What happens when an outside video guy walks into a ballroom to shoot a conference? Probably should go in wedding/event section but here it goes.

Some of my points here should be plain common sense, but I still see it happen all the time. Other comments are just the plain honest truth. Most of it is satirical humor.

My production company specializes in corporate audio visual productions/technical direction with an emphasis on video production. I have run live audio for many years, with that said I will also tell you I am not a true A-1. When we do a show with the proper budget I am the guy that hires the A-1. I also fill just about every role there is on the video side of things (my favorite roles). We live in the live show ballroom environment.
So here is the scenario. You (the video guy) gets a call from a meeting planner to show up and record her live event. No problem, it will be easy, right? She even tells you it does not have to be perfect from start to finish so she will only pay for one camera. And no post production. You’re in a bad place already. We have all had those clients that believe everything will be perfect because we are PROFESSIONAL videographers and we have fancy looking cameras. Right? Chances are the planner will be disappointed with anything less than perfection anyway.
Now, the real reason you got the call is because I, or someone like me, already gave her a quote for two cameras, two ops, a video engineer on a switch, and all the expensive stuff that goes with it. The numbers blew the meeting planners mind and budget. So there YOU are. I know all this because I fill both roles. You, the good guy, walks into the ballroom without a clue about thy dynamics of the situation. No problem. You are self sufficient; all you need is a feed from the audio guy. That is where the trouble starts.
There is four guys in a back corner of the room sitting at tables on a riser (with headsets on that will later be used to make you the blunt of AV humor) and almost hidden by the black drape that IS hiding hundreds of feet of cable spaghetti (I’ll get to that). It is seven AM, sixty to thirty minutes before show time (big mistake). You walk up to the guy sitting behind the audio consol and say something like “Hey I need you to give me sound for my camera” (big mistake). “It has to be mic level, I’ll be over there, drop me a line” and you walk away (big mistake).
I am not going to lecture anyone on good communication skills, this is not a lecture, it is supposed to be black humor but I see it happen all the time. Now I, the producer or technical director, who just watched this interaction take place, is thinking “this is going to get ugly and fun to watch!” You the video guy, has just made demands to an overworked, sleep deprived, audio premadona. He and the other guys have spent most of the last twenty four hours building that show, your client is THEIR client and the client probably forgot to even mention you were showing up. They have been through one scheduled rehearsal and two unscheduled rehearsals that went on until one in the morning. At which time the client made multiple changes to the show and room. That kept the technicians there until four AM. There are two other guys standing there that are not technicians, they are presenters having the graphics guy make last minute changes to his PowerPoint slides that were already loaded into the final decks. It is now thirty minutes before kickoff and you showed up without your own XLR cable and no DI Box, and oh yea, your camera only has an eighth inch input and you don’t have a 1/8 to XLR adaptor cable. No problem, the audio guy is there for that, right. Wrong again. It is a lose lose scenario.
So how does this get fixed?

Number one: Show up early. That will fix most of the problems right there. The last hour before a show kicks off is stressful and crazy. You will get the least amount of cooperation at that time. Technicians are the first ones in the room, find out what time their tech call is and be there then. Or better yet, ask the meeting planner if there is a scheduled rehearsal. Show up before that. Everyone wins and there are no surprises about the show.

Number Two: Be prepared. The audio guys only responsibility is to make an audio signal available to you. It is not his job to provide you with cables, adaptors, and a DI Box. He might do it if your there early but he will probably not do it thirty minutes before the show. Chances are very good that you are going to get a line level signal from him. If your camera only takes mic level you should have a DI Box in your kit. It should go without saying, but your 20 DB pad will not save you.

Number Three: Tell the audio guy what you want. Don’t tell him how to do it, he won’t listen anyway.

Number Four: Don’t commit the cardinal sin. Never, never ,never, reach across that drape and touch the board unless you are asked to do so. I am one of the best guys you could hope to find at the board because I am a video guy. I will go out of my way to help you. If you start messing with cable connections or settings I will probably stab you in the hand!

Number Five: Even though you have the same client, it IS their room and they may act like it. I have written about a worst case scenario here for fun. AV guys and audio guys are just like video guys. Be professional and everyone gets along.

Number Six: You want and need a clean program signal from him. But don’t count on it. Have you own back up audio recording system in place.
This was just a fun look at audio guys and video guys in the ballroom, with a few tips. It is obviously not a tutorial on recording the signal. But what is the best way to do that. Use an aux send so every source can be adjusted at rehearsal. It is also the riskiest. Good luck getting that if you’re an outside guy!

Steve

Heh, Yep! Been there, done that both good and bad and on both sides. I knew right where you were going after the first couple of sentences and all I can say is AMEN BROTHER! Good call!

Excellent stuff. I've been there on both sides as well and agree absolutely with everything you said.

Perhaps we should publish a couple of recommended audio connection kit specs. A "dream kit" with everything we've ever needed, and a "minimum kit" below which you shouldn't be so presumptuous as to call yourself a professional.

While Steven makes some good points, I'll take issue with the statement "The audio guys only responsibility is to make an audio signal available to you."

MANY video guys make this assumption. Unless the technical rider SPECIFICALLY requests an audio feed for cameras, it ISN'T their job. If they accommodate you AT ALL, consider yourself lucky.

Their job is to provide room sound and whatever is on the technical rider for the show.

The board they have supplied MAY only have the requisite outputs for THEIR show. Not every gig has a 32 channel Soundcraft for a single podium mic. Which is why it is so important to be involved EARLY and carry adaptors, converters and DI boxes as Steven suggests. Even then, you may not be accommodated at all.

I carry a TON of extra audio gear on every conference/convention shoot for exactly that reason... my audio kit is pretty comprehensive but every now and again even with all that, I get stymied.

Which is why Steven's Numbers 1 & 6 are so important. Thanks for sharing.

