Hi,

I think I have my mind set on a new Sony HD camcorder. However, for the price of a new NX5, for a few hundred more I can purchase a used Sony EX1 (not EX1R). Just wondering if the the EX1 is a better purchase for a few hundred more, or the newer NX5 better at $3500ish.

Also, I have the opportunity to purchase a used Canon XL-H1 for the same price as well if that would be a better bargin, although it being HDV tape it has very few hours.

Apologize for the questions, however my budget increased a little bit so I can justify a little bit better camera and looking for the most bang for the buck. I don't necessarily need all the options that each one provides, just the best of the basics i guess.

Thanks
Mark

I'd go for either the used Sony EX1 or the Canon XF100 (if size matters). My personal choice ...

Best value for your money is EX1, no second thought, i love that camera, and was hoping for EX5 from NAB 2012, but looks like large sensors with no AF and no powered zoom are more popular these days,
even though I own a few large sensor cameras and EX1 is over 4 years old, it still has a beautiful image, way better than any fixed lens camcorder.

I also would say to get the EX1. I've had an NX5 since they they came out. It has been a fine camera for what I do even though I really I wanted an EX1. However, at the time I was buying, used EX1 cams were scarce and beyond the budget in any event. A new one was out of the question for me.

The offers sound very good. However, I would be cautious about prices as low as those that were quoted.

An NX5 (sans FMU) usually sells for around $3900 - $4000 ($US) and I thought they were on offer in Canada from reputable sellers for around $4100 ($CAN). It is the somewhat less-capable prosumer version, the AX2000, that sells for around $3500. If the seller is really asking $3500 ($CAN??) for an NX5, I would want to find out if the camera is a return or "reconditioned" unit and find out what comes with it.

I also need to ask, what is a "few hundred" more for a used EX1? Does that mean $400 to $500 more, or does it mean, say, $1500 more? The last time I looked a few weeks ago, the price for used EX1 cams, which were in good condition on offer from reputable sellers, seemed to be around $5300 -- $5400 ($US). So, I would be cautious if the used EX1 is being offered for, say, $4000 or $4500.

Do you know the seller, maybe? Can you verify the condition of the camera?

I've used the NX5 and it still had a feeling of "consumer" to it with how the menus are laid out. The noise, (somewhat lessened by the AVCHD codec) resolution, and size of the sensors on the NX5 don't really help, it's around 960x1080 resolution with tons of interpolated pixels. It's 1/3'' too.

The EX1 however is a 1/2'' full 1920x1080 per sensor camera with the XDCAM EX codec, which in my opinion, is way more robust than AVCHD. It's also less CPU intensive for editing since it's MPEG-2 as opposed to H.264.

Definitely go for the EX1. I currently own a EX1R and what screams at me each time I see my own footage is the 1000+ lines of resolving resolution on these cameras.

I guess the "few hundred" is probably closer to $1000. The average used EX1 on ebay is around $4500. I have been fairly lucky with ebay so far (knock on wood). All of my previous cameras were ebay purchases and had no problems with any of them.

One of the questions i had of the ex1 was with the ex1r replacing it, was the original model worth buying. I guess it still is.

If i had enough i would probably get the EX3, but if I keep reviewing and comparing I may never get a camera at all lol. I've been almost a year trying to decide. Not a easy decision to make for sure.

Thanks for all the help.

Mark, the EX1 is as sure a thing as you can do as long as there's nothing wrong with the item. Depending on what you are upgrading from, you will feel anywhere from pleasantly surprised to estatic. The image, ergonomics and feature set are wonderful when moving up from pretty much any camcorder below it. There are many threads here on DVinfo that discuss the differences with the EX1R version so you can compare. I was similarly bent on getting the NX5U but spent the extra to get the EX1R. I am very glad I did. The XDCAM format and workflow is a pleasure. Also, there's something to be said for buying into a venerable camcorder with a stunning wealth of after market accessories and skilled practitioners.

I have an EX1r and have worked a good bit with the original EX1 as well. Last week I got to work with a NX5.

The NX5 is a nice camera. I much prefer the EX1.

The latest camera I am upgrading from is the Sony Z1U. I still have a PD150 with low hours left that I haven't sold yet. I was thinking about a new NX5U with 128GB SSD as the next camera since I have some extra L-series batteries lying around I could use, but if the original EX1 is a lot better than the NX5U, id rather spend the extra $1000 and get that. The EX1R is definitely out of my budget, but a good used EX1 seems to be priced right.

Thanks
Mark

One of the subtle upgrades you are making in going to the EX1 is moving to a 12v based system. With 12v running the camera, you can use the same batteries to run lights and monitors. The SWIT 8u62 and some other aftermarket batteries have a standard d-tap port so the same battery will run both camera and accessory.

I was in the same position - having sold the Z1 and looking for a replacement. Tape was right out, so it was the NX5 or an EX1. The NX appealed because it used carry-over NPF batteries (I had a lot of them) and the same batteries ran my 160 LED lamp and my 5 inch LCD Lilliput. The NX5 also used the Z1's Lanc controller too.

