I love the idea of this camera, and I love what this idea is going to do the industry in general. I've been in the industry for a while now and when I started, shooting indy films was not affordable given that if you wanted that cinema look you had to get a 35mm camera and a few rolls of film. Your other option was a DVCAM and even that was 6K or more. It's a good time to be film maker, an even better time for the guys and gals getting out of film school. This reminds me of the film revolution of the early 1900s, maybe the Golden Age of cinema will make a return.

That being said, I'm stuck on what camera to start off with. I've been doing post for almost a decade now and haven't even thought of shooting a short until now. My original choice was the Nikon D800, but being that the BMDC is the same price and actually produces a very film like image I'm now torn on which direction to go. The DSLR offers full frame functional versatility but less cinema like and more artifacts (moire, aliasing), the BMDC offers very cinema like high dynamic images in RAW format but lacks in functions. I like the internal SSD recorder, but the Nikon can use a Ninja 2...BMDC has no 60fps and no timelapse, DSLR does....flexible functionality or pretty 2.5k high dynamic image....tough.

I wouldn't put too much reliance on the camera, the key parts lie elsewhere. Believe me, the camera is the easy bit.

Though the camera isn't everything, it sets limits and defines which lenses you need. And that defines how much light you need. And weight, rolling shutter, and image stabilization define the grip gear you need. In other words, it's an important choice and one that must be made.

In deciding, it's good to know what one will shoot and what one's preferred style might be. From Tony's post, he certainly wants a big sensor cam for a 35mm look. Then again, as a post guy, he knows the value of RAW for color correction.

I'd recommend figuring out a lens set. On a crop DSLR, the 17-55/2.8 IS is a great place to start. It goes from moderate wide to tele with f/2.8 speed and includes stabilization. Lens choices aren't as straightforward for the BMC. Soon, there will be a Mosaic Engineering anti-aliasing filter for the 7D, so that's a consideration.

The big difference between a DSLR and shooting RAW is that you really want to get your lighting and exposure on the mark with DSLRs - as well as your use of settings such as picture styles. And that's not a bad skill to have. One reads about the advantage of changing the look in post, but I personally find that I have a vision for the look before I ever start, and if I'm serious I do some tests. It's not like I'll shoot a romantic comedy and want to change it to a dark green look any more than I'd do a vampire film in pastels.

But there are limits. If the goal is to really push the colors, the BMC could be the ticket - assuming you can build a good lens set for it.

Any basic starting lens package should coincide with the three basic coverage angles in cinema right? The Long shot, the medium shot, and the close up. So i was thinking three Nikon primes, a wide angle (20mm), a medium angle (50mm) and a long or telephoto (85mm). Of course comes the argument of whether to go zoom or prime. Figuring that the BMC is a 16mm equivalent sensor camera that uses full frame lenses, a zoom would probably be more flexible when dealing with the crop?

A 20mm, 50mm, and 85mm would be a wide/medium/tele on a full frame camera. (I'd highly recommend 24mm or 28mm for a normal wide however for FF.) Going off of sensor widths, the crop factor of the BMC is 2.28 (or 0.44.) That means you'd be looking at something like a 11mm, 22mm, and a 37mm lens kit for the BMC. You could do an f/2.8 zoom kit with the Tamron 11-17 and the Canon 17-55 IS. In fact, that would get you to an equivalent of 125mm, which is a nice closeup length.

If you want faster lenses (and you might if you want shallow DOF), replace the 17-55 with the 24/1.4L and 35/1.4L. Add a fast 50mm for true closeups.

Then again, one might want to look at 16mm or 4/3rds lenses and adapters to see if there are good options there. One nice thing about using 35mm glass is that the smaller sensor will only see the center, sweet spot of the lens. Falloff and corner softness won't be an issue. However, the pixels are smaller, so you'll want sharp glass.