Video guy here, +1 for a kit outline ;p

My list off the top of my head:

Y-Splits: (2 or more of each)

XLRF - 2 x XLRM
1/4" TRS-M - 2 x 1/4" TRS-F
1/4" TRS-M - 2 x 1/4" TS-F (also called an "insert cable")

Gender Turn arounds

XLRM - XLRM
XLRF - XLRF
RCA-F - RCA-F
1/4" TRS-F - 1/4" TRS-F

Adaptors

1/4" TRS-M - XLRF
1/4" TRS-M - XLRM
1/4" TS-M - RCA-M
XLRM - TRS-F
RCA-M - XLRF
XLRM - RCA-F
1/4" TS-M - XLRF
3.5mm TRS-M - 2 x RCA male (cable)
3.5mm TRS-M - 1/4" TRS-F
1/4" TRS-M - 3.5mm TRS-F

Impedence

Whirlwind IMP2

Cables

1/4" TRS-M - 1/4" TRS-M (18", 6' and 25')
1/4" TS-M - 1/4" TS-M (18", 6' and 25')
XLRF - XLRM (18", 6' and 25' lengths + 50' and 100' on some gigs)
RCA-M - RCA-M (18", 6" lengths)
3.5mm TRS-M - 3.5mm TRS-F (for extending headphones and laptop audio feeds)

Small Mix Pad
Behringer XENYX802 or similar JUST IN CASE...

ADDENDUM: I also carry some miscellaneous bitz for "unbalancing" stereo 1/4" and 3.5mm outputs before inserting them into balanced or unbalanced XLR runs...

ADDENDUM 2: strangely absent is a vari-pad which strangely, I have never needed in 14 years but I always mean to go buy... nor do I carry humbuckers. My Whirlwinds DO have ground lifts which I use on occasion...

ADDENDUM 3: I sometimes build "combo cables" out of component parts and gender turnarounds as needed...

ADDENDUM 4: an audio kit is only as good as the knowledge of the operators involved... it is REALLY easy to mess up line/mic/consumer line/stereo/balanced/unbalanced and end up with no audio, distorted audio, faint audio...

ADDENDUM 5: it is also important to know where your feed is coming from... I OFTEN ask for a Main Mix/Front of House mix if I can safely assume that additional sources may be added over the course of the run of a show... the audio tech MAY forget to add a laptop audio feed to the Aux send he/she is giving you, leaving you with nothing... having said that, an Aux send means that you can get more or less signal without "interfering" with the FoH mix... Sometimes, I actually get my own matrix feed, depending on the venue...

I may forget my name sometimes, but I won't forget Steven's post!

Man what a great thread for info. Love this website, ive learned more things about tech outside of my field here than anywhere else.

and that is why you need an audio guy as part of your video shooting crew, to make sure that the audio for your video reflects what you need not what the PA company is doing for their front of house sound.

The needs of video and broadcast as far greater than a PA or conferencing company usually provide and you need a sound guy to make sure all the buzzes are sorted out and that what you get is useable and not just some audio provided as a courtesy feed.

An audio guy will also have the interface boxes required and will also be able to guide the PA guys into giving useable feeds or even splts that can be mixed seperately to suit the video production.

Every year I have to cover a big business event which also includes a lot of presentations, It's the 5th year I did this now and I remember very clearly the very first time I did that (with hardly any experience in these type of events) where I asked to late for a feed, then discovered the sound was distorted and had to ask the sound guy when the event was live if he could fix it but he couldn't leaving me with unusable sound. I did have a backup at a soundspeaker which didn't sound good but it saved me from disaster.

This year during preplanning the organisator brought me in contact through mail with the audio guys, I asked if I could get a live feed for my Tascam recorder and that it could accept a line or mic level and told them where I was planning to stand with my camera. The day of the event I was there early during sound check so the audio guys could spend a few minutes for me to check the levels and all I needed to do was to plug in the xlr cable. Then I got clean and very usable sound. Lesson learned.. :)

I do both roles. Every time I run FOH, I leave a line level XLR sitting there in case anyone shows up to do video. It may not be the proper behavior for a primadona but it is a professional thing to do. You are ensuring the success of the event for your client within the bounds of your role. It's much easier to handle XLR to Camera issues in the 60 minutes before a show than to start from scratch.

The last time I recorded a live concert we agreed that the audio guy would save the audio to a usb stick.
He gave me the stick and apologised for having missed the first five minutes.
However, he had completely messed up and had recorded the first five minutes ONLY!
I had a stereo mic mounted on the camera as one back up and also two microphones working as a stereo pair into a mixer and sound recorder as the second backup, which saved the day.
You can't have too many backups :-)
Thank you Shaun for your list. It's priceless.

why the hell a video guy would rely on the audio guy ?
Your job is to get picture AND sound on the tape, so you have to come with all what is necessary to get your job done.
Usually i come in an event with ZERO ressource assumption, when even a main plug is sometime impossible to get.

So , everthing must be running on battery, for at least twice he duration of the show.
Sound is wireless, because there are chance you wont even get the chance to install a cable.
Everthing is doubled (even if you will not use it, or if the B-cam is your iphone)
The problem solver box is mandatory with all adapters and cables required for in and out. (remember when the guy pops at last minute to get the live video feed in the room next door.)
And usually also, i come as late as possible before the show, so i am sure every thing is set for sure.
(remember when you place your tripod at the best place in an empty room, to discover it is in fact the worst place when audience filled the room ?)

If you have to rely on something, this must be specified with the meeting planner the first time you see him.

While Steven makes some good points, I'll take issue with the statement "The audio guys only responsibility is to make an audio signal available to you."

MANY video guys make this assumption. Unless the technical rider SPECIFICALLY requests an audio feed for cameras, it ISN'T their job. If they accommodate you AT ALL, consider yourself lucky.

Their job is to provide room sound and whatever is on the technical rider for the show.

The board they have supplied MAY only have the requisite outputs for THEIR show. Not every gig has a 32 channel Soundcraft for a single podium mic. Which is why it is so important to be involved EARLY and carry adaptors, converters and DI boxes as Steven suggests. Even then, you may not be accommodated at all.

I carry a TON of extra audio gear on every conference/convention shoot for exactly that reason... my audio kit is pretty comprehensive but every now and again even with all that, I get stymied.

