I had an FS700 reserved at my dealer (in the UK) and I went to pick it up yesterday.

After trying the camera for an hour or so I cancelled the order. The camera is an ergonomic disaster! Electronically it does some clever tricks but to be honest, how often do people actually plan shooting at 240 fps? Although better than the FS100, it stills feels very cheaply made for a £5K+ camera. It is clear that very little thought has gone into how this camera will actually be used by the operator - the unbalanced brick design; the wobbly VF; the screen that can't be used for high angles, the distance between the lens and essential controls... the list goes on!

These are not minor details, they are major issues! Everyone gets very obsessed with charts and frame rates and specs but ergonomics are a crucial part of how effectively and quickly you can shoot with a camera. I know that this design would limit my creativity and so decided to wait for a camera that had some thought go into it. Sure I could add EVFs, rails, supports etc but this is not only a compromise, it also adds thousands of pounds to the price of the camera.

Meanwhile I'm still delighted with my PMW350 two and a half years on, so Sony can do it when they try!

Well said, Mike. I still find it crazy that the DSLR shallow DoF fad has affected ergonomics/basic common sense to this extent. So few of the cameras released in the last few years take account of the ergonomic necessities of working in production. For instance, I find it mind-boggling that JVC chose to update the ProHD line with full HD chips and then combined that overdue move with ergonomics/form factor that apes the XF305 and other similar over-sized palmcorders. The JVC line was just about the only lower cost pro camera that had sensible ergonomics... I understand the desire for light weight compared to, say, older DigiBeta and DVCAM ENG products but surely this excellent new sensor, processor and memory technology can be installed in a body that we can use on a real-world shoot?

Mike - I feel your pain. Thank you for the "Emperor has no clothes" post. I still want the camera for what it can do, but agree with much of what you say on the ergonomics.

Now a memo to manufacturers:

Will one of you please build a real large sensor (m4/3 at least, S35 preferable and full frame in my dreams), shoulder mounted interchangeable lens camcorder with, at a minimum:

- a 50mbps (give or take a few megabits) broadcast ready codec,
- a reasonable choice of framerates,
- 1080p resolution (at least),
- a power zoom rocker (compatible with affordable non-extending power zoom lenses like the Panasonic 45-175),
- bulletproof autofocus,
- a large, bright rotatable side-mounted EVF,
- a built in ND filter,
- affordable media (SD or CF or SSD),
- full manual audio gain control with metering, a headphone jack and a speaker for playback,
- pro connectivity (XLR and HD-SDI at a minimum), and
- 8MP+ still photos at least as good as an iPhone, Galaxy S III or FS700 for production stills

No more palmcorders with XLR inputs, still cameras masquerading as video cameras, or bizarre bricks with "viewfinders" on top, please.

We will pay you real money for this. At $10,000 it would be a good value for money - at $8000 you'll sell loads of them. At $5000, you won't be able to make them fast enough.

If you pull a C300 on us and try to charge us $20,000 or more, you won't sell many because we will simply struggle along with what we have.

But we won't be happy with you.

Thank you.

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution (http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com)

Meanwhile I'm still delighted with my PMW350 two and a half years on, so Sony can do it when they try!

Sadly they don't try often enough or nearly enough.

Cheers.

I think that the title of this thread is slightly inappropriate. It seems to indicate some hidden flaw in the camera that would only reveal itself after delivery.

There can't be many who would commit themselves to a camera costing over £5K without getting some hands-on especially when the FS100 and FS700 have had so many reviews in which comment at length on the ergonomics of the beasts. So when the box is opened and out pops the awaited device, just how many will be genuinely surprised and feel hurt that they weren't warned. This thread just contains the views of some of those who clearly don't like the design, but there are also many out there who do find it suits their requirements.

For the record, I wouldn't dismiss or rave about it even though I have briefly handled the FS100.

I am with you Steve. certainly I don't like the ergonomics of my FS100 compared to my EX3. Still I want to get my hands on a FS700. And though I wish there was a succesor of the EX3 with many of the specs of the FS700, it just isn't there. Still I think that it is incredible, the choice of affordable camera's we have today. I believe we are very privilaged these days.

This is a "cinema style" camera. It is NOT designed as an eng camera. This is clearly meant to have accessories and give the end user a zillion options as to how it's mounted and used. Maybe I've been numbed by several years of making my DSLRs work in any rig I could think up but I have no problem with this design. I will be purchasing at the end of the summer and it will fit perfectly on my shoulder rig, crane, Steadicam, slider, dolly, and tripod. If I need eng functionality I will call on my xf300. Would it be nice to have one camera fit every style of shooting? Of course! But that's not gonna happen anytime soon. Choose the right tool for the job.

And on a seperate note, at least those in the Sony camp still have the option of buying shoulder mount cameras! Canon has taken that option away from its users!

This is a "cinema style" camera. It is NOT designed as an eng camera. This is clearly meant to have accessories and give the end user a zillion options as to how it's mounted and used.

