I plug my Giant Squid lav into a Zoom H2 and then use the headphone out to an XLR adapter to my Panasonic HMC150. I have the Zoom set to high gain and have my camera gain maxed. Even so, I often have to add gain in post, so I have very little control. I wish I could skip the Zoom altogether, Thoughts?

You seem to be presenting two different issues. First is the curious case of the low signal levels, and second is your desire to skip the Zoom H2.

As for the second (eliminating the intermediate equipment, i.e. the Zoom H2), you could use a simple device to adapt the 3.5mm plug-in power connector from your Giant Squid mic to the conventional XLR inputs on your camcorder. Naint makes a variety of adapters like this: Naiant - Inline Devices (http://www.naiant.com/naiant/inlinedevices.html) (bottom of the page).

However, the first issue (the low signal levels) seems like a bigger problem that will unlikely be remedied by skipping the H2, In fact, it will probably be worse. How are you using the microphone? What are you recording the sound of? How do you know the Giant Squid microphone isn't just malfunctioning? Do you have any other microphones that you can use to substitute for troubleshooting purposes?

I plug my Giant Squid lav into a Zoom H2 and then use the headphone/line out to an XLR adapter to my Panasonic HMC150. I have the Zoom set to high gain and have my camera gain maxed. Even so, I often have to add gain in post, so I have very little control. I wish I could skip the Zoom altogether, Thoughts?

Most likely it's a mis-wired cable from the Zoom to the camera. The headphone/line out is an unbalanced stereo TRS with left on tip, right on ring, common ground on sleeve. An XLR input is balanced mono with signal hot on pin 2, signal cold on pin 3, ground on pin 1. The typical TRS to XLR adapter wires tip to pin 2, ring to pin 3, sleeve to pin 1. When you use it in the manner you stated, you put the left channel on pin 2, right channel on pin 3. In a balanced input circuit pin 3 is phase inverted and mixed with pin 2, meaning you're inverting your right channel and mixing in with the left to produce a partial cancellation of much, if not most, of the signal.

You also have a levels mismatch. The Zoom's line out is a consumer line level, nominally -10dBv. The camera's XLR line input expects closer to a pro line level, wanting a nominal 0dBu. Combining a lower than nominal signal with the cancellation....l.

What function does the Zoom perform in your workflow? Are you using it to actually record your sound double system or are you using it as a kind of kludgy mic adapter/mixer while the camera records actual production sound?

Is your Giant Squid lav one of the battery powered models or does it need plug-in power? What connector is on its cable?

Yes, I think Mr. House called it correctly. I agree that the connection between your Zoom headphone and the camcorder mic input is almost certainly wired improperly for what you are trying to do.

However you didn't mention what the levels are indicating on the Zoom? If you are not clipping on the Zoom even at full gain, then there still might be something wrong with the microphone or the way you are using it.

I watched a Curtis Judd review of the Giant Squid omni lav just yesterday, where he compared it to the Audio Technica ATR3350, and he spoke about the former having appreciably more output than the ATR3350, so I’m guessing you’d expect to see a decent signal into the Zoom H2

Sound for Video: Best Cheap Lav Mic - YouTube

Wow, guys, thanks!!

From the YouTube video it sounds like my Giant Squids are okay. He was using a different Zoom, but with great results. (I have four of them, so that's nice to hear! I've also tried all of them)

>What function does the Zoom perform in your workflow?
Until I learned what you know, it was a go-between to power the squid lav for wireless in-studio talking head.

>Are you using it to actually record your sound double system or are you using it as a kind of kludgy mic adapter/mixer while the camera records actual production sound?
Kludgy. Although I get a better signal if I record to an SD on the Zoom and sync in post.

>Is your Giant Squid lav one of the battery powered models or does it need plug-in power?
No Battery.

>What connector is on its cable?
It's all 3.5 until it hits the 3.5/XLR adapter.


So I could forget the camera connection and just record to the Zoom or I could get a Naiant adapter as a go between. I'm not opposed to a higher dollar system ( <$500 ), though I'm not interested in wireless.