Which is why Steven's Numbers 1 & 6 are so important. Thanks for sharing.

You are correct, sir!

Regards,

Ty Ford

Same as Richard -- "I've been there on both sides as well and agree absolutely with everything you said"
- Note: Addendum 4- It amasses me how many working techs don't know basic operating levels. (mic, -10, +4dB)

PS- I never leave home w/o a few iso transformers.

and that is why you need an audio guy as part of your video shooting crew, to make sure that the audio for your video reflects what you need not what the PA company is doing for their front of house sound.

The needs of video and broadcast as far greater than a PA or conferencing company usually provide and you need a sound guy to make sure all the buzzes are sorted out and that what you get is useable and not just some audio provided as a courtesy feed.

An audio guy will also have the interface boxes required and will also be able to guide the PA guys into giving useable feeds or even splts that can be mixed seperately to suit the video production.


WOW! At least your audio guys know what they are doing! It's even more fun when they don't!
I also doing both, agree with Gary.
I usually get a simple and separate backup in place first, to CYA, then if I have an audio guy he can attempt to get something acceptable from the house.
But more times than none things go wrong from the house guys, like missing a panelist, or not getting an extra mic sent over, or even moving the mic when someone speaks but not into the mic.
Many times I've split all mics into our own mixer so each unused mic is pulled down and someone rides all the channels.
But that's what makes a professional a professional; the client usually never knows the behind the scenes chaos and that's what some of us live for.

This was a great thread to read at the breakfast table. Steven is a good story teller and I really liked Shaun's cable & connector list but Jonathan Levin's post hit the spot.

Basically, I'm an equipment and detail guy and would like to throw out there that transporting all that stuff is important too. A couple months ago we went to a birthday party for one of the family members so I took along some of my camera gear: Three light stands, tripod, Glidecam, two cameras and various assundry other items. The trunk of our Toyota Prius isn't that large and it got pretty full with all the gear and a few items even had to be put in the back seat.

On the trip home which required a ferry ride we disembarked the ferry and the road led up to a stoplight which was red and we stopped. The guy in the Audi behind us didn't - he was busy reading a map to see where he had to go. WHAM! Really whacked us in the rear end. Fortunately he wasn't moving that fast but it still was a good whack. (Read: Audi 1, Prius 0)

Among the pictures I took were some of my camera gear in the trunk. As it turns out my B-roll camera was right inside the trunk and exactly where his license plate hit. It still works - kinda. The remote part doesn't work now.

The blue carry-on case has the Glidecam and the Rycote blimp in it.

Lesson learned: Put your important and sensitive gear in the passenger compartment and not in the trunk.
One picture is with the camera bag closed, the other with it open to show the contents.

Edit: Just thought I'd add one more thing for some of the readers in the US. In Giroud's post mentioned:
"Usually i come in an event with ZERO ressource assumption, when even a main plug is sometime impossible to get."
Comment: The "main plug" is the wall outlet, 240VAC in Europe, 120VAC duplex receptacle in the US. I've done some building construction in Austria and came to find out that's what they call the AC electrical system there.

Which is why flight cases are worth their cost. Despite the cost and the extra weight and size - every expensive item I buy now gets treated to a proper case.

There are some great responses here…Thank you. I love to share tips and RECEIVE them. I don’t have time at the moment for all of the comments I would like to post but here are a few.

Cables, adapters, & tools. First I teach guys I work with that all adapters are bad. They are also show savers. When you NEED one, use it, but do not put it in the signal path because it is convenient.

My “tech kits” are a tiered system with too much stuff to itemize. But I am sure many of us can list some of the less common thing there that others may not have thought about. Like iso transformers.

My absolutely never leave home without it kit that is always in my pack bag is something like this:
PortaBrace - Computers / Projectors (http://www.portabrace.com/products/computers/185-director-s-case-tech-module)

Mine is old, this must be the upgraded version of it (I’m a huge PortaBrace fan). But anyway that’s just the bag. What’s in it? About 150 adapters, small patch cables, in line pads and gender benders, flash lights, tools (Leatherman mandatory), E-Tape, ground lifts, universal adjustable power supply, tri taps, simple plug in style AC socket tester, simple touch type power tester (my multi meter won’t fit here),extra tripod plate screws in both sizes, fuses, a piece of foil (don’t shoot me, it is my first aid kit).

Explained:
Jewelers screw drivers and tech screw drivers. Two Sure “tweak tools”. Screw drivers that come with good Sure mics specifically made for gain adjustment slots, a must have. I also have some screwdrivers with isolated shafts.

Tri Taps – I hate power strips, especially cheap ones. I often use tri taps instead. Much more reliable and safer than dime store circuit protection as long as you pay attention.
Ground lifts. The most valuable $2.00 item you can own. Often work like magic to clean up dirty audio and video signals. Using your Leatherman tool to yank the ground pin out of my extension cords is NOT acceptable!

A long time ago 1/8” mini cables were not even a part of pro video or AV devices. Now they are critical. So my kit has as many adapters and extensions for that as does for ¼”. Including the hard to find, like mini to RCA video and L/R audio.

That is just my basic kit that I have at all times. I don’t think I have ever gone on a shoot or show when I did not reach for that bag.

Thanks for all of the comments. There are many above I want to respond to later. Like “amazed at a lack of understanding about basic gain structure” you are right on, absolutely true! That goes along with not knowing TRS and TS plug structure etc.

Ryders? I’ll get to that one.

Steve

John, I am sorry to here about your accident. I know how much that sucks.

Lesson learned: Put your important and sensitive gear in the passenger compartment and not in the trunk.


Agree, a photog at a wedding where I was as well left home after the reception and had all his gear in the trunk of his BMW, at a traffic light he stopped but a car behind him didn't and rammed the rear of his car at about 90km, he had 2 hasselblads with him with analog films, all his gear was destroyed including every photo he took that day.

