Anyone have horror stories or praise for using SD cards and an adaptor rather than the Sony SxS express cards for recording ?

I haven't used them yet but have heard nothing of any problems with them Mark. I will be going down that route soon, as I have the perennial problem of clients flying into town wanting to take the footage with them
and not being organized to do that. I intend to just buy cards for the job (effectively charging the cards as the old "tape stock") and using a nanoflash as the back up.

I will then just store their footage for a couple of weeks and if all is ok with their SDHC cards I can then delete my copy.

Mark,
Search here for "SDHC SXS" and you'll find many many discussions on the topic. Bottom line is that there are some combinations of SDHC and adapters that people have used. Many recommend against it. You can perhaps solve the problem of giving footage to clients by copying each SXS to an SDHC adapter in the second slot. The MxM SSD recorder with a hard disk is another alternative to consolidate the day's cards using the slot to slot copy. Be warned that there's a limit imposed by the firmware on the max number of files. The limit is 604. Your SSD recorder will appear full even tho it isn't.

Using both a Kingston 32GB and 2 SanDisk UHS-1 8GB cards on a Sony SDHC adapter, I have had no problems with the memory itself nor the adapter. I was actually able to overcrank 60/24fps for 2 minutes record time on the UHS-1 cards and not have it fail.

Don't forget XQD cards can also be used in the newer models like the F3, the PMW-100 and upcoming PMW-200. No evidence XQD works on the EX series unfortunately.

As long as you follow certain basic rules, the SDHC/adaptor system works well. Basic rules are:

Only use adaptors and cards that are recommended - never use cheap unbranded cards.

Test all cards before serious use - there have been tales of dud SD cards, Ideally test via overcranking, you get a good idea of how long a good card will last before giving an error. (Any duds seem to be like that straight from factory - once a card has been checked, subsequent failure seems extremely rare.)

Normal running should then be reliable - overcranking won't be.

Don't be impatient - make sure you don't eject cards from camera or computer whilst still being written to.

As solid state recording becomes more common, by far the most common cause of lost data seems to be coming down to finger trouble - cards being formatted in error. (As just one example: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdcam-ex-cinealta/509121-file-recovery-due-accidental-format.html ) The big advantage of SDHC is not simply that it means saving money on memory costs, it enables a different workflow. It becomes feasible to have enough cards so that reformating doesn't have to happen straight away. It also makes it far more feasible to be able to shoot and give away the media to a producer without too much worry, and being able to clone cards in camera should also be seen as a big plus.

The EX cameras "restore media" function does not work as effectively on SD cards as SxS cards as there are issues writing both the video stream and the restore stream to the card at the same time. In case of any file corruption, as a result restoring media is less successful with SD cards than SxS. In addition SxS is tolerant to power loss or disconnection mid recording.

I've never recommended the use of SD cards as your only recording medium when your shooting something that cannot be re-shot quickly and easily. There are plenty of horror stories related to the use of SD cards. Most were in the early days, but they do still crop up on a regular basis even with supposedly tried and tested card and adapter combos. I'm sure many can be put down to finger trouble or operator error and they are fewer these days than in the past. But whether operator error or a genuine technical failure, there are still more reports of issues with SD cards than SxS. On average I get a "help I've lost everything" email about once a month. Some of these have no obvious explanation. I get similar emails about SxS failures about once every year.
However Chris's workflow recording to both the SD cards and a NanoFlash is a good one and should be pretty bomb proof. Having said that I was on a shoot a couple of weeks where one crew used an F3 with SD cards plus an external recorder. At the end of the shoot the SD cards were deleted because the external recorder had appeared to have recorded everything OK. But once in the edit suite it was discovered that many key shot were missing off the external recorder. There is also the risk of recording the graphic overlays on the external recorder, so the moral here is don't delete anything until the edit is finished.