You guys are so kind.

...
>What connector is on its cable?
It's all 3.5 until it hits the 3.5/XLR adapter.


So I could forget the camera connection and just record to the Zoom or I could get a Naiant adapter as a go between. I'm not opposed to a higher dollar system ( <$500 ), though I'm not interested in wireless.

You guys are so kind.

Actually was asking it the mic cable was terminated in a 3.5 mono TS, 3.5 stereo TRS wired so the mic signal would go the both left and right channels in the recorder, 3.5 TRS wired mono with the mic signal appearing on the left channel only, or TRS wired for Sennheiser wireless.

That Naiant PFA adapter mic ought to work out okay but you still need to know whether to get the mono TS jack or the stereo TRS jack.

It's stereo. I'm not sure why it's stereo. Here's a pic:

http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com/gs/patchcord%20scans/Neutrik_NTP3RC-B.jpg

It's stereo. I'm not sure why it's stereo. Here's a pic:

http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com/gs/patchcord%20scans/Neutrik_NTP3RC-B.jpgAnd if you record in your Zoom, does the mic signal appear on both the left and right channels or just on the left channel?

I use the mono setting in the Zoom menu.

I use the mono setting in the Zoom menu. If you used the stereo setting what would you get? I\m trying to figure out if the ring on that plug is connected to the tip so the mic signal goes to both the left and right channels when plugged into a stereo input (like with the stereo plug on the mono Rode Videomic) or if the ring is unconnected (or grounded as it would be if set up for a Senn G2 wireless) and the mic's signal goes only to the tip and thus to the left channel only.

As I recall, the Zoom sums both stereo inputs to both channels, regardless whether anything is plugged-in or not, so noise would be added if only one channel was plugged in.. It does not have a 'single track' mono-file mode like the Tascam and Marantz.

Yes, I tested it and stereo does the same as mono, which makes me wonder why I bother changing it! :oP

Dana,

Here's a very specific question which I think nobody has asked.

If you connect only the mic to the H2, set the H2 to record in stereo, set the gain to high (as you indicate you've been doing), and then make a recording on the H2... how are the levels?

Specifically, where do they peak on the H2 meters, while recording?

And if you then play back that file directly, where do the levels peak while playing back?

Interesting question. So the levels might peak on my zoom and not quite peak in Final Cut (or vice versa)?

I usually have good success at weddings laving both the groom and officiant on high. If the officiant peaks (which is rare) the groom's mic will get him at a good level, and if that fails I have a third Zoom (sans lav) on the PA at low gain.

Dana,

If that was supposed to be an answer to my question, I'm afraid I didn't get it. You're confusing me by talking about various people, and apparently several Zooms.

Originally you asked about plugging one particular [Giant Squid] mic into one H2 (or so I thought). And you then plugged that Zoom into your camera. Is that what you were asking?

If so... then if you plug THAT mic into THAT Zoom, and set that Zoom to record in stereo (without having the camera connected)... how are the levels on the Zoom?

I realize you might need to set up a short test to do this, as I'm not sure whether you've ever tried this in the past without the camera. But the answer should be pretty simple. I would expect either (1.) the levels on the Zoom are fine in this case, or (2.) even without the camera, the levels on the Zoom are very low.

I would expect that the levels in FCP are the same as what you observe while recording, but I want to confirm that also.

If your answers are even a bit more specific, that wouldn't hurt. "The levels on the Zoom peak at around -6dB, and the levels in FCP are the same" or something like that.

Could you please perform a test (if necessary) and give me a specific answer? That will help greatly with a diagnosis of your problem.

Thanks Greg. I will do that. I was just clarifying your question. Not sure why I rambled on about my setup. Posted too late at night.

>I would expect either (1.) the levels on the Zoom are fine in this case, or (2.) even without the camera, the levels on the Zoom are very low.

2. Even without the camera, the level is lower than I feel it should be. I have several Zooms and several Squids, and get the same result. It's "acceptable", but seems odd to have to be on high gain on the Zoom just to hear a talking head with a lav. Am I right to believe that by having it on high gain means quality loss in the same way that increasing gain in Final Cut means quality loss?

