I agree, few of us will go to broadcast, but it may be becoming more prevalent to color grade. AVCHD doesn't allow for much of that.


I suspect that the majority of us on this forum will never be producing anything for broadcast & are generally shooting & editing for the Web or DVD/Blu-ray disc in which case AVCHD may well be good enough for our purposes just as HDV was good enough for our purposes & before that DV & before that VHS were also good enough.

I do not have much of a dog in this hunt, but I do color grade everything I shoot. I edit using Edius and primary & secondary color correction are realtime. So more information from any camera I would use is welcomed.

As time marches on, secondary color correction will be more commonplace making an investment in an AVCHD cam look worse and worse. Just my opinion! We are no longer held back by memory speed...

Just noticed that here in the UK Jigsaw24 have now got the C100 listed on their website for delivery in 5 to 7 days. Very keen price too - at £3829 ex VAT - much lower than the pre-order price I have got with another UK dealer!

Will be interesting to see if this delivery prediction pans out. I've bought expensive cams and apple computers from them in the past and they are a reputable dealer so I imagine this might mean C100s will hit these shores very soon. Blummin hope so as I have a number of shoots in the next few months where it would come in handy!

Canon Cinema EOS C100 EF Super35MM Digital Camcorder - Jigsaw24 (http://www.jigsaw24.com/product-details/x184aag/canon-cinema-eos-c100-ef-super35mm-digital-camcorder?gclid=COLitbv87LICFSTKtAodS0EAgw)

As much as I want a better codec too, the C100 does seem to fit pretty neatly with everything else in that price range. People grade the heck out of their 5D footage and whatnot, even though it doesn't produce images ideal for the that sort of thing.
The only thing I can see making them sit up in this regard would be the BMC and the form factor and crop factor kinda limits its applications. I was thinking maybe the Digi-Bolex might increase the spread of that sort of thing, but that seems to have the same niche if I read it right (actually its lens flexibility remains to be seen, I think).
There's already Ninja bundles for the C100 and the price still seems pretty competitive even with that. So I guess Atomos are happy anyway.

It's interesting to note what for many are considered this camera's shortcomings. 50 mb/s is desirable for other reasons, but grading would be low on my list.

How much grading do people really need to do these days? I can't be alone in getting slightly bored of over the top grading, which for some people seems to be a standard procedure. Another thing is slow motion. Yes it can be wonderful, but after the Olympics i'm pretty much slo-moed out for the time being, thanks. I'd only just recovered from the last world cup, where we got endless shots of footballer's acne in both Hi-Def, and at a zillion frames per second. Yuck......

How much grading do people really need to do these days? I can't be alone in getting slightly bored of over the top grading, which for some people seems to be a standard procedure.

The answer to your first question should be: "as much as is necessary to achieve the desired look". Hopefully that isn't over-the-top. Sometimes there's a need to do a significant amount of pushing and pulling simply to achieve a balanced, deceptive "non-look". I've laid in as many as five windows onto a shot that couldn't be controlled on-set for one reason or another, something akin to dodging and burning. If done properly, the results are impossible to detect.

Couldn't agree more Charles.
I use multiple windows and extensive grading daily just to have a quality image, as we do in photography.
We rarely add a "look" to our work. We get that on set/location.

The world is an imperfect environment and even the best controlled location work creates challenges.
Having the skills and tools to correct/perfect things in post is another level of professionalism....if you've got the skills and tools.

I get a sense that the folks that think that grading is about snowboard videos don't really understand how much of it is involved in the looks that they see and appreciate every day.

Same with slo-mo. I've never even thought of asking another pro why they would need to have a gradable codec or slow motion capabilities in their camera.

If a professional uses slow motion in a film or TV spot it's because it was either what was creatively appropriate for the scene or because the client requested it.

To me it's like questioning why fine restaurants serve wine and champagne when there are so many stumbling drunks in the world.

If done properly, the results are impossible to detect.

A skill that takes time and a great eye along with software training to make happen. One that I am a long way from mastering.

Just an update that this afternoon I see CVP here in the UK have now matched the Jigsaw24 price I mentioned over the weekend.

