I need to get on with Coloring S/w soon & wish to know which monitor options would be best ... & What size should i go in for table top monitoring while coloring footage !

Hi, Roger.

From my limited knowledge, this topic is a bit of an endless rabbit hole. I think your question is too generic and lacks specifics to your setup, workflow, and final output, so it's difficult to answer.


The size of the monitor can be relative to the destination of your workflow. If your final product is internet videos, then the argument can be made that you don't need anything larger than 24 or 27" monitor calibrated to an Adobe RGB color space.

If your destination is HD broadcast for a local network, you'll want a color-accurate monitor with Rec 709 calibration, and arguably, a large HDTV for reference to see what your CC might look like on a regular TV.


And often, the calibration is just as (if not more) important than the panel itself. Proper calibration is key.


You'll run into questions like types of calibration, types of calibrators, panel technology types, computer-based monitors or video monitors, etc.

(This is all stated as I understand it. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)



Definitely search this forum for this topic. There are several threads. You can start here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/view-video-display-hardware-software/503856-accurate-monitor-decent-price.html

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/view-video-display-hardware-software/510241-calibrating-video-accuracy.html


That being said, what is your workflow? What is your output destination?

All my research (and by research, I mean looking at the responses to posts like the one that started this thread here and on "other forums") points to the sad conclusion that right now, you cannot get a reliable, professional, accurate setup for less than around $2500-$3000 (that's USD).

You need the monitor, you need a way to output to it (Matrox box or similar--no more firewire to DV cam with HD), and the calibration.

I would love to be proven wrong as I would love a monitor I could use both in post for accurate HD color correction and field use for judging a camera image.

All my research (and by research, I mean looking at the responses to posts like the one that started this thread here and on "other forums") points to the sad conclusion that right now, you cannot get a reliable, professional, accurate setup for less than around $2500-$3000 (that's USD).

You need the monitor, you need a way to output to it (Matrox box or similar--no more firewire to DV cam with HD), and the calibration.

I would love to be proven wrong as I would love a monitor I could use both in post for accurate HD color correction and field use for judging a camera image.

This is a great monitor to use for field and table. It is a little heavy but you can get a VESA mount for putting it on a C-stand. I wish it was less expensive but the image quality is really good.

Sony PVM-1741 OLED Picture Monitor (17") PVM-1741 B&H Photo

I need to get on with Coloring S/w soon & wish to know which monitor options would be best ... & What size should i go in for table top monitoring while coloring footage !

We need a lot more info before any reasonable suggestions can be offered. Tell us more about your workflow and what your final output is used for.

OUCH!

And I was only thinking of the HP Dreamcolor or one of the Ezios (around $2500) + Matrox card.

I don't trust computer video cards for color grading.

I strongly recommending using a proper SDI monitor and SDI interface on the computer.

The plus side of using a true video monitor with SDI is the ability to use it in the field with your video cameras.

The image of the little Sony OLED monitor is stunning. But not cheap.

Yes, normally I would agree absolutely.

HOWEVER, the monitors I mentioned have been specifically singled out for their use in this area. The dreamcolor is, for some strange reason, allegedly deadly accurate for video work, and some Ezios can be calibrated to a Rec 709 colorspace.

I'll let some early adopters debug the workflow before I jump in. :)

I did some quick reading and it looks like there are some bugs in how the monitors handle 10bit color from certain video cards such as the Quadros I use with Media Composer.

I'm sure. Get what you pay for and all that. As for early adopters, I believe both the Dreamcolor and Ezios have been out for a while now?

I need to get on with Coloring S/w soon & wish to know which monitor options would be best ... & What size should i go in for table top monitoring while coloring footage !

Best "value" I've found is the Flanders Scientific LM-2140W. (http://www.shopfsi.com/FSI-21-5-Inch-HD-Broadcast-Monitor-p/lm-2140w.htm) There are reasons to use an actual broadcast monitor instead of a computer monitor for this work. One of those reasons is the real-time waveform monitor, vectorscope, and other monitors. It's nearly impossible to do decent color correction (let alone creative color grading) without these tools.

As to size, you need something big enough to let you easily see the image. For me I want at least a 20" diagonal screen -- I'm viewing it from 24" away so this is decently big. If the screen was to be further away, I'd want it to be proportionally bigger.

That said I've heard from people who color grade on 7" monitors meant for on camera use. And people using 55" plasma TVs hung on the wall. It just has to be a size sufficient so that you can see into the shadows and avoid crushing detail you want to keep, etc.

