Tweet today from Peter Crithary: "Ahead of schedule. October 30, 2012. The New F"

Ned Soltz

Interesting indeed, just saw this post via the shotonf3.com feed on the news page!

So curious about this...

Tweet from ShotOnF3:


ShotOnF3 ‏@shotonf3
@VisualEdgeChris "assuming it is a camera" - I think you solved the riddle. The F# will be a new ext. 4k recorder for $4k! Happy Halloween! (http://www.twitter.com/shotonf3)

Looks like we will find out on Oct 30 or so.

Won't affect me since I'm shooting HD

:D

Tweet from ShotOnF3:

I think you solved the riddle. The F# will be a new ext. 4k recorder for $4k! Happy Halloween!
No, riddle not solved. There's no way you'll get 4k out of the F3 to externally record. The chip is not capable of it.

The F3 chip is approx a Bayer 3.5Megapixel, which will give true 1080 resolution after proper deBayering. You won't get any better though, not matter what you do.

The point about cameras like the C100/300/500 and the FS100/700 is that they have well over twice the pixel count, well over 8 megapixels. That enables them to give full 1080 *EASILY* (without a full deBayer) but have the ability to give out a RAW signal for external recording. If that is then fully deBayered, it will give substantially better than 1080 resolution. (Purists will argue - correctly - it's not true 4k, but it's a 4k raster with actual luminance resolution about 80% of that.)

Maybe a XDCAM422 50Mbs upgrade to the F3? Logical when seen in the light of the PMW200, and would answer a big criticism of the F3 since launch, would also make it a stronger competitor to the C300.

No, riddle not solved. There's no way you'll get 4k out of the F3 to externally record. The chip is not capable of it.

The F3 chip is approx a Bayer 3.5Megapixel, which will give true 1080 resolution after proper deBayering. You won't get any better though, not matter what you do.

The point about cameras like the C100/300/500 and the FS100/700 is that they have well over twice the pixel count, well over 8 megapixels. That enables them to give full 1080 *EASILY* (without a full deBayer) but have the ability to give out a RAW signal for external recording. If that is then fully deBayered, it will give substantially better than 1080 resolution. (Purists will argue - correctly - it's not true 4k, but it's a 4k raster with actual luminance resolution about 80% of that.)

Maybe a XDCAM422 50Mbs upgrade to the F3? Logical when seen in the light of the PMW200, and would answer a big criticism of the F3 since launch, would also make it a stronger competitor to the C300.

Not for the F3! For the FS700, F65, and future 4k F3 version...

IF Sony were going to upgrade the F3 which has S-Log and is designed for 10 bit and RGB would the XDCAM 8 bit codec make any sense? You'll never get a codec update to the existing F3, just the same as you'll never get one for the EX1.

I was expecting this announcement later in the year so it is indeed ahead of schedule!

Alister, any guess to street price of Sony's 4k recorder given SR-R1 sits at $8800 (plus media)?

No real idea. I've been asked by Sony what I would pay for an external recorder but I have no idea of pricing. I told them it would need to be less than $5K to have any chance at all and ideally around the $2.5K mark or less to be widely picked up, we shall see. Sony have a very large R&D department to pay for! My guess would be $5k. I've tried to impress on them that they are up against BMD etc. The guys I deal with at the sharp end do seem to understand this, but they don't make the pricing decisions.

The FS700 only has single 3G link correct? ie. no dual link 1.5G?

The FS700 only has single 3G link correct? ie. no dual link 1.5G?

That is correct.

IF Sony were going to upgrade the F3 which has S-Log and is designed for 10 bit and RGB would the XDCAM 8 bit codec make any sense?
It would make sense in so far as it is likely to be easy to implement, doesn't require any serious R&D, could likely be done cheaply, and is immediately widely supported by existing NLEs etc. You're correct that in view of S-log and the low noise of the F3 a 10-bit codec would make even more sense - but then we are likely to be talking of a total redesign.