Canon Cinema EOS C100 EF (C-100, 100C, EOS) super 35mm digital cinematography camcorder with EF lens mount (http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/index.php?t=product/canon_eos_c100)

I was considering buying an additional Canon BP975 battery for my C100 (when I get it) but am now leaning more towards another Canon BP955, or two. I've read that these batteries give about 260 min and 190 min performance respectively on the C300 (I assume it might be similar on the C100).

I like the idea of keeping the camera as small and light as possible (especially since I am likely to be putting and external recorder on it some time soon), even though I know this is not the most cost effective way of buying power.

At least the smaller BP955 will not stick out at the back any further than the LCD. Also, once I've worked out Steadicam settings that's one more variable I can ignore if I change batteries mid-shoot!

Andy, I did the same and purchased extra 955 batteries since they let you close the battery door. The bigger batteries do not.

When I am on my shoulder I will use my Switrox batteries which go off the back to balance the rig. Those will run the camera for 1/2 a day at 130w/h each.

The answer to your first question should be: "as much as is necessary to achieve the desired look". Hopefully that isn't over-the-top. Sometimes there's a need to do a significant amount of pushing and pulling simply to achieve a balanced, deceptive "non-look". I've laid in as many as five windows onto a shot that couldn't be controlled on-set for one reason or another, something akin to dodging and burning. If done properly, the results are impossible to detect.


Then clearly you're someone who needs the additional "box on the back" of the C100. But if i was doing higher end stuff, i'd probably get the 300 version anyway. My general point though, is that this camera looks to be superb as it is, and if you need the extra MB/s you can do that too. Slo-mo will no doubt become available soon. At a price.

Probably--since I already own a Nanoflash, I am indeed considering the C100. I do start to wonder at that point what advantage the C300 would have over the 100--starts to get slim (if I need to monitor out HD-SDI, as I do, the Nano takes care of the HDMI conversion for me).

There is an assumption out there that 8-bit is simply not useable with log footage. I have learned otherwise, as long as it's not paired with low bitrate or color sampling. Recording the F3 out to XDCXAM (4:2:2 50mbs) yielded perfectly good results that held up under all kinds of grading. The only place I saw issues was pulling mattes off green screen.

We had a C100 on Tuesday here at Filmtools.......
Canon Cinema EOS C100 at Filmtools - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbsH4xCoUCM)

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Jim, the top handle looks like it attaches in a way similar to the FS100. The FS's handle can come loose. Was this an issue with the C100?

Being an owner of a C300 the top handle is just waiting to break. I am going to add a Movcam top handle.

Charles. I'm sure you are already aware of this, but others here may not. There is a big miss-understanding over what the consequences of using 8 bit over 10 bit normally are when grading and pushing material in post, something I did not fully appreciate until recently. We all know the key difference is 235 luma levels for 8 bit and 940 luma levels for 10 bit . The assumption is that a consequence of this will be banding and stair stepping in 8 bit footage after grading due to not enough grey shades or luma levels. In reality this is rarely the case when grading as the edit application will calculate in between values between these steps based on average values between the previous and next luma level in effect smoothing out any banding. One of the real consequences of using an 8 bit codec, if the camera noise level is low enough is a loss of subtle details and textures that might be visible with a 10 bit codec. The sensors in most of these mid range and above cameras are often 12 or 14bit, so the sensor is capturing a lot of very subtle textures. When this gets converted down to 8 bit a lot of these subtle details are thrown away or rounded up/down as they fall between the rather coarse luma shades. These can never be recovered in post as basically they are never recorded. So potentially with an 8 bit camera you may loose some subtle textures, perhaps on faces and skin, fabric and plant textures or clouds in a bright sky.
Will you notice this? Perhaps not, especially if you have nothing else to compare it to. Also if your using any gain or the camera is noisy anyway the noise will mask and dither these subtleties anyway. But with a quiet camera it is one of those things that can give the images a more filmic verisimilitude.

Banding and stair stepping tends to be a result of compression noise, macro blocking and poor encoding rather than purely a lack of bits. So raising the recording data rate and using a better codec with an external recorder will often eliminate banding, but won't gain you those subtle details unless you start off with a 10 bit (or better) output.

