I just wanted to give a shoutout to Rob and Vanessa who did a 3 day Wedding Cinematography course using DSLR's. I've gone through some of the videos, and I must say, these guys ROCK!! They go through gear selection, lenses, and the best part is, they actually show how they capture during a live wedding event! There's also post production editing lessons that I havent quite gotten to yet.

I watched it too, and did enjoy seeing how he did things.

Shame we NEVER EVER get a first look. It just doesn't happen here and is considered the height of 'bad luck'.

Now if I could only figure out how to get brides around here to spend as much as he seems to be getting for the job..... maybe I'd take a few more crew too :)

< sigh >

Yep - watching it now. Very interesting indeed. He's got a heap of energy hasn't he?

I'm extracting all sorts of good hints, but as a solo video shooter, I am starting to feel really really sorry for DSLR shooters. So much to think about with multiple cameras, multiple lense, assistants and crew, sliders, audio... man you guys make a lot of work for yourselves...

Well I've just watched the trailer and might sign up for it as I'm always looking at ways to raise my game (especially now I've recently acquired my 5D) but to claim the average is about £2,500 and potentially raise it to about £5,500 per wedding is a little off IMO - especially in the UK and in the current climate!

Their stuff looks lovely but how achievable is a lot of it? - I did 2 weddings last week where there was like an hour between the ceremony ending and the wedding breakfast - and the photog hogged all that!, plus the appalling weather confined the entire wedding indoors - as a solo shooter I simply don't have time to set up shots like like - how I would love to though! - I have a Glidetrack and a Merlin Stedicam that hardly see the light of day as there simply is time to set them up! they get used for smaller projects, not weddings

I suppose I'd rather keep my prices keen and work more, than hire people, buy more kit, be more elaborate and bag fewer weddings - IMO people over here are wanting to pay less, not more.

I've been watching this over the last few days and am very pleased with what I've seen so far. This guy seems to know his stuff. I've picked up one awesome marketing tool already and really like his approach. Plus he's shooting with 5D mkIIs which means that a lot of his struggle in low light doesn't apply to me :) Very enjoyable so far. Solo shooters should understand that help is out there and can seriously raise your game and allow you to make better films, which can allow you to make more money, etc. Hire editors as well. TV stations are laying off editors left and right. They can be trained to do this, and they welcome the work with enthusiasm. Price is almost always negotiable. Do it!
Bill

Their stuff looks lovely but how achievable is a lot of it?

I think it's very market dependant.

He's obviously a creative genius with bundles of energy - who, after starting in the wedding video industry, very quickly discovered that most weddings are actually quite tedious and mundane. Leveraging the fact that most Americans (and this is a HUGE generalisation) tend to be a little more extroverted, he’s targeted really high-end clientele who are happy to spend time on their wedding day ‘re-creating’ (read FAKING) a lot of scenes to produce very cinematic films with a brilliantly strong story.

This simply wouldn’t work in my market in New Zealand for a lot of reasons. The average bride here is a little more chilled out and less willing to ‘reveal her soul to the world’ to create something on this level. Many would not have the budget for anything like a US$9500 video – that would be the average budget of an entire wedding here! If you attempted to ask a groom to remove and button up his waist-coast 3 times just so you could have 3 different angles he would tell you to **** off. We’re just not that into ourselves. (There is no New Zealand equivalent to Jerry Springer on TV)

I can imagine most weddings in the UK being similar. Not great weather, brides who are a little more reserved with their emotions, tighter budgets etc.

Don’t get me wrong – he’s got some fantastic ideas and I’m still loving his work and picking up some great tips, but I’m watching the mock ‘first-look’ lessons he’s going through now with my jaw wide open thinking... “Are you freaking kidding me? Go shoot a movie or something and let these people just get married already!”

Well I've just watched the trailer and might sign up for it as I'm always looking at ways to raise my game (especially now I've recently acquired my 5D) but to claim the average is about £2,500 and potentially raise it to about £5,500 per wedding is a little off IMO - especially in the UK and in the current climate!

There aren't many people in Yorkshire willing to pay this for a wedding film. The most I've managed in the last couple of years was £1850 but those inquiries have mostly dried up now most seem to be looking for a LOT cheaper.

Their stuff looks lovely but how achievable is a lot of it?

It's very achievable in the right conditions, which include cooperative wedding party members, sufficient space (you can't get the maid-of-honour or bride to do the writing/reading in a 12x10 room where 8 other people are also getting ready!) and clear speakers with something to say in the speeches. Not the standard Google stuff (I'm sure we've all heard over and over). We also tend to get the same old vows & 1 corinthians 13 instead of the personal vows they seem to get on Rob's films.

Vicars speaking too quickly (and over the top of B&G) during vows and rings makes it really hard to separate that audio and of course kids crying in the background never helps either!

