View Full Version : Should I get a Sony PCM D-1


Michael Thames
July 8th, 2012, 08:52 AM
I've been lusting after the Sony PCM D-1...... I have a Sony PCM-D-50 that I use for recording guitar music by various artist who play my guitars ( I'm a guitar maker) I've been fairly happy with the D-50, but I think I'm ready to move up to something better. I like the ease and portability of the Sony....... question is........ is the PCM D-1 a good choice? I hear some compression with the D-50 that I'd like to get away from. In sound comparisons between the D-1 and D-50 the D-1 really sounds broader, and deeper, more realistic! I hear and have read nothing but rave reviews for the D-1.

I've read that for under $2000.00 you can't beat the sony. Any thoughts or comments would be welcome. Thanks.

BTW, the video was shot with a Canon A-1 and a Canon HV-40 both with Letus DOF adopters, it was my first time using the letus........ this will take some more experience.
Michael Chapdelaine plays Romance - YouTube

Peter Phelan
July 8th, 2012, 11:55 AM
Although using a simple portable recorder with x y onboard mics can be effective, I would suggest looking at a couple of matched condenser mics, (We use a couple of Rode NT5's for recording our Martin acoustic guitars) a small mixer and experimenting with different types of mic placement, before spending out on the D-1. See: Acoustic Guitar Recording Techniques (http://www.humbuckermusic.com/acguitrectec.html)

for example. The SN ratio of the D50 is pretty good, but you might find a broadcast quality pre amp worthwhile too.

Peter
(oh... you can get an idea of my background here: http://www.weavergreen.co.uk)

Michael Thames
July 8th, 2012, 09:34 PM
Thanks Peter, I have an Akai, blue tube, and a couple of mics..... ha ha! not great ones..... but I like the ability to just bring one device for concerts and different recording situations. I've read it's hard to find the same quality in any recording set up that the sony offers, foe under $2000.00.

Perhaps I could use the D-1 as the main mic, and the D-50 as an ambient mic?

Peter Phelan
July 9th, 2012, 12:33 AM
Hi Michael,

The D-1 is obviously a great machine; and it sounds to me like you have already decided to buy it and are looking for confirmation of your decision? -:)

I only questioned whether, without going to separate mics and a more "studio" like setup, you would really notice a sufficient amount of difference between the two machines. I have neither myself; just the litttle M-10 - with Beachtek XLR adapter, separate mics and separate very high quality pre-amp - for use with my Canon DSLR's.

When in doubt, "get both"! -:) ...you are certainly not going to be disappointed with a D-1. As you say, this would provide a very compact way of getting good ambient and instrument sound; well separated for later making up into location recordings.

Peter

Mario Vermunt
July 9th, 2012, 03:30 AM
To be honest, no, I think you should be much better off with a pair of good large diafragm condenser mics and a separate recorder. The setup for guitar recording is better with a mike pointing at the 12th fret and slightly of the hole in the body. You can connect them to a portable or non-portable recorder. I use the Sound Devices 702 which has some good preamps. Non-portable recorders are a little cheaper. It may take a little longer to setup, but you will get much better sound.

Peter Phelan
July 9th, 2012, 05:39 AM
We are both in agreement Mario - hence my initial suggestion, and including the link showing separate mic placement options etc. and certainly the way I would go. It's not that much trouble to set things up like this and with proper balanced xlr cables running back to a conveniently placed mixer, monitoring and recording would be possible well away from the actual artist.

Another option I would consider for this kind of location recording, is the new Fostex DC-302 DSLR mixer recorder; which would give phantom power, three channels and although it means buying the separate condenser mics, would provide excellent results.

But Michael seems keen on the simple portable recorder option.

Peter

Bill Bruner
July 9th, 2012, 06:54 AM
Michael - for that kind of money, I wouldn't settle for 96kHz sampling. I would want to step up to 192kHz.

Below $2000, only the Sound Devices 702 that Mario uses, the 4 channel Edirol R-44, or the Tascam HD-P2 (records to CF cards) will give you the higher sampling rate.

I really like the look of the D1, with its big VU meters - but I'd get any of the 192kHz recorders above before I'd pay over $1800 for a recorder with no XLR inputs and a 96kHz sampling rate.

