I haven't looked at cameras in a long time, so I've been reading as much as I can here to get a feel for this camera. As I've gotten older I've given up on weddings and now am involved with high school and community groups to provide coverage of stage events. Throw in one or two dance recitals as well.

I was wondering if I had two of these cameras ... would they work well for the stage? I currently have a Sony FX1 and Z7, but I want to cut back on the weight and certainly no more tape.

The size is appealing, it's on the FCPX compatible camera list, AND it has XLR inputs, which is a huge bonus since I like to take a feed from the board.

Any feedback would be greatly welcomed.

Scott

Hi Scott,

I have had an XA10 for a month or so, and I'm still coming to grips with it... I used to it record a classical concert for the first time recently. I found image quality and low-light capability satisfactory, but bear in mind the lens does not have a great reach if you are trying to get performer close-ups. I used it with the TL-H58 accessory teleconverter *and* the inbuilt digital 2x teleconverter, and found this worked OK. But this is not convenient if you need to rapidly change back to wide shots.

Hope that helps!

Cheers,
Steven

Great cam for school functions, but as stated it's 10X zoom is limited. Otherwise it's a great camera for your purposes.

Normally I don't go extremely tight for the stage. Still, 10x might not be so great. I'm not sure what the FX is ... probably same as Z7 which is 12x. I rarely use the digital extend function.

I don't know ... at this point in life I really didn't want to go over $2000 per camera. At one point I wouldn't have cared, but then I was young and stupid. Now I'm just old and stupid. :-)

If not this camera ... not sure where to go.

The camera is fairly wide at the wide zoom setting (great for event work like weddings and working in smallish rooms where you are in close). As noted above, the lens is 10x zoom ratio and that means no real close-up shots from the back of the auditorium. A tele-converter and "digital zoom" can work around this subjct to some limits. Digital zoom is OK if the ultimate delivery format is DVD but will give up some resolution if you deliver in HD or Blu-Ray. Tele-converter costs some lens speed.

I've used 2x digital zoom (zoom in the NLE, nto camera) on HD material and it worked acceptably well when authored to DVD.

I think in a two camera setup, one locked down for a full stage view from the back, and a second close to the stage for close-ups they would do well at their price point. The primary thing you would have to practice is the manual management of zoom, focus, and exposure given the physical controls on the camcorder.

If you can try borrow or rent one and give it a test in a venue of interest during a rehearsal.

I use a combination of XA10 and the HFG10 for stage (classical concerts), along with some HFS200's for cut aways. The XA10 and G10 are significantly better (color and low light) than the HFS200's, and with their wider view I very rarely need a wide angle lens attachement like I often did on the HFS200. That said, I agree with earlier posters that at the long end, the zoom leaves me somewhat wanting...can't zoom in as much as I'd like from the back of the theater.

I use the XA10 as my main camera, taking the audio from my good condensor mic's at the stage directly in to the XLR's on the camera, as well as from my preamp to a seperate audio recorder in full uncompressed PCM, but this way I still have EXCELLENT audio right on the camera for backup or easy syncing. Then I use the G10, which has identical video to the XA10 but much cheaper, for a fixed wide shot of the stage. If I had budget, I'd add more G10's as I don't need all the cameras to have the XLR inputs.

In this clip Corigliano- The Red Violin Chaconne - YouTube

The wide stage shot is the G10, the closeup on the soloist is the XA10 (from the back of the auditorium), and all the other angles are HFS200's. Lighting here was "harsh", very bright under the spots, but then really dark at the edges of the group, but this is a good representation of how I use these cameras.

Scott, in re-reading your post, the XA10 seems like it's ideal for you. You really want the XLR inputs, and at this price point this is as good as it gets, I think. Probably the best choice for you, I"m thinking.

I really appreciate all the replies.

Some how I missed the part about the 2x digital extender. ALL my footage ends up on DVD for delivery, so it sounds like that wouldn't be too bad.

In looking at the clip posted ... I would be extremely happy with that. I have two events that I shoot each year where the stage is set up on one end of a basketball court and the sound board and platform for me to shoot are at the other. That is the furthest I ever have to shoot. Everything else is much closer.