Actually, the more expensive weddings turned out to be both easier to shoot and to edit. Things flowed better, better material to use, more time & space when filming etc. Cheap weddings are totally different. Different venues, different people, different expectations and totally different budgets!

So, put us in the weddings that Rob is doing, absolutely achievable. Put Rob at a wedding where people are getting ready in tiny back street houses, married in a registry office and then on to a pub in cold rainy weather and I think you'll find Rob struggles too.

That's why he needs to stay above a certain price point, and there are too few of those price point weddings around here to make a living out of. At least in today's climate.

Hi Dave

Much the same my end too. It's only practical rather than achievable if the market supports it. I have read on this very forum about videographers arriving at receptions and the car park is a mass of Ferrari's and Lamborginis... exclusive money-is-no-object weddings ... In real life I'm sure that really does happen in Hollywood and Daddy just shells out unlimited finance.
Sheesh, it's hard enough to convince the bride to have the prep video done and she is stalling cos her budget for video was only $1000!!

I'm sure that even in Perth the super rich mining magnates daughters have a wedding in that calibre but snaring one or two a year isn't going to pay the bills throughout the year so we end up doing much the same as you.

Despite the beautiful creativity the bottom line still remains that we are running a business and we need to make a profit and for me that means shooting solo with an average package cost of around $1500 which certainly doesn't allow any profit if we get into multiple shooters and weeks of edit time.

Chris

You guys seem to be very convinced of your limitations. I'm not so sure. If your work is compelling enough I don't think there's as much limitation as you think.
Bill

Hi Bill

Absolutely not the case at all. It's simply a market limitation and we have a fairly booming enconomy compared to some places. Sure, there are one or two brides a year who have money to burn but most are currently pretty careful with the pennies. Anyone that wouldn't want to shoot and wedding for $10K would be a total idiot but if the market isn't there it simply cannot be created. There are videographers who work in rural communities with lower populations and income potential than the big cities.

Much the same as you wouldn't setup a franchise in a tiny rural low income town with Rolls Royce ... sure, the town may have a few rich dudes who might buy your cars but the general population could never afford it so it would be a poor marketing decision.

Chris

Like I said. You sound pretty convinced. So therefore it will be so for you. I have experienced something different.
Bill

Hi Bill

My own abilities, gear and creativeness.. No .. I have the skills plus the availabilty of two good 2nd shooters and a 4 cam setup so doing a high end wedding from my side is quite feasible. However my current market situation, yes I am convinced that it's not able to sustain a steady flow of $10K wedding packages so I have no option but to do a whole bunch of lower wedding packages to make a living.

Would I like to be able to do just 10 x $10K weddings a year?....right on...that would be absolutely perfect BUT it ain't gonna happen here...maybe in the USA or Canada but not in my market. I have to make a living so I have to settle for what the market wants ... I'd like to wave a magic wand and give all my brides a 100K budget but $15K for the entire wedding is closer to what they can afford. Even photogs here have started to charge less than 10 years ago ...Around 2000 it was quite typical for a photog to charge $4K for a shoot only nowdays they charge just 25% of that ..or they don't make a living.

If you have a magic idea that would trawl in the big spenders then I'm all ears!!! I would much rather work my butt off for $5K rather than for $2K ...then again, who wouldn't??

Our East Coast and the big cities like Sydney are different...high end there is a lot more realistic!

Chris

I have absolutely no doubt that your skills and experience are such that you could produce anything you like. I also imagine that Perth is larger than Columbia SC usa... pm me if you'd like to talk about it.
Bill

Yep - watching it now. Very interesting indeed. He's got a heap of energy hasn't he?

Where is this video everyone's talking about? Or link? Would love to see.

It's a 3-day course... check out some previews here:

Wedding Cinematography with Rob and Vanessa | creativeLIVE (http://www.creativelive.com/courses/wedding-cinematography-rob-and-vanessa)

You guys seem to be very convinced of your limitations. I'm not so sure. If your work is compelling enough I don't think there's as much limitation as you think.
Bill

Hi Bill,

The limitations are more in what people are willing and able to pay within your market region. There are several higher priced video companies just not getting the work right now, and looking at the inquiries I'm seeing through a planner, average wedding budgets are down to around 30%-40% of what they were a couple of years ago.

There are some venues that were doing 100+ weddings a year really struggling and one admitted to me they only had 15 weddings booked so far this year.

With this in mind, we can all tell ourselves how wonderful we are & how much our work is worth etc until we are blue in the face. We can watch Rob strut his stuff for three days of workshop and come away feeling refreshed and empowered. But, if there is a general lack of clients willing to spend the money we're all just kidding ourselves.