I like the BMCC and seriously thought about pre-ordering one, but I wound up getting a FS100 to replace my 5d2. The FS100 has 11 ISO steps from 500 on up, real XLR inputs, records to ridiculously cheap SD cards and uses plentiful Sony batteries that can give you a full days shooting on just one if you get the NFP-970. You also have lots of frame rate and resolution options and the ability to shoot just 1fps for easy-peasy time lapses. The crop factor is only 1.5, so my 16-50 has a FOV equal to 24-70. The E-mount is easy to adapt pretty much any lens on the planet. The 6 available picture profiles are so customizable its overwhelming, so I cheat and use a few that others have developed. I bought mine used with 3 hours of recording time on it for far less than full retail. I can get 4:2:2 color space with an external recorder, though its only 8-bit. The low light capabilities of the FS100 really sold me on the camera, its just so clean at 6400, I can't imagine the d800 being any better and it completely spanks the 5d2. I love the image from the BMCC, but to kit it out would easily eclipse what I have into my FS100 since you need to run external batteries, SSD's and I still have questions about the quality of audio. Just my two cents...

We pretty much mirror your thinking Chris.
Even as a small shop we have a pretty wide range of week to week creative challenges, but everything we write and produce whether TV spots, docs, promos or web content is narrative with a 35mm style going back to the original P&S mini35.

I'm tired of using different cameras to cover our needs and really hoped that Canon would do something other than the 1D-C to add 60p 1080. I can't justify 30k for a pair of them with the number of limitations they still have.

Both the 1D-C and BM will be great for specific roles, but I think we're in a similar situation to a lot of shops that produce their own work exclusively. Today, 2012, there are finally a few options for cameras that can be on set or location, fully loaded and tethered, and the next week shooting back country from a snowmobile or following doc subjects around the world.

We don't need 4k we need great 1080p recorded in camera for lots of work with the option of better color space for other work. And we need variable frame rates to at least 60p for lots of work.

And that camera needs the full set of functions that DSLRs just don't...including the 1D-C

In this regard, with all things considered, the FS100 just made too much sense. For all the things you mention and more, a pair of these cameras would be too good a deal even at 10k each.
At 5k each it's the best camera concept on the market.
And we keep our 5Ds which creates a wealth of acquisition options when you need them but aside from the Alexa, the FS100 (and FS700) offers the best all in one option for a lot of creative shops.

The thing is there's all types of filming out there. Cinema, documentary, event, ect... For the professional who does a bit of everything, a camera like the AF100 or the FS100 are great. But expensive, both cameras without lens are over 4k and to be able to get the flexibility in lenses you need to get an adapter which are very expensive. But, it's still damn affordable for a pro videographer looking for a do all camera. How about guys who only want to do film projects? Don't need half the stuff thats on those cameras, even with the on board xlr and supplied mic, the built in preamp still doesn't cut it ,so a external recorder will eventually be bought anyway. Handle, grip, zoom toggle, shoulder bad, built in nd filters, view finder, high iso...not really needed for a film shoot. A doc and event shooting hell yeah, definitely needed, but not for film. On a film shoot you do have some time to properly set things up, so all you need is a little box that shoots video. Thats why cameras like the Arri and Red are nothing but paper weights. Cost wise, most film makers, like any artist probably don't make a lot of income from their projects if any, so budget is a real concern. Thats why a camera like the BMC is making big waves with indy film makers, to provide excellent film like image quality for such a low price is exactly what we wanted. Only problem with this camera is the sensor, it's far too limiting. You'll be getting the same look with all your project, which is fine if you only do one type of genre. A DSLR with the full frame and endless lens choices will still give you more freedom to manipulate your shot to how you want. Because seriously for a film maker all you need is a good sensor in a box.

\ For the professional who does a bit of everything, a camera like the AF100 or the FS100 are great. But expensive, both cameras without lens are over 4k and to be able to get the flexibility in lenses you need to get an adapter which are very expensive. But, it's still damn affordable for a pro videographer looking for a do all camera.

It's all about perspective, but for anyone producing professionally for years, these cameras are dirt cheap.
Our Canon XL2 s with mini35s cost about 20k each without lenses. We're not videographers, don't do any events or video, we shoot 35mm film style with extensive lighting even for outdoor action work. There's no real downside or pigeonholing a camera like the FS100.

I'd argue that any film maker needs a lot more than a senor in a box. That film maker needs all of the things on and in an Alexa or Epic or FS100 whether they come rigged or are rigged for the shoot. And many of the controls not in the BM can't be rigged, they're just missing features.