The ones in a gym ... one is a video feed for an over-flow crowd at graduation. The second is a university dance contest. Theatre lighting is always tough to say the least ... but the lighting on the fraternity/sorority dance contest is unbelievable ... strobes, deep reds and blues ... people in front blown out and everyone behind them are perfect. I'm better off just sticking the cams in auto mode and letting them run rather than keeping a finger on the iris ring.

XLR ... very important to me, so this is really starting to sound like the direction I want to go.

OK then ... a few other questions if you guys don't mind. B&H is now shutdown for a while (which I respect), but I would like to get these cameras before they open back up. There is a production in two weeks and while it wouldn't be horrible to use what I have been using ... I would really like to get the newer ones before then. Does anyone have experiences with other vendors?

Which microphone would you suggest that I purchase for the cameras?

Battery recommendations?

Memory cards ... do I even need them?

Anything else I might be missing?

Thanks again for all the help!

Scott

but the lighting on the fraternity/sorority dance contest is unbelievable ... strobes, deep reds and blues

CMOS sensor camcorders such as the XA10 can have surprising artifacts with strobe lights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF_9FhAlxi4

If you're on a budget the Wasabi batteries are highly recommended. I personally have used only Canon batteries, but everyone keeps talking about how great these are: Amazon.com: Wasabi Power Battery and Charger Kit for Canon BP-827, VIXIA HF S10, HF S100, HF S11, HF M30, HF M300, HF M31, HF M32, HF S20, HF S200, HF S21, HF20, HF200, HF21, HG20, HG21, HF G10, HF M40, HF M400, HF M41, HF S30, XA10: Camera & Photo

You actually do not "need" a card with the camera, as 64GB will hold hours worth of footage, you'd be set.

I just ordered my second XA10 and I am going to order the Wasabi's because you get two of them and a charger, all at 1/3 of the price of one Canon battery. I dislike generics, but these are so popular they are worth a try.

Scott, I've found the XA10 for $1849 at two places, B&H and J&R Music. It seems every other reputable vendor is charging $1899 or $1999. There are other less reputable vendors charging less, but I'd avoid them as a rule.

Call J&R for the status of the cameras, they are backordered. They had only one camera backordered that wasn't accounted for, and I bought it. Salesman told me there are 15 on backorder total, but when they are arriving he didn't say.

There is a used one at Amazon for $1749 or so, but I prefer to pay an extra $100 for new, so I bought mine from J&R.

Adorama is a great vendor, and they have them in stock but are charging $1999. You could see if they will price match B&H, it would cost nothing to ask.

Caution with the XA10, Scott. You will lack the manual switches you are used to with your current cameras, so be aware you will initially find frustration with your cameras out of the box. That being said, they will work for you just fine, you just have to learn how to use the camera, there is a learning curve.

For another source of the cameras I would give Texas Tape works a call and talk to Scott. I have purchased three cameras from them and received good service and fair prices. (They are also a sponsor)

You don't NEED SD cards, but it is easier just to remove the card versus plugging in the camera and downloading the footage.

I have a couple of those Wasabi batteries Jeff talks about and they work fine.

Caution with the XA10, Scott. You will lack the manual switches you are used to with your current cameras, so be aware you will initially find frustration with your cameras out of the box. That being said, they will work for you just fine, you just have to learn how to use the camera, there is a learning curve.

He is so right and make sure you are OK with the touch screen menu system. I dislike it greatly but the kids seem to think it's fine. (I'm old) I bought a HF 40 which uses the same sensor as the XA 10/G10 and for a second camera you cannot tell the difference in footage. For less money than two XA10's I would buy an HF40 for a second camera and XF100 as the main camera. Have fun and good luck!

