http://www.sony.co.jp/SonyInfo/News/Press/201211/12-165


Looks like we now have a rough idea for pricing on the new cameras and accessories:

F55: $32k
F5: $19k
R5 Raw Recorder: $5.6k
OLED EVF: $6.3k
Regular EVF: $3.7k
7" LCD Screen: $5.1k
Olivine Batteries: $562
Raw Media Card Reader: $742
6 Lens Kit: $28k
3 Lens Kit: $15.6k

Interesting times indeed...

I'll take one of each please!

The F5 isn't really a replacement for the F3 in my estimation. F3 does what it was designed for and still great for most broadcast/ cable shoots. I will keep mine and use it for some time to come. Anyone else feel the same way?

F3 is a great camera and will continue to be for honestly a very long while, in fact for as long as there is HD.

The F5 however will give some shooters the higher bit rates they've been looking for without having to use ext. Recorders, cables, power solutions and requirements. Not to mention a cable-less RAW recorder for modest price.

Sony did it right, I have to say I'm thoroughly impressed.

If I had an F3, I wouldn't feel a desperate need to replace it unless 4k was a necessity.

If buying from scratch, I'd definitely go for the F5, not the F3. Inbuilt 50Mbs codec, better ergonomics, viewfinding etc, and possibility of 4k upgrade in the future.

I'll be moving over to F5 or F55 and its not so much for 4k as it is higher bit rate 2k with option to go 2k/RAW or 4k/RAW with simple add-on module.

Lets see how much AXS (pronounced "Access") and SxS Pro+ media costs first.

I will be upgrading to an F5/R5 but it will be interesting to see just how much the media required to record most of the higher bit rates will cost. XAVC at up to 100Mb/s can be recorded on to standard SxS cards, but all the higher frame rate and raw modes will require new media.

F3 still has a place, it's compact, one piece and if 35Mb/s is OK then very easy to use. Add on a Samurai or Gemini and it's an incredibly capable camera. The F3 is well suited to hand holding (as opposed to shoulder mount) and the lighter (and cheaper) batteries mean a smaller tripod can be used. The F5/F55 is significantly bulkier and fully rigged with the EVF and V-Lock batter a much heavier package. I have two F3's and while I well sell one, I may keep the other for portability. I'm not looking forward to going back to lugging a large V-Lock battery kit around the world with all the grief of having to carry the batts in my carry-on while the camera goes in the hold.

It will be interesting to see but I personally never look at media or power prices and exclude them from all my "camera evaluation" calculations. Mostly because I want a camera for it's feature-set and secondly usually with the number of batteries or size media you buy what you can afford at the time and grow from there.

I already own v-mount for my steadicam so am set. I expect 512GB to cost at least a couple thousand more or less.

Sony Japan | ƒjƒ…�[ƒXƒŠƒŠ�[ƒX | ‘½�ʂȃtƒH�[ƒ}ƒbƒg‚ɑΉž‚µ�A4K‰f‘œ�§�ì‚̉”\�«‚ð�L‚°‚éCineAlta 4KƒJƒ�ƒ‰‚ð”*”„ (http://www.sony.co.jp/SonyInfo/News/Press/201211/12-165)


Looks like we now have a rough idea for pricing on the new cameras and accessories:

F55: $32k
F5: $19k
R5 Raw Recorder: $5.6k
OLED EVF: $6.3k
Regular EVF: $3.7k
7" LCD Screen: $5.1k
Olivine Batteries: $562
Raw Media Card Reader: $742
6 Lens Kit: $28k
3 Lens Kit: $15.6k

Interesting times indeed...

I'm hoping the street pricing comes down a bit. The F3 is still a very good camera. I'll continue to wait a bit and see how this plays out.

Japanese prices converted to USD are still slightly higher than street prices in North America so I suspect we will see these even sligthly lower.

Needless to say, the prices are where I think many people had guessed or at least in that range.

Yes ... Dennis Japanese gear tends to be more expensive here compared to the States. Good prices however, can be had for used gear.