Now, if the area you are in still has plenty of brides willing to pay higher prices, then I feel happy for you, but it's just not like that everywhere. :(

Ok. Well. Alright. Like I said. Very convinced.

Ok. Well. Alright. Like I said. Very convinced.

Forgive me but that seems really condescending. You're making out you know better, half way around the world. Please, feel free, put us right with specifics, please, I'm looking forward to it!

Ok. Well. Alright. Like I said. Very convinced.

Please tell us your secret to 30 annual $10,000 weddings booked and signed good sir! :)

Please tell us your secret to 30 annual $10,000 weddings booked and signed good sir! :)

And that's the point, Bill isn't getting 30x$10K weddings and according to his site his 'average' total spend is less than 30% of that (pretty 'rounded' numbers there Bill), though it's not clear on how many weddings.

Also note Bill's wife is a photographer (just like Rob & Vanessa) which itself gives ideal opportunities for Bill to piggy back on to for lead generation, so every inquiry she gets is an opportunity for introducing the concept of video. Since photography is near the top of most Bride's 'essentials' it's a step in the door fairly early on in the planning.

We've done the Photo & Video combined packages here too, and yes it generated more work, but again, it's generally people looking for a combined packages that were 'cheaper' than the two halves put together, rather than a higher quality product overall.

It's interesting that I just watched a BBC short on why 2013 is going to be a 'bad year' for weddings (people think '13' is unlucky) and that so many venues / suppliers are having to discount significantly to keep business flowing. Any of this sounding familiar?

So against this backdrop, is this really the right time to be putting prices "up" ?

I don't think I ever indicated that I was making anywhere near 10k but I certainly have gone farther than I ever thought I could in my market. I was basing my statements on Chris Harding's number of $1500. As long as I was blaming my issues on my market, I got nowhere. As soon as I changed my self I'm headed where I want to go. You guys are awefully sensitive. And btw I get very few referrals from my wife. She's not working much while our daughter is young. Focus on the things you can change, not intangible things you can't affect. That's all. Not meant to be insulting.
Bill

Thanks for the reply Bill. Much appreciated.

Believe it or not, most of us really are trying to be positive, change what can and needs to be changed.

However, the current financial climate is not helping, and as I mentioned earlier, the '13' in 2013 is putting a lot of people off too.

I have LOTS of inquiries for 2014 though!

Dave. 2012.was my best year by far to the point that my wife could draw back on working as much
. My market is under 200k people in the American south. Not your normally progressive area. I figure if I can do it in a small way here it can be done anywhere. Check out Natalie Bradley at Bride Attraction | Market to Highend Brides | Wedding Industry Marketing | Niche Bridal Marketing | Bridal Advertising (http://www.brideattraction.com) miracle working marketing. Best of luck.
Bill

As long as I was blaming my issues on my market, I got nowhere. As soon as I changed my self I'm headed where I want to go.

You are lucky you don't live and work in Belgium, here you can't sell a wedding over 2000 euro, Belgians are just not that videominded. It doesn't matter how good you are, the market in this country will not allow you to do high end stuff and changing your own attitude won't help a bit. Brides don't pay for what you are worth, they just look for the cheapest available and there are plenty.

There is also a reason why the best known weddingvideographers don't live here, there are very good ones but they all are into small business and corporate videos because that is where the money is at.

If I remember properly, I think during the audio section Rob says something like, "I don't normally use live music in the edit, but if the bride has spent 15 or 20,000 on a live band, there's no way I'm not recording some of that for the video."

Assuming he didn't mean 1,500 or 2,000, that kind of gave me pause. For what kind of wedding would someone spend 15,000-20,000 on a band?

Some random musings...

In Australia, the average spend on a wedding is something like 50,000-60,000, including engagement ring and honeymoon. Of that, about 10% gets spent on photo and video. I think those are the stats anyway.

In Sydney, it's not uncommon for photogs to charge 3,000-5,000. So, just going by pure averages, if the bride has a 5,000 or 6,000 budget for media, then 2,000 or 3,000 is about the sweet spot for video. And, in fact, almost all video packages in Sydney are around that point, which I think also happens to be about the price you need to charge anyway to make it viable if you're shooting with a two-person crew.

The Sydney market I think does support more costly video packages. Maybe up to 8,000. And given the choice between shooting half a dozen weddings a year at 8,000, or 30 or 40 at 2,000-3,000, the latter approach does make a lot more money, but you're working much harder for it; the former allows more time to make money from other sources (for instance, to teach cinematography courses and thereby further promote your brand), or just to take take life a little easier...

I'm skeptical that higher-end prices wil stay at this sort of point forever. Competition wil drive it down. Gear will get cheaper. Rob looks to have invested around 50,000-60,000 in his equipment. But maybe you could shoot most of his stuff running around with a $500 DSLR and a 50mm prime...