But going to XDCAM422 would give it parity with the C300 and full broadcast acceptance with no external recorder.
You'll never get a codec update to the existing F3, just the same as you'll never get one for the EX1.
I'm not expecting any existing F3s to be upgradeable, but just as the PMW200 seems to be "the new EX1", a "new F3" (with 50Mbs inbuilt) could be the equivalent.

Dennis - I was led by your quote being from "ShotonF3", and with the new announcement being "The New F" made the assumption it was an F3 related item. I'm now inclined to think that a 4k related item is more probable, maybe even an update to the F3 using the 8 megapixel chip?

Yeah who knows David, who knows.

Now I'm just speculating the announcement is just the 4k upgrade for the FS700 itself.

So if they do bring out an F3 with the FS700 chip (which has 11 MP to help with steady shot etc) and then bring out the recorder for 4K raw for the FS700, why would you buy the F3 replacement? It would have to be something special to make the F3 replacement a better buy than a 4k raw capable FS700.

There appear to be more signs that it is indeed a new camera by Sony but the new speculation is that perhaps it is a FULL FRAME video camera and has nothing to do with F3 or 4k at all!

Now to me this makes sense.

Whereabouts are those 'signs' Dennis? That's a very intriguing idea.

...why would you buy the F3 replacement? It would have to be something special to make the F3 replacement a better buy than a 4k raw capable FS700.

Hopefully good ergonomics! A compact, balanced, shoulder mounted camera with the F3's specs and 50Mbps XDCAM HD would get me on the waiting list.

Add to that a version with the chip from the FS700 and 4K external recording and Sony could introduce two very popular models with very little R&D cost.

No doubt it will actually turn out to be some ergo-brick-disaster with no consideration of operating or monitoring.

Put your deposit down now. They do say it's a new camcorder:

The New F Camcorder by Sony to be announced on 30th October 2012 - PRE-ORDER DEPOSIT (http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/index.php?t=product/sony_thenewf)

Put your deposit down now. They do say it's a new camcorder:

The New F Camcorder by Sony to be announced on 30th October 2012 - PRE-ORDER DEPOSIT (http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/index.php?t=product/sony_thenewf)

From that link:
It is anticipated that TheNewF could be an updated successor to the PMW-F3 super 35mm camcorder sporting improved 'broadcast friendly' 50Mb/s recording quality and a whole range of other improvements...

We're not allowed to disclose exact specifications at the moment, all we can say for sure is that "TheNewF is probably the most exciting product that we can't tell you about"

So if they do bring out an F3 with the FS700 chip (which has 11 MP to help with steady shot etc) and then bring out the recorder for 4K raw for the FS700, why would you buy the F3 replacement? It would have to be something special to make the F3 replacement a better buy than a 4k raw capable FS700.

Alister, couldn't help but notice your tweet that you've put down a pre-order for one. Obviously you can't tell us about the camera itself, but can you share with us whether your pre-order is to replace your F3s, to compliment them, or to offer something very different to what they do?

Whereabouts are those 'signs' Dennis? That's a very intriguing idea.

@CVPgroup: @sammorganmoore We think it's likely to be priced in F3 territory not FS100/700... It could be for you if RED Scarlet is an option though... (http://www.twitter.com/cvpgroup)

What we know:
1) Sony is not above placing existing advanced sensors in cheaper bodies. (F3 sensor in FS100)
2) 4k is a very real competitive market right now.
3) The F3 is due for a replacement according to the historic release dates.
4) the F3 is at its limit for any profound firmware updates.
5) there is a huge gap in the Sony 4k offerings between the fs700 and the F65, and the price point is near F3 territory.
6) They have entertained suggestions on F3 improvements, which include (and seem to be the most popular requests) 50mbps internal codec, RAW output, faster framerates, ergonomics, build quality.

My prediction based on above:
They will be announcing a camera near the F3 original price point with the F65 sensor, i bet it will be called the F4k, compressed codec at 50mbps 1080p to internal cards, more or less the same s-log and 1.5g and 3G dual link outputs, ability to send out 4k RAW to their simoultaneously announced 4k raw recorder (that can be used on the F4k and the fs700). The 1080p shooting would have more advanced fs700 framerates without buffer restrictions, but the 4k option framerates will fall short at no more than 60i. The camera will be ergonomical, better mounting options, and look more like a modular "cinema camera."