I also notice UK prices are slightly higher than North America, although haven't even bench marked it against Japan.

Canada where I live, is also usually a little higher than USA prices by 5-10%.

Alister, you mentioned you thought the F3 is usefull for being smaller, lighter and easier to hand hold then the F5. I see Sony lists 2.4 kg or about 5.5 lbs for the F3 body. I have used it rigged with a nikon lens, nanoflash, alphatron VF, Anton Bauer dionic to power everything, and a shape plate with handgrips. That rig turns out to be bigger than my F800 and quite unwieldy for hand held shooting. Do you really think the F5 is going to be worse? Anybody seen the weight listed for a basic F5 body?

Weight of the body only I've seen listed at 2kgs.

I think the F5/F55 body comes in at 2.5kg with the FZ-PL adapter attached. Then add on the heavy top handle, viewfinder bracket (which is robust but also heavy), viewfinder, v-lock adapter or R5 and your over 3.5kg. When I had a play with the F55 last week it did feel much heavier than my F3. But then as a minimum you will add another 0.5 to 1 kg for your batteries. So a basic ready to shoot F5/F55 without lens I think will come in around 1.5 to 2kg heavier than a bare F3, perhaps tipping the scales at 4 to 5kg and considerably bulkier.

Of course you can add shoulder rigs etc to either camera and make them as heavy as you wish, remember that there is no form of handgrip or shoulder pad on the F5/F55, this will have to be added for handheld.

I can fit my F3, lens adapters, a couple of DSLR lenses, two or three BP-U60 type batteries and the single channel charger in a regulation size airline carry on bag. You will be able to do the same with an F5/F55 body and similar lenses (I have already done this with an F55), but then where will you put the significantly bulkier V-lock battery kit. Especially considering that Li-Ion batts are not permitted in an aircraft hold.

Make no mistake the F3 and F5/F55 are very different propositions. My F3 works well on my Vinten 5AS tripod for most applications. The F55 was too heavy for the 5AS, I will be using my Vinten 100 with mine.

+1

In my quickie with the F55, camera was equipped with viewfinder, top handle, Olivine battery and 85mm Sony prime (old lens). Definitely heavier than my F3. I have an old Sachtler 15 and I am certain that Sachtler can handle the weight.

Ned

Heavier than a rigged up F3 Ned (i.e. cheeseplate, shoulder pad, recorder, evf etc.)? In many ways, I think it's less the weight of a rigged up F3 that's the problem, just the awkward distribution of that weight (and the form factor necessitated by sticking so many components on top of each other).

My rigged up F3 with Zacuto viewfinder, Pix240, Zacuto baseplate with rods and a Zacuto cheeseplate hanging off the back with Anton Bauer battery combined with the awkward ergonomics of the F3 makes for one unwieldy rig.

The F5/55 may be heavier owing to the construction of the camera but the ergonomics and layout are so much better. A big thing is the ability to hang a real battery on the back.

I am very happy with the feel of the NewF even rigged up.

Ned

Cheers Ned.

Like I said, you can throw as much stuff as you like on either camera. Many, many people don't use bulky rigs with their cameras nor do they use V-Locks and other bulkier batteries. I very often don't. I often use my F3 naked, or with just a Samurai/Gemini on a ball mount off the handle, both camera and recorder powered by a Swit BP-U style battery. Like this it is very portable, can be used handheld, with a mono-pod or with a small tripod.

The F5/F55 is much better ergonomically for shoulder mount applications, that's what it is designed for and Sony have done a good job. But you can't use an F5/F55 handy-cam style as you can the F3, you would need to add some form of hand grip and hand holding a heavier V-Lock powered camera would be tough.

I am not complaining about or criticising the F5/F55's ergonomics in any way, just pointing out that it is a very different proposition to an F3.

European prices for the F5 and F55 have now been released.