Philip found this C100 video and posted it elsewhere on the web.

Canon EOS C100 sample - YouTube

There is also another video by this YouTube user (all low light shots of a van) which also went up in the last 24hrs - but I won't bother posting a link to that as I regard that one as being of questionable quality [Amongst other things like flickering it looks like its been poorly Smoothcam or Warp Stabilised in post - not sure what's going on with that one - tried Google translate on the Japanese video info on the YouTube page and none of it made much sense!]

I will be at two Canon C100 presentations this weekend in LA. So far I am not blown away, hoping to see some big screen projections that light my fires. Any questions you want asked?

Same latitude as C300?
Same noise level as C300?

Thanks Philip

Happy with my C300 but would like a nice B-Cam to match with my Nano.

Does the instant auto-focus and iris work while recording?
Can the internal mic and an XLR-connected mic be used simultaneously?

Yes, thanks, Philip.

CVP here in the UK (one of our major video gear suppliers - and the one I have my pre-order with) are holding a C100/C300/C500 event next Tuesday (23rd) in a central London hotel. The invite came in on e-mail last night.

There will be a 4K screening from the C500 (no mention of any screening from the C100 though). I've just booked on the afternoon session. There is a Q&A session at this event too - just in case Philip does not get all the answers... ;-)

Was at Canon USA C100 presentation, really nice guys. My impression:

The Good:

HDMI out signal image quality the same as C300 image quality
very light weight, feels good in hand
button layout better than C300
One button AF works but takes about three seconds to focus indoors
One button WB, and AE
new menu items make it easier to do quick rough adjustments gamma curves
Wide DR nice 709 curve but colorist sitting next to me says it still requires grading
low light same as C300
Independent audio channels so can mix internal and external mics
USA service with three day turnaround, like mid level CPS pro service
Camera balances well on handle
C300 level internal adjustments to gamma curves
Very good build quality
LUT for C log display on LCD
future continuous autofocus with STM lenses, better STM lenses coming


The Bad,

EVF nearly useless for focusing indoors less you use peaking outside not tested
EVF uncomfortable to use, poor ergonomics
LCD just OK, doesn't rotate to face subject
can save six gammas to media card but they disappear when you change media card
Can lock down settings but then one button AE AF WB not work
AVCHD
Only way to adjust iris is on add-on grip or AE button,
Since grip is required, unlike C300, minimum rig is not that light weight
Without handle lighter weight makes some L lenses out of balance on camera
No 60p
No EV compensation

Very thorough, thanks Philip!

I am thrilled about the LUT for C log (sorely missed on C300) , but disappointed about the EVF.

Thanks for the list. The iris adjustment seems odd. Means you pretty much have to have the add-on to use the camera unless I am reading it incorrectly?

Yes, for anything but idiot mode AE you need the grip. There is not even EV compensation.

The marking rep seemed shocked that I do not shoot with DSLRs. They see this as a step up camera, not a camera for lateral moves among experienced shooters like Andy is doing. They are blind to this possibility and to the BMCC Indie market. Totally focused on this as a way to move people into first pro camera.

Was at Canon USA C100 presentation, really nice guys. My impression:


The Bad,

EVF nearly useless for focusing indoors less you use peaking outside not tested
EVF uncomfortable to use, poor ergonomics


This is the most concerning to me and in many ways negates the ergonomics of the camera. Not being able to use the EVF means you can't hold the camera up to the eye and given the location of the LCD makes this seems like it will be as much a problem for handheld shooting as a typical DSLR.

Was talking to colorists at a post production house, they felt that the C100 C Log plus external recorder was the most inexpensive solution to give them professionally acceptable images for grading. They felt very confident in this recommendation.

Just back from Canon/CVP event in London. Cam looks good. Build quality and ergonomics are excellent but EVF is terrible. LCD positions are more limited than I had hoped. In the hand it's a dream tho - very light. Still no firm date on delivery. All I was told was by the end of the year and that C500s will be delivered before C100s. More tomorrow.