Oh, but the EX1 gives better pictures, that's for sure. Thing is, for the work I do, the NX5 is perfect. And I could buy new and get Sony's 2 year warranty thrown in. I sometimes pine for the ½" chips better dof control, but the cost difference sure mounts up.

tom.

You will not regret going with an EX1. XDCAM's workflow is much more mature than AVCHD. (Especially in Final Cut)

The thing is, AVCHD brings workflow complications depending on what you edit on. AVCHD may work well on a fast quad core PC with the latest Adobe Creative Suite or Sony Vegas, but will never be readable without transcoding on Final Cut. Not to mention, even if you re-wrap AVCHD into a H.264 MOV, that decreases Final Cut's software stability. This is why everyone transcodes AVCHD into a more stable format for editing in FCP.

Adding to the complexity is LPCM audio with AVCHD. Anything older without LPCM NXCAM support simply won't have audio or would be unreadable.

What's the current editing system you use? If it is Final Cut, I wholeheartedly say XDCAM is your better bet.

My current editing system is a Mac book pro i7 16GB ram using final cut pro 7. As this is mostly for personal use now I could use premiere or something else. I have looked at other avchd cameras such as the Panasonic hmc 80 (hmc 40) before when my budget was lower but as I can afford an ex1 even if used I think that would be the better choice over anything avchd. I have used broadcast 2/3 cameras for a few years with other projects but have always had sony prosumer. The ex1 should be a step closer to the broadcast cameras for a half decent price.

Just wondering about the SxS adapters to sdhc/xc. Are they as reliable or worth using? If so, any adapters and cards work best?

Thanks for all the feedback. The ex1 and even the nx5 are probably overkill for my uses but as this is a hobby and I have some disposable cash I would like to have the best I can afford.

Mark

Just wondering about the SxS adapters to sdhc/xc. Are they as reliable or worth using? If so, any adapters and cards work best?

Mark

That has been discussed in more depth than you can imagine in the XDCAM area of the forum here.

You can see a list of the top conversations on the subject here - http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdcam-ex-cinealta/488634-ex1-sdhc-cards.html#post1596200

Just wondering about the SxS adapters to sdhc/xc. Are they as reliable or worth using? If so, any adapters and cards work best?

i have 1500 hrs on my EX1 and about 1000 hrs were shot on 16/32Gb SDHC cards with SxS adapters,
not a single error, knock on the wood :)

@Mark: The way I look at it is this. If you are serious about not wanting to risk loss of data, you avoid buying cheap media. When you start looking at better media, you start climbing in price for better reliability. The camera you choose determines how far up that climb you can go. The EX1 lets you use the most reliable media out there, so at least for anything critical, you have the option to do that whereas other cameras other than perhaps P2, you don't. You will have to pay for it. No magic there.

That said, I have a top Hoodman Raw that I thoroughly tested but use only an emergency backup. YMMV

Just wondering about the SxS adapters to sdhc/xc. Are they as reliable or worth using? If so, any adapters and cards work best?
I'm increasingly getting the impression that it's far less hardware reliability that has given problems with any solid state system, but all sorts of other issues.

Sometimes it's difficult to tie down, but one potential sort of corruption of cards seems to be cards being ejected whilst still being written to, and this can apply in the computer as well as in camera. There have also been reports of it happening to such as P2 cards, not just SDHC - NO system should be considered 100% reliable.

But by far the biggest single source of error seems to be finger trouble. I've now heard many accounts (some first hand) of mistakes being made in the offload, and typically a card being reformatted by mistake. That's more likely to happen if it's neccessary to download in the field in less than ideal conditions, and even if SxS or P2 cards may be a little more reliable in hardware terms, then IMO if the use of SDHC means not having to field download it's makes for a more reliable overall workflow.

It's also worth mentioning again that with SDHC/adaptor you can shoot on SxS in camera for absolute max reliability, then dub to SDHC in camera as cheap backup or as a copy for production.

Real point about such as the EX is that it gives the choice and flexibility. I'll also second the comments about it being a more user friendly codec than AVC-HD for a not too much bigger file size, and better quality as well.

The EX1 gives full 1920x1080. Go to a 1/3" CMOS camera and something has to compromise - with Sony (NX5) it's resolution (1 megapixel chips, v 2 of the EX - the design does keep the symmetry and expect about 1440x810). With Panasonic they keep the resolution but that inevitably means the sensitivity is compromised.

The ex1 and even the nx5 are probably overkill for my uses but as this is a hobby and I have some disposable cash I would like to have the best I can afford.

It's half hobby, half trying to learn ENG for me as I got the EX1R Open Box and it still cost me around $6000. And then came the Nanoflash... another $2000 on top of that.

I'm using a Sony SDHC adapter and I haven't encountered an issue yet. Though it limits throughput to around 12MB/s. Try looking into the MxR Extreme, since that has better throughput than the Sony one.