I have a few Rolls DB25 "direct box" units. They are a good iso transformer with an adjustable attenuator. They are great for not only isolation from the venue system, but also for adjusting for whatever weird level you may be getting from them. No messing around with a bunch of fixed attenuators. The older model (which I have) use a 3-position slide switch with 0 ~ 20 ~ 40 dB attenuation. The newer model uses a pot for a fully-variable attenuation (including no attenuation).

The Rolls MS20c Splitter/Combiner/Isolator is also a handy piece of kit.

You know this thread has me thinking of starting another thread "Things I'd always have with me on a sound job"

Everyone OK with that. I'm thinking it would either be a "Sticky" in the Audio forums (don't know how to do that- Chris Hurd????) and any and everyone in the audio community could contribute. If this seems dumb, I'm OK with that too.

Jonathan

Shaun & Ty,

Technical riders:

First, I am based out of Phoenix but only about 20% of my work is here. The rest of it takes place any other place in the country my clients send me. Suffice it to say I am comfortable working in just about any working environment the geographic location affords. Second, I will not get into a union vs. nonunion discussion on any public forum. I do understand your true statement that “technically the audio guy is not obligated to provide a signal unless specified in the technical rider”.

I will also say that as a business man and service provider I AM obligated to accommodate every request the client makes, if at all possible. And I do that in every way I possibly can. Once on site, I would NEVER resort to the technicalities of a contract and say “we cannot do that because you did not put it on paper” even though that can be the case. My number one job is to make things happen. If I can’t, I am not going play an “ink or blame game”. I will work it out or explain it in reasonable terms.

Running a little production company or freelancing for a living is hard. I am asked all the time by non-industry people, “why are you always on the road, can’t your clients get the same thing you do in all those cities you go to?” Of course they can. The answer to that question is only partially due to my technical abilities and creative skills as a videographer or technical director. The real reason is TRUST. It is about the business relationships I build with them. The quality of the product is a given. How we go about delivering that product as a business person and a human being is every bit as important as the product. Again, I am not writing this out of arrogance or sake of debate. For young guys wanting to earn a full time living being self employed that is probably the most important “tip” I have ever posted on this board. Life has been good to me, sometimes more so than others, I work hard it, and I work to get through the hard times.

Steve

Art make some great low cost interface boxes that will take levels from everything up to 100w speaker feeds they also have split and isolation boxes that I use all the time on outside broadcasts!

I am a sound guy who now has a small production facility but the need to get clients to specify requirements has never been greater but I still carry shed loads of kit to make sure I can get the job done bit sometimes keeping things under my control can be far more fruitful than relying on other's from a third party.

sometimes I do camera and sound together but tend to keep it all under my control but at times I wish I had a zoom R16 to enable split track recording my camera has four tracks and for most jobs that is enough with an external mixer

http://artproaudio.com/artcessories/audio_solutions/
http://artproaudio.com/artcessories/di_boxes/product/av_direct/

Steven: I think you may have misunderstood my point. Frequently "video guys" walk into a room and ASSUME that because there is an audio tech on location, they are entitled to a feed. Again, you as the audio tech may not have one available if you were not briefed. As well, the "video guy" is the lowest on the proverbial totem pole... you need to get the gig going first. IF you have time to spare and are able to help get an unannounced videographer a feed, kudos.

I have seen MANY situations where every output of a board was tied up.

My point was quite simple: if you as a videographer have not been contractually guaranteed an audio feed, which is then represented in the technical rider, you MAY not get one.

And it is merely good form to appreciate when someone is able to accommodate you unexpectedly.

Don't read any more into my response than that.

Having said that, having a media breakout box available as part of your standard setup isn't the worst idea in the world either...

Shaun, Totally understood and agreed upon. Audio consoles are like hard drive space, no matter how big it seems when you get it there is never enough room in the end :)

Press boxes are a great solution for multiple outputs, try finding one these days when you need it, at least in a ballroom. I have a small one of my own. And yes, I have seen audio guys scratching there head a thousand times because the input/output requirements exceeded their expectations as the show exponentially grew. It's all good, I am enjoying this conversation because of the good reply's. including yours.

Steve

Steven: I think you may have misunderstood my point. Frequently "video guys" walk into a room and ASSUME that because there is an audio tech on location, they are entitled to a feed. Again, you as the audio tech may not have one available if you were not briefed. As well, the "video guy" is the lowest on the proverbial totem pole... you need to get the gig going first. IF you have time to spare and are able to help get an unannounced videographer a feed, kudos.
...

All true....communication is the key to making anything work....and sometimes, on a public forum I misread intent.

Steve

...Press boxes are a great solution for multiple outputs, try finding one these days when you need it, at least in a ballroom...
Shameless semi-on-topic plug:
I have two Aphex 120 Audio Distribution Amps (http://www.aphex.com/aphex-products/120a-distribution-amp/) tied together in a single rack space. Each is 1x4 xlr, with trims on each output, and the input loops out, effectively stereo 1x5. In reading the spec, these might do mic level fine, though I've always used them at line level.

Since I haven't been doing so much ballroom work, they've been sitting, lonely... and I really should get rid of them. So much enthusiasm in this thread, I figure someone here needs them.

This is a pre-sale notice, I'll post them in classifieds next time I get to my storage, but let me know via pm if you're interested.

Sweet DAs, really. Think small pressbox in a rack...

Thanks Steven... class act... I ofttimes am seen as a disturber of fecal matters but that is not my intent... this forum is VERY close to my heart and is the place I share most openly stuff that I would otherwise CHARGE for my knowledge...

Was just acknowledging that there are those video folk that have decided they are ENTITLED to a feed when I am THANKFUL for every feed I get.

With all the comments about the cases of gear one takes along, maybe I'll add one more thought titled "Surviving your experience on the job or gig". Being a hobbyest and not having nearly the gear the professionals have, what I do have I try to keep in pristine condition and not loos it, either through misplacing it or by someone walking off with it.

I've heard of too many cases where trusting people in a public place had their guitar or other valuable instrument stolen so I keep an eye on everything, and try to keep it together beside me as much as possible. Either that, or have someone I trust keep an eye on it.

This has been a great thread and there is just so much to learn about electronics, cabling, and audio in general.

