Hi guys. Gotta write and run (goin' shootin' today)...

I received my first HD100 yesterday, as well as the mini35 - another HD100 and the deck are coming next week.

So far I'm very impressed with both units.

My main question (as we all start getting these and playing with them), is what everyone's opinion is on the low light sensitivity.

I was playing around last night shooting some things in normal house lighting (not to bright, but not too dark either) and the images seemed quite dark. That was with the mini35 with a 2.8 lens on the front (and the mini eats a stop or a stop.5). I then popped the standard Fuji lens on, and it didn't seem to bring it up much more.

There's only so much experimentation you can do in a day, but I'm used to the JVC DV500 & DV550's, and I have been able to get good pictures out of the PD150 with 3-6db gain.

I'll be in a setting later tonight that I can experiment more - it just seemed like it was non-sensically dark last night. Walked around today into dark rooms and it seemed decent or as expected.

As long as I don't have to grain it up massively with gain or flood people with Chimera light it will be a great little camera. Canopus just proclaimed compatability with it yesterday, so we'll see what kind of settings they'll be having. I would think by NAB '04, everyone will have the various settings addressed on this little guy.

Looking forward to talking to you all very much in the near future.

Thanks,
Shawn Alyasiri
www.renaissancevideo.com

I should have clarified - I also made sure the ND switch wasn't on, tried 0,3,6 db gain, had the iris wide open, etc. I'll probably try stretching the blacks a little - we'll see what the footage looks like from tonight.

All I can say was it just seemed abnormally dark (like an ND switch was on), and that I was 2-3 stops under what I would have expected. I had an XL1 way back, and I thought it was terrible in low light - so I got a little concerned.

Any other observations/tips would be great.

Thanks again,

Shawn

What wattage were the bulbs and what was your distance from the light source?

Was initially testing with just regular household ambient light. Then I stuck an NRG varilight on the cam with a chimera diffuser. I was cranking up from 20-80-100 watts. Really bright on the subject, but not too bright in the camera.

I went walking around today and it seems like plenty of light. It just seemed like I had an ND filter on it - but I didn't.

I'll use it in a darker scenario later tonight, and I'll get a better idea of what it's able to do. I know these little 1/3" guys strain to get the light sometimes - I figure I'll get a sweet spot in darker places with 3-9 db gain, and some mobile light. I'll see what pops out and if any additional grain becomes too noisy, etc.

I just remember posts about the Z1 saying that it wasn't that great in low light (maybe I'm wrong). That surprised me, considering the action I get out of the PD150. I was thinking the same after using my DV500/DV550's for years (but then those are bigger lenses, etc).

In reading the literature on the fujinon lens, it seems pretty fast - I thought between f/1.4 & f/1.8 depending on where you're at in the zoom.

I think this is going to be a killer camera. Just wanted to see what others were finding in darker/mobile scenarios where the light can't be controlled 100%. I figure we may have to tweak it just a touch, and add a little more light than what we're used to - but then again, it's been less than 24hours, and I could be compressing something in a setting, etc.

Thanks.

As we already discussed on some other thread here, HD cameras will be always slower because of the density of their chips. Hence the PD150 and other SD cameras perform better in low light than Z1 or HD100 (or F900 for that matter...)

What shutter speed were you trying?

Shutter was off. I was trying it in 30p mode.

Any recommended shutter speeds for 30p? Looks like 1/30 opens it up quite a bit - not sure if it looks strobey or not though.

Long day - looking forward to looking at it more over the next number of weeks, and hearing everyone's tips, trials and triumphs.

It looks like a beautiful machine...

For low low light I'd use 30P/30S or 24P/24S.

Thanks - will do and will test more. This is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. 1/30 definitely brightens things up. Not an absolute cure - but it's definitely on the right track.

Some of my footage tonight had that split screen anomoly that someone spoke about earlier. I'm too tired right now, but I'll try to figure out what the settings and environment was and report back.