Robert, that is what I had hoped the camera would be but it isn't. It is an ergonomic mess. Even with all the accessories in the world, the switches are still in the wrong place. Look at arguably the most popular "cinema camera," the Alexa. Arri understand how a camera works as an extension of the operator. The FS700 is an impressive box of electronics with a lens mount, I really wanted the FS700 but could see no way to make it function in the way I require (for the record I shoot just about everything apart from ENG, including being a Steadicam op).

The reason I started the thread is because I know that demand has led to people ordering blind which is always a bad idea. Luckily I have a great dealer who held their very first camera for me without deposit or commitment.

My other motive is to try and stop this acceptance of poor design that is prevalent in the mid range camera market. I agree that the "DSLR revolution"is partly to blame but sloppy design is the real culprit.

In response to Steve points, yes it may be able to be accessorised to meet some peoples' needs but wouldn't you prefer a decent design to start with? Do you think this is a well designed camera? As a professional should I remain silent when the tools I would like to use are falling way short in certain areas? I'll happily praise what I like but also criticise that which I don't. Other opinions are available :)

Fair enough...and I was just offering another view to what I thought the point of your post was. Most who complain of ergonomics expect ENG-style.

Now, comparing the FS700 to an Alexa is quite a stretch. They have completely different buyers. As for ergos, to me the buttons and controls on the 700 look completely manageable and very similar to other Sony cameras. The Alexa on the other hand is...well...on the other hand! Looks backwards to me! And I probably won't get a chance to handle an Alexa so I'm obviously in a different category of shooter.

Just a reinforcement for your statement about poor design...I purchased the 5D mkIII which is an amazing improvement in picture quality and a few other areas but the geniuses at Canon felt the need to mix up all the buttons. Having come from the 7D, it makes no sense. Then I looked at a friend's mkII and they're different from the 7D AND mkIII. Essentially making it necessary to learn all 3 and hope you remember which one you're shooting with! And that's within the same brand!!!

We must make due with what's available though and the FS700 looks like the logical next camera for the type of work I do. I'll be reading all the reviews and comments up til the day I pull the trigger. Hopefully Canon will answer with a sub-$10k camera...the one we all hoped the C300 was going to be!

I had an FS700 reserved at my dealer (in the UK) and I went to pick it up yesterday....
After trying the camera for an hour or so I cancelled the order. The camera is an ergonomic disaster! Electronically it does some clever tricks but to be honest, how often do people actually plan shooting at 240 fps? Meanwhile I'm still delighted with my PMW350 two and a half years on, so Sony can do it when they try!

Mike, comparing the FS700 to a PMW350 shoulder-mount ENG camera is like apples and oranges. I would say there are a lot of DOP's out there who shoot slo-mo and are buying this camera specifically for this purpose.

We have bought the camera to supplement our F3, not our Varicam. With all due respect, your original post sounded slightly hysterical and was specific to your needs and expectations; not necessarily the majority of FS700 buyers.

I had an FS700 reserved at my dealer (in the UK) and I went to pick it up yesterday.

After trying the camera for an hour or so I cancelled the order. The camera is an ergonomic disaster!

I don't get it Mike.

Pictures of the 700 are around since when?
A lot of guys (including me) did extensive tests and shared their results with the community,
So you knew exactly what you will get.
And you found out, that you don't like the ergonomics after you played with it for an hour?
Did you actually think, they completely gonna change the design in the production model?

"Warning" treads like that really crack me up.
It's almost insulting to all th guys that put a lot of time in testing those cameras for the community.
Going trough any micro detail in hard and software, writing articles and blogs, answering thousands of questions,
all that - for what?


So at what point did you reserve the camera and why?

For the record: I shoot with the FS100 since day one - on sticks, dolly, shoulder and Steadycam - commercials, narrative andwhatnot, without the feeling of handling an "ergonomic desaster" same is true for the 700.
Actually I really like the ergonomics of them, I can work em both hoodwinked.

Frank

No worries, Mike. Your dealer will have no problem selling your camera.
There are plenty who are more than happy with the FS100/700 ergos and love the picture quality - like me.

I don't get it Mike.
"Warning" treads like that really crack me up.
It's almost insulting to all th guys that put a lot of time in testing those cameras for the community.
Going trough any micro detail in hard and software, writing articles and blogs, answering thousands of questions,
all that - for what?
Frank

I've never said +1 in a thread, but I will now. +1

I agree wholeheartedly with the complaints about the misleading nature of the original title of this thread.

Therefore I have re-named it from "A word of warning about the FS700!" to "Not happy with FS700 ergonomics" which is a much more accurate description of the content within.

Appropriate thread titles are critically important to the success of any online forum site. Therefore I need your help with this kind of issue should it come up again... please, if you see an ambiguous or misleading thread title, simply report it by clicking the little "!" icon at the bottom left of any post, which will bring it to the attention of myself and the moderators. Thanks in advance,

As an FS100 owner, I wish the monitor was in a location that allows for better shoulder mount shooting, but I get that its a cinema camera and not an ENG cam and I knew that before buying. Now I shoot like an old medium format camera instead of like you would with a Z1U or a shoulder cam. Aside from that and a so-so top handle (the 700's looks marginally better), I really like the ergonomics of the FS design - all the controls are easy to access, lots of vital functions are not buried in menus, very customizable, and once you get it set up to your liking its a very efficient workflow ... much more so than any DSLR. YMMV.

