Something I'm very curious about -- how do you use your slider? What sorts of moves do you make? What sorts of opportunities do you hunt for?

For me personally, the list of slider moves/opportunities in an events environment isn't large, and the slider is one of the first things to get left behind if I'm worried I'm taking too much gear.

I'm very keen to see if you think about using your slider in different ways to this:


1. Reveals. In practice, this seems to be how most people use sliders. Revealing brides getting ready, revealing brides walking down aisles, etc. Tends to be placed at floor height, perhaps because of the visual interest added by low angles, but probably just as often because it's a pain to centre-mount sliders on tripods. Tends to be horizontal rather than vertical or diagonal.

2. Movement down a line, which in effect is a lot of little reveals. Eg: lining groomsmen's cufflinks up, or bridesmaids' shoes, and sliding down them.

3. "Keyframe to keyframe" -- moving from nice composition A to nice composition B. Probably the main way dollies are used outside of an events environment -- the art of coordinating camera movement and actors' blocking. But given that events are fast-moving and unplanned, I think you're only really going to see this sort of technique on staged shots, and probably only on furniture.

4. Pushing in and pulling out. Very rarely: pushing through something, to make the shot more engaging, like a bead curtain or a fountain. You can, of course, create the illusion of pushing through something (like a fence) without actually moving through it.

Given that any slider you have in an events envrionment is likely to be at the short end of the scale for ease of carrying about, you may need something to emphasise movement through space if you're going to push in or out -- objects that you're going past as you slide.

Pulling out can be a nice way to end a sequence, just as pushing in can be a nice way to start it.

5. Tracking a subject through something, with objects in the foreground to create perspective and interest. In a non-events environment, you might combine this with a hand-off -- following a waiter who takes you from the protagonist's table at a restaurant to the antagonist's.

6. Combination move: combining the slider with a tilt/pan/focus pull, just for the sake of visual interest. For instance, coming around someone's letterbox and pulling focus to the house as an establishing shot. Doing a wide-angle low-angle of a dress, and dollying into it while tilting up to try to create some sort of feeling of wonder. The ability to combine techniques in this way is a big advantage sliders have over Steadicams.

Never actually seen anyone do a Hitchcock and combine a push in with a zoom out.

7. As a static composition substitute. Movement for the hell of it. For instance, you might slide next to an object, but pan subtly to keep it in the same position in the frame.


I guess, in almost all of these cases, the camera movement isn't as significant as in a movie. The psychology of the move isn't as careful, the meaning of the move isn't controlled. Mostly, it really is just "visual interest", just icing on the cake...

Never actually seen anyone do a Hitchcock and combine a push in with a zoom out.That's because we are not aiming to produce a sense of unease in our audience:-)

BTW Thanks for the insightful postings analysing sliders & other tricks of our trade.

That's because we are not aiming to produce a sense of unease in our audience:-)

BTW Thanks for the insightful postings analysing sliders & other tricks of our trade.


Maybe it could be used on the groom while he's getting ready.

Adrian,
Your discription of the possible shots was framed as "what kind of shots do we use the slider for"...my guess is you really meant to say "while everyone is using the same old tired slider shots" what can we do to up the creative use of this tool? The answer would be...get creative on your own and quit trying to copy other people's style and ideas....but that's just me...I don't use the damn thing because EVERYONE ELSE DOES!!!

lots of slider work here. some sliding forward other times across.
it was used at 1 min 12 secs to film from behind railings as the bride walked along the balcony.

Ka Yin and Wai-Kee Kwok Blairquhan castle on Vimeo

Nice shots but slider shots are so darn short! I still prefer to work on stedicam...it's a lot easier and you don't need to move it from location to location as it's part of you so you just walk. You can't do 360's either with a slider.

I guess it's useful if you are doing jewellery style shots at the bridal prep where you can often set up a slider and bring the subjects to it....I had a 3' one but cos my cameras are around 8lbs I have to use double stands on a slider.

Hi Chris, yes the slider i use sits on a single.tripod so i do sometimes wish it was double the length.(if not triple).
I use a dslr on the slider so its fairly light and quick to move.
I have looked at steadycam but the cost of a quality one is high and the set up time during the day puts me off. But yes ive seen stunning steadycam work and i take my hat off to those who manage to master them. Perhaps i need more patience :-)
All the best John.

