Thank you Glen! Yes I've seen that in the pdf, but I wasn't sure about if this is true.

Wait! What about AUDIO input provisions? As usual, treated like a red-headed stepchild ;)
They mention XLR inputs in passing, just a few words.

Cheers
Greg

What I love about the F55 is the Global Shutter. Finally...

But, what I'm concerned about for the XAVC codec is whether it supports 1080p60 in Intra-frame. If we could get both 1080p60 and Global Shutter and Intra-frame recording native 60p (not overcranked or etc without audio) this would hands down be the killer cam to own.

Unfortunately, looks like the F5 is still rolling shutter. If the tech could propagate down for global shutters, it'd only be better for everyone.

Jack I agree with you. I want also 1080p50/60 including audio. AVCHD 2.0 can do this so I hope it shouldn't be a problem for XAVC.

the 100Mbps 10bit option might be the best bet for that. If it's intra frame and 1080p60, that would be best.

AVCHD 2.0 at 28Mbps is not enough. The GH3's GOP based 50Mbps is better, but it's 4:2:0.

Edit:

Oh, OK, so Sony and Panasonic are in the same boat right now... The XAVC codec is not going to be in the cameras at launch, like the HPX600.

Also, F5 supports 60fps out of the box, but it's unclear if it's cranked or normal recording.

And since the spec hasn't been implemented yet, can we all wish for a 200Mbps Intra frame option in XAVC before AVC-Ultra comes out?

So I realize I'm probably alone in this but the real appeal to me with this camera is the addition of highspeed but unfortunately the camera isn't expected to be released until february and then the 180 and 240fps upgrades (on the f55) aren't expected to be released until a firmware update is out (which I'm betting won't be free looking at how sony has worked in the past and how arri ran their highspeed upgrade) So the price would have to be VERY competitive to make me want to switch away from my little f3.

I do like the looks of the lenses though, a full 2.0 6 piece set looks nice.

The lens set Looks very nice. The cameras too, but I'm happy with my Epic for the time being. Very curious about the price of the lens kit. $20-25.000 maybe for the full kit?

Yow. Sony means business. I do believe I will be upgrading.

So I realize I'm probably alone in this but the real appeal to me with this camera is the addition of highspeed but unfortunately the camera isn't expected to be released until february and then the 180 and 240fps upgrades (on the f55) aren't expected to be released until a firmware update is out (which I'm betting won't be free looking at how sony has worked in the past and how arri ran their highspeed upgrade) So the price would have to be VERY competitive to make me want to switch away from my little f3.

I do like the looks of the lenses though, a full 2.0 6 piece set looks nice.

firmware updates will not cost anything.

Wow the F55 sounds nice on paper. Look forward to a visit to Abel once it is there for a test run.

Given that these new models are new fully fledged 4K camera systems, it would follow that they warrant a new thread/forum separate from the F3.

Is this possible?

Let's wait until they are shipping at least before a new thread is started, in the meantime incase anyone missed the live chat on Facebook today wiht Sony, here is a link to a transcript if you are interested to check it out.

Please enjoy it while the link lasts: From today's #TheNewF Webchat - October 29th 2012 (http://tinyurl.com/8wmqpxs)


:D

So far, this is the best info regarding Sony's PMW-F55 and PMW-5.
Den Lennie from f-stop academy posted a hands-on introduction to the cameras.
Worth reading & Watching video included within the link!
Click below!

Sony F5 and F55 (From the horses mouth - not speculation...) - F-Stop Academy (http://www.fstopacademy.com/blog/sony-f5-and-f55-facts-not-speculation/?inf_contact_key=800b23f8e3eab30fa9f7baf12ca4fe69696d67fcd1495850f99459dbaab74987)

I also wonder what that viewfinder will cost. The "good ones" for the big ENG cameras costs around 8000GBP

Here's another link direct from Sony U.K.
Topic: PMW-F55
Video clip: 18 minutes in length!
Enjoy!

