Ned, after briefing, are you going to buy one?

Depends upon finances. I would very much like to buy one.

Depends upon finances. I would very much like to buy one.

Ain't that the catch-cry of the age!

New Tweet Friday 10/19- first time I have seen High Frame Rate

The Future, Ahead of Schedule | October 30, 2012 “High Frame Rate”

This is going to be interesting.

The new F54k right?

:p

There is no F54. That is an internet joke that went awry with people actually taking it seriously. I won't tell you what it is, but I will tell that the F54 it isn't.

Ned

There is no F54.
I read Dennis comment more as "F5 - 4k" than "F54", so the actual model number to just be "F5". No idea whether or not it's correct, but it would be logical.......

Yea the F54 was an internet joke that @hingsberg made, pretty good one too. How far is it from the real thing? We'll find out soon.

Patience, everybody. Oct 30 will be here before you know it.

I hope everyone also noticed Peter's tweet about high frame rate ;)

Ned

Here's a little glimpse:

Sony | Product Catalog Cameras - Cine Production (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-camerascineproduction/support.form.bbsccms-support-thefuture.shtml?XID=M:prosocial)

Here's a little glimpse:

Sony | Product Catalog Cameras - Cine Production (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-camerascineproduction/support.form.bbsccms-support-thefuture.shtml?XID=M:prosocial)

So it's going to be a Cinealta camera.

My presumptions:

- 4K capable, possibly externally. I doubt they would be promoting it as "the future" without 4K.
- S35 sized sensor.
- PL mount but hopefully interchangeable like the F3.
- High frame rates, given the FS700, I'm guessing at least 240fps at 1080p.

I'm wondering:
- XDCAM HD onboard for broadcast master recording or cinema proxies.
- Will there be a RAW option given the FS700 will eventually have this.
- Formfactor - PLEASE no more "palmcorder" bricks!
- Presuming it sits below the F65, where will the compromises be to keep it from stealing high end sales.

Price:
- Possibly more of a C500/Red competitor, coming in above the F3 in the product line.

Sony have already released the following info:

4K
50 Mb/s 4:2:2
High Frame Rates

...and the picture looks like it's got a similar PL adaptor to the F3,
...so most of your presumptions look spot on!

Sony have already released the following info:

4K
50 Mb/s 4:2:2
High Frame Rates

...and the picture looks like it's got a similar PL adaptor to the F3,
...so most of your presumptions look spot on!


Sounds expensive..

[QUOTE=Mike Marriage;1759923]So it's going to be a Cinealta camera.

I think you might be surprised!

Sounds expensive..

Sure does.

Based upon that new pic, it looks like a shoulder mount design, similar to the PMW-500. Not exact, but close. You can also see the vent ports.

+1 on the surprise

I don't know how much more Sony is going to let slip over the next week. But as I've been saying, we're looking at a big step forward.

Ned

Based upon that new pic, it looks like a shoulder mount design, similar to the PMW-500. Not exact, but close. You can also see the vent ports.

God I hope it's a shoulder mount and not a bloated, tall DSLR body like the C500...
Somebody give me a sign!

I think you might be surprised!

...more than one camera maybe. Looking forward to being surprised.

Let's hope we are reaching a point where cameras will be "good enough" and we can stop buying new ones every 2-3 years. Much like has happened in audio.

Does anybody else think the camera in the picture has a metal body? Definitely a step up from the F3 if that's the case. And probably $20k+.

...more than one camera maybe. Looking forward to being surprised.

Let's hope we are reaching a point where cameras will be "good enough" and we can stop buying new ones every 2-3 years. Much like has happened in audio.

I believe it has already happened in 2006.

Judging from that picture it looks like it is a new camera with non-removable lens.

It's the Scarlet story all over again.

Those who have seen it say it is definitely NOT a fixed lens camera.

Those who have seen it say it is definitely NOT a fixed lens camera.

That statement makes me chuckle.

https://twitter.com/CineAltaNews/status/260503974266949632

Just now on twitter

Judging from that picture it looks like it is a new camera with non-removable lens.


You just like making stuff up, don't you? :-)

There's a PL mount ear clearly visible in the pic.