By the way, I'm struck that there are trade-offs to Rob's style of shooting, including:

-- staging shots = less natural reactions; also means that you are less invisible than some brides would like. There is a definite market for "natural, candid, unobtrusive", even among the wealthy. We've shot a wedding for an ex Prime Minister's child -- all they wanted was a natural, unstaged capture of their memories of the day.
-- prime lenses = missing many moments. When armed with a prime lens, you sort of learn the trick of positioning yourself in a good spot to capture things as they happen. Bride laughs -- you're already set up with a nice over the shoulder. But it also means that if you're armed with a 50, and something interesting happens on the other side of the room, like father of bride entering and kissing the mother, you've missed it. Or if you're armed with a 100 macro, and a group of people do something interesting close to you, like join hands in a circle and say a prayer, you've missed it. The overall result is a beautiful video, but lacking some of the heart and intimacy that a documentary style might have. That said, Rob does indeed catch many nice moments with his primes, and I do think that Rob's editing style, and the way he uses speeches, does put a lot of emotion into his videos that some other "cinematic" people might be missing.
-- beauty of image = cutting some of the ugly-but-interesting out of the day. Both in the sense of great moments that are flawed image-wise, perhaps because of focus or shake, and in the sense of human reactions, like drunk people doing crazy crap.

Maybe in future people will develop ways -- styles of editing, methods of shooting -- to bridge the documentary/cinematic divide...

I guess maybe in the USA brides are prepared to spend $20K on a band...over here she is stressed that the DJ is costing her $1K. I did do a wedding back in October than had a 6 piece band and I was shocked that they were paid a mere $1000 to play for 6 hours. Transport and setup time aside, that means each player made a miserable $166 !! I chatted to the band members and they said they have to compete with a DJ who works solo so that's all they get.

It obvious that different countries and even different states have different markets ..even Perth will attract a lower videography price than Sydney ... the median price here last year was $25K and that's for everything and I think the East Coast was $10K higher. Probably the biggest chunk of of that would be the reception venue and there isn't much left to pay for everything else.

Chris

Just for fun, here's a rough equipment breakdown for Rob's gear, based on B&H prices (obviously, eBay might be a lot cheaper, and you get things cheaper if you buy them bundled, etc, etc).

-- 3 x MkII bodies @ $2,149 each = $6,447 (can be had used for around $1,500; when first released, I think it was more like $3,500-$4,000). 1 x 7D body = $1,399. Total: $7,846.
-- Memory cards... I actually find I shoot about 200-200GB per wedding on four cameras, going up to 300GB+ if there's some entertainer the couple wants me to record or it's a long Indian ceremony or whatever. And then you have to have enough cards for shooting two weddings in a row. And some spare, just in case, which also allows you to change out cards before important events. I think 20 x 32GB Sandisk Extreme Pro is about right = $2,939 at $149.95 each. (Note: in Australia, these cards are ridiculously expensive in photo stores -- $349.95 each... unbelievable... Do they not realise there's a thing called the internet?)
-- Batteries. I find I go through 25 batteries on an average wedding, but maybe I overshoot and should also turn the cameras off more between events. Anyways... 25 x $57.95 = $1448.75.
-- 3 x Manfrotto BHDV-1 = $749.85.
-- Tripods. I actually have a feeling Rob's skimped on these. Doesn't look like his tripods have level adjustment -- you have to fiddle with the legs instead, which is freaking annoying! But maybe also he uses such tripods because they're much lighter and easier to pack. But let's say they're $500 each = $1,500.
-- Glidecam 4,000 with vest --$2,491.
-- Kessler crane: $500 for a basic one.
-- Cinevate FLT 26" DSLR slider = $579.
-- Lenses. I'm not sure exactly what his lens configuration is, whether each shooter has a set of primes or not. I think it's at least: 24mm (which he also uses on steadicam; $1,699), 35mm ($1,379), 50 f/1.2 ($1,479), 85 f/1.2 ($1,999), two x 135 ($999 each), two x 70-200 f/2.8 version II ($2,399 each), 100mm macro IS ($1,049). Total cost: $14,401. (Maybe more, maybe less; depends on which version of the lenses he's got and how many.)
-- Audio. Roland R-44: $1095. Roland R-05 x 3 = $597. Tram TR-50 x 3 = $689.85. Shure SM57 = $99. Shure SM58 = $99. Auxiliary gear (cables, XLR splitter, adapters, deadcats, boom poles, batteries, memory cards) = $400. Videomic Pro x 3 = $687. Quality headphones: $100. Total = $3,766.85, which really isn't bad at all.
-- Two x Arri 650 fresnels ($379 each) + stands (let's say $100 each) = $958. Add another $200 for bulbs and spare bulbs and fuses = $1,200.
-- Carrying bags = depending on how budget he's gone... If you start to buy $350 Lowepro rolling cases and tripod cases, the costs just add up. To carry his gear, he'd need at least one rolling case, one audio backpack, two big tripod cases, one of which has the lights. So he could easily have spent $1,400. Let's say it's $1,000.
-- Other random bits and pieces, including lens cleaning stuff, quick release plates, spare lens caps: $200.