Thanks for all who have commented about relevance of the thread's title. I could have just said that this started out as a rant with an attention grabbing title by someone who had a personal dislike of the FS100/700 physical design but I didn't want to get into a slanging match.
As someone who has been waiting over 2 years for a replacement for the EX1R, I would like to see something a little more suitable for run & gun but the FS100/700 series is clearly not designed for that. To say that it is 'sloppy' design is hardly an objective view. It is widely reported that Sony committed a lot of resources, seeking the views of experienced users. Its features like the proliferation of 1/4 Whitworth threads are a direct response to users diverse accessory mounting needs. There are design aspects that seem to have missed the mark, e.g. the LCD screen position, the 'so-so' handle and the lack of built-in ND filter wheel (the later two fixed on the FS700). The F3 and Alexa don't have the same potential design weaknesses, but even at 3 times and 10 times the FS100 cost, they aren't without their foibles. Any rational criticism must take this into consideration.
As far as image quality is concerned, the FS series of S35 cameras seem to be well received and cannot be compared to half and two thirds inch sensor ENG style designs. These low-cost S35 cameras are a strong response to the SLR incursions into the video market.They give cleaner video with less hassle. Only the Full Frame micro DOF junkies would have issues with that.

Those that can work around the ergonomics, have done so and we all love the picture.

There are shoots where you need something like an EX1 or an ENG camera. The shoulder-mount ethic with an ENG long reach lens is popular for good reason - it worked well. Going from a shoulder mount ENG camera and lens with a total budget of £20k and up to an FS100 or FS700 is a bit of a leap if you're doing the same kind of work. If you're used to a van, why give it up for a motorcycle and side car? A motorbike & side car is an ergonomic nightmare compared to a van, but compared to a motorbike it's a great alternative if you have to carry stuff.

Please do hand back the FS700 to the dealer. It's not for you. It was a mistake, and all's done now.

Meanwhile, I spent a lovely jolly morning with Sam Morgan Moore yesterday, and we're almost there in transforming my FS700 into a R&G, broadcast spec, shoulder mounted dream machine that, in my specialised niche of our industry, simply pees all over a PMW-350 (what I almost bought after the EX1) for what I have to do. It's not quite ENG because of the lens; the bracketry and accessories cost the same as the camera, but for me I am very happy. You'd hate it, I love it.

The FSx00 series cameras are lego bricks. You have to budget for lots of other bolt on goodies to make the camera work. It's a system camera, and like owning a Hasselblad, if you don't get some extra backs for it, a bagful of glass for the front of it and no end of twiddly bits for the rest of it, you are going to feel a little restricted.

It will come down to the final pictures. EX1 was 'good enough' for me until the FS100 - which had flaws in highlights that the FS700 now fixes. Because of the pictures, I'm going to wave goodbye to one of my EX1s and shoot with an FS100 and FS700 because the pictures are so much better, and I'll be shooting onto a PIX220 because the sound is great and the post is quick and easy beyond reason.

But if it's a shootout requiring x20 zoom and there's somebody else to manage batteries, your old camera would win. I only mention that because the time it takes to go fetch another V-Lock when one's diesel powered shoulder-cam runs out is beaten by a camera that runs on a teeny weeny NP-f970 all day. :)

I have re-named it from "A word of warning about the FS700!" to "Not happy with FS700 ergonomics" which is a much more accurate description of the content

Apologies Chris, my mistake. Whilst I was at the dealer I was told that other dealers were taking full payment upfront before people had a chance to even see demo units. It was a knee jerk title and yours is definitely better!

Frank, how do you have your camera rigged? If I could make it "work" ergonomically, I'd love to!

I'm only offering my thoughts to the community as you offered yours, why is that insulting? If I like something, I'll say like it, if I don't, I'll say that I don't. I like Sony kit and if anything, I was doing my best to try and like the camera as electronically it is a work of genius. However, that only amplified my frustrations with the ergonomic short comings.

Steve, in my opinion "sloppy" is the perfect description for the objective reasons that I listed. The camera is laid out as a palmcorder but is virtually impossible to use in that configuration. It makes no sense to me. I was not expecting an Alexa, that was only a response to the post that claimed the FS700 is laid out as a cinema camera.

Maybe I'm just old school and mourn for an Aaton XTR!

Maybe I'm just old school and mourn for an Aaton XTR!

+1 on that. Trouble is, you need to visit the parts bin to take your domestic runabout into a track day special - see pic below and many others who have been down that road.

To this, add a simple yet comfortable shoulder pad, a V-lock on a D-tap adaptor at the rear, get rid of the kit lens, adapt the main camera support to ensure lens is in the middle of rails and matte box but uses the same tripod adaptor as everything else. The idea is that the rig must be in 3 bits: front end, back end, and middle/camera support - the whole thing to live in same bag as tripod, and fit thereon.

The new FS700 grip can be attached with a spud to replace RH grip, but moot point until Sony do 'Expanded Focus' on HDMI and/or SDI output, so rely on EVF button for that for now.

