Hi Tom

I doubt whether they would blantantly stick on a label saying "Made in China/Phillipines/etc etc" but I just wondered if various modules are outsourced. I'm sure the actual cam is made in Osaka but I cannot understand the omissions!! The audio is mighty strange indeed. Even the 130/160 has auto/manual (in fact one for each channel too!!) Why on earth they omitted it is weird!! One would think..the HMC 40 audio works well, let's not mess with that and use it as it stands?

My 130 lenses were razor sharp too...absolutely pristine image BUT no wow factor ...it could of course just be my feeble brain not liking the "look" of the footage compared to the HMC camera ...maybe cos the image is a lot sharper?? One thing that also troubled me was on long shots in good light the distant background seemed to look "smudged" ...Again they could just be the Vimeo/YT compression ...large expanses of trees or grass seemed to be a little soft yet the foreground shots are absolutely magnificent ...someone on another forum mentioned that shots of people looked like their hair was spray painted on but there is certainly none of that in Tim's clips even at 24db.

Gosh, I hope you guys are wrong about the no auto audio for the XLR channels ... maybe if you set the ALC on and leave the level at 50% ..it will handle super loud music with an external XLR mic???

Chris

i've been following the discussions on this camera for a while now as i need a camera to replace my pd170 and complement my 7D, one that is good for both weddings and corporate stuff (and cheap as the economy here is f****d!).
tim, thanks for testing the camera!
i have some questions about the sound:
if i have a mic attached can i record on 2 separate channels with different levels? this is my usual method when recording weddings. i have one channel which i monitor as best i can and another which i have set a fair bit lower so if there are any sudden increases in volume i always have usable sound. will that work in an ac90?
can i have the camera mic on one channel in automatic and an attached mic on another channel in manual?
thanks

Hi Andrew

It seems so far like any input on the AC-90 is manual only (but you can have ALC on which supposedly stops it when the signal goes over a default limit) As with all Panny cameras you have independent control of channel one and channel two using the gain controls on the camera. It seems sadly that auto can only be used on the internal mic.

Chris

cheers chris!
so my system should work.
my only real fears with the camera are the painted hair/smudgy background (which seems to appear in some YT and vimeo videos) and filming outside in the summer (nds very much needed here in madrid)

Hi Andrew

I'm being an optimist now but that might just be YT processing?? The simplest way is to ask one of the kind folks here to give you a 30 sec clip that shows the smudginess online and test the AVCHD clip for yourself. It still gives a nice picture and apart from the audio issue, it's brilliant value for money!

Chris

cheers chris!
so my system should work.
my only real fears with the camera are the painted hair/smudgy background (which seems to appear in some YT and vimeo videos) and filming outside in the summer (nds very much needed here in madrid)

Wouldn't worry about that, it's probably the way it has been transcoded, I would worry more about the resolution difference between the 7d and the ac90, the panny will be a lot sharper and mixing both will show, I have the same issue with my cx730's and my 550d and my sony is not as sharp as the ac90.

Hey Noa

I'm interested to know why you have decided to look at the EA-50 as opposed to the AC-90 since it's pretty much double the price and probably even more if you consider than you should have something like a 25mm lens F1.8 at least to take advantage of low light at receptions ..I tend to shoot mostly on wide on my Panny which is 40mm so I figured a 25mm would give you around 40 with the crop factor and then the 2X zoom means you could cover all events.

Your dislikes and likes on both cameras would be useful to Don Bloom as well as he is searching for PD150 replacements.

Chris

Chris et all;
this is a fascinating thread. Some love, some not quite as much.
The thing that concerns me about the AC90 is the audio. The thing that concerns me about the NEX-EA50 is the lack of NDs.
Price aside, those are 2 very major concerns for me. However, both can be overcome of course. Ride the audio levels on the 90 or buy at least 1 ND glass for the 50. I like the form factor of the 50 but already have a fully workable technique for using small form factor cameras.
I am changing my mind like a flag being blown around in the cold Chicago wind. One direction to the other. I have NEVER been so confused about a camera.
I am at the point that I need to stop thinking and make a decision. As they say "When you think about things, all the blood rushes to your head and you get cold feet". HOWEVER, even at the price point of $1850 (B&H price for the AC90) I don't feel that I want to spend that or any amount on a camera that isn't going to do what I need and want it to do so unfortunately at this time I need to continue my thought process and try to find something that would difinitively lead me to one or another.
I'm losing what little hair I have left!