TOTAL: $38621.45, which isn't that bad at all! If you wanted an equivalent kit, and you were starting from nothing, I think it would take you 2 or 3 years to get to Rob's level and start making a decent profit.

I'm sure I've left out different things... Maybe he has a timelapse device, for instance; and he said he uses ND filters. And excluding cost of computers and software. And no doubt you could save a fair bit if you wait for free shipping and shop around for used equipment...

By the way, with the sort of money he's charging, I really wonder how long he's going to resist the pull of the Mk3 -- with it's better low light ability, longer recording times, dual card slots, headphone jack, and quickly declining price tag...

I imagine whether you are in Belgium or Sydney or Perth, a market for what you do and what you want to make can be created. It's about distinguishing yourself from the pack and clearly articulating your value. Sounds easy when you say it like that... :-) but Rob could do what he does with video camera or a much more modest kit. The brides that hire him aren't necessarily looking for long form coverage and he says that from the outset. He spends a lot on audio because thats what is critical. I haven't necessarily drank the koolaid but I thought the info was valuable. I remember Adam Forgione talking about the market in New York and how it was just aweful and he had to jump in and create a demand for what he does. I think he has. Rob's training was definately worth $99 :-)
Bill

My God is it worth $99. I'd be willing to pay $1,000 or $2,000. Though I also think that almost every suggestion he makes -- of gear, of shooting method, etc -- is to be found somewhere in this forum if you read long enough.

One thing that impressed me, by the way, about Rob's 20-minute films (for instance, Wesleyan Social) is that they are solid "storytelling", solid craftsmanship, and not reliant on flashiness.

I've seen dress shots in videos where the videographer has put the dress on a mannequin next to a pond, and, using a remote rotating head on a jib, cranes up from the reflection and rotates at the same time to reveal the dress -- that's arguably a bit ostentatious. A bride said to me recently she doesn't want any "fake, sweeping shots" in her video.

Rob's stuff, in comparison -- the overall tone fits the day, and, to use the Rob term, it's sequence, sequence, sequence, with each shot of the sequence well composed. It's a repeatable method. Even if you're having an off day, you're not just hunting around looking for random interesting shots (which has often been my tendency in the past).

I imagine whether you are in Belgium or Sydney or Perth, a market for what you do and what you want to make can be created. It's about distinguishing yourself from the pack and clearly articulating your value. Sounds easy when you say it like that... :-) but Rob could do what he does with video camera or a much more modest kit.

Sorry, but if you would live here and proved otherwise I"d believe you but you don't so you have no idea what the market or general attitude towards wedding video is. You almost make it sound like we don't know what we are doing. Believe me when I say that withing the boundaries of this very small country you can distinguish yourself but no-one will accept your real value.

I see Robs "average" investments are around 7500 dollar, if Rob would live here and only work in this country and plan to ask those prizes he would be doing video for a hobby...The "average" investments here are around 1000 to max 2000 dollar and at 2000 you are really stretching it.

Hey Noa

Me too sadly. I'd love to shoot $7500 weddings every weekend but it isn't going to happen. Long from Canada actually has the same sort of approach as Bill so I'm very surprised he hasn't chirped in by now.

Our market for a full wedding is much the same as yours is ..I once tried a price increase and sales just dropped ...I was obviously out of the "sweet spot"

I did offer a fancy wedumentary package that went around the $3K mark where apart from the wedding I did interviews both pre and post wedding so it was much like a reality show...A guy in Miami does them and it really impressed me ...however brides here were simply not interested at all!!

Chris

I think it's very market dependant.

He's obviously a creative genius with bundles of energy - who, after starting in the wedding video industry, very quickly discovered that most weddings are actually quite tedious and mundane. Leveraging the fact that most Americans (and this is a HUGE generalisation) tend to be a little more extroverted, he’s targeted really high-end clientele who are happy to spend time on their wedding day ‘re-creating’ (read FAKING) a lot of scenes to produce very cinematic films with a brilliantly strong story.

This simply wouldn’t work in my market in New Zealand for a lot of reasons. The average bride here is a little more chilled out and less willing to ‘reveal her soul to the world’ to create something on this level. Many would not have the budget for anything like a US$9500 video – that would be the average budget of an entire wedding here! If you attempted to ask a groom to remove and button up his waist-coast 3 times just so you could have 3 different angles he would tell you to **** off. We’re just not that into ourselves. (There is no New Zealand equivalent to Jerry Springer on TV)

I can imagine most weddings in the UK being similar. Not great weather, brides who are a little more reserved with their emotions, tighter budgets etc.