So what you have is a sort of skeletal PMW-350 (and then some) sans ENG lens. Aaton? Not quite - but Caleb Crosby does this:

https://www.shootingmachine.net/products/cinegrip-mark-3

+1

My question is: why do I have to "visit the parts bin", buy hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of rig in addition to the camera, and figure out how to piece it together myself? I'm no dummy, but it has been a real challenge for me to figure out "rails", shoulder pads, offset adapters, EVFs, and all of the other stuff one needs to make a DSLR or palmcorder into a shoulder mount. I'm not saying that manufacturers shouldn't continue to make customizable palmcorders like the FS series, or that these cameras are not wonderful cameras and usable as they are right out of the box.

What I am saying, is that we should acknowledge that these ergonomic challenges are a real problem for some people (without disparagement or feeling insulted because they've pointed out these challenges). In my view this is a real opportunity for manufacturers -- to offer large sensor interchangeable lens DSLRs/palmcorders for those who prefer handheld or custom rigs and rails - and shoulder mounts for those who don't (e.g., the HMC-40 and HMC-80).

Cheers,

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution (http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com)

HMC-40 & 80 - interesting.

Does this match a Sony equivalent, which is basically a Sony A1 in a boxed setup that is mostly fresh air inside?

Whilst it's partly about ergonomics, it's also partly about client perception - in that shoulder mounted cameras are perceived to be more 'professional' than handheld cameras. We can recall the 'working with a bigger camera' debate from the likes of Kiefer Sutherland, and that has a trickle-down effect in low-to-mid end corporates and event video. It can (egad) really matter.

I'd agree that the whole 'rails' thing is an absolute nightmare. I've observed it from the outside and found it way too difficult to comprehend, but living the FS100 life, one really does have to get into it because we're talking 'modular' here.

For example, my pet hate is batteries. Every system wants its own special battery. My EVF wants to use Canons, and that means a separate set of batteries and chargers, but it really DOESN'T because my Canon T2i/550 has it's OWN set of batteries and a little charger. I've spent too long setting alarms to wake me in my dingy hotel room to switch batteries on the charger, or have critical charges jinxed by over-zealous housekeeping staff.

So, like many here, I'm finally at the point where I want one big 'Go Forth & Multiply' battery at one end, and everything else at the other end to suck from it. It takes time to work out which bit works, which bit doesn't, it takes nouse to work out what won't work (e.g. it is worth paying extra for a V-Lock baseplate that does 5x the same feed rather than one that does one little one, one bigger one and so on), and this is the biggest advert for why we are right here, right now.

You can go buy a rails system in one big mega package, but as far as I can work out, it doesn't necessarily work out that way for the best.

And if you DON'T go the modular route, you'll have to put up with something that doesn't quite fit your needs. I never needed a 422 recorder until recently. I found out the hard way that the FS100 chimney viewfinder was pants and now love the Zacuto EVF when outdoors. My matte box was an absolute heap of junk until it slipped onto a decent rails system...

The best kit is ... the kit you actually use, and what I use isn't what you should use. What Sam Morgan Moore uses isn't what I use. What Frank Glencairn needs would drive me nuts.

*That* is why we need to visit the parts bin. :-)

+1

My question is: why do I have to "visit the parts bin", buy hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of rig in addition to the camera, and figure out how to piece it together myself? I'm no dummy, but it has been a real challenge for me to figure out "rails", shoulder pads, offset adapters, EVFs, and all of the other stuff one needs to make a DSLR or palmcorder into a shoulder mount.

The answer is, use the right tool.

The FS series (and also DSLRs) where never made as shoulder camcorders. So why should they work that way, right out of the box?

If you want to use them as such, you have to modify them. That´s what the whole industry did since donkeys years. They use the 35mm cameras on sticks, dollys cranes andwhatnot. In the few cases they have to go shoulder, they add grips and some sort of shoulder mount/pad. Why should the FS100/700 be any different.

On the other hand, no ENG team would use a regular 35mm film camera to get the news, why should they, it`s not made for the job.

As Matt said, you try to turn a van into a bike - if you want a bike, why don't you get a bike in the first place?

Respectfully, Frank, it's because no one has manufactured the first bike yet. :-)

Love your work, by the way - and grateful for the pioneering work you have done on behalf of the community.

Bill

We mainly use the F3 on sticks, crane or dolly, and envisage using the FS700 the same way. I'm not so fussed about handheld for this sort of camera, but if I see a suitable cost-effective shoulder-mounting system, I will definitely have a serious look at it. I can see many guys here will be using the 700 as an A-camera, but we wil be using it as a super slomo platform instead of hiring a Phantom or Weisscam for shoots where we don't need 250fps and above.

I think the modular aspect of the FS camera is not a weakness, but a real strength. You can strip everything off, mount a small prime and shoot with a really compact package, hold it against your torso like a medium format camera and your set. Even with the lame-o stock top handle and grip its still easy to go handheld, you just don't shoot on the shoulder. Its so light you can put it on a Glidecam without a vest and its really easy to kit out for any configuration. I go run-and-gun on my Manfrotto video monopod and its a thing of beauty.

