Hey Gang,
I have been playing with my new PMW-200 and we shot our first professional gig with it yesterday. I started transferring footage this morning and what a pleasant surprise: the camera captures 4 channels of audio in 35 Mbps FAT mode!

According to Sony, it is only supposed to do this in 50 Mbps UDF mode (HD422).

This is cool because we often use a couple lavs on talent, or a lav and a shotgun on the camera, but I like to have stereo "room tone" off the camera mic for editing later. I thought I would have to always shoot in 50 Mbps mode to get this feature but apparently not.

I am shooting to SDHC cards with the Sony SxS adapter, then transferring to FCP 7 using the new Log and Transfer Tool (V 1.2). I still can't actually make that tool work with UDF footage, by the way. But it's kicking butt on the 35 Mbps FAT stuff!

Jonathan

Yeah 4 channels is impressive, I've only had mine for a couple of days and I have upgraded from the Z1 with 2 channels.

I am missing something about the 4th channel of audio?

I'm not sure what you mean about the 4th channel.

Sorry I'm not making my self clear.

Can someone explain the 4 channel audio to me?

....must be that New Math....

....must be that New Math....

haha sorry maybe I'm slightly confused about the audio channels if you could explain it to me.

Also I have an old ECM-678 mic from my Z1 is this not compatible? I see the ECM-MS2 has 2 XLR connections compared to my single 1?

David, the ECM-MS2 has two connectors because it is a stereo microphone, and thus requires two cables. However, any mono microphone will also work with the PMW-200 -- but you just won't have stereo sound.

However with that said, it is possible to send the signal from a mono microphone connected to XLR connector #1 to record on any of the four channels. (But it still won't be stereo).

"Mastering the PMW-200-160-150-100 Camcorders" (http://www.vortexmedia.com/DVD_PMW200.html)

Thanks Doug, Its a big step up from my old camera so I'll check out your DVDs.

Just 1 more question, can I use the onboard Mic and use the 1 or both XLR connectors to record audio? Do they record on to separate channels?

I didn't know my ecm 678 was a mono mic as I seen 2 channels on my z1 but I guess it was the same audio mirrored onto both channels.

David, as Jonathan stated in his first post, probably the most typical configuration is to use channels 1 & 2 to record external inputs on the XLR connectors (could be a stereo mic, could be two mics, or could be a mixer) and then use channels 3 & 4 to record the camera's internal mic.

Probably the second most common way of using the four channels would be to record the one source on channels 1 & 3 and another source on channels 2 & 4. Since 3 & 4 are always on AGC, they provide a safely net in case of 1 & 2 get over-driven.

Probably the second most common way of using the four channels would be to record the one source on channels 1 & 3 and another source on channels 2 & 4. Since 3 & 4 are always on AGC, they provide a safely net in case of 1 & 2 get over-driven.

Reminds me of the old Betacam SX days where the built in wireless receiver and the front jack (normally the oncamera mic) would be recorded to Channels 3 & 4 with AGC activated... saved our butts in the newsroom on a couple of occasions when folks forgot to wear their headphones to verify audio...

Of course, only the D75 VTRs would access those channels so we needed to bring in the expensive VTRs when someone fouled up...

Kinda happy to see 4 channels of audio again...

Yeah, I've been using four channels of audio on my F800 for the last three years and it is definitely a nice feature to have.

Another tip is that if you run channels 1&2 with separate sources, (i.e. lav and shotgun) and AGC on, remember to go into the menu and separate the AGC to mono. The camera can pair the AGC as stereo (i.e. reduce the gain on both channels 1&2 if either channel 1 or 2 gets hot) or it can treat the channels independently. Unless you are using a stereo mic on 1&2, you pretty much always want the AGC to consider each channel separately.

It's pretty annoying in post when you realize the audio levels on channel 2 are all over the place because the AGC is responding to something on channel1!

I don't want to be a party-pooper, but didn't you just get 4 channels, because the EXCam-footage was rewrapped into a mxf-format with 4 mono-tracks while transcoding?

I use Premiere Pro (so I don't need to transcode): that gives me 1 stereo-track. But when I use Sony Clipbrowser to rewrap I get 4 mono-tracks as well.