Yeah, that's another one I've read/heard about.


As for grading on a 7". . .do you have specific models in mind? wondering if they run any cheaper than these other solutions.

I recently acquired a 5.6" 056WP TV Logic field Monitor for my C300...

I was finding it to be very different ion terms of color/picture output when pitted against the CC300 own LCD. I wonder which is correct & how to calibrate TVlogic's display to give a reliable output.

I am unable to use the same since i cant rely on TVL on field !!!

Um, Chris to Mother Earth...............

You still haven't answered the very important questions asked of you by previous posters.

Without that info, everyone is flying blind, and that's pretty dangerous, lots of big mountains out there.

IMHO, you ain't going to get anywhere near decent colour on anything less than a 20" screen, no matter who makes it.

I seriously doubt you'll ever get a camera LCD and a 5.6" anything to be even within a bulls roar of accurate, no matter what you do, so seems like something of a fools errand trying.

Where is this video coming from, using what, workflow what and with what and what screen(s) are you watching it on, and where is it going?

No map, engines, wheels, seats or controls = no flight.


CS

C300 doesn't have bars it can output to the TV Logic and then just. . .do a manual calibration procedure by eye?

Sharing my experiences on this:

I've owned a Dreamcolor for a few years. As a studio monitor connected via DVI, it's a well-documented performer, with 30 bit performance. As a location monitor via HDMI, it's complicated. You need the right interface box to process the incoming signal to activate the Dreamcolor engine. There's a white paper on the HP site about this. The various boxes hover around the $500 mark. You can still work with either an HDMI source or SDI via HDMI converter if you have one, and the image quality is OK, but it's not taking advantage of the goodness of the Dreamcolor processing.

I will also add the following: I bought mine refurb from HP directly. It died after 15 months, 3 months out of warranty. HP was no help at all, they don't offer service for it. Nor would any third party service shop I contacted. I even tried to activate that one year extension on warranty through my credit card, which took a lot of paperwork but finally got rejected because they don't cover refurbs, even factory direct ones. The monitor still sits forlornly in my garage--I find it tough to accept that I have a big expensive brick on my hands, but I do. I recommend either purchasing a warranty extension, or not buying this monitor at all.

I now use a Flanders 24" monitor and am very happy with it. The features set and I/O is much better suited for location work. I considered the PVM 24" but I had heard from some DIT's that it is essentially "too good" with the blacks, it resolves more than most monitors and thus you can get fooled that something is in there that may not reproduce elsewhere.

As far as a grading monitor--if you are inclined, you can get a used broadcast HD CRT for a song!!

I can't quite see grading off a 7". It just seems like eyestrain in the making. Especially if you get into windows and keys and the like--just too hard to see small details.

Which CRTs are you referring to? I remember back in the "old days" of the early/mid 2000s seeing 8 or 9 inch CRTs commonly used with F900s and such, but I will swear that last time (and it was fairly recently) that I searched for those on ebay, they were still going for $2000! That's one hell of a song. Like, a "November Rain" or something. I would imagine larger monitors would be even worse.

Charles are you using the Flanders 24" DVI, or SDI out of the edit machine?

Sorry to hear about your experience with HP I had similar experience with a laptop and stopped buying from them.

Sorry my bad :

- I produce documentary for Broadcasts
- I also hire equipment to Film crews & they do desire setup of Pro Grade & before I let out the equipment on rent i wish to set them straight right.
- I also run a edit studio where I need to get Best color grading monitor as I am investing into Da Vinci Resolve & Element from Tangent

As for 56WP TVlogic, i did try with Color Bars but the monitor does give me various color options in terms of temperatures which baffles me further. so needed help as to how & what to do to get right color thru my TVlogic atleast

Paul:

I use the Flanders on location, as a production reference monitor. I have a JVC 17" HD CRT in my edit setup that I've had since around 2006. It serves its purpose. I used to lug it out to shoots, an exhausting proposition! I was going to retire the Dreamcolor to the edit room, but oh well. If anyone thinks they can do anything with it, it's yours for, say, $50 plus shipping.

Thanks Charles,

I will look into the Flanders for my edit station since my CC system needs upgrading.

I should also mention the Sony PVM 2541, which is $500 more than the Flanders but it is an OLED, and has an amazing image. The blacks are to die for. In some ways they are too good--you may see values on that monitor that won't reproduce on most other monitors. It's sort of ahead of its time and that's why I didn't go that route at the moment.