Introducing the PMW-F55 : Sony Professional (http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/article/broadcast-professional-camcorders-pmw-f55-video?SM=FB1&src=311012_video_Fintro_)

The lower cost Sony EVFs will most likely be less than the $8k of the C35W. I'd estimate the smaller one to be in the $2k region. Of course your not tied to Sony EVF's, you can use the HDMI port to output EVF overlays to a third party VF or monitor.

Hi Alister,

I think you will want a high quality VF on the F5 or F55. HDMI would not be my choice for a VF, I want all the functions of the camera I can get in my VF. But if the Sony color 3.5" is only $2K that would be great.

Do the new Sony EVF's use the SDI output and thus are they useable on other cameras (i.e. F3).

Do the new Sony EVF's use the SDI output and thus are they useable on other cameras (i.e. F3).

No. There's a proprietary viewfinder port on the upper, right side (dumb side) of the camera.

I believe I read it's a new format connector for Sony, digital in nature. To my knowledge, all HD EVF ports on Sony cams prior have carried analog component HD, including the F65.

There's a rumor (yeah, I know) that Sony has been making the OLED panel in the latest iteration of the Red Bomb EVF. Either way, both the new Sony DVF-EL100 OLED and the new Red Bomb are OLED panels at 1280x784. Previous to this last year's NAB, the Red Bomb finder was 720P LCOS. Red owners are raving about the new OLED EVF, and the previous LCOS based unit has taken quite a hit on the used market. Keep in mind even the 720P LCOS is much better than most people have ever put their eye to, I had one on my Red One and I miss it all the time. The Alexa's EVF is also 720p LCOS.

The Red OLED finder is $3900, so I think there's a great chance Sony's version will be a good amount cheaper (my guess, $2500-$2700 list, $2000 street?)

I suspect we're in for a real treat with the 720p OLED. I have the 17" Sony OLED PVM and it's one of my most coveted pieces of gear, bar-none.

No. There's a proprietary viewfinder port on the upper, right side (dumb side) of the camera.

I believe I read it's a new format connector for Sony, digital in nature. To my knowledge, all HD EVF ports on Sony cams prior have carried analog component HD, including the F65.


Nate is right. It is actually the same connector as on the PMW500/350/320 but uses a new digital interface. I tried to plug in an EVF from a 350 and the Sony guy from Japan told me not to because it wouldn't work.

I wondered whether the 3.5" EVF was the same panel as the 320/350 kit EVF but it actually appeared sharper when I tried it. Can't wait to see the OLED EVF, should be great. The Cynic in me wonders whether the new interface is to stop it poaching sales from Sony's existing high end EVFs!

Thanks Nate,

That is great news and a price that helps keep the camera kit in the ball park.

The Cynic in me wonders whether the new interface is to stop it poaching sales from Sony's existing high end EVFs!

Red did the same thing going back to the R1. Over the years, their own EVF scheme has been described by various Red employees on Red User as being an interface based on DVI, but at custom resolutions and custom pinouts.

Red said it was because they wanted to keep the processing hardware in the camera body, and make the EVFs/LCD monitors more simple and cheaper. However, it was the basis of some frustration, because in the early days, the EVF and the 5" LCD monitor were slightly different resolutions, and the camera didn't have the processing power to feed two slightly different resolutions to two devices and then 720p SDI at the same time.

So anyway, Sony might be taking the same approach. They obviously have some monster number crunching inside that camera body, why not use some of that power for the viewing system's benefit? (less processing in EVF=cheaper EVF)

In case fan-noise becomes a problem when the raw recorder is running full-out, I wonder if it will be possible to attach the RAW recorder to the camera body via some sort of cable? (so you can hide it around the corner or something if it's an issue for sound).

In case fan-noise becomes a problem when the raw recorder is running full-out, I wonder if it will be possible to attach the RAW recorder to the camera body via some sort of cable? (so you can hide it around the corner or something if it's an issue for sound).

I think an issue at those data rates is signal integrity. I know the link between the F65 and R4 recorders is optical, as is the link between the Alexa M and it's processing body.

In other words, it can be done, but not easily over copper, so it would probably cost.