For a camera they've aimed at the one man production market, it's actually stunning that the EVF is considered so poor by virtually every handler so far. It's the first thing I commented on when I saw a Z-Finder gaffer taped to the back of the one used to do the original promotional film
The ability to comfortably judge exposure and focus on the fly is pretty much the top echelon of mandatories the for shooters they're talking to.

Things like this, and absolutely no avenue for 1080 multiple frame rates on the full featured C cameras really makes me wonder what Canon is doing right now. Because no matter how much we want to buy a pair this tax cycle, they simply aren't giving us some of the essentials we need.

I used to have a real affinity for Canon and a close relationship with them through our business, but it seems by the time they get around to delivering the things that a big chunk of their market needs, we'll have long been invested in new Sony systems.

It's a drag. I love the new sensor and form factors (minus the crippled EVF on the 100) and have three kits of Canon glass. We start into an 18 month film project, over 18 remote locations, in January, I need to equip two units that can cover everything in demanding four season conditions. We saw the new C line as the ideal solution.

Now we wait to see Sony's announcement in a few days and I bet it covers all the bases.

Fair comments from Jim.

Just to add to some information from handling the C100 yesterday at the Soho Hotel event.

The LCD looked pretty good and focus peaking worked very well. The magnify button (on the EXCELLENT hand grip) gave about 2x (guess) to help nail focus if needed. I would have preferred a higher magnification factor than this but I guess time will tell if it's good enough when I eventually take delivery.

Regarding the EVF - Well it seems not much better than the one on my little Panasonic TM900 - probably higher resolution. It was possible to get focus with it (using peaking) but it is something I would use only if pushed to and is FAR from ideal. Me thinks a Zacuto finder designed especially for the C100 is going to be a big seller with this cam - see their promo video for the product that I posted some time ago on this thread. The LCDs mounting seemed pretty robust. I think it will take the extra weight and light pressure that will come from using the C100 this way without breaking anything - usual legal disclaimer now follows.....! ;-)

The LCD can be tilted to a near vertical position for viewing from the right-hand side of the camera (the hand grip side). Although I knew this, it is obviously not ideal as you have to crank your head 90 degrees to see it properly! You cannot flip it so that you can view it (albeit near vertically again) from the left-hand side (where all the control buttons are). See later why this was a blow as far as I am concerned. The image does invert on the LCD if you position it to view from below (e.g. if you had the cam high up on a jib or held above the heads of crowds on a monopod).

The menu system seemed very intuitive and fast/easy to access using the little joystick etc. on the hand grip. I really liked a lot of the button positions on the left side of the C100 body (plus the ability to assign things more or less as desired). I think I'll get familiar with it quickly and will then be able to make changes rapidly - very important for some of the run-n-gun stuff I have to do in my type of work. NDs seemed to work pretty well but I did find I occasionally got one "half across" - probably just something I need to get used to.

Overall the handling was, as mentioned last night, superb. I really like the small form factor (and the build quality). The fully adjustable position and shape of the hand grip makes the camera a joy to hold. Yes you can take it off (with a loss of easy control of menu functions if you do, as mentioned by Philip) but I suspect I'll leave mine on the camera nearly all the time. With that hand grip the C100 just "feels right". There is a central lead and plug in the middle of the handgrip fitting (where it meets the C100 body) and which plugs into a socket in the middle of the cams fitting. I did not actually have time to take the hand grip and its lead off/put it back on - I suspect it's identical to the what's on a C300 which I hope is idiot proof and robust - see further below.

With the (well built) XLR and mic handle removed the C100 is surprisingly small and even lighter. Great for street shooting. I can see me using it like this a lot with my Rode VMP or Rode SVM on it. By the way, the dials to adjust audio levels on the XLR handle were small but usable and the switches all had a good positive feel.

One thing that did concern me a little is the lead that comes out of the XLR handle has a plug on it that fits onto a multi-pin socket incorporated on the top right side of the camera. The many small, fine pins in that socket look fragile/easy to damage if someone was ham-fisted with attaching this connector. In truth, Canon have designed the plug locking ring in a way that should ensure it can only be pushed on the correct way so again time will tell if this is a robust enough design. For sure, removing/attaching the handle is something I'll be doing carefully, not in a big hurry, until I'm much more sure about this.

