Hello everyone,
I have been pulling my footage from my XA10 onto my MacBookPro, using ClipWrap and editing in FCP 6.0.6 (still). Got a new computer (Lion) and need to finally make a decision about which editing software to go with for an upgrade.

I'm just wondering what others' workflows are with the XA10? Any tips on what you have found to be the most efficient systems? Have others been happy with how FCPX works with AVCHD files? Or should I consider going to Premier? I'd appreciate any thoughts on your post-production workflows and what you've found to be most efficient.

Check out this thread, seems X is working for some folks. http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/wedding-event-videography-techniques/506209-anyone-edit-fcp-x.html

From what I've read, FCP X has received very mixed reviews. Some FCP 7 professional users are not happy about it and refer to it as an iMovie on steroids.

I use Edius these days, and like it a lot. I understand that some folks run it under Bootcamp. (But I am not a Mac person.)

FCPX is excellent.

It converts, should you choose so, your files to ProRes upon import.

Interestingly, FCPX came under a storm of criticism a few hours (!) after it had been released. Obviously from LOTS of people who hadn't read the manual, let alone imported anything into it, or even worked with the program for more than a few minutes.

Go figure.

Have others been happy with how FCPX works with AVCHD files?

If you ask for opinions on the most efficient system you will get different answers from different NLE users, I need a fast, stable cutter to do multi-cam and for me Edius fits that bill as it supports up to 16 camera's but it might not be a NLE suitable for you. Maybe someone else does a lot of creative stuff and they need after effects/photoshop for that reason, then Premiere would be the best option as adobe has great interaction between different programs which will save you time. Only adobe products requires specific hardware and a high end system to make the best use of it, especially if you run AE together with premiere and/or Photoshop.
Premiere however does have the best similarities compared to the "older" fcp so you won't have a difficult time to adjust, you only will have to digg a lot deeper into your pockets if you would buy a suite compared to fcpx, but you will get more in return.

Why not install a trial and just see for yourself? That's the only way to see if it works for you.

FCPX is $300, Premiere is $800 (I think!).

FCPX does a 30 day unrestricted trial.... give it a go.

I am having issues with the PF modes of my G10.... FCPX sees it and processes as interlaced, but I believe PP does too. I'm still experimenting!

I don't know if there's a PP trial.

I really like FCPX and find it a lot more intuitive than my last, which was Final Cut Express HD, but I am not a Pro.

Thank you for all of the feedback. I did in fact download the trial of FCPX and have been learning the new interface. The $300 vs $800 price tag of FCPX vs Premiere definitely makes a difference in my budget. But I am still getting to know the radically new FCPX interface, and getting used to how it imports and manages media. The fact that the import is supposed to happen automatically is confusing me about where all the actual files are going and what is happening. Thus far transcoding the clips during import has taken much longer on FCPX (2.5 hrs to import a 4.5 min clip) than it did on my FCP6 system with clipwrap. So maybe there is a setting I have set wrong, but so far I'm not loving it. It also seems to perform very slowly on my MacBook Pro, unlike legacy.

For those of you who like FCPX, what are your preferred settings for import from the XA10?

Another drawback is that I do a lot of subtitling using XML files, and my subtitling software is not compatible with the new FCPX XML file format. I still have yet to learn how subtitling will work with FCPX.

Thank you for all of the ideas - its really helpful to know what is working well for others.

Thank you for all of the feedback. I did in fact download the trial of FCPX and have been learning the new interface. The $300 vs $800 price tag of FCPX vs Premiere definitely makes a difference in my budget. But I am still getting to know the radically new FCPX interface, and getting used to how it imports and manages media. The fact that the import is supposed to happen automatically is confusing me about where all the actual files are going and what is happening. Thus far transcoding the clips during import has taken much longer on FCPX (2.5 hrs to import a 4.5 min clip) than it did on my FCP6 system with clipwrap. So maybe there is a setting I have set wrong, but so far I'm not loving it. It also seems to perform very slowly on my MacBook Pro, unlike legacy.

For those of you who like FCPX, what are your preferred settings for import from the XA10?

