Hi,

I usually shoot a lot of stuff on location with loads of people passing by and external sounds, so now that I´m planning on replacing my videomic pro for something more capable as I was wondering what is the most irectional mic out there under us$600 that will allow me to isolate my subjects' voices.

thanks in advance

Rafa

While a high quality mic is worthwhile, I suspect your issue is placement rather than the mic itself. No matter how much you spend, an on-camera mic audio will only good enough for ambient sound. ( 'nat sound' as some producers call ill it ) A boom (w/ experienced op) or a lav on the person(s) speaking would a better remedy..

I know you're TRYING to help, but I've asked a specific question and it's being diverged. All I want to know is which is the most directional kic under us$600.

Audio-Technica AT8035 - Shotgun Microphone AT8035 B&H Photo

Sennheiser ME67/K6P - Super-Cardioid Spot Shotgun Capsule

Sony ECM-674/9X Electret Condenser Shotgun Microphone ECM674/9X

Many thanks!

I'm sure he was trying to help, but I totally get the your question wasn't answered part...so I hope you consider this reply helpful.

Maybe he should have said unless you are within one foot or less of your subject speaking, a better mic probably won't sound any better than your VMP. Personally I don't think I would spring for 600 knowing that fact. Before you take the plunge remember that "zoom" mics don't work like a zoom lens. With video you push in past something you don't want to see and its gone. Even a directional mic will pick up SOME sound from all directions, and usually the loudest thing makes the recording whether you want it or not-even if it is behind you!

FWIW I like the ME67 best out of the three mentioned, but if we are talking about the ultimate directional mic I like the Sennheiser MKH-816 the best, and use them extensively for live sports television. its "reach" is unmatched IMO, but it is well beyond your $600 budget and I *still* wouldn't consider using it on camera for interviews.

I do understand where all you guys are coming from but apart from the logic of microphone placement I´m sure there is a reason why some people pay more on mics that specifically have a more directional pattern, otherwise microphone placement would be all that mattered. Having that in mind and taking in consideration I will use a Zoom H4N plugged into the cameras' minijack (for reference sound so that I can sync later with what the Zoom captured) and have the shotgun mic connected to the H4N via XLR (on a boompole or on the camera, depending on the circumstance), are the mics being discussed here reliable to isolate sound sources? On a worst case scenario, say I´m filming a dialog between 2 actors near a busy street. Would getting one of these mics very close to the actors' face isolate his speech from the cars' sounds? I don´t mean completely delete the cars' sounds, I mean make the actors' speech perfectly understandable? Again, bare in mind I´m painting a very worst case scenario here just so we can be objective.

The best thing you can do in your situation is to hire a professional sound person and let them work with you and advise you on what you need. We can offer opinions but with the importance of good audio being what it is you need to hear the difference for yourself before making a capital decision.

Spend a couple hundred dollars on a pro sound person and make the right decision the first time. It will be far cheaper in the long run.

Sorry, guys. I don´t mean to offend anyone here and I´m really greatly appreciated by all the input, but everybody seems to be having a REAL hard time giving me a direct answer for a very direct question.

By now you´ve all managed to get across that I DO need to let the professionals do their work to get the best results, but there are LOADS of small types of projects where it´s just ridiculous to hire someone. So, lets say you need ONE MIC to be self sufficient for your SMALL day to day stuff (little personal projects, non paid gigs, etc). What I´m asking is, if I had to choose ONE MIC for these small projects, where should I put my money?

I think you may be missing my point.

I'm not saying to hire an audio person for every job. What I am saying is to hire one for an afternoon and have them advise you on what you need for your kit when you are rolling solo. Do sound tests using his/her gear and listen for yourself and see if you like the results. From there make a buying decision.

Sadly, here in Brazil getting one's hands in good equipment is expensive, even for testing. That is exactly why I tend to buy from the US at least SOME of it so that I can be as self reliable as possible. The price I will pay to test these mics in here it´s how much it will cost me to buy a new one in the US.

Rafael,

What types of projects do you mostly do? It may be that your best option may not be a mic that is the most directional. It sounds like you think you need a long shotgun which may be the case. But if you are mostly trying to mic a single person in a crowded area, you might be better with a lav placed on the person. While a long shotgun could work on outdoor shoots, indoors it may sound horrible even though the pattern may look very directional.

