on the EA-50 forum once I have taken it to a wedding but sadly I can't help you with sports. What sort of sport action are you looking at doing mainly and will this be just occasionally ?

As Mike says there is no perfect camera so the first thing you need to realise is that you WILL need to compromise so look at them all and see which fits your needs the best. It's often like buying a car ..it's more a personal choice and to see what features you have to have and which you can live without or work around.

Chris

Jody? My first EA-50 is already on it's way to me so I will post my likes/dislikes on the EA-50 forum once I have taken it to a wedding but sadly I can't help you with sports. What sort of sport action are you looking at doing mainly and will this be just occasionally ?

As Mike says there is no perfect camera so the first thing you need to realise is that you WILL need to compromise so look at them all and see which fits your needs the best. It's often like buying a car ..it's more a personal choice and to see what features you have to have and which you can live without or work around.

Chris

Yeah sports events are occasional. I normally shoot marathons and running races.

I'm tempted to get something like the Canon XF100 which would go nicely with my XA10, then get something like the Sony VG900 for creative work that requires more control over the DoF. But I'm waiting to read a bit more about the VG900. Any thoughts on the XF100?

Does anyone have any other suggestions? My budget is approx $5k USD, I could possibly stretch to 6k if needed.

Any advice/tips/info much appreciated! Thanks :)

If you can stretch it to 6.5K I recommend the C100. Otherwise, the FS100 over the EA50. Both these are light cameras like DSLRs, and have excellent battery life with light batteries - you won't have problems rigging either for any kind of work.

For the fastest run and gun, go for C100. It will match your 550D. I use a C300 mixed with Canon DSLRs. If your workflow isn't hectic enough to warrant the C100, I must confess my favorite camera sub-$10k is the FS100.

Hope this helps.

Hmm I'm still struggling a bit with this decision.

I'd get myself a PMW-100 or a Canon XF300 in a second because as I said, I mostly shoot events. But there are occasions where having a shallow DoF would be really good.

I'm wondering if I should just increase my budget a bit more and get a decent ENG/event camera and something with a larger sensor for creative work. I guess no camera can do both.

What's everyones thoughts on the Canon XF100 and 300 and the Sony PMW-100 and 200?

Hmm I'm still struggling a bit with this decision.

I'd get myself a PMW-100 or a Canon XF300 in a second because as I said, I mostly shoot events. But there are occasions where having a shallow DoF would be really good.

I'm wondering if I should just increase my budget a bit more and get a decent ENG/event camera and something with a larger sensor for creative work. I guess no camera can do both.

What's everyones thoughts on the Canon XF100 and 300 and the Sony PMW-100 and 200?

For the price of a C300 you could get a C100 and a PMW-200. That sounds like a great plan to me. If you shoot sports mostly in good lighting, the PMW 160 has a better zoom range than the 200. Also look at a JVC HM600, which has a 23x zoom and excellent low light capability.

You can always get an ENG type camera and get a cheaper DSLR for tight DoF shots.

BTW, I use my FS100 with the stock 18-200 lens for shooting lacrosse games. I keep it on auto focus, and the lens does a very good job of keeping in focus throughout the game. My client loves the video, even going as far as asking what camera I used. I assume the EA50 will have the same ability.

I've kind of ditched the idea of getting a large sensor camera and using it for everything. I'm now looking at a decent ENG camera, then buying something like a VG900 later to use for short films.

So, I've narrowed it down to:

Canon XF300.
Apparently has fantastic image quality. Only downside is no 1080p60, and I'm betting Canon are due to release a new model soon which puts me off. The XF100 is tempting too but worried that the single 1/3 sensor won't cut it.

Sony PMW-160/200.
Again no 1080p60, but switchable PAL/NTSC is a bonus. Expensive sxs media puts me off though. But i've heard the image stabilisation is great. Not sure about the image quality.

JVC HM600.
Apparently very good in low light, but no 4:2:2 50mbit recording. Unsure how image quality, auto focus and stabilisation stacks up.

Panasonic AC160.
Looks close to perfect, 1080p60 is a huge plus... except for reports of terrible auto focus which I have found extremely handy on my XA10 when shooting fast-paced events. And no 4:2:2 50mbit again.

Anyone have any thoughts?
Thanks again

Hi Jody

I had two Panasonic AC-130's and I ditched them after only 3 months..terrible AF and the audio XLR's gave much poorer results than expected. I also never liked the fact that in auto the iris had such a limited range ..it calls for a manual ND change even if a cloud goes over and switching the ND causes a flash on the footage. Even in full manual the ND changes are not seamless at all. If you shoot full manual however they are good value and half the price of the Canon.