Many years ago, when I was doing a lot of work in the [dreaded] conference center arena [more like a circus than an arena], I was having trouble keeping all my cables.

I bought a big spool (probably 500 ft.) of shielded twisted pair, with a nice purple outer jacket. Made all my mic cables out of that. It wasn't a bright color, so it worked fine on stands, podiums, etc. But nobody had the stones to pick it up and walk off with it, and it did wonders for my inventory control.

It's hard to apply that concept to every piece of gear... I just offer it for what it's worth (and as general commentary on the "wild west" mindset that sometimes prevails).

Despite being a video person, I also provide lighting and sound, and it's so irritating after perhaps spending hours rehearsing lighting and sound when the video people arrive while the audience are taking their seats and ask for a feed, have no cables, DIs or anything. Often, at this late stage, running a cable across the audience area is simply unsafe - no way to cover it or tape it down. They also seem to assume that you KNOW what they want in the mix, very few asking for specifics - can I have just vocals on one channel and music on the other. Many also assume that you will be monitoring what they get - as in listening to it and adjusting balance. This is just impossible. The audio people are looking after the sound for people in the room - not video. If you want more than this - use your own audio system. The other thing is level - it's common with public shows for volume to creep up during the show. They won't even think of your feed, so camera people need to be able to drop the level themselves, by allowing for this when setting initial levels.

Camera people also annoy the lighting people too of course. Any request for me to make a scene less red, or less blue or brighter rarely results in a change. I may have spent hours on just this look and I'm not going to change it ten minutes before we start! If the show is being video recorded and I know this in advance, I'll always have a video camera and monitor I can look at when creating each state - and I can drop anything likely to burn out on camera, and perhaps give a little more in shadows. If I don't get told video people are coming (on paper) or verbally, it's often too late to find out 30 minutes before showtime.

Finally - so many video people are amazingly hostile when I have to say no. I try not to, because I do understand their needs, but frankly their attitude often stinks, and they treat my people like idiots. When this happens, they get nowhere with me. I won't have my people abused and constantly pestered during the show by the video mans assistant asking for changes. Tough! When it escalates, I just ask the client. I can do what these people want but it will spoil the show at this late stage - their call. very rarely do they ask me to change what we're doing to suit the video. Some even set up right in front of the sound or lighting desk so the ops can't see - so many are like this, that we always recommend the video firms who don't do this when a client asks about video. Even though we do video ourselves, doing it properly is not a cheap activity and if there isn't the budget available to do it properly, we'd rather they got somebody else in.

Paul, I love it. Tell us how you really feel!!! What you said is so true sometimes.

I did not know there would be so many guys here that would relate to my story. Hopefully some good will come out of this thread by getting video guys that think they can walk into a show 30 minutes before show time, and get everything they need, to understand it does not work that way. This is video guys educating video guys.

And don’t get me started with “surviving your experience with the lighting director”. I’m really laughing now. If I had a camera that could record 25 stops of exposure latitude corporate shows would be easy to shoot.


Steve

I think a lot of this relates to the "re-inventing of the wheels" attitude that is very prevalent in the videomaking and even the pro world these days.

There are certain people who don't plan or consider all the elements of their shoot and think that just taking a feed or plonking an LED light and rode video mic on their camera will give them pro results that suit their editing and production needs, rolling up and expecting a full sound mix from a third party is also an example of this lack of planning or understanding.

I meet endless producers and directors (mostly self shoot grads) who are constantly questioning why things are done a certain way and several who have an attitude that if you are "old skool" and have experience then your "whinging" or insistence on doing things a certain way is counter production and obstructive.

They when it all goes wrong on it won't work in the edit etc these "noo meedia muppets" as I call them are all too happy to blame the very people who were trying to advise them once it all falls apart or wont cut together in the edit.

I know several highly skilled people who have stopped working in the industry due to the blatant back stabbing and unwillingness of certain individuals to listen to the expertise that is on hand and do it their own way only to fail due to lack of planning and experience.

The fundamentals of sound lighting and film making have been pretty much well defined for decades and so has the laws of physics so a little prep and understanding of these will go a long way in helping you achieve good acceptable results but at times it all has to be a bit of a compromise but with guidance and from those that are skilled in their trade and pre shoot planning you will get a better result.

There is simething I"d like to know in regard what you audio guys expect a video guy to carry in his tool box when he arrives at an event and expects a feed for his camera.

I only have 2 xlr cables, one long and one short and most of the time just use my Tascam dr40 to record the voices, most of my work is weddings and then I just try to get a feed from the DJ for the speeches, no pre-planning there, just try to ask real nice and friendly and that works out most of the time and levels are checked then very early just after he has set up everything. If the DJ does not have any xlr output left on his board and if he has no other cables with him I"m just out of luck, in that case I attach a small Yamaha recorder to the microphones handle, not the best solution but it works.

Only I do some business events as well where professional light and audio companies are hired there is ofcourse preplanning and they know where I will be standing with my camera in advance so that's all there when I arrive, this means I just have to plugin the xlr cable, attach my Tascam and be there when they do sound checks to check the levels. I also always supply a backup recorder in front of a sound speaker just in case.

Only I see you mentioning DI boxes as well as basic equipment, beside having your own xlr cables. My knowlegde in sound is very limited and that means that I"m allready happy when I get a signal and I always monitor teh sound during the event with my headphones.

In this thread there was a link to this box: ART Pro Audio (http://artproaudio.com/artcessories/di_boxes/product/av_direct/), is this something you would expect a videoguy to have with him at all times as well? What does this di box exactly do and what are it's main advantages over just connecting directly to a soundboard with a xlr cable?

Apart from interfacing with a sound feed you need to be able to control it's level and if you end up having earthing problems that cause hum on your feed you need to be able to isolate your camera from the audio feed by lifting the ground or earth. If you have not had problems so far then you have been lucky.

A box such as the ART one I posted the link to will allow you to do this as it will accept a variety of feeds such as tape outputs etc but will also take a speaker feed if you can not get a proper balanced XLR line level output or an unbalanced jack / -10 tape feed on phono plugs. A variety of XLR adaptors and splitter leads will also be useful, I carry tons of them as part of my shooting sound kit.