Do the new cameras have 2 SDI outputs like the F3?
HDMI is not very attractive for monitoring , EVF, 3rd party recorders or really anything at all.

Do the new cameras have 2 SDI outputs like the F3?
HDMI is not very attractive for monitoring , EVF, 3rd party recorders or really anything at all.

Reports are they have 4 sdi outputs on 2 video busses. One pair for monitoring and one pair for external recording.

Reports are they have 4 sdi outputs on 2 video busses. One pair for monitoring and one pair for external recording.

The F55 has 4...after seeing this question last night I went looking for a pic of the right side of an F5, and I couldn't find one. The 4 on the 55 are needed for 4K monitoring.

So 55 has plenty, the 5?, not sure.

Yes the UK video on the F55 I believe shows 4 3-G-SDI ports but I have not seen any info on the F5.

Anyone have any new insight on pricing for the two? (purely speculative of course)

The F55 has 4...after seeing this question last night I went looking for a pic of the right side of an F5, and I couldn't find one. The 4 on the 55 are needed for 4K monitoring.

So 55 has plenty, the 5?, not sure.



Here is what I see on the F5 page on Sony's site (Sony | Showcase (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/show-highend/resource.solutions.bbsccms-assets-show-highend-F5.shtml#/output):))

This isn't a guarantee but to me it looks like you get the same connectors on both cameras.

-----------------------------------

The connections you need

The camera offers vital connections, including four HD-SDI jacks, HDMI®, USB, DC IN connection, a removable XLR audio module and a removable time code/genlock module. The XLR inputs accept balanced analog signals, provide 48-Volt phantom power and will accept four channels of AES/EBU digital audio with an expected firmware upgrade.

The connections you need
The camera offers vital connections, including four HD-SDI jacks, HDMI®, USB, DC IN connection, a removable XLR audio module and a removable time code/genlock module. The XLR inputs accept balanced analog signals, provide 48-Volt phantom power and will accept four channels of AES/EBU digital audio with an expected firmware upgrade.

I think a big (and very interesting) thing that perhaps a few people are missing - where these cameras are concerned - is that the F55 (on specs at least) brings us (for the first time) to S35mm-film parity (or better) in all aspects at a (potentially) broadly affordable price-point.

It gives us:

- a S35mm image format
- equivalent resolution to S35mm film
- equivalent dynamic range to S35mm film
- equivalent motion characteristics thanks to a global shutter exposure (just as we had with mechanical shutters on film cameras)
- a wider colour gamut than S35mm film
- a vastly higher sensitivity than S35mm film (for low-light shooting, and lighter/cheaper lens options)
- faster frame rates than we had with workhorse film cameras like the Arriflex 435
- a broader range of shooting formats to cater to a broader range of budgets (standard video codecs for lower budget productions, and 16-bit raw for high-end projects)
- a lighter weight and smaller form factor than even the smallest S35mm film cameras (allowing for smaller support gear, and a broader range of rigging possibilites)

Given that point of parity in all aspects, how much more is anyone going to need from a camera? Will cameras continue to get even better and out-spec the F55? Of course they will. But will there be any dire need to upgrade beyond a level of image quality and a feature-set that good? Not for long time. Not for a seriously long time (by digital standards at least).

Cinemas have only recently made the switch to digital en masse, and mostly to 2K projection (though 4K is slowly increasing). Having made that substantial investment in infrastructure, cinemas won't be upgrading further (to 8K projectors for example), for a long, long time. Which means a camera like the F55 is going to be relevant for a long time, much longer than the 1st and 2nd generation large-sensor digital cinema cameras before it.

Just as people have largely slowed their upgrading of DSLRs once the image quality and feature-sets reached a certain level of quality, we're now going to see a similar thing happen with these 3rd-Generation digital cinema cameras (can we give that an acronym? 'DCC' or something?). I'm going to go right out and call the F55 the first '3rd Generation' DCC. We've reached a new and fascinating point of camera development with its arrival. And the market is going to shift considerably from where it was before because of it.

Do the new cameras have 2 SDI outputs like the F3?
HDMI is not very attractive for monitoring , EVF, 3rd party recorders or really anything at all.