Since you did mention you're working on a Macbook Pro, I see no reason to add complexity to your workflow with AVCHD. XDCAM allows you to natively edit with no transcoding, and that saves on disk space requirements. Not to mention that the file management software for the NX5 I believe only exists on Windows. (unless I am corrected)

Has anyone tried using the SDHC method with slow-motion? I've been recording 60 frames per second in 720p mode (ie 1280/25) onto SxS cards recently, and obviously it uses more bandwidth than regular footage. Slow-mo is really important to my project. Sony's official documents say that the SDHC option and the hard disk option are not guaranteed to deal with slow-mo.

Richard

It has not been a problem with the ATP branded memory cards that I have been using.

If you check out the many existing threads on the subject anything you could ask is answered in great detail there.

I recorded 40 seconds of 60p actual/24p record S&Q fine, but it did take a while to write the remaining video to the card after I stopped.

Class 10 cards and the MxR Extreme might be better for this kind of thing, since there is that throughput limit on the Sony MEAD adapters.

I just recorded 40 seconds of 60p footage (1280 x 720 @ 60p/25p) and at the end it took maybe 1 second to finish writing the data to the 32 gig SxS-1 card. So the SxS card is demonstrably faster, but you don't actually lose any functionality by using SDHC. *shrug*

I wish the camera could do 1080i @ 60 fps, or even 1080p @ 60fps, or higher frame rates.

Richard

I wish the camera could do 1080i @ 60 fps, or even 1080p @ 60fps, or higher frame rates.

Richard

You and many of the rest of us EX1 owners.

A new codec based on AVC needs to be developed for broadcast quality 1080p60. Panasonic's almost vaporware AVC-Ultra mentions 2K recording at 24p, but no official mention of 1080p60.

And I don't believe Sony has a new codec coming soon. AVCHD 2.0 simply is not enough for 1080p60 at 28mbps.

Closest thing could be the Gemini 4:4:4 + the FS700 with DNxHD. (if the Gemini has enough encode power to do that)

Why do we even need codecs? Why can't we just edit raw files? A modern good high-def codec contains the same amount of data as a raw stream from standard definition days gone by. SxS cards are rated at 800 megabits/second and hold hours of footage, while the highest quality normal speed recording uses 35 megabits/second. There's plenty of wiggle room there.

Richard

It's how much uncompressed can be recorded and card life span. SRMemory is 1TB of solid state and that is used for 2K to 4K (possibly uncompressed) recording.

a 200+mbps I-frame AVC codec would be better for 1080p60, it's about whether a company other than Panasonic implementing it.

Hi everyone,

Just an update to this thread.

I just received my used Sony PMW-EX1. From just using it a short time, I know it was the better decision. It feels very well built and picture is outstanding. Totally blown away. Some of the ergonomics I don't like that some of them were updated in the EX1R but that would have been another $2000+. I can deal with them for now.

The only thing now is I have to look at a new tripod and shoulder support for it. It is noticeably heavier than my PD-150s and Z1U. I have the 701 HDV Manfrotto head and I had a cheap shoulder brace. Any particular head worth getting for this camera? Also anyone recommend a shoulder brace for it as well. I would like something I could leave on the camera even when its on the tripod. One thing i hated about my cheaper brace was that you needed to use its own plate (which was cheap plastic) every time you wanted to put it on your shoulder.

Thanks again
Mark

Mark, one nice thing about buying into a venerable camera is that there are so many OEM accessories. Westside AV is a DV Sponsor that specializes in EX camera shoulder mounts and custom built accessories. Do a search here on DVInfo on "EX1 shoulder" and you'll find many threads by people who've been down the same road you are now on.

I use a 701 HDV on my slider and travel tripod. It's adequate for lock down shots but the EX1 is a big camera for it. Something like a Sachtler FSB-4 is about the smallest for a functional tripod. There are others. There's nothing special about the EX1 that you have to have a special feature in a tripod. You can go by the load as you would normally choosing a tripod. I prefer side mount ones. After you experience one, you may as well.

Some highly recommended accessories in my book are:
Any of the various replacement bottom plates
Vortex DVD
DMAccessories replacement shotgun mount
Swit 8u62 or other battery with D-tap
Dolgin Dual battery charger

Hi! In my own opinion I prefer EX1 because it has a great features such as:

Compatible with ExpressCard3/4 interface slot which is common on modern Windows PCs and Macs

Highly reliable: can resist shocks (up to 1500 G) and vibrations (up to 15 G)

Uses PCI Express interface and achieves an extremely high "read" speed of 800 Mb/s*

Large storage capacity: SBP-8 (8 GB) and SBP-16 (16 GB) memory cards are available. One SBP-8 (8 GB) memory card is supplied with the PMW-EX1

Low power consumption

Can record up to 70 minutes of HD video and audio (using one 16-GB memory card)

Compact size: approx. 75 × 34 × 5 mm (excluding the projecting parts) - half the size of the older PC Card standard