O|O
\--/

Don, you have to consider that the build in ND's in the ac90 don't cover all incoming light, Barry Green made a video in the dominican republic and to keep the iris at max f6.4 he had to use shutter speeds of 1/500 and 1/1000 and he recommends a good three-stop ND filter for bright outdoor shots.

Chris. I have not decided yet :) The ac90 would complete my cx730's so I"d have 2 small wideangle camera's that are very good in automode and one camera with sufficient manual controll to film the civil wedding and the ceremony, both events require at least 2 camera's and no way I would think of using a large sensor camera for those parts. Since 1 or 2 camera run unattended I need a large dof, sharp from beginning to end and they need to be able to record for a longer period. Since I cannot afford mistakes here I need a camera I can rely on, even unattended and a regular small sensor videocamera does that better then a dslr when you are shooting alone.

The past weeks I have been doing these parts of the day with my 2 cx730's and if time allowed a 3rd xr520 and that worked well also, just in some occasions I want to quickly adjust focus and that takes time which I hate about these camera's causing me to miss moments or have shaky footage when I mess around on the touch screen. So for that reason a ac90 and just one cx730 would be perfect as well.

I only worry a bit about the ac90 sensitivity, sure it can push to 30db (equalling to 9db on a fx1000) without much grain but my cx730 can match a fx1000 at 21db and there have been several occasions I have to film at very high gain values (between 18 to 24db gain) to get good exposed footage. Here the ac90 could cause issues in keeping up.

Another thing is that those small sensor camera's limit me somewhat in the type of work I can do, my small sonys are perfect at weddings doing the civil part, the ceremony and recording long speeches. I even prefer using the cx730 over my dslr when I have to make wide angle shots of buildings because they don't produce moire like a dslr does with fine bricks or rooftiles.

But for bride prep, the reception and the evening part it's a DSLR, there I have the time to set up and prepare my shots and I can play around with shallow dof as much as I want, I always try to prevent mixing dslr footage with my cx730 as the dslr footage looks too different, it just looks more pleasing, even with less resolution. Color also "pop" more and I think that combined with a bit shallow dof makes the footage stand out more and can give that "wow" feeling you can't get with a small sensor camera.

That being said, I don't think I would be using the nex ea50 at a wedding, it's too big to carry around and there is a reason why I have 3 handicams and 2 dslr's; they all fit inside one backpack. I have been able to handle my weddings the past weeks, with some frustration, but I have been able to do multicam shoots, work with a steadicam, a slider and use that nice shallow dof when needed and that by myself and in a very stressfull environment where I have to act quick to get my shots with often only one chance to do it right. So I figured, I did manage, my clients don't mind me carrying a small handicam, they like what they get so why add another ac90 to my arsenal making it even more difficult to carry around due to it's size, even if it's not "that" big.

I mainly wanted a camera that will replace my xh-a1 so something with more controll that I can use on other type of work where I need that controll and the nex-50 just, but only just, fits my current budget. I allready have a set of lenzes (a samyang 14 f2.8, a 35 f1.4, a 85 f1.4, a 10-22 canon lens and a 90 f2.8 macro lens) so with a adapter I"m good to go and I have several sony batteries that still seem to fit the nex ea50.

The images I have seen from teh nex ea50 look very filmlike which can open up some other opportunities outside weddings, like corporate films because you doin't show up there with a camera that fits in your palm, it seems to be a very allround camera that bridges the gap between dslr and videocamera in terms of use like have a servo zoom lens, autofocus (though not that perfect) but it has most features you find back on a pro videocamera but with dslr technologie and exchangable lenzes to add some "wow factor to your image if used right.

I also was thinking about the BMC (as it's cheaper) but if you are honest you need to add up twice the purchasing price to get it really productionready and then we are not even talking about the heavy workflow if you do raw. The nex ea50 has I think a very competitive price considering what it offers, it's not perfect but no camera is in that prize categorie.

I"m hoping to make a decision by the end of this week, I was blinded a bit by the cheap price of the ac90 but after thinking about it a while it doesn't add enough value since it will not enable me to charge more when I will be using it at a wedding, but a nex ea50 might open some other doors that do provide in extra income, sometimes you have to spend money to make money :).

Since this is the first camera I've own that has XLR, I've have worked around it by using digital recorders. The H4n has been a blessing at receptions micing the speaker stack with mics and also have the onboard mics that capture ambient. Quick and easy setup all on one stand. Pluraleyes syncs everything perfectly. But I can see where the lack of Auto audio for the XLR input could be a deal breaker for those that use it.