Both cameras have four SDI outputs. The F5 can output HD or 2K over these ports. The F55 can output 4K over all these ports together.

Andy

Nate is right. It is actually the same connector as on the PMW500/350/320 but uses a new digital interface. I tried to plug in an EVF from a 350 and the Sony guy from Japan told me not to because it wouldn't work.

I wondered whether the 3.5" EVF was the same panel as the 320/350 kit EVF but it actually appeared sharper when I tried it. Can't wait to see the OLED EVF, should be great. The Cynic in me wonders whether the new interface is to stop it poaching sales from Sony's existing high end EVFs!

The new EVF is 960x540, higher resolution and 10 times the contrast of previous LCD models. Even the C30WR, which you'll find on the F65. This and the new OLED EVF should be very impressive.

The new EVF is 960x540, higher resolution and 10 times the contrast of previous LCD models. Even the C30WR, which you'll find on the F65. This and the new OLED EVF should be very impressive.

Andy, does the 350 kinda fold out and unhinge itself so you can use it without the eyepiece?

I see the hinges on the mirror box, but I can't see if the bracketry lets it flip out 90º for direct viewing?

Also, I'm starting to guess the 350 is going to be the cheaper one and the 100 OLED is going to be the step up. Yes? No? Can't say?

Interesting. 960x540, half HD, the same as the Alphatron and Cineroid EVF's that use the same or similar panels to the retina iPhone.

The 350 mirror box opens either fully for direct viewing face on or the loupe tilts up for direct viewing from behind the camera via the mirror.

Andy, does the 350 kinda fold out and unhinge itself so you can use it without the eyepiece?

I see the hinges on the mirror box, but I can't see if the bracketry lets it flip out 90º for direct viewing?

Also, I'm starting to guess the 350 is going to be the cheaper one and the 100 OLED is going to be the step up. Yes? No? Can't say?

The LCD doesn't move, but the mirror box hinges up for viewing on the side.

The OLED evf will be pretty pricey, The LCD version will be cheaper for sure.

Andy

Anyone want to comment on the F55 sensor and if they think it is the new Q67 filter pattern or just regular bayer? I did ask Sony directly on their Facebook FanPage and was told they would not divulge any information about its sensor. Seemed like a tardy reply for a company looking to heavily compete in the super35mm market.

Sony's press release had 3 paragraphs of reference to the F65 and in the end only said the F55 would "deliver the same color filter with ultra wide color gamut as the F65 for true color reproduction" - but that could mean anything.

The press release indicates each camera features a new type of 4K Super 35mm image sensor with a 4096 x 2160 resolution (11.6M total pixels).

I did ask Sony directly on their Facebook FanPage and was told they would not divulge any information about its sensor. Seemed like a tardy reply for a company looking to heavily compete in the super35mm market.
Even more odd since it's already been divulged!!

Brian posted a very good link which explains it well in another thread - Sony’s PMW-F5 and F55: Defining CFA | CineTechnica (http://blog.abelcine.com/2012/11/01/sonys-pmw-f5-and-f55-defining-cfa/)

Basically, no, the F55 is not Q67 (as the F65 is), it's a normal Bayer 4k in geometry, so 3840x2160. [EDIT That should be 4096x2160, though it will also do quad-HD.] (Q67 has twice as many photosites, so 3840x2160 green, and as many again shared between red and blue. You really need to look at a diagram, but it means a green photosite for every output pixel, and easy reconstruction of red and blue from surrounding sites. Rows are at 45 degrees to the horizontal.)

So in that respect (4k Bayer) it's like the F5. How it differs is regarding the gamut of the filtration, it's theoretically capable of defining a greater range of colours, which makes it more suitable for high-end digital cinema, but may be overkill for display on such as LCD or OLED monitor screens. The other way it differs from the F5 is in that it's a global shutter. But do note that that comes at a price - reduced sensitivity compared with the F5.

David, thanks for your post and for pointing me to that article by Mitch. I felt the way that press release was worded it was easily going to be misconstrued as meaning something else but I didn't know enough about the CFA differences in-camera to be sure.