Thanks again everyone. Looking forward to future solutions and field wizardry.

Cool cam.

For low low light I'd use 30P/30S or 24P/24S.

The only problem with shutter speeds below 1/48 is that it starts to look streaky like video. 1/24 would be an impossible exposure time to achieve on a real film camera in 24fps. Most film cameras can't open their shutter beyond 180 degrees, and you should treat video the same way if you want the true film look.

This is my big problem with the few scenes shot on HD in "Collateral." The HD scenes are 'streaky' because both of the old-school DPs (the first one quit) were so concerned about exposure that they used a 1/24th shutter instead of just exploring the low-level information in the "digital negative."
The HD scenes in the taxi really stick out against the rest of the film shot on 35mm. Considering how bright the taxi interiors were, I don't think the streakiness was worth the extra stop. They should have gone with +3 or +6db gain instead on the Thompson Viper or Sony F900/950 and it would have matched better.


Anyway, if you want the HD100 to perform well in very low light, try setting up a special low-light gamma setting:

Load in the "Cinelike HD24P" preset to start with.

Go into camera process and switch black to "stretch3"
On the next page switch the knee to manual, and then set it to 80%.

Go into advanced process and adjust the gamma level to "min."

It might be a good idea to adjust the colour gain to +2 to compensate for the desaturation this setting may create.

Now save this new setting and name it "low-light"

This setting will create the widest "latitude" but a flat image. That's not a problem because you can crush your blacks and adjust gamma to the desired contrast level in post-production. This setting will give you the most information possible in your "digital negative" to be able to colour correct later.

This gamma curve should give you an ASA400 equivalent in 0db. Try +3db and see if you like the results. I prefer grain over "streaks."

Tim

The only problem with shutter speeds below 1/48 is that it starts to look streaky like video. 1/24 would be an impossible exposure time to achieve on a real film camera in 24fps. Most film cameras can't open their shutter beyond 180 degrees, and you should treat video the same way if you want the true film look.

This is my big problem with the few scenes shot on HD in "Collateral." The HD scenes are 'streaky' because both of the old-school DPs (the first one quit) were so concerned about exposure that they used a 1/24th shutter instead of just exploring the low-level information in the "digital negative."
The HD scenes in the taxi really stick out against the rest of the film shot on 35mm. Considering how bright the taxi interiors were, I don't think the streakiness was worth the extra stop. They should have gone with +3 or +6db gain instead on the Thompson Viper or Sony F900/950 and it would have matched better.


Anyway, if you want the HD100 to perform well in very low light, try setting up a special low-light gamma setting:

Load in the "Cinelike HD24P" preset to start with.

Go into camera process and switch black to "stretch3"
On the next page switch the knee to manual, and then set it to 80%.

Go into advanced process and adjust the gamma level to "min."

It might be a good idea to adjust the colour gain to +2 to compensate for the desaturation this setting may create.

Now save this new setting and name it "low-light"

This setting will create the widest "latitude" but a flat image. That's not a problem because you can crush your blacks and adjust gamma to the desired contrast level in post-production. This setting will give you the most information possible in your "digital negative" to be able to colour correct later.

This gamma curve should give you an ASA400 equivalent in 0db. Try +3db and see if you like the results. I prefer grain over "streaks."

Tim

Tim, looks like you've been experimenting more! Also, you can pull off 30P/30S if the talent or object does not move across the screen (x axis). If the talent or object moves into the scene (z axis) then you can get away with very slow shutter speeds (probably not below 30 without effect).

Anyway, I'm wishing I had one to check out but I'm sure the effects are the same as other cameras I've used. You can get away with alot just by proper forethought.

Most film cameras can't open their shutter beyond 180 degrees, and you should treat video the same way if you want the true film look.


How is it I agree with Tim so much?

One of my biggest beefs with a lot of episodics shot on HD is that they go for 1/24th shutter way too often. It's not something physically possible on a film camera, so it's not something I personally care to see start being of the "new visual style" HD is bringing.