Hi Guys

I am just as confused as is Don but luckily we both don't NEED a new camera right now, before the weekend scenario. I can happily carry on with my current setup and ignore the fact that if I had the funds I would probably buy a couple of AC-90's and a couple of EA50's !! I also have to be very cautious after my episode with the AC-130's .... they simply had issues I just couldn't work around but one could probably work around the audio issue. Shucks for people gyrating on the dance floor I could use the internal mic on auto anyway. However I'm still not 100% convinced about the IQ of the 90....closeup shots are really awesome but go to a medium shot and the FX1000 that Tim used produces a nice picture. Then again Tim might have under-exposed quite drastically ...I'm not sure what a scene setting for autoiris at -7 would equate to in stops but that might also be why I felt the wedding shots had no wow!!

Use the XLR's Tim, it's nice to be able to monitor your audio as it's happening rather than find out that the record volume was too low. I have a Tascam DR-05 which does a neat job ... I have yet to try out the idea but I was thinking of leaving it on the altar with an AKG boundary mic attached to grab audio from "roaming" priests!

Keep the thread going...Tim???? Take your scene file parameter back to zero for autoiris after filming, say a person indoors and then film them again and see if there is a big difference in exposure.

Yeah Don my hair is getting preety darn thin too...I was almost ready to pounce on an AC-90 before the audio disclosure. I think let Christmas run it's course and see what the new year holds?

Chris

Ok Chris, I tested the Auto audio with built in mic set to 5.1 Surround - bass setting +3db.

At the begining of the test the receivers level is at normal listening level after 10 seconds or so I begin to turn it up until the ornaments started shaking of the christmas tree.

Take a listen and tell me what you think.

AC90 Audio Test - YouTube (http://youtu.be/zSkRQG_YgfM)

Tim, the audio sounded pretty good coming from the computer speakers but honestly I would probably never use the internal mic. I either use my Hypercaroid, a shotgun OR a combination of hyper and wireless OR in the case of a ceremony 2 wireless. I'll assume the audio would be as good as what I heard.

Chris, yeah I really don't need to change but I think it's time to step up to a tapeless workflow. Since our last "talk" about what we're going to do, I've 99% nailed down a client that well frankly would probably be unhappy with my coming in with a small form factor no matter how good it is. I know that sounds dumb but there are some corporate clients that just feel no matter what they pay they expect a "big" camera even though they know in their hearts that most of todays small form factor camera produce great images. So now I'm back to looking at the Sony. I've solved the question of mounting my receiver and even the ND filter. I can manufacture a "U" shaped piece out of liteweight aluminum stock and get a couple of 4X6 ND filters that I can place into the channel when needed. I can attach it to the lens hood in such a way as to cover the lens and be out of the way at the same time. If I get the Sony I could also pick up an NX30 as a B cam for the weddings. More money!!!!! the good thing is that I already own enough battery's and chargers so as not to have to incure additional cost for that. However until this thing is 100% signed,sealed and delivered and we're past the first of the year, I'm just going to sit tight, not lose any sleep over it and perhapes start the new year out with a couple of new cameras. <sigh> I should have reitred last year! lol

Hi Tim

Yep that sounds ok but as Don says you really don't want to use an internal mic at weddings. Just for interest I wonder what would happen with an external mic on the XLR and the gain set to 50% and ALC on? Would the camera contain the level as the ornaments started to shake?? The only issue there would be in a loud setting you need to set the gain to suit with say, normal music, and then see if the cam can handle it when the volume goes up!!

Hey Don
That would be an easy solution ... sell the PD150's and quit and take up golf...then you don't have to buy new cameras...sadly some clients do expect "respect" too and taking in a dinky handicam just isn't going to cut it regardless of how good the footage is!! At weddings I get asked now and again about cameras but if I had domestics it might be an issue if a guest had one too...not really a big deal at weddings as you
can always tell them "it's not the size, it's how you use it..much like sex!!"

Bear in mind that when you zoom an EA50 the lens extends like a still camera so you cannot use a matte box so filters need to be at the end of the lens or far enough forward

UPDATE: Barry Green who is writing the book on the AC-90 confirms that there is no auto on the XLR's ..he suggests put the mic on Channel 2 then switch Channel 1 to read 2 and set on channel high and one low...seems a very amateur way for a pro camera but thems the breaks.


Chris

Chris, I assume the camera at receptions that is handling the audio from the wireless mics is on a tripod. The handheld camera doesn't need to have a better mic than the inboard does it, if your moving around it's not going to be useable anyway.