Of course I could be completely wrong, but that's my prediction. Fun to speculate then realize I'm wrong when it comes out...lol.

Alister, couldn't help but notice your tweet that you've put down a pre-order for one. Obviously you can't tell us about the camera itself, but can you share with us whether your pre-order is to replace your F3s, to compliment them, or to offer something very different to what they do?

Can't answer that without breaking the NDA. I don't have all the details on this thing (camera, recorder whatever), don't forget FS700 recorder AND firmware update is still to be announced. This is still incredibly secret even within Sony, I'm not really supposed to know a lot of what I do. But the bits that I do know are extremely exciting, enough to make me place an order to get to the top of what I think will be a very, very long queue (consider that because of all the training that I do around the world it is important to me to have the latests Sony toys asap). I think many will be pleasantly surprised by what Sony have in the pipelines.

What we know:
1) Sony is not above placing existing advanced sensors in cheaper bodies. (F3 sensor in FS100)
2) 4k is a very real competitive market right now.
3) The F3 is due for a replacement according to the historic release dates.
4) the F3 is at its limit for any profound firmware updates.
5) there is a huge gap in the Sony 4k offerings between the fs700 and the F65, and the price point is near F3 territory.

My prediction based on above:
They will be announcing a camera near the F3 original price point with the F65 sensor, i bet it will be called the F4k, compressed codec at 50mbps 1080p to internal cards, more or less the same s-log and 1.5g and 3G dual link outputs, ability to record 4k to their simoultaneously announced 4k raw recorder (that can be used on the F4k and the fs700). The 1080p shooting would have more advanced fs700 framerates without buffer restrictions, but the 4k option framerates will fall short at no more than 60i.

Of course I could be completely wrong, but that's my prediction. Fun to speculate then realize I'm wrong when it comes out...lol.

And what would you propose be a price for something like that?

I say at least $25k to compete with the C500. (plus of course ext. recorder and any paid options....)

I think you're right. Msrp for around 25k.

It will be great with revamped higher bitrate 50mbps codec, and option to record 4k externally but at that price as the Dragon's Den would say here in Canada, "I'm out".

I'll toss out my guess..

My guess is it will be a camera between the F3 and the F35 in price. I don't suspect it will be a direct replacement for the F3 but a step up in ability. Most likely 4k capable with an external recorder (not 4k internal). I could see 50mb 4:2:2 internal. My thought there is why design a 4k recorder with just one camera in mind (FS700)?

I would expect if they were designing a camera needing external 4k recording that the new recorder would work with both and would couple closely into the new cameras' body. Like the SR-R4 recorder nestles up against the back of the F65.

It makes sense to have 4k at multiple price points across the line. 4k isn't ready for home consumption but has its place in productions headed for the big screen. Sharing some hardware (such as the recorder) saves some development capital and time.

With the final days of shooting on film really coming I think Sony wants to position itself as the standard in the industry for image acquisition on large screen productions.

This is strictly speculation on my part.

I'll toss out my guess..

My guess is it will be a camera between the F3 and the F35 in price. I don't suspect it will be a direct replacement for the F3 but a step up in ability. Most likely 4k capable with an external recorder (not 4k internal). I could see 50mb 4:2:2 internal. My thought there is why design a 4k recorder with just one camera in mind (FS700)?

I would expect if they were designing a camera needing external 4k recording that the new recorder would work with both and would couple closely into the new cameras' body. Like the SR-R4 recorder nestles up against the back of the F65.

It makes sense to have 4k at multiple price points across the line. 4k isn't ready for home consumption but has its place in productions headed for the big screen. Sharing some hardware (such as the recorder) saves some development capital and time.

With the final days of shooting on film really coming I think Sony wants to position itself as the standard in the industry for image acquisition on large screen productions.

This is strictly speculation on my part.