Another drawback is that I do a lot of subtitling using XML files, and my subtitling software is not compatible with the new FCPX XML file format. I still have yet to learn how subtitling will work with FCPX.

Thank you for all of the ideas - its really helpful to know what is working well for others.

All of this is interesting because I'm just getting ready to order an XA10. One reason being that this camera is on the list of FCPX compatible cameras. I certainly cannot wait 2.5 hours for a 4 1/2 minute. Are you transferring from the built in memory or using cards? This is making more than a little nervous about ordering the camera.

As an aside, FCP and FCPX are weird to me in how the deal with footage to begin with. With Sony Vegas you drag and drop from any folder on your PC and you start edting.

XA10 footage is pretty much just standard AVCHD, so I don't understand the difficulty, but then again Vegas is so user friendly it's probably not fair to compare.

The XA10 should be no more difficult than any other AVCHD camera, but not being an FCPX user I truly don't know what I'm talking about, so I'll shut up.

Aya, there is no way that it should take 2.5 hours to import a 5 minute clip. I just imported a 5m31s clip in 12 seconds. I did make it create "proxy media" too, and that took about 5 minutes. "proxy" is 1/4 scale, H.264 file and makes it much faster to edit. When exporting, you change "proxy" to original / optimised media (optimised changes it to ProRes422). That will take time, but that's the sort of thing you leave running when you're doing other things (not with FCPX unfortunately.... exporting ties the whole thing up).

I think you might have clicked every option when importing.... create proxy files, create optimised files, analyse audio, analyse video etc. That will take time until the footage is ready to play with. Best to have that done once it's in, in the background.

Another important thing to know is you cannot separate the .mts files from the rest of the structure.... that has caused a lot of problems. You just plug the camera in, click "import from camera", tell it where you want it saving, and that's it.

You can also archive, which copies the original AVCHD files to a vault for work later, which is handy.

My gut feeling about FCPX.... it's not quite ready for the pros yet. Nor was FCP 1 when it came out. In the very near future, provided Apple remain committed (which I'm sure hoping they will!) I think it will be the standard for all others to follow, just as FCP was in the earlier days. Quirks and bugs aside, it really is enjoyable to use.

All of this is interesting because I'm just getting ready to order an XA10.

The H264 based AVCHD format is generally more difficult to edit than the mpeg2 formats used in many other cameras. Directly editing AVCHD is possible, however, it is often recommended to convert it to some other format before editing.

My impression is that FCP is "very Apple" about how it deals with file logging and transfer. If the files are in the camcorder' directory structure complete with the non-stream directories and auxiliary files it usually works, but if you have separate stand alone MTS files you may be out in the cold. I've heard that least some not-so-old versions of FCP do not deal with native AVCHD files but convert to ProRes/MOV(?) format with substantial file size growth and transcoding time.

Bottom line was if it is not a log and transfer diretly from the camcorder there may be issues.

All of this is interesting because I'm just getting ready to order an XA10. One reason being that this camera is on the list of FCPX compatible cameras. I certainly cannot wait 2.5 hours for a 4 1/2 minute. Are you transferring from the built in memory or using cards? This is making more than a little nervous about ordering the camera.

Scott, forgot to mention, I wouldn't pass up a good camera because you're worried how it will work with FCPX... I'd be inclined to change the software, and go for something like Premiere instead!

Having said that, my G10 works perfectly with FCPX, provided you follow the importing instructions, e.g. do not try and separate the .mts files from the rest, or there will be tears!

I ordered the camera late last night. I've read of many issues that some were having while others say it's a dream. Obviously, I'm hoping for the dream version. ;-) If that goes well then I'm going to pick up the G10 for my wife. I'm holding onto my other cameras till I'm sure that all will go well. We will soon see. :-)

Scott, please don't let my current editing issues dissuade you from buying the xa10 - I love the camera and have been very happy with it. The editing issues I'm coming up against are more coming from getting to know the new fcpx system that approaches import and media management in a radically different way than previous systems. But I whole-heartedly recommend the camera itself. It generates beautiful footage and good audio.