Cheers,

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution (http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com/)

Garrett Low
July 9th, 2012, 09:42 AM
The Tascam DR-680 will also record at 196kHz when recording in Stereo. At $700 for the recorder you could get a couple of good mics to go with it, stay under your $2K mark, and you'd come a way with better sound than than the PCM D-1.

Peter Phelan
July 9th, 2012, 10:14 AM
Another good option of course But as an aside, we have the usual rip off Britain thing here. B&H listing the DR680 at $588.95 and the cheapest I have seen in the UK is over $900.00 ex vat; most stores list it at much more than this.

Solid State Sound for example list it at £650.00 ex vat http://www.solidstatesound.co.uk/tascam_dr680.htm

At today's exchange rate that amounts to $1007.00!

Peter

Michael Thames
July 9th, 2012, 10:37 AM
Thanks Peter Mario and Bill, you have convinced me to reconsider this. You know how it is when you want something, and get it into your mind this is it. The Sony is very seductive, and I'm not an audiophile or technocrat.

My question is this...... is the extra money spent on mic's after getting the Sound Devices 702 going to be that much more noticeable on YouTube? I mean SD-702 is $1800.00 then a couple of good mic's and you've spent $3500 to $4000 as opposed to the D-1 at $1700. The money is a consideration. I know you can spend $20,000 on audio stuff, and that's the problem...... there is no end to this stuff, and I'm not sure I want to start this addiction. I know all ready how it goes with video stuff.

Peter Phelan
July 9th, 2012, 10:59 AM
Hi Michael,

All of which brings me back to my original suggestion and thought that all you really wanted was something a bit better than the D-50? You could achieve this with a small mixer - I do not think it needs to be of the order of the SD in your case - and a couple of nice condenser mics such as the Rode's we use.

All this could be purchased for about the same as your proposed investment in the D-1 And if all you are looking for is "Youtube" stuff, I would have thought your existing D-50 would be more than adequate?

But I still think it would be better to run mics away from the artist so that you can sit comfortably some distance away, record and monitor; just run the line out from the mixer into your D-50. I would see this as building upon the gear you already have and would produce a nice sound with better operational facilities.

And yes you can go on and on buying gear, and spend a fortune, but I think the overall answer for most things has to be choose something that is "good enough for pupose".

Peter

Michael Thames
July 10th, 2012, 08:21 AM
Peter thanks, yes, I have been busy checking out all the suggestions, and have to say the Sound Devices 702 looks real good, and I found a sound comparison with SD 702 and several others and clearly the SD was far superior..... amazing actually!
Brad Linder's blog: Comparing the Sony PCM-D50, Fostex FR2-LE, Zoom H4 and Sound Devices 702 (http://www.bradlinder.net/2007/10/comparing-sony-pcm-d50-fostex-fr2-le_06.html)

One of the issues for me is I don't like "hot" guitar recordings in particular for classical guitar, I like the old fashion recording of Bream and Williams from the 60's they weren't so hot, and there was a lot of character and ambiance in their recordings. I guess I Like the XY configuration more than one mic aimed at the 12 fret and the other at the sound hole.

I know of a guy who has two Neuman 184 mics and Sound Devices (I think) and he gets a terrible sound, or I should say the antithesis to my conception of good sound, because he adds way too much reverb, and everything sounds too ethereal. You can have all the right equipment but, not the best ear. I have a good friend (a guitarist) who is about to buy the Sony D1 on recommendation buy an award winning audio engineer and he simply says get the Sony...... or spend 4 years going to school and $20,000 on some equipment, he also pointed out there is a difference with the Sony and SD in regards to the circuitry ( I don't understand) in which the Sony is better So, I'm torn in between the advice from this audio engineer, and the Sound Devices 702. He also points out that no one except a trained professional will hear the sample rate difference between 96 kHZ and 192.... maybe he is stretching the truth a little, I don't know.

The lowest cost of the Sony is around $1650.00
Tom Waits - I'm Still Here - YouTube

The other issue is I don't think my editing software supports 192 kHZ....... and will this be difference really be heard on YouTube or DVD's or downloaded from iTunes?

Thanks for everyones input, you really got me thinking more.

Peter Phelan
July 10th, 2012, 09:41 AM
Thanks for the update Michael, and glad this little discussion has helped; even if you still have to make the final decision!