We also saw 4K screenings from the C500 and EOS 1-DC which were, well, superb. CVP also had the 1-DC there (which I found a heavy brick compared to the C100 and not in the same league handling wise). They also had some of the new Canon Cinema lenses (out of my price range - so I just looked!) as well as several C300 and the C500 plus a 5DMkIII, the new 24-70mm F2.8 lens (much smaller and lighter than the original - felt great on the 5DMkIII) and a few other cameras (full XF series) and useful gear.

Bottom line. I'm very happy I'm early on a pre-order list for the C100. I strongly suspect I'll need a Zacuto or similar finder on the LCD and so circumvent the poor EVF design. I also suspect that circumventing the AVCHD codec with a Atomos Ninja2 (or similar) will give me an additional benefit of having a (albeit small) second LCD screen. That way I can swivel a screen to where I typically am when doing sit down interviews (i.e. on the left side of the tripod mounted camera so I can easily access any of the buttons if things need to be tweaked). Either that or I'll have to make sure I sit more behind the camera (if room permits!) and little to the left if want to view the C100 LCD whilst interviewing.

Can't comment about AVCHD image quality - that'll come when cameras ship and I get quality time to get to know what she'll be capable of. For sure, via the clean HDMI and an external recorder this little cam will be capable of some stunning stuff.

I am not an old school camera operator & have never been very keen on using an EVF probably because the ones that I have used have been pretty crappy e.g. XHA-1 so I am usually happier using the LCD monitor. However the EVF on the C300 is lovely & I like using the camera in stripped down mode without the monitor & XLRs. The EVF on the C100 looks like the all but useless one on the XF100. I guess that they have to differentiate between the C300 & C100 ergonomically as the lesser quality AVCHD recording on SD cards can be avoided with an external recorder so that there is no difference in recorded image quality between C300 & C100.

The grip connections are identical to the C300. Does anyone know a way to use a rig to remount the grip for left hand use?

On the EVF: I used my XF105 yesterday and tried to use the EVF as much as possible. It's about the same size as the C100 (0.24-inch vs. XF105 at 0.24) but much lower resolution (C100 is 1.555 million dots and XF is 260,000 dots). With peaking I could focus pretty well, but it's a small window on the world. It's not really too bad though and the LCD is in the right place to use it handheld

What bothers me about the C100 is that you really need the EVF to use it optimally. The LCD is in the same place as a DSLR. It does swivel, but it still forces you to hold the camera out from your body if you're doing handheld without any additional rig. I can't stand that.

So, I think if I got the C100 I'd use the EVF quite a bit. I'm waiting to get some reviews on the camera (especially image quality) and then decide.

Steve, I echo your concerns on handheld use. I've scrutinized all the footage of people holding the cam, trying to see how I might get a 3rd point of contact in there while using the LCD.

One thought I had was that with the LCD horizontal, I might be able to press the edge against my chest and still be able to peek at it from there (like I occasionally do with my 60D). I think the design slightly improves upon DSLR's by putting the grip further forward to better accommodate this handheld position.

I agree, the grip definitely makes a difference (judging from my very brief C300 experience at least). Will be very curious to try out the C100 before I make any decisions.

The grip, as I sort of mentioned, really is a major factor in the C100's usability. Also, the C100 being quite a bit lighter than the C300 helps a lot more than I had imagined (when I compared the the weight numbers in all the official specs on the Canon website).

Regarding a third point of contact. Well, although not suitable for many shots, pressing the camera to ones upper chest (with the LCD in a horizontal, pointing up, position) could work well - for those type of shots only of course! However, one point that might be worth noting is battery size. I have (already) bought several small Canon BP-955 batteries (same as the one the C100 will ship with) in anticipation of putting it to work as soon as I get my C100. However, I imagine that the larger Canon BP-975 battery (which sticks out at the back when on a C100) might actually be better in this respect as it would allow a "much firmer" bracing point. (From pictures it looks like it sticks out about as much as the LCD would in the flat position).