Also, for long shotguns keep in mind that they are long and if you do mount them on your camera, they might require you to get an alternative mount to get them higher up so they don't get into your shot, especially if you use some kin do of furry wind protection.

Most of my projects are narrative work with dialog (many times on public locations), then music videos and then some very sporadic interview work.

Are your narrative projects mostly one person dialogue or are there multiple people speaking? Also, do you usually work with a boom op or is the mic usually going to be stationary?

One nice thing about the Sennheiser is that with the K6 power module you can get different capsules to have different pickup patterns. These can vary from a long shotgun (ME67) to an omni (ME62). They aren't going to be the greatest when just comparing the sound quality but overall it does give you a relatively inexpensive way to have multiple types of mics on hand.

The Rode NTG-3 is very good sounding mic and probably one of the best values but it s a bit outside of your price range. What you're really looking for is a mic with good side rejection. Here's an article and tests that will give you an idea of the differences between various mics. it's a bit old and has been referenced here and in other forums many times but it is still good.

As I Hear It - Choosing the Right Microphone (http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/right_mic_brockett.html)

You´ve nailed it on the head. What I´m really looking for is a mic with good side rejection. After reading that article I´m guessing what I´m looking for is a Long Shotgun. Around the budget I´m aiming for the AT8015 got some good reviews on the bhphotovideo website regarding very very good side rejection (check out this test audio-technica　AT8015　GUNMIC　DEMO - YouTube). Do you think the NTG3 would do better regarding side rejection?
The narrative projects carry dialogs in exteriors and the boom should be point at the actor that is currently speaking.

Are your narrative projects mostly one person dialogue or are there multiple people speaking? Also, do you usually work with a boom op or is the mic usually going to be stationary?

One nice thing about the Sennheiser is that with the K6 power module you can get different capsules to have different pickup patterns. These can vary from a long shotgun (ME67) to an omni (ME62). They aren't going to be the greatest when just comparing the sound quality but overall it does give you a relatively inexpensive way to have multiple types of mics on hand.

The Rode NTG-3 is very good sounding mic and probably one of the best values but it s a bit outside of your price range. What you're really looking for is a mic with good side rejection. Here's an article and tests that will give you an idea of the differences between various mics. it's a bit old and has been referenced here and in other forums many times but it is still good.

As I Hear It - Choosing the Right Microphone (http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/right_mic_brockett.html)

...Would getting one of these mics very close to the actors' face isolate his speech from the cars' sounds? I don´t mean completely delete the cars' sounds, I mean make the actors' speech perfectly understandable? Again, bare in mind I´m painting a very worst case scenario here just so we can be objective.The inverse square law works in your favour in those circumstances. It says the intensity of the sound hitting the mic vary with the square of the distance, In other words, doubling the distance reduces the sound by a factor of 4. Or going the other way, halving the distance increases the sound level by a factor of 4. So imagine with the mic held 6 feet from the subject the cars passing by happen to be recorded at the same intensity as his spoken voice. Move the mic to 3 feet from the subject. The distance to the cars hasn't really changed so their loudness stays the same. But the voice just became 4 times louder than the cars because the mic is half as far away as it was before. Move it in to 1.5 feet. Again the loudness of the cars won't change, but the voice is now 16 times louder than it was when we started. The is why even an omni hand-held reporter's mic can give good isolation - holding it a couple of inches away from the subject's mouth means the voice is much louder than the volume of the interfering sounds in the environment. And this is why several posts have said that mic placement is more critical to success than is the choice of a given polar pattern and MUCH more critical than comparing the width of the pattern between different shotgun mics.

I know the AT8015 it´s a pretty old mic but I was very impressed by the sample on the video and how well it isolated side noise. I know the sound was not the cleanest or fullest, but the isolation sounded great and with some work in post I think the results could be pretty good. Wouldn´t you guys agree? I mean, did you see how far the camera was from the girl and how much of the surrounding noise the AT8015 managed to cut? I have to say that in my ignorance I´m impressed because these are the type of shooting conditions I´m talking about.

IMO even with the AT8015 the sound was still unacceptable. it sounded like it was still too far away. from the framing the mic could have been place probably about 3 feet below and about 2 feet in front of the lady, It sounded like it was still about 8 to 10' away. I personally would have tried to boom her from the top and framed her a bit differently so that I could get the mic in tighter. But then I've got a boom stand with a 10' boom. Comes in real handy for situations like this. That's another story though.