Don’t get me wrong – he’s got some fantastic ideas and I’m still loving his work and picking up some great tips, but I’m watching the mock ‘first-look’ lessons he’s going through now with my jaw wide open thinking... “Are you freaking kidding me? Go shoot a movie or something and let these people just get married already!”

What John said pretty much sums it up what I feel about it as well, every country will has different traditions and different budgets and thinking that you can implement Robs business plan anywhere and be successful if you set your mind to it and work hard you are not realistic.

It's not even easy for me to get a clients wedding on my website in a trailer because most value their privacy and don't want to share with the whole world.
I even occasionally get brides who ask after a year or so to remove their trailer from my site or I am not allowed to show the ceremony because it's too private or I am not allowed to use their vows.

When I look at Robs trailers on his Vimeo site I see he heavily leans on speeches to create a story but if your client don't want you to use that online? That only leaves you with just pretty images.

I think what we are all saying here is that the USA has some specific ways of doing things that are different from the rest of the world. Perhaps Bill is in the lucky position of being within that market and sees the potential to increase revenue more easily that many of us. I don't see any other USA videographers in this thread saying Bill is wrong (sorry if I missed you!).

The market within the 48 states (and beyond) is a "single market" with a single official language covering the "majority" of the population. While there are some variations (traditions and languages), it's nothing like the variations within Europe given the same geographical distances. Often companies will travel state to state for work. That's not usually the case in many other parts of the world.

I don't for one minute think Rob does all his weddings 'locally' (i.e. within 100 miles of home) and I got the felling that like most of the top charging photo pros, he travels to where the weddings are that will pay what he is asking. If that means travelling 1,000+ miles, so be it. 1,000 miles from me is a totally different country, different language, different culture, different traditions and it's very unlikely I would even get a sniff at those jobs.

In this respect the USA is a unique market. There is a huge population (many multiples of any European country, or Australia or New Zealand etc), with a large number of reasonably wealthy people spread across a large area that you can tap in to. That's not the case anywhere else that I can think of. Just like Canon can make a single marketing campaign for the USA, it takes different campaigns in each of the european countries (not forgetting Aus and NZ) to make things work (which is another reason we pay more!). They can't address everyone with a single message.

Unless your country is totally up for video (perhaps the Philippines?) then it's always going to be an add-on that only 'some' brides have, and it's not the priority for the vast majority (until they regret not having it after the day when it's too late). Yes, we know they are misguided, but that's how it is. And, it doesn't help when national bridal magazines are showing wedding budgets that allow only £800 to cover BOTH photo and video! Where do they get this stuff from? But that's what brides who read the magazines now have in their minds as the market rates and if you are charging more you must be ripping them off!

I don't think Rob is doing 30 x $10,000 weddings a year either. I really don't. So if people are thinking they can take Rob's recipe and translate that in to 30 weddings @ $10,000 even within the USA, I don't think you're being realistic. And if you try to apply the recipe outside of the USA then you're certainly going to be struggling for 30 a year!

Is there are market for higher price weddings everywhere and in every country? Yes, I think there is. But I don't think you'll find 30 a year 'locally' unless you are in a large population area with lots of wealthy people with sons and daughters getting married. Even if that's the case, there will also be 1001 other videographers trying to tap the same market, which inevitably causes price pressure.

You also won't find high value brides by only having a web site, or visiting local wedding fairs (bridal fairs, call them what you will) etc. The people spending that kind of money rarely go to these events. They are found 'other ways'.

So, the question is, how do you find the brides who want the high quality service and end product that also see the value and are willing (and able) to pay for it? There are ways, which include Wedding Planners etc. But then again, wedding planners aren't as big here as they are in the USA because, guess what? The majority of people won't pay for them!

The next question is, how many of those brides actually exist within the geographical area you "can" serve? Don't forget insurance and work permits etc. You can't just fly anywhere and 'work at will', it has to be legal!

Once you've figured out how many opportunities there are, next take a stab at what % of those brides will pick 'you' and 'why'?

Now we're getting close ;)

Within every geographical area there is a sweet spot. There will always be weddings at higher values within (almost) every area, but you have to be able to create a reputation within those communities that builds over time. I don't think there is ever a magic bullet that will take you from low/mid weddings to all $5,000 - $10,000 'this-year'. It's just not going to happen.

Rob has taken YEARS to get where he is. If it was easy (from a business and marketing side), everyone would be doing it and then of course the competition would be driving down the price all over again.

I wish Rob luck as he goes forward. But I got the feeling, reading between the lines that he wasn't happy. Maybe he isn't getting enough work, maybe he's bored. But he was definitely looking around at other things. And of course, he didn't do the Creative Live thing for free either.