A sound guy will generally have such boxes but they may all be in use so if you bring your own it will help him give you what you need, a proper splitter box can also be good to have as it will enable him to add an extra feed to you but still keep things isolated..

I have lots of different ART boxes but a balanced splitter and one of those universal interface boxes are a must if you are doing conferencing or getting audio feeds from PA systems.

Split box I use: ART Pro Audio (http://artproaudio.com/artcessories/audio_solutions/product/splitcompro/) (note this is a mic splitter but I use it for line levels with no problems)

and the universal interface box: ART Pro Audio (http://artproaudio.com/artcessories/di_boxes/product/av_direct/)

I am just staying the mono domain here but if you wish to try to interface in stereo then you will need other equipment that may just end up causing you even more problems, keep it simple and get a clean mono feed.

If you have a balanced line level XLR feed then just the splitter will be useful to isolate it from your equipment, it will also allow you to take a stereo feed and sum it to mono but for other unbalanced interfacing the universal box will be essential as it will also allow you to adjust the incoming level.

In my experience, there are many times when the "producer" (amateur, one-off event organizer) doesn't know any better than to tell the venue sound/lighting people that they also arranged for video recording and vice-versa. And/or the person engaging the video recording is not the same person who is making the venue arrangements and it is like pulling teeth to try to get contact names/phone/email. Or it is last minute and there is practically no time for proper coordination.

And maybe it is just my bad luck, but I frequently find that I know more about the house system after 5 minutes of observation than the volunteer running the show. And/or the house audio system is sealed up inside the cabinet-work and there is practically no way of getting a feed except maybe for the headphone jack on the mixer panel. I have taken more often to carrying mic splitters and a small auto-mixer back in the van to accomodate situations where if there is going to be decent audio, I"m going to have to do it myself. And I have more often taken to just declining these kinds of no-win situations.

For me - the essentials when going into a theatre is pretty straight forward.

2 long XLR-XLR cables, 2 unbalanced quarter inch jack to XLR males, 2 phono to XLR male, some male to male and female to female XLR convertors, a 3.5mm stereo to 2 x XLR male, 2 cheap DI boxes - so cheap that if they vanish it's isn't a problem, and my own Tecpro (clear com compatible) intercom headset and another long XLR - so that with permission, I can listen to their comms system so I know when to push record! This is my pet hate - not knowing the show is about to start, and you can also get a lot of information about things about to happen from their comms chat. I rarely ever talk back unless they talk to me first. You have to take the occasional abuse when they forget you can hear, but that's fine. This is often where you hear how they feel about your (in your opinion) minor requests.

Their mixing desk could have XLR, jack or phono outputs so I need to have everything to cope with that. Although DI boxes are really used for isolation between line and mic level circuits, the pad switches allow you to cope with whatever level you get sent. I also carry a long mains cable with both 13 and 16 adaptor so that if available I can use mains power. I carry a headwork work light so I can read things in the dark. I also have both channel 38 and 69 radio receivers, so that if necessary I can take a direct feed fro radio mics in use. I find the Sennheisers with pilot tone off do a pretty good job of receiving most of the popular brands I come across - this 'stealing' of the mics comes in very handy. I'll also keep a transmitter and omni lav handy, which if I don't trust the in-house people, I put on the stage edge. Again - can come in very handy.

If I need specifics I'll contact the venue in advance and ask if there is any possibility that can have ......? Advance requests are often easily answered in the positive. As an example, a request for a comms line from the front to the back often results in a neatly coiled XLR where my front camera goes and the same at the rear. I then can plug in my own comms and the cameras can talk to each other. Ask for this thirty minutes before curtain up and it just isn't going to happen. I tend to have all sorts in the van, just in case, and you can make the lighting man happy if you give them a monitor and a feed - and very often on the comms you may even hear a request to the follow spots to drop in intensity a little when the lighting op can see how burnt out they make the picture. Having a close up picture to watch makes a sometimes dull show more interesting for them, and you being there becomes positive, rather than negative. It means a little more effort, a little more gear and some planning - but makes life so much easier.

In fact - for multiple cameras, I hate not having proper comms. Dance shows can be so much better when you don't have everyone on closeups or wides at the same time. I also hate the notion that the rear camera does perpetual full stage. With comms, you can offer up the best shot, and then when somebody says they have X, you can do Y! From time to time I see one firm who have a twin bar on one tripod. One camera then does wide, the other the interest - but from the same location, which I think always looks a bit iffy. One cameraman, two cameras = cheap production.

What a great thread! I've learned so much about audio on this sub-forum. I do video production on the side, building up my audio kit over the last two years, and one of the cardinal lessons I took to heart is never to rely on (or have an attitude of expectation from) a venue's dedicated audio person.

To wit: I recently shot a choral concert. I knew the venue had a sound guy, but I came with an entire audio kit to run sound separately. I had no idea what the FOH system was, and I didn't know the audio guy, and I'm paranoid. So, I show up early, set up my gear. Audio guy shows up late (!), opens equipment locker...empty! So he hauls his own gear from a van.

The venue has a digital piano that I want to record to a separate track. Audio guy wants to amplify it. I bring RCA splitters, hook up my DI box, and offer leads from the splitter to him. Nah, he says, don't need 'em. He plugs his lead into the piano's headphone jack. Whatever. Later I come back and discover there is NO sound from piano. Right, so the headphone jack wasn't a smart move. Turns out he needs my RCA splitter after all, and I'm happy to accommodate. Everything afterward goes off without a hitch, and audio guy is friendly and thankful.

It's a small example, I know, but it is one that reinforced my instinct to come totally prepared, offer help with humility, and be respectful of the audio guy.

thx for the tips so far, much appreciated, I realize that audio is like the Mount Everest for me and I haven't even start climbing it, I guess one step at a time will eventually get me there. :)

Here are some tips for those that asked “what should I have in my audio kit for AV integration?”