I still think they could have gotten much better sound. But then, this is to show what the 8015 can do. I've only used the NTG-3 a few times but I was very impressed for a $700 mic. One issue with a long gun will be that it may become too directional. As the speaker moves slightly or turns their head a little, you'll hear a lot of change in the volume as well as sound characteristics.

I'll try to post an example of a shoot I did in a very noisy situation so you can get an idea of what can possibly be achieved even if the mic s somewhat far from the speaker.

Thanks, I´d appreciate the example.

If the AT8015 demo video shows distances equal to what you'll be shooting, then I doubt the NTG-3 will work at all for the longer distances. With background noise, it might not give you what you want when the subject is close, too.

I'd probably recommend the ME67, too. While I haven't used it in a situation with that much background noise, I think it would work better than anything else available in your price range. Again, the farther distance is going to make it tough for any mic.

I agree with Garrett that Sennheiser K6 module gives you access to three very good mics from the long ME67, to the ME66 which is equivalent to a Rode NTG-2 (a very good mic), to the ME64 which is great indoors. They are not really expensive and you can add them one at a time when you get a chance. I sold my ME66 when I bought an NTG-3, but still have the ME67 and ME64.

Here is a take from a short film I worked on this last summer. It's still in post. This is the raw clip. The sound hasn't been touched. Keep in mind that we were running dual systems (separate camera and sound systems). So, the sound going into the camera, which is what you hear in the clip, was just a scratch track used for synching with the sound that was being picked up in a separate recorder. We picked up this sound with a very quick set up. We couldn't get a quick setup from the sound recorder out to camera so I took about 5 minutes to put a shotgun mic (Sanken CS-3e) on a boom and plugged it into the camera. I just had a PA point the mic at the actors. The boom op had never done it before. I just told him to try to point it at the actors mouths. He was sitting on the ground and the mic was about 6' away from the actors.

As you can tell, this was a very noisy location. It was very windy, I just used a fury for wind protection. I have a full blimp system with a dead cat but didn't want to take the extra time to set it up. Like I said, the sound going into the camera was just for synching. You can hear the birds in the background and there were other people on the beach talking around us but they were far enough away that we could keep them out of the recording. Just for reference I would never use this sound in a finished production. On a scale of 1 to 10 for sound quality, what you here on this clip is about a 1 1/2, maybe a 2. We actually ended up having to ADR this scene along with a couple of others. Even with a full sound crew the wind and waves were just too much to be able to get acceptable sound.

Password: Sound
Private Video on Vimeo

Since this hasn't been released yet I'll be pulling the video down in a few days.

Wow, this goes to show how raw my ears are. That sounds very very acceptable to be. I mean, I can you could clear the actors' voice a little bit in post, but I though it was great.

My only problem is that I can only buy from forum members or from from Ebay as these are the only places that will declare a lower price during shipping so I won´t have to 65% import taxes.

So far I could not find the Sennheiser ME67/K6P on ebay. I could only find the ME66/K6 for around $525, the at8035 for around $270, the AT8015 for $290 (what worries about this mic is how hard it will be to find accessories on account of its size), the Sony ECM-674/9X for around $410 and the NTG3 for $570 (the upper the price goes, the lower the budget for getting needed accessories like a boompole, blimp, windshield, cables, etc) . There were a lot more shotguns out there, but I´m just listing the ones we´ve discussed here.
I know the other mics that we´ve talked about here are maybe not as good, but considering what I can get at the moment If you guys could not get the Sennheiser ME67/K6P which one would you get for the type of side rejection I´ve explained here?

The more I read the more I think that me being an audio NOOB won´t take full profit of very expensive audio gear. I´m really thinking about getting the H4N with the AT8015 and then investing the rest on a boompole, windscreen, cables, etc.

I could only find the ME66/K6 for around $525, the at8035 for around $270, the AT8015 for $290 (what worries about this mic is how hard it will be to find accessories on account of its size), the Sony ECM-674/9X for around $410 and the NTG3 for $570 (the upper the price goes, the lower the budget for getting needed accessories like a boompole, blimp, windshield, cables, etc) .

Of those you found on eBay, I would strongly recopmmend the NTG-3 if you can afford it at all. The sound is REALLY good, especially if you can get a boompole. I paid $530 for mine on eBay and am extremely happy with it. I use it a lot on-camera and do some outside interviews with it when I am close enough to the subject (head and shoulders shots). Getting good sound makes a HUGE difference and can be emphasized enough. Learning a little about sound -- and it's really not hard to learn the basics -- was the most important step I made to improving the quality of my work. Much of what I learned was reading everything I could here on this forum. These folks are the best!