Dana,

If I understand this correctly, even without the camera, the level from the GS mic is lower than the level from your other mic(s). If that's the case, then there is something happening beyond what I had imagined.

I still don't rule out the problem that Steve House envisioned... I suspect the same thing. We can come back to that.

But I'm still curious about the GS mic -> stereo Zoom test. On your test track, roughly what was the level of the loudest peaks? (expressed either in % of full scale, or in dB below full scale)

High gain on the Zoom does not necessarily mean quality loss. The issue is signal/noise ratio. No easy way for me to say "yeah" or "nay" unless I can hear/see a bit of the file.

So... can you possibly post a small, unaltered section of the latest test file? Thanks for taking the extra trouble...

Here it is:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/arxwlkt1hcq1t16/l6kP1QulHu

It peaks at 100%, it just seems like it should peak more on high gain.

Thanks!

"It peaks at 100%, it just seems like it should peak more on high gain"

- I only see/hear handling and other (unknown) noise hits approaching or reaching full scale. Dialog is down around -25dBFS, w/ preamp and acoustical borne ambient noise around -45dB, which includes a LF hum.. ground loop; cable; power supply? Though a HP filter could attenuate that some.

It seems like a quiet room. I've got a computer running in the closet with the door shut. The closet has a fan also.

Is the dialogue where you would imagine it to be?

What would you suggest?

I concur with Rick Reineke about the levels and noise.

It's a strange file. I would guess that it's several different takes all scoped together into one file; certainly something changes drastically from time to time.

At the beginning there is just a lot of broad-spectrum noise. That could be a mix of preamp noise and air movement. (I note a peak around 3700 Hz, which might be an acoustical peak from the air noise source or from the mic.)

Beginning at 5:43 there is significant 60Hz power line hum in addition to the above noise. The power line noise disappears after all the banging and crashing at 9:20.

Then, starting at 18:22, there is a huge amount of low frequency noise... apparently acoustical noise (motors, refrigerator, etc.???) in addition to the ever-present broad-spectrum noise. And I note that the dialog at the end of the file (19:18 to 19:24) is about ten dB louder than the rest of the file. Peaks here are about -10 dB, the rest of the file is about -20 dB or lower.

I assume the lav is properly clipped onto the talent, is that correct?

So Dana: what's different about the last six seconds of the file? Why is the dialog much hotter here (and also more room noise)?

And one more question: Where is the H2 recording level set?

I'm so grateful for you guys!

Here's the video after editing:
Vee Split Screen Interview - YouTube

It seems odd to need to filter such a quiet room, but I guess that's what I'll need to do. Once factor I didn't consider is that the Zoom is plugged in, whereas I usually use batteries. I also didn't use a broadcast loop since I was sitting still. I guess I'll need to be doing that. Turns out I do move!

I was doing several takes and left it going to have one less thing to remember. The switch setting was high gain. I don't use any of the menu compression features. I do use mono and select 48Khz at 16 bit. The zoom lay on the desk.

I'm not sure why the last six seconds are louder. It must have been closer.

The switch setting was high gain. I don't use any of the menu compression features. I do use mono and select 48Khz at 16 bit. The zoom lay on the desk.

I'm not sure why the last six seconds are louder. It must have been closer.

I know you've already said the mic gain was set to "high." But what about the record level setting?

Was the Zoom on the desk for all the different takes? There had to be some change in what was turned on/off in the room, because the AC power hum is present only in parts of the file.

As to your comment about "closer"... what must have been closer to what? That take sounds drastically different from the rest. The dialog level is higher. The room noise is much louder, and has a much different frequency spectrum compared to the rest of the file.

I would suggest that someone ought to be monitoring on headphones whenever you do any recording, and you'd catch this stuff when it happens. But even so, don't you hear the difference in playback? Something changed drastically when you recorded that last, short take.