To me the FS addresses a lot of the most common complaints DSLR shooters have trying to rig a stills camera form factor into a cinema camera - while producing a better image. I'm still trying to sort out the optimal shoulder setup for my camera - and it is a hassle, but once I find the right configuration I'll be able to seamlessly go from handheld, to shoulder, to monopod, to tripod, to slider, to glidecam in just a few seconds because everything has Manfrotto plates.

Everyone is different, but a camera like the HMC40 is more limiting IMHO, its on the shoulder or on the sticks. In order to do slider stuff or anything steadicam oriented, it would require a far more expensive kit than just outfitting the FS with a simple rod - baseplate - shoulder pad - handgrip setup for shoulder use. Then you're stuck with just one lens, I'm never going back to a fixed lens camera - there's so much great glass out there, a single lens is just so limiting. YMMV...

Thank you Mr Joy - eloquently put!

BTW, lame-o top handle and screen at top does enable camera to be held upside down 'by the scruff of its neck' for overhead shots...

The answer is, use the right tool.

The FS series (and also DSLRs) where never made as shoulder camcorders. So why should they work that way, right out of the box?

Frank, my complaint is that the camera doesn't really suit any shooting style without modification. The hand grip location suggests that it is designed as a palmcorder but it is virtually impossible to use for any length of time in that way because of the weight, balance and layout. On a tripod or dolly, the viewfinder arrangement is very limiting as you need to be behind the camera but vertical movement is limited. It doesn't really tilt below the body and the top handle restricts tilting the evf upwards when attached. The EVF also wobbles from side to side when you put your eye against it and can't be locked off (the lock only stops vertical movement).

If you add an external EVF, you are sacrificing important functions such as expanded focus (at least I couldn't get it to function on the video outputs). You then also have to deal with cable managment and if required, extra batteries. Yes, this can all be done but it makes the operator's life harder, not easier.

If you add a shoulder rig, it is hard to obtain good balance, proper positioning of controls and retain a fast turnaround between handheld and mounted shooting.

I was also not a fan of the Canon C300's design but I can at least understand what they were trying to do and for certain styles of shooting it is a sound ergonomic design. What I am trying to highlight with the FS700 are objective design flaws rather than subjective design choices. My hope is that if we raise such issues with manufacturers, they will avoid them on future designs. Of course, many people will happily accessorise the FS700 and work around the issues but I can't see a solution that would work for me so will have to wait.

I would pay several times the cost of an FS700 for what I want but it doesn't exist yet. Put an F3 in a compact shoulder mount design and I'd be happy. Add in the FS700's frame rates and XDCAM HD & Prores on board and I'd be first in the queue. All of these features exist in current low cost cameras and recorders and could be combined if there was the will to do so.

I don't think calling a camera 'cinema style' should be an excuse for a brick with buttons.
Film cameras of that size use to fit to the body.

The top mounted viewfinder just drives me insane - you start shooting everything from below eye level when you're hand held.
So I haven't bought one, other people will and be happy with it. I'm hoping someone will bring out a similar unit that feels like a camera.

Dudes, if you don't like the Lego-brick FS700, there's still the Panny AF101/102, there's the C300, there's the Black Magic Camera, heck there's even the Digital Bolex, Red One and Scarlet.

Regarding the BMC and Red One, they too are 'modular' - and IMHO the BMC could actually steal the 'Ergonomic Disaster Area' accolade from the FS700. I shot with an FS100 for almost a year, went back to EX1s on a couple of intense jobs, and considering the gestalt experiences, really want to get back to the FS100.

But, to business...

The market for the FS700 reaches pretty far and wide, economies of scale make this 'brick' cost effective for the consumer and profitable for the manufacturer. An F3 style camera in a shoulder mount form with the correct balance to cope with much heavier, bigger glass up front will have a much more limited audience which will raise the price dramatically.

In other words, Mike - what you want is called an Arri Alexa. :-)



Oh, and another thing - Aaton XTR almost same price as an Alexa. 400' of molten cow hooves dipped in chemistry wrapped in aluminium weigh a lot more than an SxS card and counterbalance your $30k Angenieux up front. Don't get me wrong - I'm so sad I have framed PRINTS of Aatons in my office, I think they're so beautiful. But to use another analogy so weak it's almost a fortnight, we're wanting something that costs one up from a family car to be specced like a track-day racer? FS700 for most of us is 1) Affordable, 2) Available, 3) Good Enough.

In other words, Mike - what you want is called an Arri Alexa. :-).

Haha, yes beautiful cameras however too high end for me to own.

I think there is currently a gap in the market for a S35 shoulder mount camera in the £15k ($20k) range. That is what an F3 costs by the time you add the required bells and whistles. A shoulder mount casing doesn't require any expensive R&D and companies like Sony already have designs that could be used. I'm now talking higher end than the FS700 so I digress.

Regarding the BMC and Red One, they too are 'modular' - and IMHO the BMC could actually steal the 'Ergonomic Disaster Area' accolade from the FS700...