Besides that, it's always a dead giveaway for me that it was shot on video, and then after that I'm start looking for crispy highlights, then it's all over!

Hi Shawn,
Don't wanna state the obvious but did you check the view finder brightness dial? I came unstuck once this way. The dial is easily bumped- came home with a bunch of over exposed pics, all because i trusted the vf.
Just a thought.

I wish bro... but no - I'm actually running the screen and the viewfinder a little hot, at least according to bars.

I drug it along to a wedding reception last night. Had a PD150 with a Varilite on it, running it at 6db. Nice image, as what I expect with subjects 10-15 feet away. Caught a couple shots with the HD100 at the same time - was extremely low by comparison, and not much color. I also saw that half-screen anomally after getting home - perhaps I have a bum unit, but this is my first HDV cam (altogether) too.

I did some testing today with the standard Fuji 16, and with the mini35, using a prime 50 f/1.4, zoom 24-70 f/2.8 & a fisheye 2.8 (Canon EF lenses), outside. Footage looks nice, and I had to use the first ND Filter, or really back off the back iris on the adaptor. I did not play with the shutter.

BTW - all of my tests last night were with the shutter off - which looks to be the the same as shutter 1/60 (in my 30p mode). In hindsight, I wish I had tried a 1/30th shutter. If you go down to 1/15 or 1/7.5 it lets plenty in, but gets predicably strobey.

I figure it will take a couple of sessions to find the sweet spots. However, I wouldn't have been able to sell the footage from last night if I tried. The stuff today cooperated just fine.

Pretty amazing tool. I'm a little spooked after seeing that 1/2 screen thing - we'll see.

Thanks for all of the replies. I'll look forward to future observations as everyone gets theirs and takes them everywhere.

Best regards,
Shawn

How is it I agree with Tim so much?
Because Tim is the bomb. Back in the early days of DVXUser he was one of the more frequent contributors, and his posts were always well-written, spot-on, and spoken from experience, level-headed and valuable. I'm glad to see he's back posting more on these forums!

Because Tim is the bomb. Back in the early days of DVXUser he was one of the more frequent contributors, and his posts were always well-written, spot-on, and spoken from experience, level-headed and valuable. I'm glad to see he's back posting more on these forums!

Thanks for the compliment Barry.
Yeah those were the days! Back when my first son was born and I stayed up late everynight waiting for him to wake up and try to climb out of his crib. What better time to write into the newsgroups?
Since my second son was born, the forums have fallen lower on the priority list and now I get as much sleep as possible.

I just finished a couple big shows, and I'm on a short hiatus for the next few weeks so I'll try to spew as much information as I can collect on the HD100 before I start shooting my next few projects in October.

I should probably catch up on my accounting too!

Thought I'd shoot a quick update.

I shot some additional footage today and tonight. I placed a varilight on the cam and ran the light at approx 20w, 50w and 100w, with the shutter at 1/60 & 1/30 and with 0, 3 & 6db gain . The footage looked much better tonight, and everything picked up at 1/30. Still lower light, but not what I was initially running into. I also boosted the color gain a bit to 3 or 4.

The footage seemed night and day compared to yesterday and last night. I do expect you're going to have to tweak it a bit to get your images in low light, but if you anticipate it and have a decent light and a solid power brick I think you're still in business. I had a similar test last night though, and it just seemed like I wasn't getting the same action as tonight. 1/30th definitely helped though.

Unfortunately I did see some of the half-screen issue again in the footage. It was not as pronounced, but it's a vertical line, dead in the middle, and the right hand footage seems to have a little more of a magenta haze. I had to look - but I saw it there. Perhaps it's a combination of me being new to the sensitivity, and possibly having a bum unit. Hope not - cause I really do like this camera and would miss it if it was away. I have another one that's on the way, so I'll compare soon enough. Maybe it's just there on dark images with gain (?).

BTW, the footage with the mini35 looks great. I goofed with some canon lenses today in a very ambient outdoor setting. Very nice.