Yep. Couldn't agree more with this conclusion. It's already been proven by that when you offer an upgrade path everyone's fancy is tickled to death, and in turn you will draw a much larger crowd.

The New F will be PERFECT for those needing a higher bitrate codec in order to meet certain broadcast minimum requirements, and those who want to future proof their investment and have the option of 4k once its available.

It is a genious approach by Sony and honestly kudos to them for making available such a flexible product!

I just think for anyone who only wants 4k - this will not be the solution for them, as it will be cost prohibitive but honestly I hope I am wrong. I am Sony's biggest fan!

There appear to be more signs that it is indeed a new camera by Sony but the new speculation is that perhaps it is a FULL FRAME video camera and .............
Hmmm, well I'm not under NDA and neither do I know anything that's not been posted publicly - so I remain free to speculate!

Can I ask where you've read this speculation, Dennis, and exactly what is being said?

It's made me think of something, a query Alister raised some months ago, and a very good query too! Basically, the FS700 uses 3840x2160 active pixels - or 8.3 megapixels. Yet Sony quote the chip as having 11.6 megapixels total, so what's the point of the extra 3.3 megapixels? It's way, way more than normally used for bordering of the active area.

At the time I suggested:
But what if the total area of the chip had a 2.35:1 aspect area? (The FS700 just cropping the central 16:9.) If we assume 2160 vertically, that would make 5076 horizontally, and a total of 10,964,160 photosites altogether for active area? Add on the extra for black level and noise sampling, and that matches 11.6M pretty closely.
So what if the announcement is this hypothetical true widescreen camera? Not simply cropped 4k, but retaining the full vertical resolution of 4k?

Complete speculation, yes, but does anybody have any other explanation for why the FS700 chip has so many photosites? Or why the mathematics should fit the 2.35:1 explanation so well?

It was speculation by a member on another forum. He only said it because lately I guess Sony released a bunch of full frame DSLR's.

Now your speculation is interesting. Sounds like the Canon XL2 16:9 chip all over again.

The implications of my speculation are that such could likely shoot 16:9 1080HD and 4k using s35 lenses, and such a 2.35:1 mode would need a wider coverage lens. Full frame 35mm should work well via an adaptor, and maybe later purpose designed lenses for those with seep pockets.......?

I'll toss out my guess..

My guess is it will be a camera between the F3 and the F35 in price. I don't suspect it will be a direct replacement for the F3 but a step up in ability. Most likely 4k capable with an external recorder (not 4k internal). I could see 50mb 4:2:2 internal. My thought there is why design a 4k recorder with just one camera in mind (FS700)?

I would expect if they were designing a camera needing external 4k recording that the new recorder would work with both and would couple closely into the new cameras' body. Like the SR-R4 recorder nestles up against the back of the F65.

It makes sense to have 4k at multiple price points across the line. 4k isn't ready for home consumption but has its place in productions headed for the big screen. Sharing some hardware (such as the recorder) saves some development capital and time.

With the final days of shooting on film really coming I think Sony wants to position itself as the standard in the industry for image acquisition on large screen productions.

This is strictly speculation on my part.

50Mbps is essential, but what would really cause a stir would be internal ProRes to SxS cards to get the camera competing with Alexa for episodic TV - an area where the added complexity of RAW workflows is often beaten out by the speed of ProRes 4:4:4.

I had a briefing today under NDA, so can't say anything really until October 30.

Sony definitely answers many of the issues raised around the F3 while preserving the F3 within the product line. Lots of excellent improvements and I think users will find much to praise.

Ned

50Mbps is essential, but what would really cause a stir would be internal ProRes to SxS cards to get the camera competing with Alexa for episodic TV - an area where the added complexity of RAW workflows is often beaten out by the speed of ProRes 4:4:4.

I suspect that is a low probability (prores). Sony has its own high quality codec and I can't see them adopting an outside standard. It would be totally out of character for them to do such a thing in my opinion.

Sony shake hands with Apple? Not bloody likely.

