...you know the rez for HDV is better and will mop the floor with the DVX100a.

Okay, just so we're clear about that. Seems like many reviewers prefer to side-step that fact, which is relevant to any such equipment comparisons.

The problem is, there is no delivery method for HDV unless you're going straight to HDTV broadcast or to the web (DivX, WMV or QT-H264). You can't burn an HD DVD on any device so the HDV must be downsampled to SD in order to deliver a DVD.

In case you didn't already know, you can burn HD in compressed formats like the ones you mentioned on standard red-laser DVDs, and play those on several currently shipping players. Starting this month you'll even be able to distribute full-quality HDV that way using the JVC HD DVD player, which retails for $399. This isn't a particularly elegant solution, but it is functional, affordable and available today.

The HD revolution is here and it's time to start planning for that. Any review or comparison of HDV cameras which downplays HD image quality is missing the mark.

In case you didn't already know, you can burn HD in compressed formats like the ones you mentioned on standard red-laser DVDs, and play those on several currently shipping players. Starting this month you'll even be able to distribute full-quality HDV that way using the JVC HD DVD player, which retails for $399. This isn't a particularly elegant solution, but it is functional, affordable and available today.

So true Kevin, there are some solutions for DivX and others right now. You'd have to agree that none of them are readily available at K-mart or Wal-Mart or similar stores, but I agree that HD is here. I'd be willing to bet HD-DVD wins out because it is the path of least resistance to the general public and that leaves the ball in Toshiba's court to get a player out to K-mart, Sears and Wal-mart that will play regular SD-DVD and HD-DVD.

Actually I would like to see 720p30 upconverted to 720p60 using motion interpolation technology. Also HD video can get a jump start if video stores start renting out HD decks for a nominal cost.

I'd be willing to bet HD-DVD wins out because it is the path of least resistance to the general public and that leaves the ball in Toshiba's court to get a player out to K-mart, Sears and Wal-mart that will play regular SD-DVD and HD-DVD.

I'm not betting on any particular HD delivery option just yet, but my gut sense is that Sony will have the upper hand in the long run. Among other things, note that a single-layer 25GB Sony blu-ray disc will hold almost two hours of full-quality HDV, compared to a little over an hour on a 15 GB Toshiba disc. My biggest concern is that consumers will resist both blue-laser formats because of the conflict between them, in which case it's not clear exactly how to respond to that.

As far as getting current HD players is concerned, anyone with access to the internet can easily order one and have it delivered. I'd just tell people to do that if it weren't for the imminent introduction of the blue-laser options.

I have watched Shrek and Attack of the Clones in HD on a regular DVD disc that is recorded with WM9. Looked great. We just need playes that will use WM9 and we could use current DVD's.

Hey Ken, was that an official release?

I'd be willing to bet HD-DVD wins out because it is the path of least resistance to the general public and that leaves the ball in Toshiba's court to get a player out to K-mart, Sears and Wal-mart that will play regular SD-DVD and HD-DVD.

I'll take that bet.
BD players are also backward compatible, BTW

I'll take that bet.
BD players are also backward compatible, BTW


I had read that a couple of weeks ago. The backwards compatability is the key. If that's the case then the race to market is the question. Is this in fact "the case"?

I had read that a couple of weeks ago. The backwards compatability is the key. If that's the case then the race to market is the question. Is this in fact "the case"?

At the risk of taking this thread further OT, yes, the BD group has announced backwards compatibility, and Sony has said that the Playstation 3 will have BD and DVD playback capability.
If it comes down to a race, BD will be there first, but that doesn't mean they'll win, although I believe they will.
Soup to nuts on the broadcast side, they own the majority of the content on the delivery side, and it's a long range format, with now over 100GB storage on the disc.