Scott,
For memory cards, no you don't "need" any, however I also find it much easier and faster to simply copy the files from SDXC card then from the camera. I used to use the Kingston class 4 32 Gb cards since you can get them for $35 from B&H and go for almost 3 hours at full quality. Recently though I got the Lexar USB 3.0 card reader Lexar Professional USB 3.0 Dual-Slot Reader LRW307URBNA B&H and the REALLY NICE 64Gb Sandisk Class 10 card SanDisk 64GB SDXC Memory Card Extreme Pro SDSDXPA-064G-A75 B&H and I couldn't even believe how much faster I can copy the files, that's all I'll go with moving forward. No difference in the camera or picture quality of course, but wow...now I can go almost 6 hours on a card and the file transfers are so much faster I couldn't believe it.

Definitely get extended batteries. I don't know about the Wasabi's, they sound good, but I still use the Canon BP-827 Canon BP-827 Lithium-Ion Battery Pack (2670mAh) 3185B002 B&H My unmanned cameras need to go over 3 hours untouched, and the 827 will do that with plenty of margin, the factory included battery won't.

I also use the Rode SVM when I have to record directly at the camera, it's not bad. For classical I use a stereo pair of Shure SM81's if I am recording in a venue that allows it. Even when recording from the camera with the Rode, I will often put the mic on a light stand next to me (off camera) to completely eliminate any handling noise, as well as having the mic not move when I am panning the camera (note that I mostly do music).

Regarding your lighting, yes strobes are tough as noted above, I don't think you can do anything about that with any of the CMOS cameras that are out there, but for the colored/changing lighting I think you'd be better off manual WB and lock the exposure, otherwise the camera will be changing all over the place. Here is a sample I did recently with color changing LED lights. I tried it a couple ways, but what worked best was locking the WB on "daylight" (since these were LED), and locking the exposure for a decent overall balance. When I left it on automatice the colors never seemed right, and during the darker lighting the camera was boosting the gain, it just didn't look as good to my eye, at least in this particular setting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vGOrYwXwMo

Again, the wide camera and the panning camera are the G10 and XA10, the side/drummer shots are with HFS200's. If you need multi cameras I still recommend considering supplementing with G10 as you will have absolutely matched video/color etc... and save a bit of money.

The last thing to remember for the zoom, is if you are going to output to DVD, you'll be able to do quite a bit of zooming/cropping in post and still have an excellent DVD image. I've found sometimes it's nice to shoot slightly wider, then do a zoom/pan effect if post, it gives you some flexibility.

All that said...I still want the XF300! Not going to happen though...

Good luck, hope you can find one, or two...

I second Texas Taper Works, reputable seller for sure. I think the issue with prices MIGHT be that Canon lowered the wholesale cost but many vendors might still be selling old stock. Or they might have given some vendors, like B&H and J&R, a discount but not others. I don't know how it works.

One thing I didn't notice till I saw a video review is that I can have the XLR inputs will mount without the microphone mount. I thought it was one unit. This makes great sense since I usually do the same as others ... mount a microphone on a mic stand to get higher for ambient sound and a line in on the second channel. So now a short condenser may or may not be needed.

Regarding manual controls. Most of the time I will lock down the gain and shutter speed and focus prior to the performance. It sounds like I can maybe provide myself with one control (iris) that is easy to get to?

I don't mind spending the money on Canon batteries, but I'll look into generic reviews of the ones mentioned here as well. I just want to get a couple that will go all day (4 hours) if possible. My Sony NP-970s have spoiled me on power.

If it's a matter of speed, maybe the memory cards should be revisited. FAST is good.

Thanks for beating it into my head that I don't really need two of these cameras. I only need one with XLR inputs. There has never been an instance where I've had two cameras hooked into a sound system or used external microphones. In fact, most of my other audio is now captured using digital recorders.

The only thing I might need to pick up for a second camera is a bracket to mount a video light. (I have one wedding coming up this year that I backed off my "no more weddings" policy.) I'm guessing the cameras could use a lighting boost during the reception?

With that said ... I'll take a look at the Canon G10. It sounds like it's very similar to the XA 10.

The other cool thing about this is that I should be able to sell my Sony FX1 and Z7 with batteries and come out ahead.

Thank you.

Correct, you can leave the mic mount off, I've never even installed it on mine since I personally don't mount a shotgun mic on my camera.