You don't have to get an expensive pole to be effective and a long cable is cheap. I paid $209 for an internally wired K-TEK pole that I like, but I just checked and there seems to be some very good prices (so far) on eBay auctions. There are some I would definitely consider bidding on if I needed another one.

Rafael, what camera are you running? Does it have XLR inputs and phantom power? The H4N is used by a lot of people but I've never been a real fan of it. It is about the least expensive recorder with XLR inputs but if your camera has them you would find that your camera will most likely capture equal or better sound. At least that's been my experience.

The mic I used to capture the sound in the example I posted (the Sanken CS-3e) is a short shot gun. It is one of the best at side rejection but a lot of the volume difference you hear between the dialogue and other sounds has to do with proximity and understanding the characteristics of the microphone. I had the boom op placed so that he would be able to get the least amount of outside noise. The difference between a mic like the CS-3e and say a Rode NTG-3 or Sennheiser ME66 will be less than you think. The cost is over double for the Sanken but in audio, the laws of diminishing returns is very true. However, if I took time to really setup for the sound I would be able to get even better sound with your Rode Videomic Pro (I own the original Videomic and still use it). Would it be as good as a properly setup NTG-3, Sanken, or Schoeps? No, but it would be good enough to use for a news story, or perhaps for a low budget documentary.

what is your budget? I agree with Phil that the NTG-3 is definitely the best of the mics you listed. But, If you had an NTG-3 with no other equipment, it wouldn't help a lot. A nice boom is, well nice, but you can always do a makeshift one. My first boom pole was a DIY made from a telescopic light bulb changing pole that I cut off the end and fashioned the proper threaded bolt to. It worked great but, it was heavy and yellow and ugly. Since I usually wasn't the one holding the boom I didn't care that it was heavy. Now I use a Rode boom pole that I put an internal wire in my self. It came free in a deal Rode had when they first introduced their blimp. New it only costs $145 US. It is heavier than a lot of others but it's very durable and gets the job done. Cables are cheap now. I'd get a quality one as it will get a lot of abuse. Pay a little more and get one that is made for location work. It will have better shielding and will have better connectors. If you only get one cable I would recommend a 50 footer. It sounds long but if it's the only cable you've got you want to make sure you have enough. I've been in situations where 25' is not long enough. In my kit I've got 2 x 25', 2 x 50' that I bring with me to every shoot. And, a pet peeve of mine, learn how to coil your cables correctly. There are a lot of examples on YouTube. This will keep your cables from getting ruined and will keep them from getting tangled.

Make sure you get a quality shock mount too. If you get a blimp system you'll get a suspension unit so you'd get the shock mount. Rycote makes a great value in their S-Series kits. Under $300 here and the suspension system is top notch.

As for mics, I would figure out your budget, look at the essentials of your kit (cable, shock mount, wind protection, boom pole), and then see how much you have left for the mic. Then look for the mic in your budget range. A couple things to remember about audio equipment. It changes much slower than cameras. You will most likely be using the audio equipment you buy now with several changes in cameras. The thing you might change is the mic. The rest, as long as it fits, you won't have to change.

That's just my thoughts.

Garrett, sadly my camera doesn´t have XLR inputs, so the H4N will be a must.

Some very basic example of the H4N with the Videomic Pro. I can imagine a slightly more capable mic would do a much better job.

https://vimeo.com/24727103#

Some very basic example of the H4N with the Videomic Pro. I can imagine a slightly more capable mic would do a much better job.

https://vimeo.com/24727103#

I can imagine that the same Videomic Pro POSITIONED PROPERLY would do a much better job. The overhead shot showed it was aimed at the floor several feet BEHIND the presenter. That audio is not of a quality that I would post online purporting to be advising others how to make decent video. They clearly have lower standards. A $25 lav clipped onto the presenter would have sounded much better to my ears.

I'm not a great fan of those little plastic "video mics". They are neither fish nor fowl and amateurs are encouraged to use them in ways that are practically guaranteed to produce poor audio (i.e. mounted ON a camera). It makes me think that the bean-counters and marketing gerbs won that argument with the sensible engineers and product designers. "We don't care if it doesn't work very well, we can sell it as a cure-all for clueless videographers and we'll sell a ton of them."