Don, yes, I agree that FCPx's importing is 'very apple'. like iphoto it wants to sweep your footage away into their file structure and not let you know exactly how its put together. Also, speaking of iphoto, the photo integration with FCPx really pushes you use iphoto (argh).

Geoff, thanks for this feedback on FCPX. I suspect you may be right about why it took so long to import that 4.5 min clip. When you cite your import time, is that the time it took to import only, and then additional time was required for the material to transcode?

I started a new event to import the footage, and with create optimized and create proxy media checked, it took a little longer than 2 times the clip run length to transcode/import the footage. (a 16 min clip took 34 minutes, so much more reasonable). The problem I'm currently having is with reconnecting media - I had to cut the latest import short due to lack of disk space (250GB wasn't enough), and I had to stop the import in order to free up more space. Now, I have a bunch of unconnected clips, and am unable to 're-import' them from the standard camera import window, as they are supposedly already imported, but not transcoded. That being said, I'm sure I'll slog through this, and as others have mentioned, there are a lot of really fun and interesting things about X that seem like they'll be great as soon as they've updated it for a full range of use. For now, I'm going to try to get the rest of my clips in and I'll post how to handle the reconnecting media if i can figure it out...

Thanks for all the feedback!

Aya, that 5m 31s clip took 12 seconds to import from the flash card to the hard disc. I'm pretty sure my old Mac (2006!) is USB 1 only so it should be quicker via USB2. Some say you have to leave the camera / card plugged in until transcoding is finished... I don't think that's true, in fact I'm fairly certain once the file is dumped onto your hard disc, it all works from there, not the camera. But TEST FIRST!! Transcoding to proxy (h.264, quarter size) took about 5 minutes (maybe a bit longer, I didn't time it that closely).

I don't analyse anything coming in.... that can be done "as necessary" after you've reviewed the footage.

I can't think of a good reason to create optimised media coming in. That will create a huge ProRes file. I create proxy to work with, and before exporting / sharing, click "Use optimised OR ORIGINAL media". Then what happens is all of the titles, transitions etc. have to be rendered, but FC uses the original media to work with when converting for output, which saves a lot of disc space.

I can't really help with the re-connect issue... I'm still learning myself and haven't come across that issue yet. What I have done though is managed media direct from the finder, which is easier for me. For example, if I'll just delete events and projects from the FC folders on the hard disc (when FC is shut down) and when I relaunch, voila, they're gone and I can start again! Saves getting things "muddled".

Finally, I can see how you may think you're being pushed to iPhoto, but in fairness it's just a convenient way to get photos in. My photos browser allows me to pick from Aperture, iPhoto or photobooth! As my photos are already sorted into albums in Aperture, it makes it so much easier (especially as I don't re-name photos usually). You can always "import file" if you have pictures elsewhere.

Hope this helps a little, and good luck!

geoff, thanks for your advice about the optimized media setting. so i could do all the editing, and then only use the optimized media for the export? that is *REALLY* good to know, because importing the optimized media takes a long time. when i import the clips (probably since I have import optimized media set), it 'imports' them quickly, but i can't see them in the program at all; all i can see are the red unconnected media squares. i'll change my preferences and do a re-test. thanks!

also glad to know that you can move footage around in the finder. a demo i watched said to always move files around from within X or it will unconnect the links, so i've been hesitant to do it. but within final cut it doesn't show you the total file sizes being moved, which seems crazy because it is clearly impt to know how large or a file you're moving.

as an update to the editing issues i've had with the FCPX trial, in case this is helpful for anyone... in fcpx if something 'imports' it is not necessarily transcoded and copied into the file, but its imprint is still there, so you can't just re-import it. thus, after i 'imported' my clips, but not all of the clips were copied and transcoded, i ended up with a bunch of unconnected media. still, fcpx would not allow me to 're-import' the clips. i finally figured out that you just cannot reconnect media in fcpx like you would in legacy. you have to delete the unconnected media files first (select them and then use command-delete), and only then will the system allow you to reimport, and transcode and copy the files into your 'event folder'.

other than these import experiments, once the footage is in, it seems really easy and fast to work with, and i really love the background render thing. there is a lot to be said for how quick and functional the set up is, and i can see what people are liking about it.

however, i am really missing the lack of viable subtitling plugins for fcpx. if anyone knows of X workarounds for subtitles, i'm all ears!