Hi John

Don't get me wrong I think slider shots are very cool ..just hard work for the videographer ...As you get used to a stedicam's full rig and vest, you can zip into it in about a minute (initially it took me a LONG time)

Since you are on DSLR maybe a handheld rig would give you some extra flexibility?? However the BIG issue of course is try to focus a manual lens which would upset rig balance!! My mate Philip has just bought a stedicam "smoothee" and believe it on not flies a GoPro hero on this...I'm waiting for some footage ..but I like the idea ..almost a portable slider and more BUT obvious zero control of DOF!!!

I do envy you guys I must admit!!! I am adaptable and I DID try a DSLR but didn't get too enthusiastic about it so I cannot do all the neat things you guys can do!!!

Chris

I have looked at steadycam but the cost of a quality one is high and the set up time during the day puts me off.

My experience is just the opposite, I have a simple slider but hardly use it, just because it's too much hassle to drag around and set up during the day. Only when I have enough time I use it but even then it's just for a few shots.

My blackbird steadicam otoh (combined with a 550d and a 14mm lens) is used much more, setup time is very quick (didn't actually time it but I think it's not more then 15 minutes taking it out of it's case, assembling it and balancing) and I can use the included stand to put it on the floor, ready to be used when I need it. So when I"m filming with my second dslr on a tripod and if something happens that requires my steadicam I just put my tripod aside, pick up the steadicam and I"m off.

I only start using it from the reception (usually around 3-4 in the afternoon) because before that it's the church and a lot driving around from location to location and then I prefer just using tripods and a monopod. The reception is the last location so all my gear is offloaded and placed in one location, only my slider often stays at home.

Having a vest and arm would certainly take the strain from my arms/back but that would require me to leave the vest on all afternoon and evening and that can't be fun on a hot day, with the blackbird I can act quicker and often that can mean the difference in getting or not getting the shot.

Hi Noa,
Its interesting to hear how other people are working during each wedding and I suppose its all down to how we prefer to work or how comfortable we are with certain pieces of equipment.
I suppose the venue also has an influence on what equipment I will choose to use on the day.
I must say though that my DSLR spends a lot of its time on the slider, either on the tripod or on the ground.
I find it light weight and quick to switch to my monopod when required.
I do however have my other cameras set up ready for the service already, so that does give me a bit of time.
I think the blackbird looks a great piece of kit and i know it gets great reviews. I will look at it again perhaps in the future.
I must say I do admire the work some people do with them as my previous attempts were, shall we say wobbly ! :-)

john

I'm with Noa. I usually forget to pack the slider now & even when I do bring it I never get around to using it as it's too much hassle dragging it around. I extensively use a Glidecam 2000 with 5D2 or 5D3 as sort of my replacement for a shoulder mount camera but I also use it for 'slider' & 'crane' shots. It's so much quicker & easier & more fluid & natural to use.

Occasionally I get the chance to use my Steadicam Pilot but then I need more room & also need to concentrate on just Steadicam as it's difficult to e.g. sort out wireless mics operate a camera on a tripod etc if you have the arm & vest on. It's not the vest per se but the arm that is so unwieldy.

Hi Nigel

Agreed!! I stopped using the vest inside Churches a while back and trying to walk backwards down the aisle produced awesome shots but was somewhat hazardous to people learning out and getting wacked by the arm...the Blackbird is an under-camera gimbal so that's more compact. My dual arm probably sticks out at least a foot or two from the side of my body and can do a serious injury!!

Chris

John - that's a nice rotation at 1'07" - what sort of tripod adapter have you to enable you to do that? It looks fairly dead central - is it?

Pete

John - that's a nice rotation at 1'07" - what sort of tripod adapter have you to enable you to do that? It looks fairly dead central - is it?

Pete

That was a nice shot.

I also noticed all the reveal shots were from right to left. Is there a reason for that?

picked up a glidetrack last week - secondhand, i can see how it can increase production value, i'm still practising and will need plenty of it i think!
I've mounted it on a carbon fibre tripod so i can operate the tripod head with the slider attached to get some interesting angles and that. I had a camcorder on it which is a bit heavy at 2.9 kg so i think i'll be using a EOS 7D for the slider shots.

From doing my practise shots, i notice that most are from right to left i suppose it's because i'm right handed - feels more natural to do it like that.