Audio quality, and what one finds pleasant to the ear, is a subjective thing really isn't it? You can only listen to so many people's thoughts, but must then reach your own conclusion. But I do agree with your audio engineer about sample rates. Do let us all know the results of your deliberations in due course!

Peter.

Michael Thames
July 11th, 2012, 08:20 AM
Peter....... dang, I'm still undecided. One more question. Between the Sound devices 702, and say the Fostex, or Edirol R 44 what's the difference....... the pre amps? Being, some what un-knowlegable, or just learning would I know, or hear a difference?

Peter, I notice you are in the wood business also.

BTW, I wonder is this stuff worth anything, I have two Akai dr1's, maybe I can sell some of it to cover the cost of the new stuff.

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa334/MichaelThames/IMG_0014.jpg

Peter Phelan
July 11th, 2012, 11:07 AM
Hi Michael,

Decisions decisions! ... as I said earlier, I do not think there is anything wrong with the recording quality of the D-50 you already have; especially if you use the line in. So although one of the other field recorders mentioned would be good, just adding a modest mixer and a couple of condenser mics to your kit, would in my view, give pefectly acceptable results.

Visiting an audio store and listening to various options I suppose is the only real way to judge things; but Wingfield Audio have some useful portable recorder samples on their site, which might help.

I am all for research etc, but sometimes feel we can get too bogged down in the technical things. For example, for a couple of years recently, I photographed acoustic guitars each month for Acoustic magazine, and had the opportunity of seeing a multitude of instruments, including some pretty exotic ones. And after handling them, picking up my old Hagstom 12 string guitar I used all those years ago, it felt quite "Micky Mouse" really!

But it travelled thousands of miles, all over Europe, it was used used on radio and tv sessions, and on all the Weavers Green singles and album. So with it, I earned a very respectable living for over 8 years on the road and in the recording studio.

So I have to ask, would I have earned any more, or had a better time if I had played a more expensive guitar? I somehow doubt it. We just bought what we could afford and "went on the road". Any of the solutions mentioned here would provide great audio and on a practical level I do not think you would hear much difference whichever route you choose.

Selling gear to fund new purchases is a good thing I think; but sometimes difficult emotionally. My brother is currently lusting after a Martin 00028EC, but is reluctant to sell his existing Martin HD. Personally I doubt we'll hear that much difference in recordings, and suggested any money be spent on other aspects of the studio recording gear. But emotionally, he still wants the new guitar and finds ways to justify it.

So as you have found, decisions on most things in life are generally made from the heart not the head!

One final suggestion. Flip a coin. If you are disappointed at the outcome the coin suggests, and you make excuses like "well .. make it the best three" flips etc. you know which way your heart is leading you!

Peter

Allan Black
July 11th, 2012, 06:52 PM
Great post Peter, I have a D50 and it's great, I'm still using it with my XLR-1 48V. adaptor. But I had *fun* setting it up ...

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/all-things-audio/134700-sony-xlr-1-adaptor-pcm-d50-d1.html

Michael, I assume you're not using the limiter on your D-50?

Sounds like you're making video demos of your guitars to promote sales.

I'd try something like a juicelink 231 mixer .. CX231 Camcorder XLR Adapter/Preamp [JL-CX231] - $299.00 : juicedLink, Unique and Trusted Solutions for Audio and Video Production (http://www.juicedlink.com/audio-preamps-mixers-etc-c-66/jl-cx231) .. a range of different mics, various acoustic locations and mic positions before I opted for the D-1.

And get creative, dress the set, lighting to suit the music and camera angles etc. Like a pro adv agency did it, even look to asking a pro creative director and DP for advice. I'd also produce a CD and mail it out once you get folk interested, it'll get passed around.
When a name guitarist comes to town, try and nail him.

And unless you learn how to correctly dither the higher sampling rates, I'd stay away from them.
The law of diminishing returns would come into play, most folk wouldn't notice the difference.

Cheers.

Michael Thames
July 11th, 2012, 08:30 PM
Hi Allen, thanks for the info. I like that adapter! I'll have to get one of those. The guitar sales are not bad these days, but for sure doing videos is both fun and helps (or not) in promoting my guitars, however sound is number one if your showing off guitars, and it's time to move on from the D-50.