Aya, I'm not a "Pro", so use any of my advice with caution! Optimised turns the AVCHD (.mts) file into a ProRes 422 file, which is greatly de-compressed, and therefore considered by many to be easier to work with. If you have masses of disc space it seems to be the way the Pros go.

I don't have the disc space, and my final "delivery" doesn't need PR422, so I avoid it. It can multiply the file size by 5 or 6, easy!

If you create optimised media when it comes in, FC will use that to transcode into whatever you've chosen for output. Because I don't create it, FC uses the original media (provided that is selected in playback preferences before export) which is h.264 pulled in from the AVCHD camera files. Doing this saves me gigabytes of space, and lots of time.

You won't be able to work with your clips until they're transcoded. Using Proxy takes very little time, using ProRes takes ages.

The advice about moving footage is sound.... you're better to do it from within FC as it will keep track of where stuff is. However, if you get stuck, and want to start again, don't be afraid to go to the finder, get hold of the event or project file, and delete as necessary..... make sure your original footage is somewhere safe! I generally "archive" from the camera and use the archive as the "camera" when I'm ready.

As to importing, there is an option on the import window to save a copy into the events folder. If you don't it will be a referenced file. If it gets moved, FC will need help finding it!

Geoff, thanks again for this feedback. As an update, I did try to do another import, and still have been having slower import times than you reported. I had 40minutes of footage that took about an hour and a half to transcode to proxy media. It 'imports' in a few minutes, but the clips aren't usable in the system until the transcoding to proxy is complete. I'm really not sure what the problem is. Perhaps it could be that my 4gb of ram isn't enough for X? Maybe I need to upgrade to 8gb ($400). If so that would put me about in the same price bracket as just getting Premiere...

I've kind of hit a wall today. I use FCPX.

Last night was the first chance I've had to shoot anything with the XA10 and even then it was just a wide shot ... about 90 minutes worth. I shot directly to the camera's built in memory. I hit create proxy media, but wasn't sure if that was what I was supposed to do or leave everything un-checked. (Final delivery is DVD.) I simply used the "import from camera" feature ... did not drag anything to my computer.

I let it import overnight and then while looking at it today, the footage does not play back smoothly.

Did I do or not do something properly? Not enough info?

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks ~

Scott

ETA: the audio plays back fine ... it's the video portion.

Many things can cause video not to play smoothly on a computer, ranging form AV software to the configuration of storage media, and just plain lack of raw power in the computer or the graphics card.

Try create a DVD (need not be a long DVD, a few minutes of program should be enough for the test and see how it plays on a system designed for video playback (e.g., a DVD player and TV).

Given that people have no significant issues with the XA10 and other main-stream editing software such as EDIUS, Premiere, and Vegas, the issue is most likely something on you computer and/or the way FXP works and does or doesn't play well with others.

Aya, I'm going to be taking about an hour of video shortly (I've not shot that length before without transfer!) so I'll have a better benchmark for comparison.... but the figures you're posting do seem a long way off mine. They do say the more RAM you have the better, but I'm using only 5 Gb.

Scott, as Don says, it could be one of a lot of things. One big thing to avoid, apparently, is putting your Events Folder (working clips) onto the same disc as the system / FCPX disc, if you can. It's best to use another internal or an external disc for the clips. Did you play it back in the Events Browser or the Timeline? The reason for creating proxy is that the files are 1/4 size, and much easier for editing. Before you export, you must make sure you click "Optimised or original" in the playback preferences, or you proxy footage will be transcoded instead..... that won't give you a good result.

Both, for detailed FCPX troubleshooting, it's worth visiting the Apple Support Community forum. You'll find a lot of complaints about FC being slow, but also a lot of advice on how to get the best out of it, if you decide to use it and not PP6!!

I just had my wife shoot an event for me tonight that I was actually in. I'm going to try and find some time to look at it tomorrow and see if I can make this work better. Thanks for the information ... I'll check out my settings. (Always an external drive for me.)