Fist, the answer is different for each person depending on your resorses. To keep this simple I will be referring to a simple one camera set up to record a ballroom presentation for corporate purposes. I am posting this for the guys that don’t have a lot of experience working in the AV environment but may find themselves doing so.

Begin with the end in mind and then put together your kit based on your needs.

Priority 1. To record all audio sources output from main mix into audience PA. This is often a feed going directly into the main camera. Levels are manually controlled, no AGC but I apply limiting with my own small mixer. Monitored at all times with headphones.

Priority 2. A backup recording of the same feed, with auto gain control on.

Priority 3. A backup recording of room PA NOT coming from the house mixer. A room mic, a horrible on camera mic if you have to, anything that will guarantee you get the PA audio if everything else fails. Record this backup in the best way available to you.

Priority 4. Sometimes I record “the room and audience” to be mixed in post. This is usually a shotgun mic. Under the stage facing the audience is a good placement if there is not a big sub there and no performers are going to be dancing on the stage. It is different for every room and show.

Chances are very high you are going to get a XLR feed with a line level signal. If your camera is mic level only, you will need a DI box, pad, or mixer to accommodate the conversion. Know your equipment and signal levels. How are you going to get from XLR to 1/8th mini if that’s all you have? I posted above in this thread about the basic survival kit I have on EVERY gig. But there is much more. Besides metal and plastic adapters I have most of those things in “patch cable adapters”. Those are usually a 36” cable with a different type of connector on each end. If you use hard adapters and end up with them sticking straight out the side of your camera you are asking for trouble in a multitude of ways, not the least of which is a damaged camera. And no audio guy wants some 6” tall series of adapters sticking up from an output on his board. Use the proper adapters and keep them to a minimum. DI boxes come in a variety of flavors and cost. A good, basic, passive box with XLR and 1/8” inputs and outputs is fine. And they usually have the always valuable ground lift switch.

What is coming out of that house mixer? One to ten mics. A variety of lavalieres, wireless handhelds, wired podium, isle mics etc. Keep in mind the average user of those mics will be an amateur that has little experience using them, with an occasional pro mixed in. That matters, your signals will be all over the place. There will also be computer audio and possibly video rolls from a variety of play back devices. These days you can count on someone playing some kind of audio clip downloaded from the internet no one has taken the time to normalize. Bottom line, smoking hot to barely audible signals! Ask the audio guy if there is a VOG mic. It will probably open the show and it will come in hot. Do not get hosed coming out of the gate. Also ask him if he is expecting any really hot clips and where they are in the show. He will know.

On his board he may give you an aux out, a monitor out, or a sub group out. His call, if he gives you an aux out make sure every pod gets turned up or you may find yourself missing an entire channel. No matter what you get he is going to set it and forget it. Make sure your levels are good before the show starts. I have the luxury of my camera guys working in concert with the audio guy because we are the same crew. If you are an outside vendor you will probably not get that kind of constant attention.

Your basic gear. And thank you to those above who posted theirs:

2 - 50 foot XLR cables, have a balanced XLR to ¼” adapter for them so you can handle either type of connection on his board outputs.
DI box, at least one
Mixer
Adapters and patch cables to suite your particular needs.
Ability to record a minimum of three separate tracks of audio listed above
Recording device other than the camera. I have a Marantz CF card deck with XLR inputs.
Good headphones.
Additional microphones to record PA or room noise. Record all tracks independently and mix in post.
That is the basic short list off the top of my head. Have fun and NEVER clip!

Several years ago, someone came to a forum with the complaint that after shows, attendees seemed to gravitate and stand right on his cables, preventing him from wrapping in a timely manner.

My suggestion? Two Words. Fart Spray.

Madhatter Magic Shop - FART SPRAY (http://madhattermagicshop.com/magicshop/product_info.php?products_id=87&gclid=CLyf89C9vrQCFQSg4Aod4iIAWQ)

Regards,

Ty Ford

I've had to be that cranky audio guy on more occasions that I care to count. Many of the comments here on how to get along are spot on.

A couple things, though... While there are a lot of idiot sound guys, remember there are just as many idiot video guys. Most sound guys will be happy to give a feed of some sort if given prior notice that it will be needed. It may be mono, it may be stereo. If it is stereo, though, don't just take one side- it is half the mix and you may as well not take any- it will sound just as good.

If you are doing a live cut and playback, make sure you mute the send when you are recording. I don't know how many times I've had some video person cause feedback because they are playing and recording at the same time and it is all going to the PA. There is nothing a FOH engineer will hate your more for than screwing up their sound in the room.

I will provide an output whenever I can, but I will not provide cabling. If you need to set up in the back of the room and I'm near the stage, you better have enough cable to make it to your rig. As pointed out in the original post- when folks show up right before the show, I do nothing. My job has essentially started as soon as people are in the room. I will not patch at that point. There is usually plenty of time in setup- if you are there.

Another suggestion of an inexpensive piece to have in the rig: Atty Stereo Attenuator | Pro Audio Products | A Designs Audio (http://www.adesignsaudio.com/atty-stereo-attenuator.htm) I keep at least one of these on me at all times. That way you can control the level of your feed without bugging the sound guy.

Great thread and I'm happy to see the number of people here that "get it."

--Ben

Many years ago, when I was doing a lot of work in the [dreaded] conference center arena [more like a circus than an arena], I was having trouble keeping all my cables.

I bought a big spool (probably 500 ft.) of shielded twisted pair, with a nice purple outer jacket. Made all my mic cables out of that. It wasn't a bright color, so it worked fine on stands, podiums, etc. But nobody had the stones to pick it up and walk off with it, and it did wonders for my inventory control.

It's hard to apply that concept to every piece of gear... I just offer it for what it's worth (and as general commentary on the "wild west" mindset that sometimes prevails).

Reminds me of when I was still working (in the Test Instrumentation department of Ford's UK product development center). One of our engineers got a decimal place wrong, and orded three kilometers of low temperature 5 amp three core. It was only half used up when I retired eight years ago. Being low temperature is wonderfully soft and flexible.