If you have to choose between SxS or SD cards on a paying shoot then I would want to inform the client and ensure the client understands the difference between SD cards and SxS. Then let the client decide whether they are comfortable with the use of SD cards. That way if things do go wrong at least the client was in an informed position before you started shooting and is in effect agreeing to share any additional risk. IF you were to suffer a failure with an SD card and your client was expecting you, as a professional, to use SxS cards then you'd better be able to afford to pay for the res-shoot or have very good indemnity insurance. In the clients mind you may not have taken all reasonable precautions to protect his footage. Perhaps this is a bit dramatic and I am being over the top, but this could happen. Very unlikely perhaps, the odds are that used correctly it won't happen, but it is the "What if" scenarios that can come back you bite very hard.

I agree with David that if using SD cards over SxS means that nothing has to be erased until the production is finished, it does reduce the risk of accidental loss of data. I guess this has to be balanced against the slightly lower reliability of SD cards compared to SxS. It's in situations like this where it is best to keep the client in the loop so they know and understand the decisions you make.

IF you can afford SxS card then go with it.
Very important when you use SD card - follow the rules as David's post.
I have been using SDHC card (ATP Pro & Sandisk Extreme) for last 3 years with many projects and never have any problem.

I did have one problem when the first time I used SD (Sandisk Ultra II class 4) - but the error was OE. I did not wait for the green LED before turn off.

If you decided to go with SD card - buy a good one and from a reputable vendor - cheap & reliable won't come together :-)

I agree with David that if using SD cards over SxS means that nothing has to be erased until the production is finished, it does reduce the risk of accidental loss of data. I guess this has to be balanced against the slightly lower reliability of SD cards compared to SxS.
The only thing I'd add is that from all I've heard the risk of data loss from SDHC failure is small compared to the risk of deletion through finger trouble. It's a classic case of quantifying risk accurately - and that's not something humans are very good at.

The point is that SDHC cards may be advocated not to just save money and buy cheaper memory - but rather to allow for a different workflow than if SxS or P2 cards have to be used. A workflow where no card needs to be formatted until the production is completed. And OVERALL I believe that to have far less risk.

And the point about not powering off or ejecting media if it may be being written too can't be stressed too highly. I'm coming increasingly to tfhe conclusion that this is behind the great majority of horror stories - don't be in too much of a hurry.

As I have said many times before, my normal workflow is to pop every SxS card into my PXU-MS240 and clone it immediately after being ejected from the camera. It's the fastest, easiest, safest way to make an instant backup. I've never had any problems with an SxS card, but anything can get lost, stolen, destroyed, or accidentally formatted. The MS240 is great insurance. A Nexto would also be a good alternative.

Sony Product Detail Page PXUMS240 (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-PXUMS240/)

It's the fastest, easiest, safest way to make an instant backup.
One of the stories I heard consisted of using such a device to copy the contents of a card, then putting card back into camera and formatting. All went well (technically) no question of the device not doing a good job. Unfortunately, it was the half full (and unbacked up) card in the other slot that got formatted - the gremlins had got into the operators finger!

It's very easy to say "that would never happen to me". That was pretty well what the unfortunate person above had always said in the past. Point is that very high technical reliability is little use if workflow risk factors are greater.

And the trouble is that humans tend to see technology as inherently risky, themselves much less so........ Wrong!

Just as a tip rather than the ongoing SD v SxS debate.

I use SD for almost everything I shoot, each card is tested before using it. I let the camera run until the card is full , erase it and then repeat the test etc. Not had any failures since owning the EX3 in 2009 or was it 2008?

The TIP:

As for overcranking, I have not found any SD card that is reliable for overcranking use. However, I put a 8gb card in the camera to capture any sequence and then transfer the file in camera to a SD card if I need to shoot more material. Ideally a second 16gb SxS card would be a good choice, but as Sony are still charging monopoly money for this, it is not an option that I will consider.

Unfortunately, it was the half full (and unbacked up) card in the other slot that got formatted - the gremlins had got into the operators finger!

I almost never have more than one card in the camera.

The real solution is to have enough SxS cards to complete the project without erasing cards.

While I agree that the MS240 is a convenient and fast way to back up media, it doesn't get around the need to have enough media for the shoot unless you start erasing cards and re-using them. In which case using the MS240 significantly increases your risk of failure as you are now entrusting all you media from the shoot to a single spinning disc. Much better to use the NextoDI 2500 and make a clone copy (which the 2500 can do without the need for a computer) or even better the 2525 to make two simultaneous copies to two separate drives.