If you lock down shutter and gain, it is very easy if you want quick access to the iris control, if you put the camera in "Manual" exposure control for the shooting program, and you can assign the custom button/wheel on the back of the camera for "Manual". With the camera in manual mode, you will see the shutter speed, iris, and gain on the screen, and each time you push the button on the back of the camera it will toggle between the three so you can use the wheel to change whichever one you want to. In your case you would just leave it on iris and adjust it as you see fit. By doing this you'll have an actual hardware control on the camera and not need to go into menus to adjust it on the fly.

The canon batteries will go 4 hours no problem, I would bet closer to 5 or 6, I've just never needed to push them that far.

The XA10 has a full size cold shoe (hooray!) for your accessories, while the G10 and others will require the mini shoe adapter (booo Canon!) for a standard accessory like a light. Pearstone CSA-II Shoe Adapter for Canon Camcorders CSA-II B&H

The Wasabi's are so highly reviewed that I became convinced to try them, and I'm a huge battery snob, because the generic Sony batteries never lived up to my expectations.

The Wasabi's are so highly reviewed that I became convinced to try them, and I'm a huge battery snob, because the generic Sony batteries never lived up to my expectations.

Exactly!!! I tried some Sony generics once and only once. They came highly recommended, but they were complete garbage. I just recently threw away a couple of Sonys that I had purchased 10 years ago. They finally got to the point where they wouldn't take a charge. I need to search the Wasabi's and see what I come up with in terms of reviews. Sounds like they must be doing ok.

I'll take a look at the Canon G10. It sounds like it's very similar to the XA 10.

The HFM400 also uses the same sensor and is cheaper. Moreover, the zoom range on the HFM400, while still only 10x, may be more suitable for stage events. In particular, the range of the HFM400 is like having a 1.5x telephoto adapter on the XA10.

Which microphone would you suggest that I purchase for the cameras?

That depends on your intended uses.

For a camcorder mounted shotgun I find the AT875R works well

For recording stage performance of a concert band I use an AT-825 (single point stereo) on a stand but I believe that it is has been replaced in the product line by the AT8022.

Lots of choices for wireless mics, interview mics, etc.

I think I've got about one more question before I go forward ...

Does anyone here use this in conjunction with FCPX? If so, how long does it take to transfer the files? Is it really fast with the cards as opposed to the drive?

Also ... the B&H site has two different messages. One says that on-line ordering is unavailable until 8:45 tonight. The one above it says that it will begin on-line ordering on Wednesday, April 20th. Confusing.

Scott, nothing will be shipped from b and h until after 4/27 according to the website due to holiday. Ordering will start back up on 4/20, but nothing will be shipped till after 4/27.

This is why it was recommended you look around at other places if you want to get your camera soon. Best of luck!

Scott, I can recommend J&R, at least for fast shipping. They received shipment of cameras today and camera was shipped out same morning, that's great service.

Thanks Jeff ... I ended up going with Markertek since they were in stock. Mine is on the way as well. I probably ended up paying for it, but most of the reputable sites were out of stock and I had no idea when they would have them. If I like it I'm going to get the G10 as a second camera.

Thanks for all the help.

I just got my XA10 yesterday, but haven't had the opportunity to work with it yet. All I can say when I unpacked it was WOW. I almost started laughing because of the size. BUT ... that's what I wanted ... a smaller unit to work with.

One thing I did check ... shut out all the lights in my office with only the monitor on. This thing looks like it would almost shoot in the dark, so with any stage lighting at all (and there will be very difficult moments next week) this should be able to shoot it.

I need to dig in and start working because it's going to be the main camera next Friday.

I just got my XA10 yesterday

That's great news that it arrived in time! It will be interesting to hear your impressions about how the new FCPX handles AVCHD footage.

I've been following this thread closely and had a couple of questions.

What are the main differences between the XA10, the G10, and the HF M400?

My main concern is low-light shooting indoors, eg Churches, receptions, etc. and general picture quality.

I've been using an HV30 & Hv40 with a Rode and a Juiced Link preamp (to plug into sound boards/house systems) and have been looking to upgrade. I had my heart set on the XF100 and XA10 and have really looked into them quite a bit, but the G10 and the HF M400 are new on my radar with this thread's recommendations.