Bruce also pointed out below the 21" version of the Flanders, which is their latest model and I've heard good things. Quite a bit cheaper than the 24" and may work just as well for many.

Ok, Chaz, I'm gonna do it:

Anything in the uber low cost realm that you could come even close to recommending? talking flat screen here, as I'm sure that 17" CRT is a monster. But just in case, could you tell me the model of the CRT?

I'm not looking to offer myself as a pro colorist. This would be for personal short projects, maybe a public screening via projector things or HDTV at a fest, things like that. Maybe on those rare occasions I edit for pay, if I need to color correct something. But again, this is never (so far) broadcast. . .internal use for corporations or web stuff only.

Let me give an example: right now I have a Sony PVM14m2u. SD CRT with P22 phosphors. Recommended as pretty damn good, even for color correction, in SD. Used it for all my SD projects, seen 'em on TVs via DVD, seen em at fests, always looks pretty much like I graded it. This is what I'm after in HD land. So, any low-end recommendations?

How are these - ColorEdge CG276 | EIZO (http://www.eizo.com/global/products/coloredge/cg276/index.html)

Any experience with them

How are these - ColorEdge CG276 | EIZO (http://www.eizo.com/global/products/coloredge/cg276/index.html)

Any experience with them

This would make it a no go for me:

Wide Gamut Coverage (typical) Adobe RGB: 97%

It is a RGB monitor. In my opinion you should stick with a monitor that works in the colorspace of video when using it for video. Also having a monitor with video tools such as waveform and vectorscope built in are valuable for color correction.

This would make it a no go for me:

Wide Gamut Coverage (typical) Adobe RGB: 97%

It is a RGB monitor. In my opinion you should stick with a monitor that works in the colorspace of video when using it for video. Also having a monitor with video tools such as waveform and vectorscope built in are valuable for color correction.

Thats why I am puzzled ... what monitors do pro's use for Video Grading !

--- Its specs say :
Preset Modes Color Mode (Custom, Adobe RGB, sRGB, Rec709, EBU, SMPTE-C, DCI, Calibration)

Panel
Type IPS
Size 27" / 68 cm (684 mm diagonal)
Native Resolution DisplayPort, DVI: 2560 x 1440 (16:9 aspect ratio)
HDMI: 1920 x 1080 (16:9 aspect ratio)
Display Size (H x V) 596.7 x 335.6 mm
Pixel Pitch 0.2331 x 0.2331 mm
Grayscale Tones DisplayPort: 1024 tones (a palette of 65281 tones)
DVI, HDMI: 256 tones (a palette of 65281 tones)
Display Colors DisplayPort: 1.07 billion from a palette of 278 trillion
DVI, HDMI: 16.77 million from a palette of 278 trillion
Viewing Angles (H / V, typical) 178°, 178°
Brightness (typical) 350 cd/m2
Recommended Brightness for Calibration 120 cd/m2 or less
Contrast Ratio (typical) 1000:1
Response Time (typical) 6 ms (Gray-to-gray)
Wide Gamut Coverage (typical) Adobe RGB: 97%
Video Signals
Input Terminals DVI-D 24 pin, DisplayPort (with HDCP), HDMI (with HDCP)
Digital Scanning Frequency (H / V) DisplayPort, DVI: 26 - 89 kHz, 23.75 - 63 Hz (VGA Text: 69 - 71 Hz)

HDMI: 15 - 68 kHz, 23.75 - 61 Hz

Go with one of the monitors mentioned above such as the Flanders or the Sony.

We have both the 17" and 24" flanders, the 24" JVC and a 32" Ikegami (all HDSDI and DVI too).
I think the flanders is the best over all package (scopes and accurate image) for the money.
I have seen the Sony OLEDs and they look fab, but like Mr Papert said,
you have to get used to it and learn what it shows might not be what you see
anywhere else.

From all I've read when looking at the HP Dreamcolor, many ship unusable and they seem
to have a very short lifespan. Accuracy is great, but if it is broken and/or can't be fixed,
who cares?

As always, YMMV.

Go with one of the monitors mentioned above such as the Flanders or the Sony.

I am bit nerved here as neither Flendar or sony available here. Eizo seems ready available ... Why should i use them : Pardon my ignorance on the subject ... Pl enlighten. Tx

I am bit nerved here as neither Flendar or sony available here. Eizo seems ready available ... Why should i use them : Pardon my ignorance on the subject ... Pl enlighten. Tx

It does complicate things if the right tools are not available to you in your area. If Eizo is what is available to you then the choice becomes easier.