PMW-F5
S35mm CineAlta Camera - HD
15.340 Euro

PMW-F55
S35mm CineAlta Camera - 4K
27.804 Euro

AXS-R5
S35mm F-series External RAW Recorder
5.206 Euro

AXS-CR1
Access Card Reader
549 Euro

AXS-512S24
Access Card 512GB for AXS-R5 External Recorder
1.535 Euro

SCL-PK6/F
CineAlta PL Lens Pack (6 lenses)
19.895 Euro

SCL-PK3/F
CineAlta PL Lens Pack (3 lenses)
11.118 Euro

DVF-L700
7" LCD Viewfinder for F-series
4.113 Euro

DVF-L350
3.5" LCD Viewfinder for F-series
2.925 Euro

DVF-EL100
0.7" OLED Viewfinder for F-series
4.113 Euro

BP-FL75
Olivine Battery for F-series
470 Euro

BP-L90
Olivine Battery Charger for F-series
766 Euro

Street price seems even better in the UK - Sony PMW-F5 (PMWF5) Super 35mm Full HD 4K CMOS Sensor Compact CineAlta Camcorder - Records HD/2K on SxS memory plus 16-bit RAW 2K/4K output (http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/index.php?t=product/sony_pmw-f5)

£10,295 (excl VAT) for an F5 body, which I suspect is a bit less than many were expecting?

It's not unusual to see a 20% discount over the list price, so CVP's price is about right based on the list prices. It is a little less than I was expecting so a complete kit, F5, L350, R5 will come in at about £16k.

Wow.. I may be pretty close on my guess in $$. Interesting.

From Sony:

The suggested U.S. LIST pricing for the new products, planned to be available in February, are:

• PMW-F5 CineAlta 4K Camera $19,400
• PMW-F55 CineAlta 4K Camera $34,900
• AXR-R5 RAW Recorder $6,300
• AXS-512S24 512Gb Memory Card $2,100
• AXS-CR1 card reader $660.00
• DVF -EL100 OLED Viewfinder $5,800
• DVF-F350 3.5” LCD Viewfinder $3,800
• DVF-L700 LCD viewfinder $5,000
• SCL-PK6/F PL mount six lens package $24,600
• SCL-PK3/F PL mount three lens package $13,600

Source: PRICING - Sony Community (http://community.sony.com/t5/F5-F55/PRICING/m-p/37285#U37285)

As I've said on the other board as well as in an article being published Thurs AM, I think this pricing represents excellent value for features offered.

I'm just disappointed that I didn't get the release earlier as promised because I wanted to break the story ;(

Ned

Wait a minute, one price is missing here, uncompressed 4K SONY RAW output via 4 x SDI port.

Stewart Chong
Founder / RAWolutionist
RAW Digital Cinema
Wow Holdings
HK - CHINA
Skype:wowholdings
FB: stewart chong

With the f-65 sony offered a few bundled discount options, has anyone hear about them doing that with the f55?

Nothing yet on bundles. But the pricing has only been released within the last 12 hours of this posting.

Hopefully we will get some clarity over the next few weeks.

A thought which has just occurred to me, is that with the F5 we could for the first time see a large format camera which could take substantial market share from 2/3" broadcast cameras. I'd expect a bundle with viewfnder to end up around £12,000 ex VAT - which is substantially below the current price of such as a PMW500, the latter without viewfinder.

The 18-252 Sony servo zoom is about £6,500, and that's equivalent to about 6.5mm-85mm in 2/3" terms, a pretty useful range. Yes, that lens has a maximum aperture of f3.8, but the larger sensor should give far higher sensitivity than a 3 chip 2/3" with comparable technology - I'd expect about two stops more. Hence f3.8 on such a lens should give performance roughly equivalent to around f1.8 on a 2/3" camera.

So for less than £20,000 you could have a complete body/vf/lens package with comparable performance, ergonomics etc to a pro 2/3" camera, and with the 50Mbs full broadcast codec. But additionally, prime lenses could be rented when justified to take advantage of the large sensor. To say nothing of the future possibilities of recording 4k with the extra recorder.

A thought which has just occurred to me, is that with the F5 we could for the first time see a large format camera which could take substantial market share from 2/3" broadcast cameras. I'd expect a bundle with viewfnder to end up around £12,000 ex VAT - which is substantially below the current price of such as a PMW500, the latter without viewfinder.