At the risk of taking this thread further OT, yes, the BD group has announced backwards compatibility, and Sony has said that the Playstation 3 will have BD and DVD playback capability.
If it comes down to a race, BD will be there first, but that doesn't mean they'll win, although I believe they will.
Soup to nuts on the broadcast side, they own the majority of the content on the delivery side, and it's a long range format, with now over 100GB storage on the disc.

I realize on the broadcast side there are differences from the consumer side. In this case consumer is king (as you know) because of the sheer number of households worldwide. People who already own DVD's will not buy a player that will not play their existing (expensive) movies. Sony has always been a maverick as far as formats which have fallen away. Beta, Digibeta, etc..

You'd have to agree that HD-DVD has the path of least resistance manufacturer wise and consumer wise. Where was the announcement from Blu-ray that the format was backwards compatible? I only read it on a forum but haven't seen the 'official' word of it?

Actualy walmart does sell HDTV receivers for around 200 bucks so that means that they are commited to the concept of people watching real HD content. Walmart also sells Sanyo televisions with HD receivers built in. walmart also sells high definition DVD players in the form of computers that you can hook up to your HDTV.

You'd have to agree that HD-DVD has the path of least resistance manufacturer wise and consumer wise. Where was the announcement from Blu-ray that the format was backwards compatible? I only read it on a forum but haven't seen the 'official' word of it?

I don't know that I'd agree to that. It's the path of least resistance on the manufacturer side, yes. Consumer side? I believe HD-DVD is the path of greatest resistance at this time.

Blu-Ray will be out first, based on HD-DVD's recent announcement of deliberate delay.
Blu-Ray has the largest selection of big name films that consumers want/will want
Blu-Ray is more interactive capable
Blu-Ray stores far, far more. Ridiculously more
Blu-Ray is futuristic, HD-DVD is a band-aid
Blu-Ray is already announced as part of gaming and gaming consoles. That alone will be nearly as large as the DVD aspect.
Blu-Ray has more forward looking support.

HD-DVD is a good opp, but they didn't get out soon enough nor offer enough option. This is likely a big part of their recently announced delay, trying to find better studio/content support. Only by stubbing their toe badly, will Blu-Ray lose the edge, IMO. Remember, Blu-Ray is substantially more than just Sony.

As always in the wars of format, the victor shall be decided by the all-knowing judge..... The Porn Industry.

As always in the wars of format, the victor shall be decided by the all-knowing judge..... The Porn Industry.Now that's funny :-)



@Douglas Spotted Eagle-Had you seen the laundry list of manufacturers that are backing each format? There are major studios on both sides of the issue.

Blu-Ray:
- Apple Computer
- Dell
- Hewlett Packard
- Hitachi
- LG Electronics
- Mitsubishi Electric
- Panasonic (Matsushita Electric)
- Pioneer Corporation
- Royal Philips Electronics
- Samsung Electronics
- Sharp Corporation
- Sony Corporation
- TDK Corporation
- Thomson
- Twentieth Century Fox
- Walt Disney Pictures

When looking at HD-DVD, the names that stick out are:
- Acer
- Canon
- Fuji
- Hitachi/Maxell
- Imation Corp
- InterVideo, inc
- Kenwood Corporation (huh?)
- Mitsui
- NEC
- Nero
- Paramount Home Entertainment
- Ricoh Company LTD
- Ritek Corporation
- Sanyo
- Sonic Solutions
- Teac
- Toshiba (of course)
- Ulead Systems
- Universal Pictures
- Warner Home Video Inc.

Now watch holographic disk come into the picture next year ;-)

we'll see....

Had you seen the laundry list of manufacturers that are backing each format? There are major studios on both sides of the issue.


And remember that Sony bought MGM/UA last year and also owns Columbia.
This back catalogue is huge, and contains many classics that videofiles can't wait to watch in HD at home.

Just think of the implications of the James Bond franchise alone.
Not to mention that 20th Century Fox distributes the Star Wars movies.

I just wish Paramount was going to be in bed with the eventual winner so that I don't have to wait a decade to get the Indiana Jones movies in HD.