True! Don't get me started on the BMC! :)

I would pay several times the cost of an FS700 for what I want but it doesn't exist yet. Put an F3 in a compact shoulder mount design and I'd be happy. Add in the FS700's frame rates and XDCAM HD & Prores on board and I'd be first in the queue. All of these features exist in current low cost cameras and recorders and could be combined if there was the will to do so.

Mike...I couldn't agree more. I would part with 20K in a New York Second if a true shoulder mounted S35 sensor camera body (with forward orientated EVF) suddenly became available. It would not be that difficult to engineer an Alexa style camera in that price range. Sony et al may perceive a lack of demand from the future of their market base...viz, shooters who have never even used a 'real' camera and therefore do not perceive any advantage in that kind of design.

Shoulder cameras are not as flexible and have much smaller markets, fewer people buying means higher price. Just build out the FS700 into a shoulder cam if you want that.

There is a great shoulder camera, its called Alexa. If you want prosumer prices you need form factors that work for the prosumer market.

Personally I've been happy with the FS100 form factor, I found very comfortable ways to hold it for handheld and then I can also hold it out around me and at my hip which is a great flexibility to have for getting new angles quickly. I shot a performance the other day where there was no space but i was able to reach my camera into all kinds of places whereas a shouldercam would have been stuck with one shot at one height and wouldve knocked people over if I moved too much.

"Warning" treads like that really crack me up.

Then why respond???

Shoulder cameras are not as flexible and have much smaller markets, fewer people buying means higher price. Just build out the FS700 into a shoulder cam if you want that.

There is a great shoulder camera, its called Alexa. If you want prosumer prices you need form factors that work for the prosumer market.

Noah - I think the reason is not cost- Sony have taken their consumer cameras before and whacked them in a prosumer ENG body and sold it for as little as $1200 (Sony DCR-SD1000) (thats about $500 more than the corrresponding palmcorder) - Panasonic have done it as well. More to the point - why would they? The FS700 is targeted at a different market - maybe that will change but it hasn't yet. Regardless of the ergonomics, the FS700 is unique .. and having sold so many units of the FS100 why would Sony suddenly change the design and cannibalise their ENG line of cameras? They'd lose market share in their target market and lose sales of higher end cameras. And it would have substantially delayed the release. There may even be an ENG model in the pipeline pitched at the sort of price bracket that Mike wants but I think it would be at least 12 months away. Those mid range PMW's will be in need of refresh around then..

So I can understand the frustration that Mike (OP) feels (the top mounted viewfinder has to go) - I just can't understand why he ordered one in the first place - because all those negatives are spelt out in a bunch of different reviews. You buy in spite of those things and adapt. To get as far as ordering one and not even taking it out of the shop and trying it in the field...is puzzling.

We've all heard of buyer's remorse - I hope Mike doesn't end up with buyer's envy...

LOL I encurage everyone, who is unhappy with the 700 to shoot with a real 35mm film camera and ISO400 film for a week. After that you sure gonna love everything on the FS700.

To get as far as ordering one and not even taking it out of the shop and trying it in the field...is puzzling.


John, please re-read what I wrote at the start of the thread. My dealer held the unit for me without commitment so that I could try it for myself. Once I'd had done that, I cancelled the reservation. As I say in my second post, I hope people will try before they buy and not commit to an order without testing the camera for themselves. It was one of the very first units in the UK so it was not possibility to handle a production model prior to that.

The online tests I had read seemed to focus very much on the (impressive) technical aspects rather than the (less impressive) ergonomics.

There may even be an ENG model in the pipeline pitched at the sort of price bracket that Mike wants but I think it would be at least 12 months away. Those mid range PMW's will be in need of refresh around then.

Hope so. Apparently the manufacturers do not realize how strong the demand would be for such a camera. I know many DP's who would jump at the chance to buy a large sensor camera housed in a true ENG body (in that sub 20K price range)...especially doc shooters and people who have used Arri SR3's, XD cams, etc. Hell, Arri should seize the opportunity and make a lower tiered version of the Alexa and mop the floor with Red, Sony, Canon et al. I would be there in a second.

Furthermore, I don't think anyone would go to these lengths...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_xYMkl-Jw6Fc/S6-FcrVF6LI/AAAAAAAAAI4/lor_ONTGpcU/s1600/Beck+Hyper+35+sideview.jpg

...without a real demand for a large sensor / ENG ergonomic :)

Let me start by saying that I don't think the FS700's ergonomics are good. However, after spending last weekend doing a mixed tripod/handheld, run and gun shoot I have found it to be quite useable even without any extra add-ons. Yes the hand grip is a way off to one side, so the camera will want to sag to the left. But then I never hand hold a camera with just one hand because I get better stability holding it with both hands. Interestingly I found that having my hands wider apart made the camera more stable and less prone to roll. My biggest gripe is the way the viewfinder swivels when you place any pressure on the monocular. On a tripod the viewfinder tilts down just enough so that I can shoot at more or less eye height, it's not ideal but it's not terrible. For high shots I simply used the camera upside down. While the kit lens isn't one I'm fond of, I did find that it performed really rather well in run and gun. I made good use of the one push autofocus and iris just to get a quick exposure and focus starting point. For some of the slow mo walking shots of pilots walking unto the camera I even used the face tracking AF, which did a better job of pulling focus than me! Is it perfect, no it is not, but I did find the overall package quite effective for run and gun compared to my F3 which did surprise me. Like many my primary reason for the purchase is the Super Slow Mo, but I actually found the kit to be closest thing to an EX1 for R&G that I have come across so far.