Many of the guys saying they are earning lots of money actually make more from teaching others how to do it, rather than doing it themselves. They don't get many "real jobs" but they have lots of people willing to pay them to teach it, hoping they can some how get the magic ingredient that will propel them to stardom. Of course, there isn't the market for 'everyone' to be successful @ $10,000, so automatically many people will be disappointed.

Hey Noa

Me too sadly. I'd love to shoot $7500 weddings every weekend but it isn't going to happen.

Chris

Frankly, one a month would do me fine. Less work ;)

Well said Dave.

1,000 miles from me is a totally different country, different language, different culture, different traditions and it's very unlikely I would even get a sniff at those jobs.

For me that's max 100 Miles to bring me into another country, tradition and language in 3 directions, I"m live very close to the Netherlands, they have a different tradition in weddings as we do but I hardly get a job there, asking prizes are about the same as in Belgium. Germany is also nearby but eventhough I understand the language it's more difficult to speak so that's a barrier and never done a wedding there and I"m not that far from the French speaking part in Belgium (Belgium is half Dutch, half French speaking) and since I don't speak French at all I only did a very few weddings through a wedding planner that translated for me (You hardly have wedding planners in my country)

Dave,
If you had asked me 18 months ago if brides here would ever pay 3-4k for a video, I would've said resoundingly no. After studying Natalie Bradley's stuff, I changed the language on my website, I changed the work I was showing, but most importantly, I changed my internal approach. I had to clear out all of the head trash. To give an example of how bad it is here... There are 2 videographers that I know of in my area that do short forms. The other one is excellent, and I used to think he took all of the business. Well, he and I are still working about as much as we like. I used to think that southern brides (you can substitute European or Australian or whatever there) were too traditional to accept a short form. The average otherwise is about $1000. In our whole state there are under 10 videographers. The reason is because no one thinks there's a market here. Our city is very small (like 150k metro)considerably smaller than Perth or Sydney for sure. I had to create a market. It took about a year of booking basic coverage and delivering short forms before it started to take off. I got extremely active in the local wedding community, doing videos for vendors, I started a wedding related segment on the local news starring a high end wedding planner. Very little of which cost any money. You guys go research My area, I promise it's not special in that brides value video in general here, they don't but instead of accept that I'm working on helping to change it. Not there yet, but I've almost doubled my rates in 18months. Granted I had a long way to go but I'm hopeful about the future and I hope you guys could do the same where you are. I'm no genius and certainly not disciplined. But, I have stopped blaming my market like I did for so many years. I heard Ray Roman say at Infocus last year that if you think you can't charge what you want in your market, that's better for him because brides are flying him in to your town to shoot their weddings. I think that includes countries like Greece and Australia certainly. Noa, I don't mean to be condescending, just to say that I know you can do it. You just have to find a way...
Bill

just to say that I know you can do it. You just have to find a way...
Ofcourse I can but the only way would be to move to Colombia sc :)

Bring it! I could use the company :)

I did offer a fancy wedumentary package that went around the $3K mark where apart from the wedding I did interviews both pre and post wedding so it was much like a reality show...A guy in Miami does them and it really impressed me ...however brides here were simply not interested at all!!

Chris

This sound interesting. Do you have a link or know who this was, I would like to see one. A quick google search didn't find anything for me.

Thanks.

Hi Daniel

Do a google search for : "wedding documentary jessica & ryan" ...The guy that shot the 8 part series is called Dan Perez ...his camera work is not outstanding but I was sorta smitten by the style..It's real story telling and a behind the scenes probe into how each person felt during the wedding and what they were thinking.

This is part 1 : Wedding Documentary: Jessica & Ryan (Part I) - YouTube

I really thought that brides would have fought to book something like thris approach but alas I was wrong OR my marketing sucks!!!

Watch all 8 clips (even if you watch just a bit of each) so you get an idea of how it's all put together.

I would value your opinion actually!!

Chris

So much work though. You'd have to get $10k to make that worth it, wouldn't you?

Best way to make money in the wedding game is to run courses to show others how to do it and set up a marketing style website with the secrets hidden behind a $1,000 dollar button; then discount it to $500 to show how inclusive you are.

Just looking at this and other websites there seems to be almost as many people trying to find the magic dust that will take them to the $5000+ market as there are brides looking for a video.
I'm not being facetious, I have been one of those for over 20 years. (A videographer, not a bride).