Are you using the 2525 for all your shoots?

No, not every shoot. I have a 2500, but I only use it on shoots where I need to backup on location. It becomes a godsend up in the arctic as I can make double backups without needing a laptop. Last year I had about 400GB of data from the video cameras and time-lapse DSLR's by the end of my Northern Lights shoot. It also works well when I need to hand off a hard drive to the client at the end of the shoot. I backup to the 2500 throughout the day and then plug in the client's USB drive at the end of the day and make a clone copy. The 2525 would be faster as it uses eSata but 2.5" eSata drives are not all that common and most clients provide USB drives. The SxS cards don't get erased until a verified clone has been made, whats nice is that before you erase an SxS card you can pop it in the 2500 and it will confirm (or not) that the entire contents of the card have been backed up.

I have 10 x 16GB SxS and 4 x 32GB SxS so I rarely need to backup mid shoot. What's more of a headache is dealing with DPX files from the F3/Gemini.

Anyone have horror stories or praise for using SD cards and an adaptor rather than the Sony SxS express cards for recording ?
i don't shoot S&Q on SDHC, i only use Sandisk cards, 1400 hours haven't lost a single clip, had a few 'media needs to be restored', but i also had that with SxS used;

ALISTER QUOTE: "I have 10 x 16GB SxS and 4 x 32GB SxS so I rarely need to backup mid shoot."

Once again, you have missed the point of my post. I never said I backed up in the field so I could erase and reuse cards. I never do that because I also have enough SxS cards to get through a day.

I use my MS240 to backup every card as soon as it comes out of the camera because you don't know what might physcially happen to a card once it is not in the camera anymore. It can be lost, stolen, accidentally reformated, or damaged in many different ways. By backing up the card in the MS240 immediately, I have some added insurance against disaster that only takes a couple of minutes and doesn't require a computer, power supply, extra drives, or any cables.

I actually do what I preach.

Once again, you have missed the point of my post.

No I didn't. Like I said, the MS240 doesn't get around the need to have enough media for the shoot unless you start erasing cards and re-using them. It may allow you to backup as you go, no problem there, but you still have to have enough media and it doesn't matter whether you have a MS240 or Nexto or whatever, if a card goes bad, backing may be impossible anyway and isn't going to help you. A big part of this thread is about the compromise between using SxS and maybe not having enough media or using SD cards and having plenty of media and balancing the risk of having to backup and delete cards during the shoot or using possible less reliable media and not having to back it up.

I actually do what I preach. Meaning?????

Let's keep it friendly guys, it's not a competition to see who has the best XDCAM workflow... although it is apparently on the cards for the 2016 Olympics.

It is an important point that many of the "backup devices" have no built in redundancy. I was talking to a producer a few weeks ago who wanted me to dump everything onto a Nexto and then erase the cards. I had to explain the risks involved and alter the workflow accordingly. Some less technical people just read the "quick and easy backup" headline and think that's the job done.

Backup devices also increase risk as they can contain many times more footage than a single card, so a single failure or loss can be more catastrophic.

Personally, I have a few SD cards for emergency use but hardly ever use them. I shoot almost exclusively on SXS cards and don't erase them until everything is in the edit. The SD cards just give me that little buffer should I need it. I judge the risk of shooting to SD cards as lower than the risk of backing up and erasing SXS media in the field.

I find that two 32GB cards will see me through almost any shooting day and that means I don't even have to take a card out of the camera in the field. I only do that in the after wrap when I can concentrate on my workflow. For that reason I would recommend 32GB or 64GB cards. I also see no real world advantage of SXS over SXS-1 unless you are using an Alexa (which can't use SXS-1 apparently).

Agreed Mike.

That's why I use the clone function on the 2500 to make a second copy. If I was buying a new Nexto it would be the 2525 as this automatically makes two copies at the same time if you wish.

I still like the 16GB cards. I can often segregate different parts of a shoot on to different cards which helps the editor go straight to the material he wants. It also means that should you loose a card or erase a card by mistake the data loss is smaller. Many production insurance policies stipulate a maximum of 60 minutes per piece of solid state media where there is no backup. If I was buying new media I would probably get 32GB cards, don't think I want to have more than that for an EX or PMW.