I'm switching to the new Sony NEX EA-50 it ticks all my boxes and is within my budget too!!

Chris

Hi Jody

I had two Panasonic AC-130's and I ditched them after only 3 months..terrible AF and the audio XLR's gave much poorer results than expected. I also never liked the fact that in auto the iris had such a limited range ..it calls for a manual ND change even if a cloud goes over and switching the ND causes a flash on the footage. Even in full manual the ND changes are not seamless at all. If you shoot full manual however they are good value and half the price of the Canon.

I'm switching to the new Sony NEX EA-50 it ticks all my boxes and is within my budget too!!

Chris

Thanks for the info. Might look a bit more into the XF300/HM600 then..

The EA50 does look great, I'm just worried about the shallow DoF making difficult to quickly obtain focus when I'm running around shooting various events. It does look like the perfect wedding/short film camera though.

Hi Jody

I guess I'll find out when mine arrives any day now but bear in mind that outdoors or in good light and using the stock zoom which only opens to F3.5 you still have a fair amount of DOF to play with....normal bright light shots would be around the F6.8 mark and that gives you plenty of area in focus...even in low light at F4 the example video in the EA-50 forum the background was still in focus. One would start getting very shallow DOF once you pop on a very fast lens that's wide open ... I really don't think it will be an issue.

My main reason for the EA-50 was the form factor though! I was brought up on shoulder mount cameras and do a lot of handheld so forms like the new JVC or Panny mean that I have to try and hold the camera out in front of me or build a rig for it....as the 50 pad actually slides in you get the best of both worlds.

The Canon is supposed to be very good but I don't like the form factor again or the inflated price compared to the HM650 ...Sadly the JVC has no 1080 50p .... I do like the idea of being able to change to a fast lens when I have a low light issue too!!

Hope you find exactly what you want....a good idea on an unfamiliar cam is to also download the manual..it tells a lot ...I nearly grabbed a Panasonic AC-90 until I found out it has very poor XLR control and nobody mentioned it until I found out details in the manual.

Chris

Chris,

I'm wondering how you're going to find no ND at all for filming? The built-in NDs of the Panasonic HMCs certainly has its place in your sort of work. I never really fell in love with variable NDs either, I always overshot the "min" setting and crazy things would happen to the picture. My fault I'm sure, but it never felt right.

Also, the variable NDs I've tried didn't have a "0" setting, so if it got dark you had to struggle to unscrew the filter...

I realise that everyone is different, but for run & gun I view manual NDs as essential, I was forever screwing manual ones on or off on my Sony NX70 to try to compensate for changing light without going to crazy shutter speeds.

My scenario, set up on a hillside waiting for Santa's steam train to appear:
- Set up camera
- Sun comes out
- Take off lens hood
- Unscrew UV filter
- Screw on ND2 filter
- Replace lens hood
- Sun goes behind clouds
- Reduce shutter speed
- Still too dark
- Try to guess if sun will stay behind cloud for long or will come back soon
- Remove lens hood
...etc.

Whereas manual NDs - clunk, and you're set. Clearly you have to compromise if the lighting conditions change during the shoot. But you'll hopefully have a much closer overall good exposure if you can quickly adjust settings.

e.g., for Jody:

- Shot is nicely exposed for (say) the soccer pitch or ice rink
- Something really interesting happens in the crowd, or elsewhere
- Flick off NDs and re-expose and zoom quickly with 23x zoom

Fiddling with screw-on or fader NDs and having to use a DSLR-style zoom lens (which will probably not be long enough) could miss the moment.

OK, it's not an everyday occurrence maybe, but it might happen.

Changing lenses is not desirable during action (unless you have multiple cameras), so a good integrated lens like the AC130/160, Canon XF300 or JVC HM600 may not be perfect for 100% of circumstances, but it should be perfect for most and adequate for others.


My next camera has manual NDs, three rings on the lens for focus, zoom, iris (including a non-servo zoom) and ND up to 1/64, making outdoor shooting a lot less frustrating. I can sacrifice not having 1080 50p because none of the destinations for my video actually are 50p!

Hi Mike

I'll let you know next week!! My Pannys have a built in variable ND that works with the iris as 1/4" chips lose resolution after about F4.... Shooting outdoor weddings with the Pannys in manual the auto setting pushes the shutter to 1/2000th and the iris/ND combo to between F8 and F11 (it's not really F11 but closer to F4 +1/64th ND) I have never had an issue with shutter speed at outdoor weddings at all but using a variable ND might be an option if it's needed. So far results from other users say there is no issue with no ND's but without testing it myself I won't know if I need one or not.