Hi Rob

I wonder how the viewer's brain works in relation to right and left?? We read left to right!! If I'm circling the couple on stedicam I almost always go around them clockwise and the stedicam arm is on my right but the camera is pretty much in the middle...For me I would feel awkward going around the couple counter-clockwise ...but I could of course. Stedicams can also be flown with the arm on your right or your left and it's an operator preference but sliders are in a fixed position so it would be equally easy to slide left to right or right to left ... I wonder what is considered "correct" or doesn't it matter??? I have often see rail dolly shots go right to left during a scene where there is no destination point. If you are sliding from a non interesting point to a focal point and the focal point is to the right, do you then slide left to right so you finish on the focal point?? Whether it's a slide or a pan or a dolly track, there is always a reason to move and that's so you guide the viewer to a new point of interest.

Chris

Hi Pete, thanks for the nice comments about the rotation shot. The tripod adapter is from an old velbon tropod and it was mounted on the slider. I just tilted the camera right back and slowly rotated it. I was lucky because the roof was made for a shot like that , it was beautiful .
I never really thought about the slider shots always going the same way, i am right handed so perhaps thats why. The shot of Ka Yin walking down the stairs was originally planned to be from the opposite side , so would have been left to right, however after talking to the photographer and planning where we were going to both shoot from the decision was made to swap to the other stairs.
It was nice working with a photog that understood what we wanted to achieve and was happy to work with us to get the shots first time without getting in each others way.
Best wishes john

yeah after some more practice i've done right and left pans/slides and of course as Chris pointed out it's all to do with where you want the viewer focus on.

Most times I do the slider shot both ways, and pick which one looks best next to the other shots when I edit. I'm not moving the rig when I do it. I just get one shot sliding right, then one sliding left, unless I specifically need to reveal right to left, or left to right.

Well I like my glidetrack HD (.75m) but until I can find a bag for it I won't be taking it out - as a single shooter I just need to be able to whip it out of a bag, get my shot, and put it away again with a minimum of fuss. Having the 701HDV head on makes it tough to find a bag

Had a play with slider yesterday.

New way I'm thinking about slider opportunities: (1) anywhere you're tempted to simply pan or tilt is probably somewhere you could have combined that motion with a slider, like wedding cakes or panning around a reception room; (2) any place where there is simply a distinct object of interest, like a bride as opposed to a group of people, is a maintain-composition slider opp, but especially when combined with foreground elements; (3) any place where there is a horizontally moving object is a slider opp, either tracking with the object or as a reveal going the opposite direction that picks up and stays with the object.

I don't know if the slide is really anything more than window dressing for this stuff, but it's nice window dressing. In some cases, you can have three things going at once -- slide + pan/tlit + zoom/pull focus.

Wide shots with no way to feel the slide are not slider opps, at least with short sliders, but even in these cases low angles give you the floor in shot, so that gives sense of movement.

i have my glidetrack in a tripod bag at the moment it's got a 501 HDV head so to actually get it in the bag i have to take the feet off, but it's pretty quick to attach them when setting up!

R.

I use a Konova K2 with a 701HDV head and that won't fit in the provided Konova bag (nice package by the way for a reasonable price)..so I decided to put a manfrotto quick plate release on the Konova so that I can attach the 701 head for transport. I didn't want to be screwing the head on and off on the Knova slider.
It works fine..this way I can still use the bag the Konova came in. Using the 701HDV head allows for more dynamic shots with some tilting etc but sometimes if I need to use the Konova vertical then I use a Gorilla Zoom ballhead. So far so good.
E

Hey Erick, does that bag actually fit the slider with the head attached? If so, I'm on the point of reaching for my wallet; that's one problem I've never to my satisfaction solved. I currently use a large wheeled Cinevate bag, which fits a bunch of stuff -- two tripods, slider, two light stands, microphone stand, monopod... But I often take three tripods and leave the slider at home.

You definitely don't want to be attaching and reattaching the head every time. I've damaged my slider doing this. Head wasn't threaded onto the screw properly, and when I panned it, it bent the screw.

By the way, I've configured my gear so everything works with Manfrotto quick release plates. I also have one permanently attached to the bottom of the slider, so it can be centre-mounted on tripod quickly. The tripod I prefer to use with the slider is a Sachtler one with a strong centre column -- can easily adjust height without fiddling with locks for three legs. I never try to go vertical or diagonal... I should be more creative.