For small shops flexibility is key, so having cameras that can shoot without extensive rigging when necessary or be tethered to a Hyperdeck and large monitor etc. is simply better than one that is simply a box.

It's impossible to know anything until there's a real BMC production model, but seeing the shrinking list of flexibility, crop issues, poor screen, limited frame rates etc. our enthusiasm for the BM for anything other than rigged studio work simply abated.

8 bit codec aside (and it's being lauded by most everyone that's used it) the FS100 is the closest thing to an Alexa or Epic on the market in many essential ways for day to day film production. And having three of them for a fraction of the cost of the others is amazing for any film makers shooting 1080p which almost all of us are...those of us getting paid to do it.

What about a FS700 with all of the good things of a FS100 but with more resolution, better color, less low light banding and built in ND filters? The ideal rig is an F7100/700 and a BM Cinema camera.

I realize everyone's needs are different and the BMCC is certainly an attractive option - especially for indie filmmakers. I dabble in a little of everything so I need a little more versatility than the Blackmagic box offers - especially in the ISO department. By all means its a bargain though, at $3000 with Davinci essentially means you're paying $2000 for a camera that can record raw or prores and getting some killer color software. Like I said - I really looked at preordering one, its just not a good fit for what I do. Nice to have so many high quality options though...

...a camera like the AF100 or the FS100 are great. But expensive, both cameras without lens are over 4k...

True for the FS100, but the AF100's price is dropping steadily. Right now, it is $3425 new at Amazon.

Folks at the $3000-$3500 price point who want a 'large' sensor, interchangeable lens digital cinema camera with built-in headphone audio monitoring now have to decide whether they want the D800, BMC, 5DMkIII or AF100. As someone said earlier in this thread, this is a great time to be a filmmaker - maybe the best time in history.

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution (http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com)

Lots of strange decisions like omitting compressed 60p becuase they could not do it with RAW. Seem to think this is a RAW cam when most people will shoot log compressed. Only three ISO settings, 400, 800, 1600. Only three WB settings. This is a very crippled camera.

Everyone wants RAW and sees only that, ignoring the usability of the camera and the extreme workflow and post production equipment requirements.

I suspect someone told you it was RAW that prevented 60p was wrong. Depending on which chip they chose and DSP power/heat issues -- the system may simply not be able to run faster than 30p.

You do not get "log compressed" from the camera. A non-log gamma curve is applied to the log data obtained from the sensor/DSP. One non-log gamma curve id REC709. The other is a flatter curve.

Likewise, I don't think you get ProRes RGB 12-bit 4444. (I'd love to be wrong.) You get ProRes 10-bit 422 -- HQ I think.

You are IMO so right about the frenzy for RAW. Software for the KineFlow S8 takes 1 minute per frame. Using the CinemaDNG importer for AE or Pr takes lots of time.

With AE you can export ProRes 12-bit RGB 4444 -- which is very nice with FCP X which will auto-create ProRes Proxy in the background during import. (This takes time and works only for OS X users!)

With Pr you really need to render your timeline to something like ProRes Proxy is you are going to playback at full speed. (This takes time and works only for OS X users!)

the guy who told me was Dan May, the official Blackmagic rep demoing the camera.

When asked about the brochure, he corrected it himself at great length. The sensor output is converted to log. But, neither ProRes nor DNxHD outputs are log formats! If they were, they couldn't be used! In most cases, you'll choose will be REC709 so they can be used by all NLEs.

It would be possible to output 10-bit log C, but every NLE would need a log C import plug-in. And, the camera would need a log C LUT. (Yes, you can use CC to try to recover the a signal from log C. But, it's a pain.)

However, there are log C importers for FCP and fcp x so in theory BM could add a third gamma curve to ProRes and DNxHF. So maybe he let slip a secret! Perhaps that's what BM means by a "filmic" gamma curve. That would be a killer feature!

Are there any UNGRADED CinemaDNG samples with audio? Samples covering motion and skin tone? CU and wide shots?