Until you managed to record 4 seperate tracks in 35Mb/s mode, I think is just the transcoding fooling you.

Walter, we are not being fooled. We have four distinct channels with four different sources in 35Mbps FAT mode.

BTW, who's transcoding anyway? In 6 years of using all flavors of XDCAM with FCP7, I've never transcoded once.

Yes, the 4 channels in the FAT mode are a brilliant plus point.
Fridays wedding was a Civil Ceremony in the smallest room ever, I could only use one camera, so with both lav mics fitted the on board mic gave me very nice ambient audio without having to use my trust Zoom H1.
Only fault I am having with the internal mic is the sound from the wedding band that night. I thought I had it sorted. I have always use my internal mic on auto on my old Z1's and this has served me very well, but with my PMW150/160 this has not been the case. The audio is clipping a lot on the higher notes. I always monitor it through my headphones but some bands are that loud its hard to get a clear reading, I turned my INT MIC Level down to -12db and it sounded fine on my headphones, but not when I listened back. Dont get me wrong its good for 90% of the time, but on higher notes its slightly distorted, not perfect.
Can anyone shed some light on how I could maybe improve this, there is a Limiter Mode and AGC Spec setting that I know nothing about. The AGC Spec is at -6dB and the Limiter Mode set to OFF.

Paul, the built in mic on the EX1 is crap, I suppose that they didn't put anything better on the PMW200.

It will distort and sound awful in high SPL situations (loud live band) and there's nothing you can do about it except to use a quality external microphone.

Thanks Zoran lol I am starting to think its a bit crap myself, new camera and new technique I guess.
I always use wireless G2's and a shotgun mic on my two main cameras but I've never had to do this for bands. I dont like the feed from their mixer desks as its alway very flat and varies on every song, what type of mic have you had success using for the bands?

Paul I have been doing reseach for about the last month regarding the purchase of a new camera. Everything leads me right back to the PMW 200.Hows you experience been with this camera, particulary its low light capeabilities and auto focus functions. From what i've seen online, I have to assume that the picture quality is great. Also, does anyone know if there is somewhere I can download sample clips from?

Hey Kevin, I know you didn't ask me, but I have a 200 as well and an EX3 also. The low light function is a little better than the 3 due to it's not as noisy even at +9 gain. The zoom controller is LIGHT years better and the auto focus is as expected, good, but I still choose not to use it most of the time. My biggest gripe is that LCD is very hard to see in daylight (need to get something for it) and the other viewfinder is a total POS. All in all I really like it and very happy with the purchase.

Paul,

when I'm shooting live bands I use a Rode NT5 on my cam. That little inexpensive puppy takes more than 140dB before it clips, no problem for live music.

Thanks for the input Jerry, anyone else?

Kevin...if I read your original question correctly, you're still interested in the 'audio' performance, not the low-light capability of the PMW-200.

You might want to enter the Audioset>Menu and consider 'INT MIC Level' and 'Limiter Mode' adjustments for control of high SPL.

Regards,

J.

Paul I have been doing reseach for about the last month regarding the purchase of a new camera. Everything leads me right back to the PMW 200.Hows you experience been with this camera, particulary its low light capeabilities and auto focus functions. From what i've seen online, I have to assume that the picture quality is great. Also, does anyone know if there is somewhere I can download sample clips from?

Hi Kevin, I dont own the PMW200, its the PMW150/160 I bought. The camera is the same from the lens back as the 200 without the 1/2 inch chips. Compared to low light on my EX1R, I put them side by side outside and got an exposure on -3 gain and no ND filters, the EX1r was at F11 and the PMW150 was at F5.6 so the low light difference is massive. As said above the screen on it for outside is terrible, the colours always look way of and the same in some indoor situations but when played back on the TV the picture is perfect and super sharp, I am using one of Doug's PP setting.

Kevin...if I read your original question correctly, you're still interested in the 'audio' performance, not the low-light capability of the PMW-200.

You might want to enter the Audioset>Menu and consider 'INT MIC Level' and 'Limiter Mode' adjustments for control of high SPL.

Regards,

J.

Hi James, could you shed any light on how these settings effect the control of high SPL?