Oddly enough I've read the reviews of the D-50 but I'm not thrilled with it's sound..... there's no warmth, for recording guitars.

BTW, yes the limiter was off, should I turn it on? What does that do correct the distortion?

About higher sampling rates are you referring to 24 bit 192 hz, or the 96 hz?

I have another question........ lets say I get the JL-CX231 adopter for either the D-50 or the D-1..... is there any advantage to the sound quality of the D-1 over the D50 using the XLR adopter, or is the advantage of the D-1 in using it's own mics and pre amps?

Peter Phelan
July 12th, 2012, 01:28 AM
Michael,

>>Oddly enough I've read the reviews of the D-50 but I'm not thrilled with it's sound..... there's no warmth, for recording guitars.<<

It's why we suggest using external mics etc. and doing more than just fixing a portable recorder up in front of a guitarist.

>>is there any advantage to the sound quality of the D-1 over the D50 using the XLR adopter, or is the advantage of the D-1 in using it's own mics and pre amps? <<

As a simple portable stand alone recorder the D-1 is better; but if you use the D-50 as a pure recorder - with external mics and pre amp, I do not think you'll hear the difference. All the "warmth" etc you are after comes from the mics. It's asking too much of a little portable recorder alone to do all this. But both are fantasic recorders for what they are.

Peter

Michael Thames
July 12th, 2012, 05:46 AM
OK so, Peter and Allen yer sayin I should stick with my D50, and get the XLR adopter, and a couple of good mic's ( NT-5's) for an investment of around $900.00 instead of the D-1. The little D50 can produce the same results as the D-1 when used with mics?

So basically what yer payin for in the D-1 are the onboard mic's, and pre amps, the rest of the internal circuitry is the same?

If that's the case then I think that's what I will do, problem solved!

Peter Phelan
July 12th, 2012, 06:53 AM
Hi Michael,
In simplistic terms, yes that is our general opinion; certainly for the kind of work you outlined. And it builds upon what you already have, rather start all over again. The actual "recording" element of each Sony is very good;

see the D-50 technical specs: Sony : PCM-D50 (PCMD50) : Technical Specifications : United Kingdom (http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/product/digirecorders/pcm-d50/technicalspecs).

and the D-1 technical specs: Sony : PCM-D1 (PCMD1) : Technical Specifications : United Kingdom (http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/product/digirecorders/pcm-d1/technicalspecs)

And you will see that both have the same low signal to noise ratio when using line in. So feed it a nice warm sound from some decent xlr condenser mics and a good quality pre-amp, and I think you'll be happy with the result. You would also be able to sit comfortably away from the guitarist and monitor via headphones and watch recording levels etc.

The Juicedlink would be a nice battery operated option - it could be screwed underneath the D-50 using the tripod mount - but I mentioned a small normal mixer because you intimated you might like to also record ambient sound from live performances, and this could give more inputs.

Anyway hope all this has helped clarify things a bit! -:)

Peter

Garrett Low
July 12th, 2012, 07:11 AM
Rather than paying $450 for the XLR-1 (the Sony XLR adapter unit for the D50 or D-1), I would spend the extra money and get the Sound Devices MixPre-D. It will give you better controls, meters, and mic preamps.

I you could find a used or old stock MixPre (non D) those usually go for around $550. That would also work very well.

Michael Thames
July 13th, 2012, 10:21 AM
I'm re thinking things......... what about an Mbox, Pro tools, a good preamp, and a couple a pair of Schoeps? The portability thing really isn't that important for me, and if need be I could just buy a battery pack. The more I talk with people it seems this is what everyone is doing.

Steve House
July 13th, 2012, 10:43 AM
Depends a lot on the computer you're using for your workstation, but that gear feeding a proper DAW should give you excellent results. Note that there are other good interfaces besides the mBox and other DAW software besides ProTools to consider. Take a look at Rain Computer's website for some examples of PCs purpose-built for high-end audio recording and editing.

Garrett Low
July 13th, 2012, 10:48 AM
If portability isn't an issue then a pair of Schoeps mated to good preamps would be a great way to go. The SD mixers are good but you do pay a premium for the ability to be portable and not need plug in power. Wold you be looking at the

Just my opinion and others may definitely vary.