+1 on the surprise

I don't know how much more Sony is going to let slip over the next week. But as I've been saying, we're looking at a big step forward.

Ned

Ned, can you speak about any upcoming F3 firmware updates? Is there one coming? Just before the NewF twitter post, Peter mentioned a firmware update.

Peter told me last week that there will be 1.5 firmware update, the date of which and content of which he would not discuss.

So while I am totally in the light on the NewF, I am totally in the dark on F3 firmware.

Ned

That statement makes me chuckle.

Why's that?

If it is 1920x1080 ( not to mention 4K)at 422 50MBs, isn't still much more compressed than Pro Res 422 at 117 MBs or even LT at over 80? Does this mean its only 8 Bit to the card?

I haven't worked with the Alexa, but isn't that Pro Res right to the SxS card. Sounds like my new Samurai might still have a job?

I haven't worked with the Alexa, but isn't that Pro Res right to the SxS card. Sounds like my new Samurai might still have a job?

I'd say yes. 8 bit MPEG2, even at 50mbit is not quite like 10 bit ProResHQ.

It's looking though like there are going to be some interesting Sony piggyback recorder options though, especially if they follow some of what they've done on the F65. I've been reading F65 manuals all night, trying not to get my hopes up too much with what that camera does in 1080p modes.

Yes better than 4:2:0 35, but not a huge difference. If Alexa can record Pro Res why in the world would Sony leave that out? Electronics can't be that complicated if a Samurai costs $1600.

I think you might be surprised!

I hope Sony have corresponding lens announcements too - that would be a nice surprise.

In the past they have made some great "kit" lenses at excellent price points. The lens on the PMW350K is optically outstanding for the price and the standard B4 allows you to hire specialist lenses when required.

They have already made a start with the F3 - the 3 primes and the zooms but a compact T2.8 18-85 ish zoom would be great. The prime set is also a little plasticy and needs greater range.

Lots of surprises are coming for sure.

Yes better than 4:2:0 35, but not a huge difference. If Alexa can record Pro Res why in the world would Sony leave that out? Electronics can't be that complicated if a Samurai costs $1600.

It isn't an issue with technology. Sony could implement it easily. The challenge is for them to admit any other company invents something worth using. Sony doesn't do that very well. That is why I consider it a low probability you will see a CODEC in any Sony camera that Sony didn't have a hand in developing.

There are often questions of "good" or "good enough". 50Mbps 4:2:2 MPEG2 answers the C300 directly and brings the internal codec to broadcast specs. Even the PMW-200 has implemented this codec. "Good enough" for anything for which the C300 is "good enough."

Sony licensing ProRes from Apple? Only slightly more chance than Samsung licensing anything from Apple ;)

As Andy said, be prepared for some surprises.

Ned

As Andy said, be prepared for some surprises.
Ned

Get Ready For a Surprise! - Total Recall (4/11) Movie CLIP (1990) HD - YouTube
At 1:30 min
;)

So it sounds like it´s more than one camera coming. And maybe a fixed lens camcorder, too, as Alister hints. Mmmmh, a Mini F23 at the price slightly above the F3 sounds delicious!

I still keep thinking of the discrepancy between the number of used photosites and the actual number on the FS700 chip. Why? It seems highly likely that one chip was developed with an element of future proofing - use it in a simpler fashion in the FS700, and make fuller use of the capabilities in a future camera. So could that be what we're about to see here?

The only explanation I could previously think of was that it could mean the true shape of the chip was 2.35:1, the FS700 only making use of the 16:9 centre. But as another thought, if the extra photosites were evenly distributed around the core 3840x2160 (and not just to the sides) it would enable film-type viewfinding of outside the active picture area. Very desirable.

I see the 50Mbs codec and 4k to an external recorder as highly likely - but the cryptic comments from those in the know seem to imply more than the obvious.....?

Ah well, we'll know for real soon - but fun to guess and speculate in the meantime!

I still keep thinking of the discrepancy between the number of used photosites and the actual number on the FS700 chip. Why? It seems highly likely that one chip was developed with an element of future proofing - use it in a simpler fashion in the FS700, and make fuller use of the capabilities in a future camera. So could that be what we're about to see here?