Interesting about the 60 mins insurance limit.. I was going to get 3X64GB cards for PMW500.. but the cards themselves wouldn't mount on my mac OS..although the new UDF software they probably do.. so i got 6 x 32 GB.. and now Im quite happy I did.. Ive gone into the 4th card in one day only once so far..

Also got a very good portabrace SXS card holder.. nice to have them all in the one place rather than floating around.. plus you can put back shot ones upside down into the case to show they are shot ..

Seems to me the best idea is to only ever have one person in charge of the cards.. i.e. me.. unless a designated wrangler.. and never down load in the field.. if i shoot 6 x 32GB cards in a day then the day is over .. !!

Yes, there should only ever be one person in charge of media on a shoot. On bigger shoots where I have a DiT or Data wrangler I like to go completely hands off with the media. In other words if a card is full, I won't touch it, I will get the DiT to remove it from the camera and handle it from there. No one else is allowed to touch the cards. A good DiT or data wrangler will log and document every card and everything thats done to that card, along with checksums for the amount of data.

I was stereographer on a production recently shooting on epics in 3D. We had a very good DiT, but one morning the camera operator tried to be helpful by putting fresh cards in the cameras before the DiT had arrived on set. The first thing the DiT did when he arrived was to prepare cards for the day by erasing them. Fortunately when he came to the two cards removed by the camera operator his logs told him that those cards had not been backed up (and fact should have been in the camera) so nothing was lost, but it shows that you must delegate media management to just one person. In addition that person should not just be the runner or a friend that wants to help. It is a critical role on the crew. A good DiT will not only manage the data but also check through the footage and look for any potential problems. On big multi-camera shoots with multiple data wranglers I like to allocate specific wranglers/DiT's to specific cameras.

I am showing my ignorance here, what does DiT stand for?

Digital Imaging Technician

Thank you Robin, I knew the Best Boy would come up with an answer

anything for the Key Dolly Grip

DiT is a role that encompasses many things. It can be someone that looks after camera setup, recording, data management and some aspects of the post workflow. DiT's are very often associated with cameras like RED where as well as data wrangling there is also the role of processing the raw footage and producing on set dailies for playback and quality control. A DiT will often act as an intermediary between the DoP and Post Production to ensure that the DoP's style and way of shooting will work with the post workflow. It's becoming an increasingly important role. A good DiT will know how to set up the camera, know it's menu's, picture settings, any quirks or peculiarities, the recording system and how to handle the media through to post. On a video shoot the DiT often replaces the Clapper - Loader role.

A Data Wrangler will be involved only with data handling and data management. The data wrangler does not normally do anything with the camera other than possibly remove and replace recording media, although on most shoots this will be done by the camera operator or AC. The data wrangler is responsible for backing up, processing and archiving footage. Managing that footage and ensuring it's safe delivery to post production.

Thank you for the detailed explanation Alister. With new technology comes new jobs and new titles, although I am surprised that the industry couldn't come up with a more quirky name for the job. Maybe just call this guy the "Dity man"

Anyone else got a quirky name for the DiT

The old quirky ones.. best boy,gaffer,grip,clapper loader,dolly grip,runner.. are old film terms.. more techie now.. data wrangler is a bit funky at least..

Since cards are relatively new in the video business, let me chime in with my workflow as a pro stills photographer, a field where cards are common for over 12 years now:

- always have enough cards to complete a shoot, never erase on site
- handle the cards yourself, turn the used ones upside dosn in their pouch
- buy the most reliable cards available (not the same as most expensive ones)
- back up the original files as soon as you get to the studio, on 3 different harddisks
- use one harddisk as your 'daily database'
- put one harddisk in your safe
- put one harddisk in another safe location.

I've been working like this for over 12 years now and I only lost one shoot, in the very beginning of the digital era: data were lost because of my own ignorance: I removed a card without shutting off the Nikon D1.
Last but certainly not least: set up your own classification & filing system, that permits you to find any shoot in less than 15 minutes.