Thanks!
Deborah

PS anxious to hear what Scott has to say after getting a chance to "test drive" his new camera :)

The XA10 has XLR imputs in it's removable handle and the other two take a Canon propriety shoe or an adapter to convert it. The XA10 and G10 have internal memory and HM400 does not but I think the number for the one that does is the HM 40. There is also a new HM500 that should hit the same price point.
IMHO the XF100 is a sweet spot in the Canon lineup and if you can swing the extra cash you would be very happy. Great codec. Coming from the HV20/20/40 lineup the touch screen menus of the XA10/G10 etc may not be a negative for you but I prefer the XF100 set up by a wide margin.

Good luck and have fun!

As a word of caution, despite Scott's report of how well the camera is in low light, I advise readers here to not take the comment that the camera can shoot in the dark too literally.

There are others who are disappointed with the XA10's performance in low light, so I advise those who are looking at this camera to keep you expectations realistic.

I shoot with DSLR sytle cameras and the XA10 does not/cannot compete with the GH2 using a fast lens. This should be commmon sense, but regardless...

The XA10 is somewhat better than the FX1, etc but without the noise. It's comparable to the FX1000, but without the noise in low light. It will handle low light at up to 18db without any discernible noise.

Also, despite the comments that the lesser models (like the G10) offer "identical" footage, there have been other threads where users have stated that in low light there IS a clear difference in noise using the G10 in dimly lit conditions. This is a subject that has been talked to death, so you can find it covered in other threads.

The XA10 does not offer groundbreaking performance in low light conditions, it just offers very good performance for the money. It has been said it is about as good in low light as the EX1, but I don't know if that's really true or not.

I like my XA10, it's a nice camera. I just got my second one. The G10 doesn't have a regular shoe mount, which alone ruined it for me, you need to use a shoe mount adapter just to mount a standard shoe accessory. The XA10 allow you to run a shotgun and light without any adaptations, has dual XLR inputs, and is worth every penny to me.

With each drop in models you lose something, it is true you do get what you pay for. In sufficient lighting, the G10 is a lot of camera for the money as Buba K has demonstrated with his amazing videos, but for me the non-standard shoe mount just kills it for me because of my needs.

Keep in mind, the more different makes/models in your equipment suite, the more things you have to remember how to use, often in a hurry under less than ideal circumstances. There is something to be said for standardization.

Such a good point Don. It makes a huge difference when I'm using same cameras.

There was enough difference in button location between my two Sony's that it sometimes drove me nuts. I would imagine cameras with different menu setups would be even harder. If this XA10 works then I'm pretty sure I'll end up with a G10 just to be safe.

I'm happiest about having a second XA10 because I will now have two sets of matching cameras. I shot last year with 3 different models for 4 and 5 cam shoots, and it was the worst experience of my life. Toss different brands of lenses in the mix, and the fact that three of four cams looked identical but weren't it was tough.

I am actually in the event that is coming up this weekend and unable to record myself. Sooooo ... tonight I set it on full auto as my wife will record the event just for testing. Set to a wide shot of the stage and no other audio other than built in mics. Totally un-manned, the little guy did quite well.

Big disappointment was withe the Wasabi battery. It only lasted about 2 hours or less. This was my first shot with it, so maybe it gets better the second time around.

Scott, just checking, did you charge the Wasabi battery before using it? I'm nervous now, I have two of them for Saturday for my new camera.

Damn, I always swore I would never use generics again, this is why. I would rather spend $$$ and have 4 hours from one battery than to keep switching cheap batteries.

Maybe my luck will be better, I hope so.

Yup ... gave it a full charge. It only got me through the first act. I'm charging the second one to see what happens. I'll need them both to get through the show.

Worth testing any new battery after the first full charge to see what the run time really is. Put the camcorer on a tripod, pick a fixed scene, maybe a clock face, and select the longest record mode (lowest bit rate) and let it roll until done, see how much you get with that battery. ( Nothing wasted because you can erase the footage from the memory card.) Maybe note the purchase date and run time on a label on the battery.