The only explanation I could previously think of was that it could mean the true shape of the chip was 2.35:1, the FS700 only making use of the 16:9 centre. But as another thought, if the extra photosites were evenly distributed around the core 3840x2160 (and not just to the sides) it would enable film-type viewfinding of outside the active picture area. Very desirable.

I see the 50Mbs codec and 4k to an external recorder as highly likely - but the cryptic comments from those in the know seem to imply more than the obvious.....?

Ah well, we'll know for real soon - but fun to guess and speculate in the meantime!

The F65 chip has quite a bit of extra pixels around the outside of active area that they use for on-the-fly black balancing, etc.

I suspect that that might be a new direction for Sony in general.

The F65 chip has quite a bit of extra pixels around the outside of active area that they use for on-the-fly black balancing, etc.
Yes, it's quite normal for all chips to have some unused photosites around the edge, the point about the quoted spec for the FS700 chip is that it's far more than would be expected. For example, the following quote is from the C300 specs:
Effective Pixels
Approx. 8.29 megapixels (3840 x 2160)

Total Pixels
Approx. 9.84 megapixels (4206 x 2340)
Now if accept that even if the FS700 only uses 3840x2160 like the C300, a 4k product may use 4096x2304 (9.44 megapixels), and the 9.44:9.84 ratio is roughly what I'd expect with the remainder being for black compensation etc as you say.

So why is the FS700 chip so many more? Why 11.6 megapixel in total instead of about 9.8?

The camera is based around a 11.6MP 'Super-35mm' sensor. The Super 35mm format is 13.3mm x 23.6mm this is very nice....

.... this might confirm my suspicion of being switchable between FF and S35.

.... this might confirm my suspicion of being switchable between FF and S35.

If it is going to be a professional lens mount such as PL there is little chance it will be FF. There is very little PL glass that will cover FF.

.... this might confirm my suspicion of being switchable between FF and S35.
I don't see how. It's very likely the s35 area will be covered by about 9.8 megapixels, if the same sensor as the fs700 is used (11.6mp) the extra are only roughly 20% more area, well short of the doubling that would be needed for FF. This is aside from any considerations of how the read mechanism would work and lens implications.

But spread around the outside edge of the active 9.8mp, that extra 20% would be what would be required to give a non-recorded viewfinding option, so, as with film, you could see such as mic booms coming into shot BEFORE they impact on the actual recorded picture.

There are too few FF lenses in PL mount, and a switchable design would only mean caviates on both modes. Plus the Sony Facebook page is called SonySuper35. So I think it's safe to assume what the sensor size is. BTW the Facebook image is now showing more.

Andy

..I know, I know, I'm just playing along with my photoshop image job.. which by the way has landed on the pages or RED recently.

F5 and F55:
Sony | Showcase (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/show-highend/)

Prices TBA

Looks very nice, but you're right without a price it is hard to say if this would be a gamechanger for me.

Need some photos here in this thread too:

http://www.hingsberg.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/sonylenses.jpg

F5
http://www.hingsberg.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/F5-transparent.jpg

Super-sampling: Spectacular HD, 2K or 4K
4K/2K RAW recording option
The future is built in
Vast exposure latitude
Viewfinders as revolutionary as the camera
Optional shoulder rig
Modularity and versatility
Choice of recording formats
High speed shooting at up to 120 fps in 2K
High-speed SxS PRO+ media cards
Real world workflows
Incredible flexibilty: PL-mount, FZ-mount and still lenses
Sony CineAlta PL-mount prime lenses: A new generation
More than just a pretty interface
The connections you need
Long-life Olivine Battery

http://www.hingsberg.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/thenewf.jpg

Does anybody have a picture of the right side of the camera? My question is, if the F5 has a zoom rocker like the F3 so I could use the Sony SCL-Z18X140 Power Zoom Lens when needed?

Does anybody have a picture of the right side of the camera? My question is, if the F5 has a zoom rocker like the F3 so I could use the Sony SCL-Z18X140 Power Zoom Lens when needed?

Yes, that power zoom lens is specifically mentioned as a lens to be used with the new cameras. It's listed in this pdf:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/show/highend/pdf/F5_Camera.pdf