Last but certainly not least: set up your own classification & filing system, that permits you to find any shoot in less than 15 minutes.

Good advice Luc, but finding a shoot within 15 minutes?

are you using a steam powered computer.?

Seems everyone is in the dark that Sony released a new firmware for the EX1 and EX1R that allows it to support XQD cards now. Version 1.30 is now out. EX3 has no new updates unfortunately.

I'd be surprised if you could still use Clip Browser 2.6 and Overcrank on Media Adapters on 1.30. EX1R version 1.10 introduced the SDHC adapter and warned you couldn't overcrank, but I'm on 1.20 and I can still overcrank using Sony's SDHC adapter.

Good advice Luc, but finding a shoot within 15 minutes?

are you using a steam powered computer.?

I meant 'maximum' 15 minutes, of course. Could be more in the early morning, as the computer in my head doesn't start working before 10 p.m.

I am sure you mean 10.am

My head computer hasn't been working properly for the last five years

A quick tale about SD cards from the weekend not involving the EX1 but proving how sturdy these little devices are.

I won't bore you with the details but a Sandisk Extreme card ended up fully submerged in river water for nearly half an hour. Cue a lot of worry.

However when the card fully dried out all the data barring the final clip was recovered (this would have been a write fail rather than a card fail). Card is sitting on my desk and is quite happy. They are apparently good for 72 hours in water so half hour or so wasn't a problem.

SanDisk cards environmental tolerance (waterproof, temperature, magnetic and x-ray proof) (http://kb.sandisk.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4687/~/sandisk-cards-environmental-tolerance-(waterproof,-temperature,-magnetic-and)

So the next time someone starts saying how SD cards are flimsy and unreliable perhaps they were just using the wrong cards?

Marcus,

I attended a Samsung memory card launch last year, we were all told we could help ourselves to a 16gb SD HC memory card (one of the many press perks), The cards were in a tank full of sea water together with fish and had been there for over 24 hours. I Didn't manage to catch a fish but I have been using the SD card for 14 months without any problems.

Thanks for the memory Sam | photo-i - digital photography (http://www.photo-i.co.uk/2011/07/thanks-for-the-memory-sam/)

Marcus,

I attended a Samsung memory card launch last year, we were all told we could help ourselves to a 16gb SD HC memory card (one of the many press perks), The cards were in a tank full of sea water together with fish and had been there for over 24 hours. I Didn't manage to catch a fish but I have been using the SD card for 14 months without any problems.

Thanks for the memory Sam | photo-i - digital photography (http://www.photo-i.co.uk/2011/07/thanks-for-the-memory-sam/)

I only use the Sandisk Extreme or ATP cards as both are waterproof, static proof etc. I don't think it's worth considering any card that isn't "toughened". The price differential is tiny.

My ex1r package was labeled as ex1r/2 so there were no sxs cards inside. Paid close to 8k$ for the camera and there wasn't even ONE sony memory stick with a 8 gb sd card. Nothing... Had to use my hdd with an adapter for the first few hours of shooting.

Their cameras are nice, but i think Sony is ripping people off with their overpriced media. Look at the upcoming GH3. Records 50mbits onto sdhc cards and nobody will question that.

I'm using a ATP Pro max 32 gb and a 32gb Sandisk Extreme Pro card on MXM adapters. No problems so far. Why would there be anyway? As long as the media is tested and trusty (i had a problem with another adapter manufacturer but won't comment about that in here), and as long as i remain calm and don't pull the card out as soon as i stop the record, i won't have any troubles at all. Comparing to my old Canon mvx20i, which was a minidv, i can wait 5-6 seconds after i stop recording. Back then recording then previewing something used to take at least 20 seconds, and even more when you were going to import to the pc. You people know this better than me anyway.

I'm an amateur and i'm not a rich person. I don't see myself spending unnecessary cash on overpriced media. As long as there are alternatives, i'll support them instead.

I am now on Firmware 1.30 on my EX1R and still, no problems.

You can even update your firmware using SDHC by simply putting the Update .BIN file in the "SONY" folder. (at least with the Sony SDHC adapter. Fine for 1.20->1.30, but not for older EX1s.)