What does ALC stand for? Auto Level Control I thought. All my Yamaha DVR's have ALC and they handle levels very well.

I don't see how a shotgun mic configured for auto level is going to be ideal for everything that happens at a wedding and reception. Barry's tip for assigning input 2 to ch1&2 giving 2 level presets for mono tracks to choose between in post has an advantage. The swishing from auto level control is avoided.

And what about the product delivered to the bride and groom? Would they not prefer to have some surrounding ambiance? Let's say hypothetically the reception formals are over, the band is blasting, you're moving about trying to pick up quips with the shotgun mic from the guests. As I visualize this scenario, the auto level control is going up and down depending on where the camera is pointed.

Tim mentioned he uses a field recorder. Very smart. I wonder about the unused tools in the ac90's kit when we decide to use the shotgun mic. The internal mics are not just 5.1 surround, they are variable. The operator can select zoom mic or focus mic, the former adjusts the sound distribution with the lens zoom, the latter with the lens focus. That concept would seem brilliant for capturing the whispers not drowned by the band, yet maintain a three dimensional ambiance.

I think ALC in this case must be auto limiter control for clipping.

Thanks Tom, so "L" can mean Level or Limiter. That can be confusing....and it was.

Hi Tim

Yeah ALC is normally considered "auto level control" in the AC-90's case it's NOT..it's "auto limiter control"

At weddings I don't really have to fight loud music and voice at the same time..we are mainly recording dancing and it could be a slow quiet song or it might be AC/DC at full volume ... it really just ambient audio but I really do need auto audio for situations like that ... It's seems totally crazy that they "forgot" the auto/Manual switch on audio channels. I dunno about the limiters on the 90 but on the 130's I had they were very bad and simply clipped the signal (gave the waveform like an army haircut on the top side only) That was one of the reasons I sold them only after 3 months.

Chris

Then that's what I don't understand, why you would want to use a directional microphone for recording dancing, when it's just mono. Perhaps I'm missing the point. For filming the dance, and you were just trying to record the sound at the correct level, why wouldn't you just switch to the internal mic surround sound which has auto level. Is it that you don't want to record the room ambiance, trying to filter out everything more like a studio recording, or getting something straight from the mixing board, or more like a dubbed in sound? But yes, I don't understand why they would leave it out unless for cost saving.

Hi Tom

For me it's purely convenience. While the guests are having pre-dinner drinks I do interview with them and the Rode mic works very well here. I just then leave the Rode running for the rest of the evening...I never know when I just down to one camera (after speeches) if there might be an impromptu announcement so I get results with the Rode...on a 90 that would mean a hurried change on the camera to go back to the Rode from the internal mic and i'd probably miss the event.

I'm trying to do a painless changeover as my current cams are not even listed by the supplier anymore and at the same time try to avoid all the nasty issues that I encountered with the AC-130, some of which seem to have moved over to the AC-90

Weddings are another animal completely so quite often you DO need a camera that can point and shoot and set itself in seconds when the bride suddenly beckons to you and says "Film it, film it" ..for an event that might last 30 seconds you have no time to set up a camera..just turn on and hit record ..I guess that's why they call it run 'n gun? Obviously during ceremonies and such you do have time to go manual, focus accurately and set up a camera but the "on the spur of the moment" stuff needs full auto.

Chris

quite often you DO need a camera that can point and shoot and set itself in seconds when the bride suddenly beckons to you and says "Film it, film it"
Starting from receptions I shoot with dslr's but I have one cx730 in a bag the size of the camera attached to a belt at all times. If something unannounced happens I can wip it out and start filming in matter of seconds, it has gotten me footage I otherwise would have missed

Well I've been working on the ceremony footage and I can't believe how much better the 90 looks compared to the FX's.....much cleaner and a little sharper. The FX's have to be run -3 or -6db of gain to be that clean. I know the 90 was at 18db at times. I did have to brighten up the 90 footage because I under exposed. If I had gotten the exposure right it really would look even more amazing....of course I'm comparing it to 5 year old camera's. The only downside is when rendered down to standard def, the difference isn't that much, I can tell it's looks cleaner and sharper but my wife can't.

Hey Tim

I bet it looks a lot better! At -7 you would have been significantly under! I shot a wedding at -2 on the AC-130 and the whole thing looked really insipid. If you lift the gamma just a tad in post it will sparkle up the footage significantly!!

Maybe we will see a short clip of your results after post production?

Chris