I turned my INT MIC Level down to -12 and its still clipping, would the limiter help that bit and if yes, from your experience what works best?

Paul,

when I'm shooting live bands I use a Rode NT5 on my cam. That little inexpensive puppy takes more than 140dB before it clips, no problem for live music.

If I cant get any better sound with these mic settings I will have to buy one of these Zoran.

Are they a directional mic and need mounted on a stand of the camera facing the band or will they work just fine mounted on the mic holder on the camera? Also are you getting away with using the auto levels or is it best kept on manual?

They have a standard cardioid pattern. I keep one on my cam all the time mounted in a mic holder.
You'll need some rubber though to increase the diameter of the mic as the holder is slightly wider.

Also the mic is very sensitive and will pickup any handling noise. If you work in quiet enviroments and expect clean audio from a on camera mic then get a shockmount that you can mount to your cam either on a coldshoue or in the mic holder.

Oh, the mic also has a very nice bass response but it will drive the cam limiter crazy (or clip abruptly if you keep the limiter off) in some situations. I strongly suggest keeping the low cut (or windfilter how it's called in EX1) engaged when you don't film live music and don't need that bass response.

Levels are manual, always.

Kevin...the 'Limiter Mode', restricts the amount of audio signal ingested into the camera based upon the threshold you set. The amount of 'Limiter' dialed-in will keep the audio signal from over driving (in theory).

Presuming you have the camera already set to the correct 'Reference Level' of -20dB, you can adjust the 'Limiter' in the 'Menu>Audio Set' and watch the results via the 'Status Screen' VU Meters to determine the effect. The down-side, if you dial-in too much, your recording will kind of 'splat' and also sound bad. I'm sure there are other, more knowledgeable folks who will chime-in with a more technical answer.

I don't have a lot of experience recording in high-SPL environments with just the on-board 'Internal Mic' and an on-board Shotgun. If, I were going to try and capture a good recording of a loud musical group live and sync it with my camera and presuming the soundboard feed was not possible, I'd bring my Sound Devices SD302 Mixer, AKG C414XLS matched Impedance Stereo Mics and a tall Mic stand. That setup would get me a 'good' recording, not the best, mind you, but good. Unfortunately, you will be limited (pun intended) in your movement using a Mixer and Mic Stand.

Regards,

J.

James,

if the mic itself is clipping (which is the case with EX1) then no limiter in this world can help there.

Zoran...Yes. Unfortunately, your correct. If, the MIC isn't up to a high-SPL environment, no 'Limiter' will help. I don't know what the 'specs' are for the built-in MIC.

I just thought the OP needed to exhaust the possibilities before going out and spending more money. Hence, my 'prefered solution' Mixer and good Microphones. : )

Best regards,

J.

Aorangi is probably right and he seems to have done his homework on this scenario, just for the sake of trying, I'll give the limiter a try at Saturdays wedding and if it's still not right I'll have to buy this wee rode to do the job.

Just to point out the obvious, if you do NOT use the internal mic as one of your audio sources, then you will only have two sources of audio (XLR1 and XLR2) . . . in other words, you lose out on what the OP was so excited about when he started this thread. Technically you might have four channels, but you're only going to have 2 sources without the internal stereo mic.

Hasn't anybody yet tried to open a PMW200 and replace the internal mic with something better ?

I believe Doug Jensen pointed out that Channels 3 & 4, when recorded, are always controlled by the AGC feature of the camera. There is a 'Menu>AUDIO SET>AGC Spec', that can introduce up to -17dB of Input signal (source) attenuation. I'd give this a try, too.

After reviewing the Manual a little more, it seems the 'Limiter Mode' is only active when "...the AUDIO SELECT switch is set to MANU (Manual)". This may negate the use of the 'Limiter' on channels 3 & 4, since they are controlled by the AGC circuit? Someone with more intimate knowledge of the PMW-200 should be able to confirm this?

I hope this helps.

Regards,

J.

Hasn't anybody yet tried to open a PMW200 and replace the internal mic with something better ?