My speculation:
It is not going to be an upgrade to the F3, but a new camcorder placed above the F3, directly competing with the C500. As Canon answered the FS100 with the C100, Sony will probably answer the C500 with the F5. Expected the 50Mbps and like the C500 externally 4K recording. Also given the recent trend it will be more competitive priced than the Canon offering. If retains the FS700 chip and the analogy between the F3 and FS100, that could possibly means the inclusion of higher frame rates for the new baby.

Could be a new 4K codec and recorder?. The future will be HEVC. (Aka, h.265)

This codec which will be ratified by MPEG in Q1 of 2013. It contains specs for 2k, 4k and 8k video. Even has a 4k 3D spec.

HEVC (h.265) will be the first easily portable 4k codec that we will see. And, it will be the codec that will launch millions of new 4k TVs and cameras as well as provide 4k distribution to the home via cable, sat, blue ray 2 and web.

We know the FS700 has a firmware set for release soon. Could Sony also give us an external 4k HEVC recorder a few months before its final spec is ratified?

Could this be the very first Sony h.265 4k product?

Do any of you guys think Sony will implement a full frame sensor in the F series cams.
It would be nice to have 50Mbps 422 with a selectable higher bit rate like the nano flash

Do any of you guys think Sony will implement a full frame sensor in the F series cams.
It would be nice to have 50Mbps 422 with a selectable higher bit rate like the nano flash

No. There's not much demand for it, and it makes for a smaller choice of lenses in a market that is already limited by lens cost/availability. Most of all though, Sony has yet to ever mention full frame anywhere, for any camera.

Most of all though, Sony has yet to ever mention full frame anywhere, for any camera.

But what about these:

Sony NEX-VG900 (Full frame camcorder)
Sony SLT-A99 (Full frame DSLR)
Sony DSC-RX1 (full frame fixed compact)

It seems the only missing item in Sonys' full frame line-up now is a video camera with pro codec and inputs/outputs.

But what about these:

Sony NEX-VG900 (Full frame camcorder)
Sony SLT-A99 (Full frame DSLR)
Sony DSC-RX1 (full frame fixed compact)

It seems the only missing item in Sonys' full frame line-up now is a video camera with pro codec and inputs/outputs.

The cameras above are nothing to do with pro video. The A99 and the RX1 are stills cameras that have a video feature thrown in. The VG900 is a semi-pro camera designed to provide a conventional camcorder form factor with a video system like the currently available SLRs.
All three of them have front ends that are based on Sony's existing large volume full frame stills sensor. The methods of resolution reduction give results that fall far short of the F3's performance in terms of sampling artifacts. Any limitations of the F3's XDCAM on-board codec are easily overcome by external recorders connected to the SDI port. The compromises in the above cameras' front ends cannot be removed by any codecs.
Any progress towards a full-frame VIDEO camera with genuine professional performance would require a new sensor with resolution matched to the intended video standard, with the correct OLPF. Just like the super 35 sensor designed fro the F3 and FS100, rather than the market-led kludge of the VG10/20/30/900 using stills cameras sensors. Such a sensor would similarly not compromise low-light sensitivity as its phot-sites would inevitable be larger than those on a 24M pix stills sensor.
I feel that such a sensor would be:
a) very expensive as the world market would be quite low
and
b) some time away as there is probably a limited demand for full frame cameras.

Steve

p.s. I could be wrong, but remember, Sony is a company that only develops products that it can see a return from.

Ned, after briefing, are you going to buy one?

Do any of you guys think Sony will implement a full frame sensor in the F series cams.
It would be nice to have 50Mbps 422 with a selectable higher bit rate like the nano flash

God I hope not.

Uh.. Damn.. If this is it I will be putting down some cash soon myself! :)

I however think it is a nice prank on what someone would like to see.

God I hope not. The F3 rear EVF used as a main EVF, now that would be a step back to the dark ages.

God I hope not. The F3 rear EVF used as a main EVF, now that would be a step back to the dark ages.

+1 on that. It was just too funny to not share.

I guess you guys weren't fans of the good old Canon XL series?

You mean the camera that launched this very site...?!

Boy the good old days.

(I mean they are still pretty good don't get me wrong)