Garrett Low
July 13th, 2012, 10:50 AM
Steve,

What do yo think about the Echo AudiFire interfaces? I'm considering one and have heard some very good things about them for a budget box.

Thanks,

Michael Thames
July 13th, 2012, 10:52 AM
Depends a lot on the computer you're using for your workstation, but that gear feeding a proper DAW should give you excellent results. Note that there are other good interfaces besides the mBox and other DAW software besides ProTools to consider. Take a look at Rain Computer's website for some examples of PCs purpose-built for high-end audio recording and editing.

I have a Mac book pro I7........ and a 24 inch I mac. I hope I don't have to get a new computer too!

Michael Thames
July 13th, 2012, 10:54 AM
If portability isn't an issue then a pair of Schoeps mated to good preamps would be a great way to go. The SD mixers are good but you do pay a premium for the ability to be portable and not need plug in power. Wold you be looking at the

Just my opinion and others may definitely vary.

Thanks Garret you got me thinking more about things when you mentioned the SD preamp mixer......... then I went nuts with possibilities........ god help my family if I become an audiophile.

Garrett Low
July 13th, 2012, 10:58 AM
Thanks Garret you got me thinking more about things when you mentioned the SD preamp mixer......... then I went nuts with possibilities........ god help my family if I become an audiophile.

Unfortunately I am a recovering Audiophile. Yes I still have a $7000 Koetsu hand wound cartridge and turntable but I no longer listen to vinyl. You definitely can go crazy with audio.

Steve House
July 13th, 2012, 03:55 PM
Steve,

What do yo think about the Echo AudiFire interfaces? I'm considering one and have heard some very good things about them for a budget box.

Thanks,I have an AudioFire8 and an AudioFire 12. They sound very good. Early models had some problems with unreliable firewire components - both of mine have experienced them. The 8 went in for repair and has been in daily use for 2 years since coming back without any issues. The 12 has a similar problem but I haven't gotten around to sending it in to Echo yet. With that caveat, they are good interfaces.

John Hartney
July 30th, 2012, 03:35 AM
Sony d1 is simply the best handheld recorder. Go to b&h to read reviews by pro engineers. Most of the replies here are from people who have never owned one. I also use schoeps>cooper cs104>mytek stereo 192ad>aes fostex fr2. Comparing apples n oranges. D1 has excellent mic pres, line in, mics, and a drawn titanium body in a handheld form factor. The schoeps setup sounds better, but costs a lot more needs special cables and cases. You can pick up a d1 used for $800 _ 1000. I love my d1.

Reed Gidez
August 1st, 2012, 03:02 PM
I'm coming to this thread late but will put my vote in for a juiced link mixer with the Sony D-50. BTW, B&H says the D1 is "Discontinued" Sony PCM-D1 2-Channel Portable Flash Memory Audio Recorder

I also have the Roland R-26. Very neat and it has XLR inputs but I don't think it's pre's are as quiet as what you will find on a juiced link mixer.

Simon Thewlis
September 24th, 2012, 06:12 AM
I have a D-1 and it is great. But more often than not I use it with the XLR-1 and other microphones.

If it was me I'd keep the D-50 and put the money into good microphones to use with the D-50 and other devices long into the future.

Jim Andrada
September 25th, 2012, 12:29 PM
Hi Michael - long time no see. I feel sort of responsible because as I recall I got you hooked on the D-50 when we met in Santa Fe a couple of years back

I'm still using mine and for what it is it's hard to beat so I think figuring out how to get an audibly "better" result for not much money is really tough. The D-1 is in some ways "better" but is it "enough better" to justify the cost? I'm not sure. And in fact I think the D-50 (and D-1) are so much bang for the buck that it may be hard to improve on it without spending quite a bit more $$$

Separate mics will give you more flexibility but flexibility is a mixed bag - you will need to a) get good mics and recording chain and b) spend perhaps more time than you want to learning how to manage the plethora of options you will be presented with.

Re $ - I think $2k is not going to get you where you want to get in terms of improvement, nor do I think you need a $20k system to get there. Maybe more like $4k - $5k is my best guess. But the investment in time may be the bigger concern

Just advice, you have to decide for yourself of course.