It would be fantastic to be able to (somehow) connect another wireless to ch. 3 (and 4 I guess, as they seem to be linked). Is this within the realm of the possible though?
Regards, Malcolm

Malcolm Hamilton...The 'External MIC' source, channels 1 & 2, are strictly the XLR Audio Block. With that said, the 'Audio Input' for channel 3 & 4 can be changed from the 'Internal MIC' to the 'External Source', i.e., all four (4) channels would record the whatever the 'External Source' captures.

I don't believe there is a way to 'add' another 'source' on channels 3 & 4. It would be sweet!

Again, I'm sure there are other more technically astute people who will chime in if I'm in error.

Regards,

J.

Some people may find this video helpful.

XDCAM ESSENTIALS Episode 6: Recording Four Channels of Audio on Vimeo

Thanks Doug (with one year delay...)
My suggestion about replacing the PMW's internal mic came from the fact that I never succeeded in obtaining anything that sounded like stereo from it. In FCPX I can see that the levels of the 2 channels are very slightly different, but when listening with headphones the sensation of space is zero, it sounds just like mono - which to my ears makes it unfit for recording concert hall amblience, like you suggest in your video example. Could it be that my internal mic is defective, or is it supposed to sound like that, and if yes, why ? I get much more enjoyable stereo for any amateur camera... Thanks

The design of the PMW-200 internal mic makes it less for ambiance but rather for straight forward sound capture. You can tell by the holes in the design that none of them are at the top or sides of the capsule.

The EX1 and EX1R had more open mic capsules which made them bad for speech, but perfect for wide stereo ambiance.

Since this thread had just awakened...
In the past year I've had several shoots where recording the camera mic on 3 and 4 has proved a huge bonus / (perhaps lifesaver). One such example happened the night I was hired to film the curtain call from the Broadway show 'Beautiful.' I had been asked to show up an hour before the show, run two mic cables from the audio board down to my seat in the 5th row, watch the show and then start taping at the beginning of the curtain call. The two mic cables were for board feeds of vocal and music tracks. There were no further instructions what to tape - only that I would know when I saw it. Of course this was the night that Carole King saw the musical for the first time, and surprised the cast by coming in from the wings behind them before they started to sing the post-bows encore.
From an audio perspective the two tracks from the board would have been a nightmare in telling the story. They provided me with very dry feeds of the cast mics on one track, and the orchestra on the other. Remember - cast and crew were not aware of her presence, so there was no 'preparation' for this Of course the crucial moment occurred when Carole appeared on stage behind the cast - and the audience reacted to her presence before the cast (with their backs to her) knew she was there. It was the sound of the audience - captured with the camera mics on channels 3 & 4 - that provided the excitement to the moment on the video. In the overnight edit the camera mics were mixed in throughout the cut to add dimension and excitement to the piece (which then ran on tv network and local morning shows across the country a few hours later.)
On a number of other occasions, particularly when taking board feeds for the main audio tracks, the camera tracks on 3 & 4 have provided a dimension to the audio that would not otherwise have been captured. Massive stereo separation, no --- but huge usability, yes!

I've had unexpected moments (not as dramatic as the example above!) where the additional audio captured from my PMW-300 has proved HIGHLY useful for the editing mix on several occassions in fast moving run and gun situations....saved my bacon at least once!

Great story, Dave.

On the flip side ... did the client notice or value the difference in the extra non-board audio?

Andrew

It would have been seriously missed.
Like watching a sporting event without hearing the crowd cheering when the home team scores in overtime...
As it happens, the press rep (the client) was there during the overnight edit - and did hear the difference.

The design of the PMW-200 internal mic makes it less for ambiance but rather for straight forward sound capture. You can tell by the holes in the design that none of them are at the top or sides of the capsule.

The EX1 and EX1R had more open mic capsules which made them bad for speech, but perfect for wide stereo ambiance.

The obvoius answer to that dilemma is MS stereo recording, which enables to choose at the editing stage whether you want the straight mono sound from the center cardio mic, the super-wide stereo from combination of cardioid mic for center and fig of 8 mic for the sides, or anything in between, without phase problems whatsoever... totally practical and flexible... hence my question about the possibiliy to replace the original capsules.

Subsidiairy question: in the case where the external source is a MS stereo mic, does a NLE application such as FCPX enable to use the zoom meta-data so that the stereo image is widened when zooming out and narrowed when zooming in ?