At a minimum I want a monitor with waveform and vectorscope (neither of these are on the Eizo). A 10bit display panel is a priority if it doesn't put the price out of reach (Eizo is OK here).

I also recommend using HD-SDI as your input with a proper HD-SDI output card in your computer (Not on the Eizo).

Why I don't consider HDMI professional:

HDMI is on its way to be the standard in short distance video transmission in the consumer segment and in computer displays. HDMI also comes with a lot of baggage not needed for the application of color correction such as DHCP and various colorspace modes such as RGB/YUV. All of this extra stuff can lead to problems in the signal chain between the media in the computer and the monitor (as users with the HP monitors are seeing). I'm also not a fan of using a computer's video card to give me a honest representation of what I'm looking at. Perfectly fine for editing. Not OK for color correction/finishing in my opinion. Far too many ways that image can get skewed in the software on the computer. I want a dedicated video output module from a vendor that does professional video such as AJA or BlackMagic. I want that signal to be transmitted in a professional broadcast accepted format (HD-SDI).

These are things that are a priority for me and how I've chosen to do business. This is this is the basis of why I recommend using a true broadcast monitor. There are many other and perfectly valid thoughts and opinions on the subject. This is just how I do it.

Thats why I am puzzled ... what monitors do pro's use for Video Grading !

Pros use production monitors. Not computer monitors. Production monitors (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ns=p_OVER_ALL_RATE|1&ci=2199&N=4294591188+4277998768&srtclk=sort). They come from the usual suspects -- Panasonic, JVC, Sony, etc. and companies you've never heard of like Flanders Scientific, Marshal Electronics, Ikegami, etc. They have tighter requirements than TVs and computer monitors, and they are made in lower volumes, therefore they cost more. But in this case, you usually get what you pay for.

Pros use production monitors. Not computer monitors. Production monitors (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ns=p_OVER_ALL_RATE|1&ci=2199&N=4294591188+4277998768&srtclk=sort). They come from the usual suspects -- Panasonic, JVC, Sony, etc. and companies you've never heard of like Flanders Scientific, Marshal Electronics, Ikegami, etc. They have tighter requirements than TVs and computer monitors, and they are made in lower volumes, therefore they cost more. But in this case, you usually get what you pay for.

In tyhe B&H link you gave does incudes this one : Production & Display Monitors | B&H Photo Video (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?atclk=Brand_Eizo&ci=2199&Ns=p_OVER_ALL_RATE|1&N=4294591188+4277998768+4291465174)

BTW whats wrong with this one : ColorEdge CG276 | EIZO (http://www.eizo.com/na/products/coloredge/cg276/index.html#tab02)

Would TVLogic's be good too http://www.tvlogicusa.com/product/product.php?model=XVM-175W

In tyhe B&H link you gave does incudes this one : Production & Display Monitors | B&H Photo Video (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?atclk=Brand_Eizo&ci=2199&Ns=p_OVER_ALL_RATE|1&N=4294591188+4277998768+4291465174)

That is a good monitor for a different kind of production. Its strengths aren't going to be video production. It is first and foremost a monitor for the production of graphic arts. It lacks the tools and features of a video production monitor.

Would TVLogic's be good too TVLogic ? 17" 1920x1080 Color Critical Grade 1 LCD monitor (http://www.tvlogicusa.com/product/product.php?model=XVM-175W)

Would TVLogic's be good too TVLogic ? 17" 1920x1080 Color Critical Grade 1 LCD monitor (http://www.tvlogicusa.com/product/product.php?model=XVM-175W)

Now that is a step in the right direction.

Have you guys tried this one?

Blackmagic Design 17" SmartView HD Studio Monitor

They say you want a 10-bit monitor. That appears to be 6-bit. Maybe a good field monitor though.

Getting back to this thread for input prior to a purchase. I really like the Flanders but only the LM-2461W is 10 bit all the others are 8 bit. And the Sony OLED I am told need calibrating often. Flanders does not need calibration from all the info I have read and videos viewed, you send it back and they calibrate once every couple of years. Would be nice to spend a little less since the card is also $1500 on top of the monitor. So options welcome?

There are a few card options. Which do you think from experience using them works best to get SDI 10 bit from my Mac Pro?

Plan on making this purchase before the end of the year and just want to not feel I missed any options.

Edit: My mistake, the Flanders also has a 17" that is 10 bit and from what I am reading is very very good. Now to talk with Flanders.