Great thread, I'm considering buying a slider as well but with my glidecamHD2000 I'm not sure I need it, and I'm not sure I'd use it all that much?

What are you using it for? I found that I use my slider more than steadicam on most projects

I posted in the video clip forum but I'll post it here too,

John and Melissa on Vimeo

Basically what I end up doing with the glide cam isn't just a straight slide or for a reveal because I can't pull focus on it at all. I use it for circling and following the subject mostly, and for a lot of vertical stuff (I'm 6'5" so I can get a lot of shots that look like I used a jib crane). If you notice the shot of the curling irons and hair and makeup, that would be a place where I would have used a slider, or with the book of photos as the beginning.

Hi, I think you use a steadicam in an unusual way, and that a slider wouldn't necessarily suit your style.

Guessing: 5dMkIII with Faithful picture profile and Canon primes? (I'm probably completely wrong.)

Unusual because: (1) you stay on it pretty much all day (whereas many people might just pull it out at key times); (2) you sometimes achieve some nice shallow depth of field shots with it (instead of stopping down till everything is in focus); (3) you don't seem to be using the sort of really wide angle lens most people use (is that right?); (4) shooting the whole wedding at high frame rate I think is unusual (to smooth it out a bit in post?); (5) the sorts of moves you make I think are unusual; for instance, you do some really interesting circular moves with it.

Wouldn't necessarily suit your style because... Well, I think the video has a kind of flowing, organic, human feel to it. You're sort of using the steadicam as a smoother shoulder-mounted cam; it's not like some sort of floating perfectly smooth ghost point of view. When you switch to tripod, or were you to switch to slider, I think there's a change of feel.

Just my AU$0.02. I'm sure you could incorporate a slider to advantage... But is the fiddling around with it worth it, instead of getting more beautiful steadicam shots? Your call...

By the way... wedding pie instead of wedding cake? That's a new one to me.

Edit: One more thought. Before every wedding I do, I always stress about whether or not to bring slider. I find it such a PITA to carry and use. But I think if you're going to the trouble of using it, you have to make it pay its way. You know, don't just use it for two reveal shots. Do things with it that you can't do with steadicam, like really low angle or really close to a table, or combined with a pan, tilt, focus pull or zoom, or getting really slow and deliberate shots, or in windy conditions. I think one of the most limiting things about a slider is that under event conditions you're normally carrying a short one, and there's not all that many places you can use it where the viewer feels the slide movement. A steadicam is just so much more useful.

I think the problem with using steadicam too much is that you lessen its impact. If you have mostly static shots and sliders during the ceremony, then brought the steadicam later on then it would seem more dynamic. Also with a steadicam you're limited to what lens you can use, you may get tire, and it may get out of balance. Also you can achieve a shallower depth of field with a longer lens. I say just get the slider, you can't improve if you don't try new stuff.

Adrian,

That video was shot with a canon T2i with a neutral setting, a 24mm-1.4 prime on the glidecam and a 70-200 2.8 L on the tripod. And yes, I shoot at 60fps in order to slow down a lot of the ceremony shots of people walking down the run way to give it an ultra-smooth and romantic/emotional look.

I wasn't aware I was using the glide cam in an unusual way although I suppose that makes sense, as most people would shoot with a shoulder rig and tripod. I shoot a lot of events, and I find the glidecam gives me the biggest bang for the buck, as I move around a lot and a tripod/slider would get in the way and be a hassle to carry around. I also like the glide cam because it's very smooth, and if I want a more intense feel to the shot I can introduce some camera shake by simply holding it by the arm or/or camera instead of the handle.

I do agree with Victor, that I may over use the glide cam, and this will change as I tinker with other equipment. I have connections to a local photo/video store that lends me equipment to try out, so I might grab a slider for the next wedding and see if I like it. The other problem here, I only shoot with one camera, and I'm the only one that shoots so I can't really use the slider during the ceremony as I might miss important moments switching from the glidecam to slider. During the reception, however, I could use it, and between the ceremony and reception or the 'getting ready' shots.

Thanks for the response guys, very helpful!

sounds like first of all that you need a second shooter. The guy who hire me have at least 3 shooters. He does creative stuff while we do coverage. Also a monopod would help if you're moving around a lot. Or you can buy extra cameras and extra tripod and lock that down while you do creative stuff. Still recommending you find an extra person though...