The 18-252 Sony servo zoom is about £6,500, and that's equivalent to about 6.5mm-85mm in 2/3" terms, a pretty useful range. Yes, that lens has a maximum aperture of f3.8, but the larger sensor should give far higher sensitivity than a 3 chip 2/3" with comparable technology - I'd expect about two stops more. Hence f3.8 on such a lens should give performance roughly equivalent to around f1.8 on a 2/3" camera.

So for less than £20,000 you could have a complete body/vf/lens package with comparable performance, ergonomics etc to a pro 2/3" camera, and with the 50Mbs full broadcast codec. But additionally, prime lenses could be rented when justified to take advantage of the large sensor. To say nothing of the future possibilities of recording 4k with the extra recorder.

...and you could easily throw on a B4 lens mount adapter and use your 2/3" ENG lenses to cover full frame with the 2x extender engaged.

Based on Pcam app for iPhone the equivelant is 7,3-102,3, although the S35 sensors are not standardized as the 2/3. Actually the f3.5 has comparable DOF with f1,8 on 2/3, which is essential for ENG.

David I had thought the same about the F3, when they released the zoom, but the need for cage and lack of proper VF didn't help much. Still I'd suspect even the F5 won't be as versalite as a dedicated EnG camcorder and will only be used occasionally.

I just can't think of all that many situations where a S35mm camera would make a suitable alternative to a traditionally 2/3" type of shooting scenario.

Some jobs, especially run around/news-gathering type shoots - need the deep focus and the versatility you get from a smaller image format, they're different tools for different types of jobs.

Some jobs, especially run around/news-gathering type shoots - need the deep focus and the versatility you get from a smaller image format, they're different tools for different types of jobs.
Ah, that's the point! Assuming the same angle of view, what's the difference in depth of field terms between a 2/3" camera at f4 and an s35 camera at f11? Answer is nothing at all.

You can get dof equivalence on s35 simply by shooting at a smaller aperture - 3 stops down. The normal reasons for not going to f11 and below are diffraction softening, but that is a function of actual aperture diameter - not f stop. Bigger sensor=bigger opening=you can use smaller f stop numbers.

Other difference of smaller apertures is obviously less light - but if the camera is more sensitive, again it's almost back to square one. (Not quite - the undeniable loss will be about a stop owing to one chip versus three chip factors. Compared to a three chip 2/3" camera at f4, I'd expect to need to set the s35 to f11 for depth of field parity, but f8 for exposure parity, all else equal.)

The real reason why large format cameras haven't really been a competitor to 2/3" for news etc type shoots has really been down to ergonomics etc. With the F5/55, that has changed dramatically. It may not give any advantages if you solely do that sort of work - but does mean you can own a camera that may be used for news one day, drama the next. A basic body/vf/servo zoom package would be fine for news etc work, hire extra lenses, 4k recorder as required.

That could make it a very appealing choice to a freelancer who does a variety of different types of work.

I'll have a new B4 adapter for the F5/F55 ready before launch that takes advantage of the 4K sensor. Converts a B4 lens to fill a 2.5K pixels centre portion of the 4K sensor. Shoot 4K on the F55 (or 4k raw on the f5) and just crop out the smaller HD image with much deeper DoF than if you used the full sensor frame.

I'll have a new B4 adapter for the F5/F55 ready before launch that takes advantage of the 4K sensor. Converts a B4 lens to fill a 2.5K pixels centre portion of the 4K sensor. Shoot 4K on the F55 (or 4k raw on the f5) and just crop out the smaller HD image with much deeper DoF than if you used the full sensor frame.

In a way its too bad F doesn't offer a cropped (windowed) mode in camera. But obviously if you could only chose one feature in-camera it would be scaled and not windowed. Learning that the RED was shooting 2k in windowed (crop) mode was another one of the reasons I sold my package right after ordering it.