For UK readers this is a similar stereo XLR attenuator although having an ART isolation box or DI as well will also be useful as it will allow you to do a lot more.

IMG Stage Line ILA100 XLR Passive Stereo Volume Controller (XLR version) | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IMG-Stage-Line-ILA100-XLR-Passive-Stereo-Volume-Controller-XLR-version-/180972471023)

As for DI boxes I use these Stagg ones, they are cheap as chips and offer stereo or dual mono operation.

Stagg SDI-ST 2 Channel Passive DI BOX + Mono/Stereo SW | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stagg-SDI-ST-2-Channel-Passive-DI-BOX-Mono-Stereo-SW-/271120231384?pt=UK_MusicalInstruments_Other_Pro_Audio_Equipment&hash=item3f20066bd8)

They are also transformer isolated and you can lift the ground/earth on each channel as well.

If you are doing a live cut and playback, make sure you mute the send when you are recording. I don't know how many times I've had some video person cause feedback because they are playing and recording at the same time and it is all going to the PA. There is nothing a FOH engineer will hate your more for than screwing up their sound in the room.

That's why my playback component TO the FoH mixer is always on a completely separate mixer at my end than his send to me...

Great catch, Benjamin.

This has got to be one of the most interesting threads I have ever read on this forum. Particularly interesting because this is the field that I work in. I travel to around 40 or more shows a year in venues in the U.S. and Canada.
I am the video guy, not the audio guy. I fly everywhere so I don't have the luxury of carrying cables and all the gadgets you guys speak of.

I'm shocked to see that the thread doesn't include much talk about the client? The most important element in ensuring that I have everything that I need to ensure that my client has a successful show.

Before each show the client, myself and the A/V and house staff have a conference call, because we are all in different cities and can't meet face to face. The key is to remember that A/V company and myself have a common client that is footing the bill for both of us. On that call we identify all that takes place in the show. We have an assistant taking notes during the call. We establish names, positions and responsibilities up front, with a list of show day contact numbers and email addresses. What the A/V and house guys know from that call is everything that I need to be a success for the client. They (house) know here and what distance to place my riser. A/V knows that they run a mic or line level feed to that riser. We usually request a riser no more then 50ft from the stage. Not always possible., But we will learn that from the call in advance, as we have the house folks on the call as well, with floor diagrams.
After the call is complete, within an hour the call notes are compiled and an email is sent to the client and everybody else is cced on that email. One week before the show that email is sent again. Everybody knows in advanced who is providing what. I keep that email in my pocket in case myself or the A/V people have a memory lapse. Rarely ever had to use it. I did have one really ugly incident with the head A/V guy at a huge show over something they were supposed to provide. The guy was dead wrong. But I allowed myself to be provoked and totally unprofessional. That has not, and will never happen again. I see this guy on lots of shows. We resolved our differences and are the best of friends now.
I typically fly in a day before the show and meet everybody and huddle up with key people and introduce myself to the crew. If any problems arise now is the time to work it out. I look at myself and the A/V people as being on the same team with the same goals, a successful show for OUR client.

What I carry is minimal. I carry 2 10' XLR cables just in case you move the riser a foot or two left or right from where my feed was dropped. I carry one DI , 2 turnaround cables and one attenuator. (I do think it's good advice to carry the kit that a lot of guys mentioned...I just don't). All of my cameras have XLR's and can take line or mic levels.

Aside from that I find that most AV guys are professionals and are as invested in doing a great job just as I am. I always treat the guys with respect and help them out where I can. Another thing to remember is to forget all the bad things you heard about A/V guys. Maybe not all of them, but most of them have forgot more about audio then you and me will ever know.
And remember, 15 minutes to you is just that. 15 minutes to a A/V guy is an eternity. So when they say they will have it for you in 15 minutes and it's 30 minutes to show time, just relax.
Al

I do five camera concert shoots pretty much exclusively.

I'm a video guy who started as an audio guy, so I know enough to get there ahead of the sound check, and often before any mics are plugged in. I carry my own cables (with TRS adaptors) and rarely encounter a situation where it is not possible for the audio operator to accommodate me. But I always have my own pair of mics to capture the audience and to fall back on if the mix doesn't work.

The most useful tool I have is a tiny Rolls mixer, so I can pad down or boost their feed, and not have to ask them for anything during the show. Between that, the audience mic pair and the camera mics, I'll always be able to make something work.

Chris,

Very good approach! I use my Sound Devices 442 mixer for that, for several reasons. It sounds great and is well protected due to very nice input and output transformers. It has a very nice limiter that prevents accidents.

One never knows how a console is gainstaged. I can switch from mic to line input with the flick of a finger and use the 442 coarse and fine gain controls to give the camera what it wants.

Sometimes I use the 442 as a final stage, just for it's sound and limiters. Did that last month on a talk show mockup on a very big soundstage. All extemporaneous talk. We did the best we could to damp the reverb. But it was a green screen shoot and those green wall are hard and bounce the sound around a lot. I used a Shure FP410 automixer to close each mic when not being spoken into, which helped. From the FP410 to the 442 and then out to three cameras.



Regards,

Ty Ford

In my day job I work as an Account Manager for an AV company. Reading the scenario described above made me want to pop an alkazeltzer. I always show up on Day 1 of the event, if the video guy who's running late needs an audio feed I make sure it gets done. If I have to roll-out the cable myself I will. At the end of the conference/event I am the one making the phone call to the meeting planner. The last thing I want to hear is for client to tell me that the video guy did not get an audio feed, your guys were not helpful, the video was important to us. I can't tell the planner, sorry the guys were a bit cranky coz they they did a 15 hour set-up the night before, they were busy attending to the key note speaker, your video guy was late. Do I want to kill the videoguy? Yes. But I would want to be the one telling the planner when I make the phone call " hello meeting planner, 30 minutes before the show started, your camera guy came asking for an audio feed, we made it happen. I believe this was never mentioned during the precon meeting.Next time let us know in advance if you plan to videotape the event or better yet ask the camera guy to come in an hour early. Btw when's your next event?"

No offense meant, just want you guys to see the Account Manager's perspective.