I think I know what Bill means; the secrets if there are any are all there to be found in these forums and elsewhere, it's not the market, or the skills as a videomaker that count as much as having a positive attitude, a driven market approach and a dogged sales attitude. Many of us, me included, can be so frozen by our insecurity as a 'creative', easily side-swiped by just one negative comment about our work or paralysed by a customer's complaint, that when we reach a plateau where we feel comfortable we don't want to break the mould we've created for ourself. The difficulty that I always encountered was during that transition time when by upping your game (and prices) you loose the market you've built but haven't claimed enough new clients to see you through the year. The feeling that it could take a couple of seasons to climb back up, and even then there's no guarantee you'll gain the new market makes it more difficult to carry on and easier to re-claim the familiar market.

I've tried at various time and in various ways to make such a change, each time convincing myself that my market wouldn't stand it, which I know it wouldn't, but knowing in reality that like a butcher in a vegetarian community I'd have to convince them that meat is nice, or start selling somewhere else, or something else.

Whether £5000 weddings will ever be possible in UK I don't know but I do know that if they do exist they won't come knocking on my door I'd have to go out there and find them.

I'm not trying to be clever, I've been happy making a modest living from sub £1000 weddings for the last 20 years; supported by casual and ad-hoc work, some related to my video work and some not, but my main income source has been wedding/event video. If I were starting my business now I'd pay great heed to Bill's words and cultivate my market approach and mental attitude as much as my video skills.

Hi Daniel

Do a google search for : "wedding documentary jessica & ryan" ...The guy that shot the 8 part series is called Dan Perez ...his camera work is not outstanding but I was sorta smitten by the style..It's real story telling and a behind the scenes probe into how each person felt during the wedding and what they were thinking.

This is part 1 : Wedding Documentary: Jessica & Ryan (Part I) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dpFhVeK7hU)

I really thought that brides would have fought to book something like thris approach but alas I was wrong OR my marketing sucks!!!

Watch all 8 clips (even if you watch just a bit of each) so you get an idea of how it's all put together.

I would value your opinion actually!!

Chris

Thanks Chris,

I'll just derail this thread for a moment and I guess we can start a new thread if this is a full conversation we want to partake in.

I didn't have time to watch all of it now, but got an idea of the work. It's interesting for sure and I agree with Bill that this would be a lot more work. It looks like they were there a couple times before and once after.

I wonder if there's a way to make something like this more marketable. Perhaps instead of an 80 minute documentary you (or whoever) could incorporate this into more of a short video or highlights. Perhaps something closer to 20 minutes would make this easier for the bride to watch over an over again. It would also be more internet friendly.

The material in that video (from what I saw) could be shortened and still the same basic story told.

Daniel,
I'm not sure this has been on the rail since it started :) Here's an example I'm working on right now. Trying to incorporate interviews into the final film and trailer. That gives me their story and a direct view into their personality. I'm excited about the possibilities.
Sam & Todd Trailer on Vimeo

Daniel,
I'm not sure this has been on the rail since it started :) Here's an example I'm working on right now. Trying to incorporate interviews into the final film and trailer. That gives me their story and a direct view into their personality. I'm excited about the possibilities.
Sam & Todd Trailer on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/56534661)


That's really good Bill. I like it a lot. The interviews help the story telling. How many people did you end up interviewing? It looks like it's all at the same location.

Bill,
Your opinion on pricing and views about getting the market you want is definitely one I share. In fact, I live in the sf bay area and I know the market here can support $3k+ videos and definitely upwards but its really that mentality of thinking what you think you are worth is the key. I was hesitant when we started and of course as any business would. I think really we just let our videos speak for itself and price our packages according to what we think its worth. We decided beginning of last year to double our prices and interestingly enough we still booked as much as we wanted.

In regards to putting interviews along with the videos, we actually started doing that beginning of 2012. Our main focus first was to get to know the couple more than usual. What we've learned is that we get to fully understand their story and what's important to them. We find deeper meanings in what is and who is important to them on their wedding day, and we find out why. This results in a much more heartfelt video which they can better connect with rather than stitching together some clips of the day. But dont get me wrong, we're no StillMotion since they have a better grasp of dissecting couples. I'm just your average joe.

Just the couple and the sister. Interviews took about an hour. I ended up with 20 mins worth of sound from both. That's enough to make a 15 min film I think. The other 2 I've done have been just the couple. But I also use the rehearsal quite a lot.
Bill

Long from Canada actually has the same sort of approach as Bill so I'm very surprised he hasn't chirped in by now.

Hi Chris,

I didn't give my opinion because I thought this topic has been discussed so many times already and it always ends up being the same. On top of that, my own personal journey and the experience I've been through is probably different than many people so most of you probably can't relate to my stories anyways, not to mention that very few people here would be insane enough to do the things that I did and sacrifices I've made so far.

So if you want to know my story, I really don't mind sharing it or giving advices, but at the end of the day, whether it applies to you or not, all I have to say is just do what you think is right for you and most importantly, just do what ultimately makes you happy.

Happy New Years!

Long

Long, I would be interested in hearing your story.