Some very basic example of the H4N with the Videomic Pro. I can imagine a slightly more capable mic would do a much better job.

https://vimeo.com/24727103#

There was some bad info in that video. Please don't use that as a good example of how to do it right.

I have to agree ..... a VERY bad instructional video.

Cringing with the rest of you...and yes the $25 lav would have totally eliminated the room reverb...pointing the mic at her face wouldn't have hurt either. I've NEVER set my gain based on room noise...wow.

And Garrett, that was a TWO?? i would have given it at least a 4 or 5 (out of 10), tough room... I have a neat toy (Izotope ANR-B) that would get rid of the surf noise, but not the birds.

Wow, why didn't I ever think of setting audio levels by moving the mic closer or further away from the speaker? Guess they don't care about all that room reverb or proximity effects. I'd argue that this is a great video on what not to do to get good sound.

And Garrett, that was a TWO?? i would have given it at least a 4 or 5 (out of 10), tough room... I have a neat toy (Izotope ANR-B) that would get rid of the surf noise, but not the birds.

Thanks Greg, Yeah, I do a lot of small movies with dedicated production sound mixers and sound designers so I'm constantly surrounded by people who can get great sound in a lot of very difficult situations. I've read about the iZotope. Would love to have one on a lot of projects but I'll have to leave that to the sound guys. Only can have so many toys.

I especially like the background hum in that video... although it's somewhat covered up by the jungle drums overlaid on the track. And they were so proud of their 10' unbalanced 3.5mm extension cable. ;-)

The reverb isn't all that bad... they were recording in a bathroom, right?

From the photo, it looks as if the mic is pointed over her left shoulder toward the floor... a very innovative technique. And she says they position it above and point it down to minimize the "deflection" ??? Where did this bimbo get her training (if any)... on the moon?

Of course when you read the comments posted by their site viewers, you get some idea of the target audience. Sic transit gloria mundi.

Guys, I´ve been listening to a lot of different tests with the NTG3 under different circumstances and the more I hear the more I like it. It seems to have very nice side rejection and even good results indoors. I´m actually looking around to see if I can get me one of these babies.

Just pulled the plug on a Rode NTG3. It may not be THE most directional mic of them all, but it seems to be general consensus that it´s a great all around mic. I loved the tests I´ve heard.

Yesterday I saw a camera crew from a community TV station shooting some segments at a show / fair using a rode NTG2 outside (without any wind shield), They were shooting a 2 person interview with a the mic (pointing above the talent) on a boom pole with the base resting on the ground just in front of the sound operator who was standing next to the camera, about 1.5 - 2m from the talent.
I spoke to them why they did it that way and not even monitor the sound in H/Phones? .... The comment was "they fix it up in editing"

And the thing was they thought this was the standard way to do things and the audio would be OK.....

I just shook my head as I walked away and thought "At least my income is secure for many years to come as a location sound recordist"

Yesterday I saw a camera crew from a community TV station shooting some segments at a show / fair using a rode NTG2 outside (without any wind shield), They were shooting a 2 person interview with a the mic (pointing above the talent) on a boom pole with the base resting on the ground just in front of the sound operator who was standing next to the camera, about 1.5 - 2m from the talent.
I spoke to them why they did it that way and not even monitor the sound in H/Phones? .... The comment was "they fix it up in editing"

And the thing was they thought this was the standard way to do things and the audio would be OK.....

I just shook my head as I walked away and thought "At least my income is secure for many years to come as a location sound recordist"

Five words I never let my crew say, "We'll fix it in post."

Mic selection is very much a matter of individual taste and knowing the specific application. Ther is noone fits all solution.

For information on directionality review the published polar patterns of the mics of interest. Keep in mind they depend on frequency and often have significant side and back lobes. That is why patterns should have many plot lines at different frequencies. Some mics that are directional for some frequency sound might be substantially less so for other frequencies. Some have excellent rejection to the side at 90 or 120 degrees, and not so good directly to the rear (where the camera oeprator often is).

Sound isolation is very much a matter of both mic pattern and placement. Put the dominant unwanted sound source at a null point in the mic pattern and the desired sound source on the pickup axis as close as you reasonably can.

If recording a small number of people or just a small group from a distance, wireless mics are potential solution.

The square law effect mentioned in several posts above is unbelieveably effective (until you experience it a few times at which point you become a believer).

If all else fails, voice over in a studio (or similar) environment