I suspect someone told you it was RAW that prevented 60p was wrong. Depending on which chip they chose and DSP power/heat issues -- the system may simply not be able to run faster than 30p.
I don't think it's the sensor itself, which, if it's the BAE/Fairchild CIS2051, can run up to 100 fps at 2,560 x 2,160 and 200 fps at 1,920 x 1,080. Like the Scarlet and Epic, the BMC may have a maximum overall data rate it can run at (as determined by an number of its components, like the SSD controller). If that's the case, it could conceivably run at a higher frame rate if the per-frame data burden is reduced via a compressed codec like ProRes or (my suggestion) CineForm RAW.

Or, it's our old friend HEAT!

I posted an answer that was partially wrong.

While the ProRes and DNxHD outputs are not log -- as I said. They are pulled from a master log curve from the 12-bit sensor.

Therefore, I think the RAW data is output as log.

My question for BM -- the camera can apply REC709 gamma to an area of the 12-stop log curve. Why not simply deBayer the whole log curve. Now output this at 10-bit log C in PR 422 HQ or DNxHD 422 -- or 12-bit ProRes 4444.

I'll bet Resolve will handle these files and Glue makes importers for log C data.


I've been working with RAW for 2 months. It is a royal pain in the butt! The only things neat are:

1) set the WB -- AFTER THE SHOOT.

2) in AE create, an lazy-S gamma curve or black stretch or expand -- AFTER THE SHOOT.

3) A way to get 12-stops of DR.

When you consider than some RAW software takes a MINUTE PER FRAME to process -- you can see why just getting the 12 stop DR -- FAST -- is all I really need.

And, yes, each scene as usually will need to be CC to 0% to 100%/108%. But, with Media Compose and the new Curves plug-in for FCP X -- that's not going to be a killer job. And it's real-tme unlike RAW1

It's been almost 2 months to the day of the announcement at NAB. We saw the original specs, the original footage, but now it has gone silent. With the release date drawing near, why are we not hearing anything new? I have mine pre-ordered but I need to hear the final specs to feel 100% sure that it meets my needs. I do a very large amount of handheld work, and with my 7D i rely on the IS of the 17-55 lens to smooth out the "microshakes" that DSLRs exhibit when not on a tripod or without IS. I need to know if IS is indeed supported on Canon EF lenses or not. It has not been stated clearly at this point.

Anyone with an insight on any of this?

Marty, the final specs have all been announced. The details are all up there on BMD's website, and it's been reported ad nauseam by BMD reps every time they've been asked these questions - they're going to deliver the specs they announced, and nothing more (at this stage).

So no IS at this stage, no AF at this stage, only 3 ISO settings and the mount will be EF.

I have read through the specs "ad nauseum" myself and see no official reference to "not supporting IS" anywhere in the official literature. I have read speculation, reports from people at BMD events contradicting each other and reports from John Brawley (only one to actual shoot with this camera that we are aware of) saying they might add additional ISO before release.

Regardless, I'm just looking for any new information about the camera and possibly some new footage. With the release drawing near there is a lack of any additional information or reports and that is just a little concerning, especially when other cameras that are due to ship around the same time are getting full reviews on higly respected websites.

Kind of strange; here we are sitting at July 7 with projected camera shipping "towards later part of July" and not a peep about any new info since April. No sample footage since April, no nothing.

it isn't that strange. I'm waiting on several product releases since NAB....

waiting is the new normal.

waiting is the new normal.

Scarlet deja vu... all over again?
(And I'm not much better -- eagerly waiting for the EOS 1DC.)

-- peer

Scarlet deja vu... all over again?
(And I'm not much better -- eagerly waiting for the EOS 1DC.) What about the EOS 1DX? This was announced last November & is still not available.

What about the EOS 1DX? This was announced last November & is still not available.

The 1DX is shipping.

-- peer

The 1DX is shipping.Really? I haven't seen any reviews of a production model & it's only available to pre-order from every Canon dealer that I can find.

Really?

Regular people were getting the 1DX last Tuesday.

-- peer

Some new raw & graded stills from John Brawley here. Looking pretty good:

A little tease | johnbrawley (http://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/2012/07/23/a-little-tease/)

Thanks for that Simon. If this shows what the camera can do, it is very exciting.