I'll bet again that this is going to be a solid platform once everything is tweaked out. Looking forward to the word on the big brother JVC coming out next year as well.

Thought I'd shoot a quick update.

I shot some additional footage today and tonight. I placed a varilight on the cam and ran the light at approx 20w, 50w and 100w, with the shutter at 1/60 & 1/30 and with 0, 3 & 6db gain . The footage looked much better tonight, and everything picked up at 1/30. Still lower light, but not what I was initially running into. I also boosted the color gain a bit to 3 or 4.

The footage seemed night and day compared to yesterday and last night. I do expect you're going to have to tweak it a bit to get your images in low light, but if you anticipate it and have a decent light and a solid power brick I think you're still in business. I had a similar test last night though, and it just seemed like I wasn't getting the same action as tonight. 1/30th definitely helped though.

Unfortunately I did see some of the half-screen issue again in the footage. It was not as pronounced, but it's a vertical line, dead in the middle, and the right hand footage seems to have a little more of a magenta haze. I had to look - but I saw it there. Perhaps it's a combination of me being new to the sensitivity, and possibly having a bum unit. Hope not - cause I really do like this camera and would miss it if it was away. I have another one that's on the way, so I'll compare soon enough. Maybe it's just there on dark images with gain (?).

BTW, the footage with the mini35 looks great. I goofed with some canon lenses today in a very ambient outdoor setting. Very nice.

I'll bet again that this is going to be a solid platform once everything is tweaked out. Looking forward to the word on the big brother JVC coming out next year as well.

Very good. As I mention above, you can get away with slower shutter as long as your pushing in or pulling out on the z axis. Motion across the frame (x axis) may look studdery and big camera moves will show unsmooth motion.

What was the gain level when you were getting the split screen effect?

What canon lens' were you checking out?

In the latest tests, I didn't use more than 6db of gain - so I had to hunt for the 'split', but I still saw it there. It was less subtle in the footage from the evening before, and I believe I saw it at 3 or 6db and then it seemed like it went away at 12. It was a quick fly-by test - but it was the first time I saw the anomally. I have not seen it in any footage that is well illuminated/outside, etc.

As far as the Canons, I have a number of EF/SLR lenses: 16-35 2.8, 24-70 2.8, 70-200 2.8, prime 50 1.4, 85 1.2, 85 1.8, 135 2.0, a fisheye 2.8, and various others. I thought they did quite well with the mini, and it was convenient not to have to run out and buy a zeiss set - at least not immediately. I may still hunt for one, but I dropped a good sum last week, so it's not manditory money spent yet. I appreciate that they offer the Canon/Nikkor mounts - very considerate and functional of them.

I had heard that the mini would bring the light requirement up. You could confirm that with Charles Pappert who ran a test with that very setup. Just for grins, under the same conditions does the stock lens handle low light better at the same settings you've been using or did you bypass the stock lens altogether?

All of my tests that I mentioned were with the stock lens. Yes, the mini35 is going to eat another stop or stop.5, so it would be really dark in a low light scenario. Come to think of it - I don't think I've tried the mini35 with 1/30th shutter - going to have to try that.

I will be taking this little guy around to a number of places, and shooting in various settings (with the stock lens). I think I've got a basic workaround so far for low light: 1/30th shutter, some gain, and some color bump - all with a decent light. My only concern was the split screen issue, which I had to hunt for, but I still found traces of. I may return this particular one, or certainly compare it to the next one coming.

Either way - nice rig, certainly in design. The more people that get this thing, the more solutions there will be. I think it's going to be a hit and a heck of a value once everything is all ironed out (and that's coming from a guy that might have a bum unit).

There's only so much experimentation you can do in a day, but I'm used to the JVC DV500 & DV550's, and I have been able to get good pictures out of the PD150 with 3-6db gain.[/url]

Were you shooting in DV or HDV mode? I noticed that the HD100 is much more light sensible in SD than in HD.