Alister, is there are reason you could not use the MTF B4 to PL adapter? Does that one contain any magnifier?

I know the MTF B4 to F3 adapter used a 1.5x magnifier which combined with the 2x extender on an ENG lens would give you full frame coverage - but Im looking for a solution that will NOT cover the full frame because I would just shoot 2k or 4k on the F camera and then crop it myself in post.

My idea was to use a ENG lens without extender and possibly 1.5x magnifier in the adapter to cover 2k of a 4k frame. What about a straight metal adapter without magnifier and using the 2x extender? Would a pure non-magnifying adapter work?

In a way its too bad F doesn't offer a cropped (windowed) mode in camera. But obviously if you could only chose one feature in-camera it would be scaled and not windowed. Learning that the RED was shooting 2k in windowed (crop) mode was another one of the reasons I sold my package right after ordering it.

Window 2K in Red sounds good until you do it. You'd think that since it's 2K, you couldn't see the difference between 4K scaled down and 2K windowed. The bummer is that you can, and if you have a discerning eye, it's not subtle.

If you ever have to push exposure, it gets much worse. The noise changes size drastically. I've had shots that were borderline unusable because of it.

The only time it seems to work is if you're watching 720p derived from 2K on the web. Then you can't tell near as much.

Window 2K in Red sounds good until you do it. You'd think that since it's 2K, you couldn't see the difference between 4K scaled down and 2K windowed. The bummer is that you can, and if you have a discerning eye, it's not subtle.

If you ever have to push exposure, it gets much worse. The noise changes size drastically. I've had shots that were borderline unusable because of it.

The only time it seems to work is if you're watching 720p derived from 2K on the web. Then you can't tell near as much.

Too bad RED's windowed mode isn't great, I sure hope Sony's re-sampled/scaled 2k mode is good, but I trust them and their abundance of engineers. That's why I think Sony is worth any investment, with Sony you're in good hands (even though they aren't pioneers at marketing)

I seriously can't wait to throw a 2/3" lens on an F5 or F55!

- but Im looking for a solution that will NOT cover the full frame because I would just shoot 2k or 4k on the F camera and then crop it myself in post.
Windowing wouldn't be any good for what I was thinking of - dual use as a 2/3" camera for news etc use on occasion.

In such case you need to simply record to the card in normal XDCAM format, end of story. So you need the image covering the whole sensor, derive 1080 and XDCAM422 directly, record to SxS for direct use.

The other point is that if you go the windowing route, you must record 4k - so have to have the 4k recorder. I was thinking of a basic body/vf/lens package for much work, then hire a 4k recorder and primes as needed.

Hence for such as that, you do need an optical B4 adaptor to spread the image to cover the entire s35 frame.

One other thought is does the F5/55 support the 35Mbs mode? Whilst 50Mbs seems to be the requirement for much broadcast work, such as news seems to be settling down to mainly use the 35Mbs codec - SD card support and smaller file sizes (hence more quickly downloaded) seem to take precedence over absolute codec quality for many organisations.

I know the MTF B4 to F3 adapter used a 1.5x magnifier which combined with the 2x extender on an ENG lens would give you full frame coverage - but Im looking for a solution that will NOT cover the full frame because I would just shoot 2k or 4k on the F camera and then crop it myself in post.

That's what I'm developing with MTF.

That's what I'm developing with MTF.

I believe the MTF B4 to F3 mount you developed with MTF will already do this, but not using the 2x extender built into the lens? What am I missing?

Also do you know if it is possible to use a pure mechanical B4 to F3 or PL mount adapter with no magnification in the adapter, and only use the 2x magnifier.

So I am posing two scenarios.

Just using the 2x extender fills an area around 3k pixels wide, using the 1.4x in the adapter only fills about 2k pixels wide (not enough pixels for full HD resolution). So we are looking to build an adapter with approx 1.6x magnification so we have as little magnification as possible to get the deepest DoF and less than 1 stop of light loss. You could use a purely mechanical mount adapter and just the lenses extender, but DoF will be shallower than will be possible with a less strong magnifier.