Like Matt I'm working on a rig for mine. I'm trying to develop a shoulder mount that incorporates a shoulder pad, Sony VCT quick release mounts front and rear 15mm rails and a viewfinder bracket. I hate using noga arms for viewfinders as these always sag and then you get sloppy horizontals. With the right rig I think the FS700 will become my go to camera for R&G. The F3 will still be the camera of choice where quality is paramount, but the FS700 IQ is remarkably close to the F3.

Don't forget if you do want a 20x zoom on the FS700 you can always use the MTF B4 to E mount adapter kit to stick a traditional 2/3" ENG zoom on it. If anyone wants to know what the quality of the adapter is take a look at the Duran Duran "A Diamond in the Mind" BluRay or youtube clips. The head shots of the lead singer were shot using one of the adapters on an F3 with a 44x Fujinon lens about 200ft from the stage. Duran Duran - Planet Earth Live (A Diamond In The Mind) ~ 1080p HD - YouTube

Building an ENG style camera body with and S35 imager for that price range isn't the biggest issue. Making a complete package in that price range will be and issue for sure. How much would you be willing to pay for a fully usable kit?

Lets say that camera exists today and consider the potential costs.

Camera body (based on mid level 2/3" ENG cameras, under $20k isn't likely) - $27k
Servo S35 lens such as the upcoming Fujinon 19-90 T2.9 Zoom Lens - $40k
HD viewfinder - $8k

Add the bits such as batteries and other misc stuff to round it out and you will be sitting at a solid $85k.

So with a camera kit in this price range the market is going to be narrow. It won't appeal to the filmmakers that have embraced the smaller and or modular style cameras of late. Not to mention the S35 cameras have better performance in many areas over 1/2 or 2/3" imager gear. That could lead to erosion of other established product lines. It will have a market but will it have one that is sustainable and one that doesn't cause issues with established ENG equipment lines?

I don't see a huge up side here for the vendors. At least not the conventional vendors.

Building an ENG style camera body with and S35 imager for that price range isn't the biggest issue. Making a complete package in that price range will be and issue for sure. How much would you be willing to pay for a fully usable kit?

Lets say that camera exists today and consider the potential costs.

Camera body (based on mid level 2/3" ENG cameras, under $20k isn't likely) - $27k
Servo S35 lens such as the upcoming Fujinon 19-90 T2.9 Zoom Lens - $40k
HD viewfinder - $8k

Add the bits such as batteries and other misc stuff to round it out and you will be sitting at a solid $85k.

Well, the lens / accessory argument is a bit of a straw man, since everyone has to buy a set of usable lenses, batteries, etc. no matter what camera they buy. I was referring to a body and viewfinder for under 20K. And at the risk of just pitting one speculation against the other, I would offer the example of what Panasonic was able to do with the HPX500…i.e. engineer an inexpensive ENG body around an existing sensor and memory technology for under 12K (for the body) and another 2K (for a decent SD viewfinder).

I don’t think it’s such a stretch to suggest that a manufacturer like Sony could build a decent ENG body around their existing Exmor sensor to retail for around 15K, with another 5K for a good HD EVF. Plus, with an ENG form factor as a starting point, you are automatically saving thousands on the economic juggernaut of overpriced 3rd party accessories that are needed just to get these palmcorders, still cameras and plastic bricks to the point of being usable in a real-world ENG scenario.


So with a camera kit in this price range the market is going to be narrow. It won't appeal to the filmmakers that have embraced the smaller and or modular style cameras of late.

Why they have embraced such a difficult form factor is a question worth analyzing, I think. And it's inevitable that some will come to realize the advantages of a better ergonomic. The very fact that Fujinon is making a lens like the Cabrio is evidence that a large sensor ENG configuration is part of that future...with much cheaper versions becoming available on the horizon I bet.

Nearly all the shooters I know lament the ergonomic limitations of their 5D’s, FS100’s and the like. But we have no choice, because producers are demanding the look of these cameras more and more, and then the job of the DP becomes twice as difficult because of the non-professional form factor. It doesn’t have to be that way…or does it?


Not to mention the S35 cameras have better performance in many areas over 1/2 or 2/3" imager gear. That could lead to erosion of other established product lines. It will have a market but will it have one that is sustainable and one that doesn't cause issues with established ENG equipment lines?

How so? I don’t think the HPX500 eroded Panasonic’s higher end offerings at all. In fact, I think that camera actually became a stepping stone to the higher end P2 gear for many shooters.

.