Don't forget HD-VHS. This format could end up being the poor mans Blu-Ray. 50 high definition movies have already been released in this format. If you get one with the built in ATSC high definition tuner this box will never be obsolete as it will have the capability to recieve and record high definition broadcasts. Most Blu-Ray will only be able to play and not record. Again high definition players should be available for rental if you want to jumpstart public acceptance.

Now that's funny :-)



@Douglas Spotted Eagle-Had you seen the laundry list of manufacturers that are backing each format? There are major studios on both sides of the issue.

....
Well aware of the list, well aware that you (or someone else) shorted the BD part of the list significantly, and well aware of many activities in that part of the industry that NDA prevents me from saying much about.
However....were industry support on the CONTENT side so great, why is Toshiba delaying the launch of HD-DVD so that they can "examine what opportunities are for HD-DVD and motion picture studios?"
Nero for example (Ahead Software) is on both lists. Why? Because their H.264 codec is great for both. Apple is on both lists as well, even though your list doesn't show either of them on the other format list.

I don't believe, and this is entirely opinion/conjecture, that consumers will be dumb enough to buy into HD-DVD as it sits. As Tim aptly mentions, a large percentage of the music and video catalogs are in Sony. Additionally, BD is the ultimate (thus far) available storage opp. I'll bet that we have compressions for 150GB by the end of this year or early next, with seek times of 70ms. HD-DVD can't begin to compete.
But the bottom line really is, IMO, content and accessibility. With Blu-Ray on PlayStation and set top, and with major motion pictures initially only being offered in Blu-Ray, and with a longer life, more "extras" etc all being part of BD, it's not too difficult to see what is coming down the pipe. Just wait for January of 2006...

Actually the future is not Blu-Ray but rather the Holographic Versatile Disc HVD. Even if the Blu-Ray has a storage capacity of of 150 Gigabytes the HVD can store up to 4000 gigabytes of information which is 25 times as much information as Blu-Ray can hold. Also HVD can stream at 1000 megabits per secound which is 50 times faster than the HDV requirement. For the future the choice is clear HVD will win out over Blu-Ray and already has major backing from the corporations.

I've been assuming the much-anticipated Blu-Ray drive in the XBox 360 would be the tipping point for it versus HD-DVD in the public mind.

But it now seems the early units will be shipping with merely DVD. Which I imagine will create some angst among prospective early adopters.

Well aware of the list, well aware that you (or someone else) shorted the BD part of the list significantly, and well aware of many activities in that part of the industry that NDA prevents me from saying much about.
However....were industry support on the CONTENT side so great, why is Toshiba delaying the launch of HD-DVD so that they can "examine what opportunities are for HD-DVD and motion picture studios?"
Nero for example (Ahead Software) is on both lists. Why? Because their H.264 codec is great for both. Apple is on both lists as well, even though your list doesn't show either of them on the other format list.

I don't believe, and this is entirely opinion/conjecture, that consumers will be dumb enough to buy into HD-DVD as it sits. As Tim aptly mentions, a large percentage of the music and video catalogs are in Sony. Additionally, BD is the ultimate (thus far) available storage opp. I'll bet that we have compressions for 150GB by the end of this year or early next, with seek times of 70ms. HD-DVD can't begin to compete.
But the bottom line really is, IMO, content and accessibility. With Blu-Ray on PlayStation and set top, and with major motion pictures initially only being offered in Blu-Ray, and with a longer life, more "extras" etc all being part of BD, it's not too difficult to see what is coming down the pipe. Just wait for January of 2006...

Copy/Pasted that list and I know there are others out there that belong on each list. Consumers will buy whatever is marketed in a slick way. I'm sure you're well aware of market hype that pushes a product to success even though a better solution may already be available. To me it really doesn't matter personally. Professionally it does because a delivery format must be in place to utilize the HDV and DVCProHD and other codecs that are becoming readily available. On a side note, all the stuff produced here get's put to BetaSP or DVCPro50 as it is now. Not many broadcasters can even accept an m2t as it is now.

what are your thoughts?