That said, I am not sure about anyone else, but here we are with less than a week to go and this is the first taste of anything that I've heard concerning the BMD. Doesn't it seem weird not to have at least
a little bit of marketing by BMD, or an announcement saying that it will be postponed? Something?!

I am sure BMD is working day and night to be ready, but to hear nothing, other than rumors
of 200 being delivered on time - or the other rumor that their vendors also being left in the black as to what the magic design is (not good). I would prefer to be told *well ahead of time*, "Sorry, it will be delayed." It has to do with cred.

And yes, I get it. This cam, with all the features has great *potential*, but if BMD whiffs
on this one, it will only add to their reputation of being - how does one say it delicately,
falling short of what is being promoted - which speaks to other aspects of dealing with them.

I do think that BMD moved the camera world at NAB, and I am thankful, but for me even if they
deliver 200 cameras, though wonderful, just means that something else (the execution of the plan?) is still not in place - and possibly half-baked.

The eagle has landed!

BM asked me, if I want to give it a test ride.

Frank

Wow, with such a big lens and a tripod, all in that small box? :D
You must be one of the first to receive it, can I ask you for what purpose you will be using the camera; weddings, corporate or? The low price is very tempting but the camera seems like a real handfull to operate, I will be looking out for the first real world samples that appear on vimeo or youtube.

I didn't buy it.

Blackmagic was asking me, if want to do a test ride - so they send me one.
The guys who ordered it, still have to wait a week or two.

Are you going to post your findings in this forum?
Edit: I just found and read your initial thoughts of the camera on your wordpress blog: blackmagic takes quite a risk sending you the camera or they want to persuade you it's better then you think :) Will be very interesting to see what you think about it, at least we can expect an honest review.

Yeah, I was quite surprised, that they asked me - but at least that comes with a "non fanboy guaranty" ;-)

I post my findings here and on my blog.
Since I'm brand agnostic, I give it the same fair and objective as possible review as everything else.
I'm really curious how it handles and what I can get out of it.

Frank

First the FS700, now the BM Camera....you get all the new toys to play with!

Please shoot some charts if you have a chance; it would be interesting to get some empirical tests to put alongside the raw test videos that have all ready been released.

Frank,
low light footage , please,
thank you!

Blackmagic Cinema Camera Unboxing - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh_Yk0PEDRE&feature=youtu.be)

The unboxing...

Here is some DNG frames for you guys to play with.

Throw them into Photoshop or AE , hit the "auto" button for starters and have your jaw dropped.

I exposed them on purpose to 100% zebras, just to see what is there.
Its amazing how good the highlights hold up.

Dynamic range: http://www.filedropper.com/dng

Night scene: :Frank Glencairn Blackmagic low light test - Blackmagic Cinema Camera Forum - Forum (http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/1196-frank-glencairn-blackmagic-low-light-test/)

Frank

Much appreciated!

Did a little lowlight shoot-out yesterday

Blackmagic Cinema Camera bs FS100 Lowlight Shoot-Out on Vimeo

It looks to me that you should only shoot in raw to get the most out of this camera, raw looked much better when graded then prores to me. What is the highest ISO the BM can do? Do you also know how much footage one 256GB ssd can hold when you shoot Raw?

The ISO doesn't mater (only when you shoot Prores) cuse it's all just metadata, it looks always the same, no mater what you dial in, you actually always shoot at ISO 800.

Here is some frames, if anyone wants to play with that: http://www.filedropper.com/voodoo

I don't have any experience shooting raw at all but how do you set the exposure when shooting in that format, is it that much different then a with conventional video camera? Is it just a matter of setting an F-stop, focussing and do all the exposure adjustments and color corrections (like setting the right white balance) in post?

Basically yes. You set your zebras to 100 and make sure they just go away. That's it for exposure - recording the most DR as possible. The rest is done in post. Think of shooting still raw but at 24 fps.

Frank,

I've tried the Red Camera, does this BMCC behave similarly as far as exposing it shooting RAW? Do I expose for highlight and pull the shadows in post?


Ted

Yes, it's similar.