Yes I've seen the Q67 diagram and noted that pixels (photosites) are oriented in 45 degree rows. The diagonal on the F65 was 8000 pixels I believe while the horizontal and vertical counts were somewhere around 6000 x 3000.

So with these new 4096x2160 F5 and F55 sensors do you think we can expect a "theoretical" resolution of around 3.2k lines or perhaps slightly more? I read posts by Alister Chapman and Graeme Natress indicating bayer filter pattern sensors typically yield between 70-80% in sensor resolution as a rule of thumb. I'm just curious how these F's might perform on the charts.

Yes I've seen the Q67 diagram and noted that pixels (photosites) are oriented in 45 degree rows. The diagonal on the F65 was 8000 pixels I believe while the horizontal and vertical counts were somewhere around 6000 x 3000.
No, not true. Likewise it's misleading to call the F65 an "8k sensor" in my opinion. That infers something with dimensions of (about) 8,000x4,000 photosites, or 4x the number of a 4k sensor. In practice, it's got 2x the number and because of the Q67 nature can't really have a number put on it in the same convention as gets used for Bayer.

Think of it this way. Imagine black and white tiles on a bathroom floor, laid corner to corner across the width and length of the room. Now imagine the white tiles are green photosites, the black tiles are red and blue photosites. If you count the green tiles, you get 4096x2160 (laid tile corner to tile corner) and they are interspersed with another grid of 4096x2160 red and blue. Ask how many in total, and all you can realistically say is "2x4096x2160". A figure of 4096x4340 is just as valid as 8192x2160 - see why I don't like saying "8k"? :-)

It also follows that for a diagonal which goes the full height of the sensor the no of photosites must be 2160xsq rt 2, or about 3,050.
So with these new 4096x2160 F5 and F55 sensors do you think we can expect a "theoretical" resolution of around 3.2k lines or perhaps slightly more? I read posts by Alister Chapman and Graeme Natress indicating bayer filter pattern sensors typically yield between 70-80% in sensor resolution as a rule of thumb. I'm just curious how these F's might perform on the charts.
That's as good a figure as any. Practically, it's impossible to directly compare a Bayer with a theoretical 3 chip design, as the resolution will behave in a different manner. It will also depend on the image being looked at, and especially things such as whether it's monochrome or saturated colours. So if you look at a scene of saturated red, the definition is only going to be about 2k, if black and white, may be more like the 3.2k you suggest.

And yes, the F65 will be better, but we must be getting into a law of diminishing returns. I can certainly tell the difference between such as 720 and 1080 resolutions, and I'm willing to agree there is a place for 4k for digital cinema. (Though only the further forward rows will notice any difference compared to 1080.) But you may have to sit in the front one or two rows to really see the difference between 4k Bayer and 4k Q67. :-)

Yes I agree calling it 8k was misleading, and it lead some people to think that the F65 measured 8000 pixels diagonally including some published articles about it! But to measure 8000 pixels diagonally would have meant it was approximately a 7000 x 3700 sensor by traditional means which would have meant it was a 26MP sensor - which the F65 is definitely not.

http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/hingsberg/Sony-F65-Sensor-650x419.jpg

My theoretical resolution calculation for the F5/F55 is based on non-3CCD cameras and what has been determined by other "experts" as the 70-80% rule. For example the RED sensor in the Scarlet and EPIC is 5120x2700 and the EPIC in 5k mode resolves around 4000 lines of resolution while the Scarlet (still with the same sensor) can only shoot 24fps in 4k so it therefore only resolves around 3200 lines.

These values seem to fall in line with what one can expect resolution-wise from a bayer patter sensor so I am speculating the F5 & F55 will be around 3200 lines.

My theoretical resolution calculation for the F5/F55 is based on non-3CCD cameras and what has been determined by other "experts" as the 70-80% rule.
As said before, it's as good a figure as any, but I would qualify it at very least by saying it's the LUMINANCE resolution. With a 3-chip sensor, the actual sensor results will be totally independent of colour, saturation etc of the input. That's not true with such as a Bayer sensor, (same was true with pixel-shifting techniques).