I really think that the specific Zacuto finder (or similar) will not only solve the poor EVF but also provide some of the extra stability and comfort that comes with more body contact. As always, I'll see how I get on before spending on one of those though as they are not likely to be cheap!

If you are using Canon lenses the C100 is only about half a pound lighter than the C300, as exposure control other than AE requires the grip, which adds weight. With manual lenses, sch as ZEiss or Rokinon, you do not need the grip However, with Canon lenses you get peripheral exposure illumination to reduce vignetting,

As for handheld use, it is not optimal without the EVF as a third point of contact. The Zacuto Z Fnder will be an essential piece of gear, more weight. Wish it was at least listed on the Zacuto website; so far, it has appeared only in the C100 video they did,

While there has been some discussion about using the HDMI output with an external recorder, the spec for the C100 on the Canon website says it records to 4:2:0. Is it confirmed the HDMI output is 4:2:2?

(Sorry if this has been answered)

Why couldnt they have just taken all the features from an XL2/XL H1 and made it into a bigger sensored version? At least the XL series cameras had proper servo controlled lenses with IS and AF. Why have Canon gone backwards?? Even my old Hi8 L2 has a great servo zoom on all lenses that came with it.

While there has been some discussion about using the HDMI output with an external recorder, the spec for the C100 on the Canon website says it records to 4:2:0. Is it confirmed the HDMI output is 4:2:2?

(Sorry if this has been answered)

IT is 4:2:2 out, they checked it for me at the Canon Hollywood presentation. There is one other major issue They are checking for me right now, and I hope to have an answer next week.

OK, now you've got me worried Philip......

It could be major or it could just be Canon Pro Support giving another wrong answer, Remeber they said the HDMI out was only 4:2:0 when it is 4:2:2. Let's wait and see.

OK, let us know when you've got the answer.

Why couldnt they have just taken all the features from an XL2/XL H1 and made it into a bigger sensored version? At least the XL series cameras had proper servo controlled lenses with IS and AF. Why have Canon gone backwards?? Even my old Hi8 L2 has a great servo zoom on all lenses that came with it.The problem is designing motor zoom lenses for a large sensor camera. You need an awful lot more expensive optics. There is a good reason why the constant aperture lenses for DSLRs are at best 3X.

As soon as you hear anything, please post! Thanks

" There is one other major issue They are checking for me right now, and I hope to have an answer next week."

It could be major or it could just be Canon Pro Support giving another wrong answer, Remeber they said the HDMI out was only 4:2:0 when it is 4:2:2. Let's wait and see.

I believe that was from Canon Australia.....

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

This Canon rep confirms that the HDMI output is 4:2:2
It was posted just 11 hours ago.
In fact, he states it twice.. at time 2:30sec and 2:45sec.
IBC 2012 - Canon’s Peter Yabsley about the EOS C100 idea on Vimeo

That is not the pending issue. canon Japan confirmed that not only is it 4:2:2 but it is identical to C300

Well guys it was great following this thread and having a C100 on pre-order but now seeing the direction Sony is going and hopefully Panasonic following suit I'm canceling my pre-order and waiting this out a bit more. If history is correct Canon's next offering should be in 2 more years which should have the slow-mo I'll miss if I purchased the C100. Not taking that chance again. -____-

Yep, those two new Sony F5 and F55 cams sure look GREAT and I'd love one! We don't know pricing yet but rumours (and they are only rumours at the moment) are that the F5 will give the C300 VERY serious competition on price - and of course totally tramples it on the specs front. I think if I was about to buy a Canon C300 or C500 or 1D-C at the moment it would be wise decision to wait - if I could. Soon it won't just be RED that's repositioning its price offering! Fantastic news from Sony.

However, C100 is/was definitely always going to be in a lower price bracket no matter what. I've been looking hard for a year already and need it now/can't sit things out any longer and in truth don't want to spend £>10K on any one cam in this fast moving environment anyway. But if the jobs keep flying in like they are at the moment maybe I'll get a F5 or F55 one day not to far in the future : -)