Copy/Pasted that list and I know there are others out there that belong on each list. Consumers will buy whatever is marketed in a slick way. I'm sure you're well aware of market hype that pushes a product to success even though a better solution may already be available. To me it really doesn't matter personally. Professionally it does because a delivery format must be in place to utilize the HDV and DVCProHD and other codecs that are becoming readily available. On a side note, all the stuff produced here get's put to BetaSP or DVCPro50 as it is now. Not many broadcasters can even accept an m2t as it is now.

what are your thoughts?

I doubt you'll ever see broadcasters accept m2t streams. Not sure where that question is coming from. HD is delivered on HDCAM, Mediadrive for an HD Media server, etc. If they did accept HDV, and I'm sure there will be some that eventually do, as several stations are shooting HDV now, then it'll be an HDV deck that outputs HD/SDI, and feeds a server unit or HDCAM deck, I'd imagine. About that same time, BD is available on the higher end, and so it's likely going to be another alternative there, too.
With XDCAM in place, and with XDCAM HD in less than a year, BD is likely going to be very, very common in the broadcast side of things. However, broadcast is the least of distribution worries. It's delivery to the consumer that really determines the failure or success of the format. What is superior doesn't matter. Just remember Beta v VHS [sorry, hit save changes while replying to another post]
Sony screwed up BIG on the Beta case, you can bet they larn't their lesson there. Or not. BD will suffice for both SD and HD in a broadcast, replication house, consumer's game system, DVD player, and camera, plus data storate, etc. Tommy brings up HVD, and it may well become a big thing, but not for a long, long while. BD took 7 years just to get announced, and when it WAS announced, they already had technology in place for manufacturing. I kinda thing HVD might be a little faster, but not much. It's also not a stable format for writing to in a deck, if I'm informed correctly. It's pretty finicky for the writing side. But it sure looks awesome.

I doubt you'll ever see broadcasters accept m2t streams. Not sure where that question is coming from. HD is delivered on HDCAM, Mediadrive for an HD Media server, etc. If they did accept HDV, and I'm sure there will be some that eventually do, as several stations are shooting HDV now, then it'll be an HDV deck that outputs HD/SDI, and feeds a server unit or HDCAM deck, I'd imagine. About that same time, BD is available on the higher end, and so it's likely going to be another alternative there, too.
With XDCAM in place, and with XDCAM HD in less than a year, BD is likely going to be very, very common in the broadcast side of things. However, broadcast is the least of distribution worries. It's delivery to the consumer that really determines the failure or success of the format. What is superior doesn't matter. Just remember Beta v VHS [sorry, hit save changes while replying to another post]
Sony screwed up BIG on the Beta case, you can bet they larn't their lesson there. Or not. BD will suffice for both SD and HD in a broadcast, replication house, consumer's game system, DVD player, and camera, plus data storate, etc. Tommy brings up HVD, and it may well become a big thing, but not for a long, long while. BD took 7 years just to get announced, and when it WAS announced, they already had technology in place for manufacturing. I kinda thing HVD might be a little faster, but not much. It's also not a stable format for writing to in a deck, if I'm informed correctly. It's pretty finicky for the writing side. But it sure looks awesome.

Sorry OT and out of context: Our Liquid edit stations will injest/capture and utilize the HDV (and XDCam and P2/MXF, etc...) on the timeline across the board for Blue, ChromeHD and Liquid Edition Broadcast (v6.x).

Neither Blu-Ray or HD-DVD look good compaired to the holographic that was mentioned up the thread. I read about it a couple of years ago and though it was some magazines fantasy but I guess it's the real deal and it's being developed. These are confusing times (format wise) and it would be hard to make a decision based on any one thing because there are several factors at play.

we'll see....