(BTW, not quite responsive to your question, but relevant to your YouTube file: how did you capture the harpist's end of the interview? I notice the level jumps up and down a lot on the edit cuts. Also, I seem to hear some artifacts on her voice. I'm just wondering how her end was recorded and how you received that audio.)

I'm not sure what you mean by Record Level setting. The closest thing I have is Record Mode. (48/16)

The Zoom was in the same place. The only thing I can think of is that I had bumped the switch to the low position and caught it at the end. It just seems to happen too often. I definitely need monitoring -- both for audio and video.

The harpist had the same setup. I interviewed her at a wedding in a noisy place. I recorded my questions later and creatively edited it all together as a faux satellite interview.

BTW, in the last few seconds was the noise and ambience acceptable?

I'm not sure what you mean by Record Level setting. The closest thing I have is Record Mode. (48/16)

I don't have an H2, but I've downloaded the online manual for reference.

P.15 talks about setting the mic gain switch (which you've said you always set on HI).

P.16 talks about setting the Recording Level (after you go into record/standby mode). The manual says there is a setting range of 0 to 127. That's what I'm asking: where do you have this set? What number?

Or do you have some variety of H2 that doesn't have this setting (which seems extremely unlikely to me).

Oh my GOSH! I've been through the manual but I've never seen that! I'm set at 100, as is all my other Zooms.(I'm sure that's the default. That's huge, though, as I'm often recording PA speakers and low is not low enough, so I have to move the stand. Thank you!

So my ideas to improve sound:
1. Have it monitored, adjusting settings as needed to get the right level.
2. Shut down my Mac Pro, even though it's in the closet.
3. I'm thinking that with my lav being monitored it would make more sense to use my H2n for it's dial control.
4. Put up some acoustic foam on the wall I'm facing at least.

For what I'm doing, it sounds like you're saying I've got the right equipment, but that the thing is how I use it. Are there any post processing tricks I should employ beside hum removal?

When all else fails, read the manual. !!!

If you need more gain when you're recording the GS lav, now you can try the Record Level setting.

Yes, make the room as quiet as possible.

You don't need to spring for acoustic foam unless you like the look. Moving blankets are better than nothing. Carpet on the floor can help somewhat. Any absorption in the room will lessen room reflections. But that's not the same as eliminating noise.

I still want to know why the last six seconds of the audio file you posted sounded so much different from the rest of the file... much higher voice level, much higher noise level, entirely different noise spectrum. (And why some takes had a little bit of AC power line hum, and other takes did not.) You need to identify and eliminate these variables, up front, before you do more recording. Connect a good set of headphones (e.g. Sennheiser HD-280 pro) to the H2, play with gain, play with low cut filter, move the recorder and wiring around looking for hum, etc. etc. etc. It can take some time, but it's well worth it. Your life will be a lot easier if you start with clean tracks.

Now, to come back to your original level question. If you feed the mic into the H2, and adjust the H2 for correct recording level (now that you know how), then feed the H2 output to the camera, can you adjust things so the level on the camera matches the level on the H2? Or is the level on the camera significantly lower than the level on the H2?

The H2 has a three-position low, med., high Gain switch (L-M-H) on the side and a recording volume control, via the front panel up/down' arrows" as I recall the record volume reads from 0 to 127, so in theory, a setting of of 70 to 100 should be a good initial setting to start, then set the 'gain switch' to achieve voice peaks of around -12dBFS or so on the H2's meter.
I'm not familiar with GS mic, if it needs external 'Plug-in power' that must be activated via the H2's software menu. If it has it's own battery, it should be disabled.

The OP has always been aware of the mic gain switch.

I have recently made him aware of the Recording Level setting (0 - 127).

Presumably he has had "plug in power" turned on, since he has been getting audio out of his mic, as per the sample that you've heard. (He said earlier that the mic did not have its own battery.)

Yes, the lav doesn't work without 'plug in power' on. The camera level is the same as the H2 when maxed out. The recording level has always been on 100.

Once I have a pure and vibrant sound, do most editors add sweeteners or leave it raw? (I use FCPX).