And at the risk of just pitting one speculation against the other, I would offer the example of what Panasonic was able to do with the HPX500…i.e. engineer an inexpensive ENG body around an existing sensor and memory technology for under 12K (for the body) and another 2K (for a decent SD viewfinder).
Quite so - and the HPX500 isn't alone - the HPX300 from Panasonic? The PMW320 from Sony? And what about the 700 series from JVC? Maybe the latter are a better comparison as they are more comparable size/weight etc to the FS700 - but generally accepted to have far better ergonomics.
I don’t think it’s such a stretch to suggest that a manufacturer like Sony could build a decent ENG body around their existing Exmor sensor .
It's not. The PMW320 is effectively an EX innards in a decent shouldermount form factor - for not that much more than an EX3, relatively. Why couldn't the same be done for the FS700 innards?

The PMW320 is effectively an EX innards in a decent shouldermount form factor - for not that much more than an EX3, relatively. Why couldn't the same be done for the FS700 innards?

I hope they do that! I think the 320 also has an improved DSP over the EX3 which the FS700 would also benefit from if it could provide a 10 bit output. Sony have already used that camera body design for 3 very successful cameras - PMW 320, 350 and 500.

L
Like Matt I'm working on a rig for mine. I'm trying to develop a shoulder mount that incorporates a shoulder pad, Sony VCT quick release mounts front and rear 15mm rails

That already exists - it's the Tilta rig.
I tried almost everything from (realtive) cheap Indian stuff to Zacuto and I'm most happy with my Tilta setup.

Frank

Well, the lens / accessory argument is a bit of a straw man, since everyone has to buy a set of usable lenses, batteries, etc. no matter what camera they buy. I was referring to a body and viewfinder for under 20K. And at the risk of just pitting one speculation against the other, I would offer the example of what Panasonic was able to do with the HPX500…i.e. engineer an inexpensive ENG body around an existing sensor and memory technology for under 12K (for the body) and another 2K (for a decent SD viewfinder).

I don’t think it’s such a stretch to suggest that a manufacturer like Sony could build a decent ENG body around their existing Exmor sensor to retail for around 15K, with another 5K for a good HD EVF. Plus, with an ENG form factor as a starting point, you are automatically saving thousands on the economic juggernaut of overpriced 3rd party accessories that are needed just to get these palmcorders, still cameras and plastic bricks to the point of being usable in a real-world ENG scenario.




Why they have embraced such a difficult form factor is a question worth analyzing, I think. And it's inevitable that some will come to realize the advantages of a better ergonomic. The very fact that Fujinon is making a lens like the Cabrio is evidence that a large sensor ENG configuration is part of that future...with much cheaper versions becoming available on the horizon I bet.

Nearly all the shooters I know lament the ergonomic limitations of their 5D’s, FS100’s and the like. But we have no choice, because producers are demanding the look of these cameras more and more, and then the job of the DP becomes twice as difficult because of the non-professional form factor. It doesn’t have to be that way…or does it?




How so? I don’t think the HPX500 eroded Panasonic’s higher end offerings at all. In fact, I think that camera actually became a stepping stone to the higher end P2 gear for many shooters.

.

I had a good talk with someone inside Sony today and based on that conversation the probability of a large imager ENG style camera below $25k (body only) from Sony is near zero. They acknowledged the request has been heard but responded that a S35 imager ENG camera wasn't practical. Especially under $20-25k.

I don't think my case is a straw mans argument. I am not misrepresenting the costs for what it will take to have a usable product at all. If that product is brought to market it will not be in the prosumer price range.

You must evaluate the total cost of ownership. To disregard that info is naive. Total cost must include everything needed to make a functioning system and not just the camera body. Since a S35 camera will not be able to use existing ENG lenses without expensive adapters or you have to purchase the right PL lens for the job you can't ignore those costs.

It is possible to make a PL zoom lens for less than $40k. The idea that a S35 coverage ENG style zoom lens matching the quality/performance of a good 2/3" lens will be similar in price is unreasonable. I would not expect to find anything for less than $20-30k any time soon. Right now you can count on one hand how many options you have irregardless of price and you won't even need all your fingers to do it. At this time there is nothing applying downward pressure on price other than wishful thinking.

ENG is not a commodity market. If it were I would have a more positive opinion on the possibility of a product in sub $20k price range. That isn't the reality of it so I don't see it happening.

I've seen the Tilta Frank. It's about the best I've seen but it mounts the camera very high above the shoulder pad. The shoulder mount is OK, but I don't need or want a cage surrounding the camera, I just want a simple low profile shoulder mount with 15mm rods out the front and back and a bracket for an EVF.

The cage is optional Alister, you can only get the baseplate with the build in shoulder mount and rod mounts. And yeah, it's not exactly "low profile" - but you have to maintain a certain space between lens and rods, so there is not THAT much room for options anyway.

I know the shoulder mount is available on it's own, but it's ridiculously over engineered and I didn't find the camera particularly stable on it due to the sliding camera mounting plate and small mounting surface area. Not sure who designs half this stuff but it doesn't appear to be camera operators. LW15 to optical axis is only 85mm. The FS700 is 55mm from the lens axis to the base, so the shoulder mount only needs to be 45mm tall.

Where is it possible to buy the Tilta? Looks interesting to me. To be used with an FS100 both handheld and tripod.