Practically, the resolution will drop off gradually - you won't get a situation where it will resolve 3000lpph perfectly, but 3050 will just look grey. Hence at what point do you say resolution goes up to? Which brings in the whole subject of modulation transfer function or mtf.

Sorry - I know it's great to have simple cut and dried numbers for comparisons, but real life is not that simple! Best to think of the 70-80% figure (which I basically would agree with) as a rule of thumb rather than anything too exact.

And in a real world image the resolution will vary across the image depending on what the scene looks like. You might have one part of the image exhibiting a higher resolution than another because of the colour. A scene of a woodland in the summer with green leaves will have a different resolution to the same scene in Autumn with red leaves. So an average range is a reasonable compromise.

As David says, we are reaching an area of diminishing returns. Most cinemas in the UK are only 2K. The new standard for UHDTV is quad HD (3840x2160 or 2160p) and the new and very expensive 4K TV's like the new Sony use 8 mega pixel panels (3840x2160 pixels), not sure whether they class a pixel as a cluster of RGB emitters or a single R, G or B emitter. So while it is nice to have some oversampling to give some wriggle room in post, at the moment there are very few real world applications where you need more than a 4K horizontal pixel bayer sensor. Originally 1920x1080 was in part chosen for HD as this was felt to be as much as you needed for normal viewing conditions in both cinemas and at home, so 4K will only really be significantly better for those with excellent eyesight sitting closer than average to the screen.
I saw the Sony 80" 4K TV at IBC, and I I've seen plenty of demo's of 4K projection. While these have often impressed, it is often because of the quality of the cinematography. When I've seen less impressively shot 4K, to me it looks no different than HD so I have to wonder how much of the wow factor is down to putting good kit in good hands rather than just the resolution increase.

I think I'm going to be adding a 1/4 diffusion filter to my arsenal of filters for all this rez!

:p

Make sure the filter is suitable for 4K. Many conventional HD diffusion filters will excessively soften at 4K.

Personally, I think the Quad-HD standard makes a bit more sense than the somewhat larger 4K digital cinema standard - the resolution difference between the two is minimal, but downscaling and upscaling between them should be achievable with considerably less fuss (due to the simple 2x conversion) which makes sense to me.

That's a big part of the reason why UHDTV has been standardised at Quad HD. It will be so much easier to convert to HD than other odd sizes.

Personally, I think the Quad-HD standard makes a bit more sense than the somewhat larger 4K digital cinema standard - the resolution difference between the two is minimal, but .........
Just bear in mind that quad-HD is 16:9 aspect ratio, same as current HDTV standards (or 1.78:1). "4k" defines a horizontal resolution, generally considered to be 4096 (cf 3840 for quad-HD), and if you assume the same vertical figure (2180) that will mean a 4096x2160 chip with square photosites will have a wider aspect ratio: about 1.9:1. (Slightly wider than the common cinema standard of 1.85:1)

That may be considered more cinematic for projection cinema, and with appropriate shoot and protect guidelines whilst filming may be very easily cropped horizontally to give the 3840x2160 (16:9) format for optimum display on plasmas, LCDs etc.

FD Times has a 96 page pdf feature on the F5 and F55.

http://www.fdtimes.com/pdfs/articles/sony/FDTimes-Sony-F5-F55-v4.5-150dpi.pdf

Just bear in mind that quad-HD is 16:9 aspect ratio, same as current HDTV standards (or 1.78:1). "4k" defines a horizontal resolution, generally considered to be 4096 (cf 3840 for quad-HD), and if you assume the same vertical figure (2180) that will mean a 4096x2160 chip with square photosites will have a wider aspect ratio: about 1.9:1. (Slightly wider than the common cinema standard of 1.85:1)

That may be considered more cinematic for projection cinema, and with appropriate shoot and protect guidelines whilst filming may be very easily cropped horizontally to give the 3840x2160 (16:9) format for optimum display on plasmas, LCDs etc.

Absolutely, I'm thinking more in terms of TV-bound content.