I'll get my wife to overshoot an outdoor wedding next Saturday (I'll use both Pannys and she can man the EA-50) and I'll post the results on the Sony forum. You, of course could be right or you might be wrong...we shall see after my 12th January wedding when I can comment accurately on what occurred.

Surely Sony wouldn't ship out a camera that cannot shoot in bright light?? Maybe it has it's own variable auto ND inside ...I don't think anyone knows and I'm purely speculating until I actually use it on a bright sunny day. I haven't yet seen any posts in the Sony Forum about ND's as yet so I'll wait and see after a practical shoot....playing with cameras in the back yard tells us very little sadly!

Chris

Hi Mike
Surely Sony wouldn't ship out a camera that cannot shoot in bright light?? Maybe it has it's own variable auto ND inside ...I don't think anyone knows and I'm purely speculating until I actually use it on a bright sunny day. I haven't yet seen any posts in the Sony Forum about ND's as yet so I'll wait and see after a practical shoot....playing with cameras in the back yard tells us very little sadly!

Chris

Time will tell, Chris - good luck!

Sony did this with the NX70. Despite speculation on this forum, there simply was no ND in it. No auto ND, nothing. Nada. Nowt. Sony confirmed this, and advised using screw-on NDs. Not in the specs, not according to Sony, and not visible, and not apparent in the picture. (OK, I'll stop now.)

If it got bright, the iris would go right to f9 without any sign of ND kicking in, and be overblown. Putting it in auto would keep the iris in the middle range (approx f4) and up the shutter speed to keep exposure good. This would of course result in shutter speeds of 1/1000 and could look weird at times.

We shall see. Sony don't tend to release total junk, so we can have hope!

Surely Sony wouldn't ship out a camera that cannot shoot in bright light?? Maybe it has it's own variable auto ND inside

If you are referring to the nex ea50, no it has no build in ND's, it's comparable with a dslr and if you have experience shooting with one you know what you are getting into :)

I have shot several weddings now with my sony cx730 that don't have a build in nd either and they use the shutter to compensate when shooting outside, I did shoot a outdoor ceremony a while ago when it was clouded and the sun kept appearing, so it was either glaring sun or shade all the time and I just let the Sony do it's thing. In the end result on dvd and blu-ray the client doesn't notice the side effects of those high shutterspeeds when the sun appears, to a untrained eye it all looks beautiful. So eventhough I prefer shooting with ND's it's perfectly possible to shoot without and still deliver a video your client will like.

Hi Guys

Fair enough comments. On my Panny's I put them into manual purely so I can lock AF once the bride is in position but I leave the iris in auto unless there is a reason not to..On the Panny's in manual the shutter locks at 1/50th and of course you can run out of iris and yes the image blows out. I let autoiris decide the shutter and aperture and then tweak exposure as needed so 99% of my outdoor ceremonies are shot at 1/2000th shutter and iris to suit. I have never seen any weird results as fast action isn't the order of the day at all and brides have always been pleased with the results. I am figuring that the Sony will be much the same so a high shutter speed shouldn't cause any problems again at an almost static wedding ceremony. The only time movement starts to happen is when they start dancing and then you are indoors, at night and the shutter is back to 1/50th.

However I can see where there would be a problem with high speed sports and then you have no option but to use an ND filter.

Time will tell and results to help/deter prospective owners will be forthcoming

Chris

Well today is the day I make my purchase, as I now have the money ready.

And I still haven't decided! =/

I'm tossing up between the JV HM600 and Sony PMW-200. Considering the $2-3k price difference, what would you guys choose? Keeping in mind I mainly shoot corporate promos, sports events and the occasional wedding/short film.

The 1/2 inch sensors on the Sony are really drawing me to that.. but it's a lot more expensive.

The PMW 200 is in a different league, with genlock and is more geared towards broadcast. If your work is never going to be broadcast, you don't need it.

You could buy the JVC and a DSLR (for those shallow DOF shots) for the price of a PMW 200.

The PMW 200 is in a different league, with genlock and is more geared towards broadcast. If your work is never going to be broadcast, you don't need it.

You could buy the JVC and a DSLR (for those shallow DOF shots) for the price of a PMW 200.

Yeah I'm thinking the JVC HM600 and a Sony VG30 would be a good way to go.

Just a bit worried about being an "early adopter" with the JVC... there isn't a great deal of info on the internet about it yet. Would love to hear from anyone that has used one.