Of course live recording time will be different (often substantially less) due in large par to power wasted while in record pause mode.

Generic batteries often have lesser quality control, and thus are subject to wider variations from the baseline spec.

It seemed everyone was praising these Wasabi's, claiming similar run times. I am a firm believe in you get what you pay for, this just reinforced it further.

What charger was used, and what protocol usde to ensure a full charge. That might make a difference.

What charger was used, and what protocol usde to ensure a full charge. That might make a difference.

I used the charger that came with the batteries and left it on the charger for probably two days since I wasn't using it.

I just charged it again ... this time on the camera. I turned it on and it shows 168 minutes.

I charged the second one overnight, put it on the camera and it shows 172 minutes. This is very disappointing, but at least not a lot of money was invested.

What is the published mahr (or Ahr) rating of the batteries in question?

In looking at the clip posted ... I would be extremely happy with that. I have two events that I shoot each year where the stage is set up on one end of a basketball court and the sound board and platform for me to shoot are at the other. That is the furthest I ever have to shoot. Everything else is much closer.

Ciao Scott,

how about you get a small portable recorder like a Zoom H4-N and plug it into the mixer and you sync later in post. Thats at least how I do it. I use 3 cameras for stage events. My Canon XA10 and my Canon HF10 under the roof in a fixed setup, two angles and two different zoom stages. In addition I use a DSLR (Sony A65) with a Glidetrack slider on a Manfrotto Tripod for closeups and slow mo and so forth. All record in AVCHD.

The perfect sound from the mixer board is used and the sound from the cams only to sync.

Cheers
Andreas

Happily my Wasabi's seem perfectly fine, so I panicked for no reason.

The original time indicator was actually larger than the Canon's, which is freaky. The first battery did not display time remaining till I shut off camera and turned it back on, and thereafter it was fine.

They performed about the same as the Canon's.

I'm a happy camper. I pray I will not have issues with them, but they performed fine Saturday night, that's all I can say.

That's great to hear. I'm going to ease mine in. Hopefully, there's an initial charge or something that sets them. Hey ... I can always hope. ;-)

First of all ... thank you to ALL that contributed to this discussion. Everyone made very valid points about this camera. It can take some amazing footage and I have one event that my wife shot in full auto mode for me and it came out great. However, I tried to use it last night for a high school performance and it's just not practical for me. Luckily I had shot the same performance the night before and last night was just a trial run with the camera. I think I could shoot an entire wedding in auto mode and it would look great, but for the stage ... not so much ... at least for me.

I might be a bit too old to change, but it appears I still need my buttons and dials, so once I can get through a couple of crazy weeks I'll be putting my XA10 up in the classifieds and maybe take a look at something a bit more expensive. You'd think I would have learned that lesson years ago, but the thought of taking such a light weighted camera was very appealing.

Thanks again for taking the time to help.

Scott

I think I could shoot an entire wedding in auto mode and it would look great, but for the stage ... not so much ... at least for me.

Did the problem with the stage shoot involve a spotlight or was it the 10x zoom?

Did the problem with the stage shoot involve a spotlight or was it the 10x zoom?

You're pretty good Eric. The zoom just doesn't cut it. Even knowing I would be going to DVD with it I just couldn't use the 2x under some dark lighting.

I really have nothing bad to say about the camera. This was just a case of me over-estimating my ability to adapt to something new. I'm still struggling with FCPX as well. Luckily for me I still have my other cameras and FCP.

This was a huge learning experience, but I have no regrets. I would have always wondered ... now I know.

Scott

I might be a bit too old to change, but it appears I still need my buttons and dials, so once I can get through a couple of crazy weeks I'll be putting my XA10 up in the classifieds and maybe take a look at something a bit more expensive. You'd think I would have learned that lesson years ago, but the thought of taking such a light weighted camera was very appealing.

Thanks again for taking the time to help.

Scott


Interesting how it turned out for you, Scott. I might be interested when you are ready to sell.

Deborah

The zoom just doesn't cut it.

Have you considered locking down the XA10 for a wide shot and using your Z7 as the main camera? Then you could retire the FX1, still lighten your load and keep the XA10.