But to me it is still a stills camera. If the emphasis is on cinematic use then why is theire a shutter button top and bottom? How many 5D MK2 owners who bought their cameras for video actually use it for stills? Maybe a 1D with 4K video function?
I'd expect with a $6000 price tag.

How many 5D MK2 owners who bought their cameras for video actually use it for stills?

I bought the 5D2 explicitly for video in late 2008. Before the D90 started this whole thing, I didn't have $500 budgeted for a DSLR. Large sensor, cinematic video changed the whole value proposition for me.

Yesterday I shot 99% video. Today I shot 99% stills. :)

I use a 5DMKII solely for still photography. The video has too many issues for me. I would like to upgrade to the MKIII but only if the video would allow it to be good enough to justify and for me to use. The 5DMKII is that good of a stills camera that I do not need an upgrade for still use.

I am not a big market segment (feet in both stills and video). I would really need to know the C-DSLR would be good enough as a stills camera before adopting it to replace the 5DMKII.

Video issues? Yep.

I'm traveling "light and solo" and brought the VAF, follow focus, loupe, shoulder rig, and a monopod to make shooting video enjoyable and worthwhile. Moire, jello, and focus are the big three issues.

BTW, I just got the monopod and I really like it in combination with handles and a loupe. When walking, it gives some more mass for added stability. I can tuck it into my belt to carry the weight and be agile. (I untuck to walk.) And, of course, I can extend it to touch the ground when I'm stationary with a longer lens. I think I'm finally happy with a DSLR kit that I can carry-on an airliner.

Of course, the 5D3 would be a step up: No VAF to hassle with between video and photos/ultra-wides. Half the jello would still be welcome. And who can't use two more stops of light? If the codec is improved, that's another win.

The next horizon to me isn't 4K, it's more bit depth, if not RAW. And some improved focusing tools.

I'm still not sure if I'll upgrade to the Mark III, get a 2nd gen crop cam, or wait for the mystery EOS C camera. The footage I shot yesterday on the 5D2 and the falling sun looks darn good!

I am one of them that want a camera that has quality like 5D... also a camera that can take good picture, so i don't need to buy two separate camera.

i use to use XHA1, i only use that for job.. i never use it other than that.... even sometimes i try use it for family video... but end up all footage stay on tape and never watch again...

after i got a 5D... i can use it for work, video and photo... and other than that, i can still take it when i travel and regular use

but i am now thinking to go back to having a professional video camera... 5D are everywhere.... even a guest use 5D in a wedding.... it makes us less professional when using it for work.

I like to have a EOS camcorder, at least i can use all my EF lenses, C300 is just too expensive

The next horizon to me isn't 4K, it's more bit depth, if not RAW...


I agree. I'm not familiar with a RAW workflow, only the limitations of 8bit. A decent 10bit onboard recording as well as 8bit MPEG2 50Mbps(+) for fast turnaround would be ideal for me.

I'm betting a dollar that it is the 4K DSLR that they showed at the November event.......but, to cover all the bases, I bet a dollar it's the 4K version of the C300 that won't come out 'til the end of the year.....and to be safe, I'll bet a dollar that Ms. Howard will show her film. There......I think I got it covered!

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

My vote is it's the C100 (or whatever they call it). A less-featured sibling of the C300. Same sensor and ergonomics. No SDI/genlock. No vectorscope. H.264 codec and i-frame options of the 5D3. No monitor/handle deal-ios. Either no XLR or fewer options on the sound side.

Soo... whoever is closest, and called it first, GETS whatever IS announced on tax day. Riiiight??? ;-) We should start a pool!

I doubt highly that this camera will street for less than $6,000 just based on the pro-line body form factor. If it is FF35 4k, there's no reason to assume it will cost less than $10,000. I sense a flood of "damn Canon for making this too expensive" threads around mid April.

I'm inclined to agree with you. They have always 'disappointed' when it comes to price. Even the Canon G1X - Canon's late entry to APS-C mirrorless - is more expensive than the NEX-5n or GX3. The T3i DSLR is in the same ballpark, but with far more features.

Since Canon as the no1 photo brand, charges a premium over other brands. It's common practice with most companies. Sony used to do that - probably still does - in consumer and professional video for decades. My problem is that Canon seems to overprice its pro video products without being No 1.

My guess if is not just a screening:
4k with Raw

My vote is it's the C100 (or whatever they call it). A less-featured sibling of the C300. Same sensor and ergonomics. No SDI/genlock. No vectorscope. H.264 codec and i-frame options of the 5D3. No monitor/handle deal-ios. Either no XLR or fewer options on the sound side.

Soo... whoever is closest, and called it first, GETS whatever IS announced on tax day. Riiiight??? ;-) We should start a pool!
It would not be H.264/mpeg 4 codec....It would be the same codec as the C300

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

When the Canon 5Ds video first appeared the most surprised group of people was the Canon video camera folk.

They probably couldn't believe it and I'd say they complained bitterly to the Head Honcho.

Imo it's been shown they work in separate vacuums from each other and it's all to do with trickle down technology in each others field.

HH wanted to them to share one large Canteen but it goes way back to the Ninjas.

Cheers.

It would not be H.264/mpeg 4 codec....It would be the same codec as the C300

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

If a DSLR comes with the Canon XF code, that's a major win. It's a true broadcast 50mbps, 4:2:2 codec. I'd be all over that. I have an FS100, and it's a great camera, but the AVCHD codec is a bit lacking.

Haven't we learned from RED that it's very difficult to do that much video processing and recording inside a housing as small as DSLR? And that the other caveat about crunching that much math and moving that many pixels around creates a LOT of heat?

Not sure if a 4K 50mb/s codec DSLR is even technically feasible outside a test-bench.

Good point and which shows that in my mind, we are not ready for 4k on a large scale.

Looking back at the dawn of the HD era, there was a flood of under resolved and overly compressed products that were released just to say they were HD and for sale. Now that it is shown that true HD with lower levels of compression looks just great even for cinema.

At this point I see 4k as pure marketing and it would be shame for Canon to release a 4k DSLR when they jury is still out on the HD versions.

........it's very difficult to do that much video processing and recording inside a housing as small as DSLR? And that the other caveat about crunching that much math and moving that many pixels around creates a LOT of heat?
I think that's true, but a way round it would be to record RAW. In which case much of the processing etc can be removed from camera to computer and become a post operation.
Not sure if a 4K 50mb/s codec DSLR is even technically feasible outside a test-bench.
I don't think there's any question of a 4k 50Mbs codec is there?

The 50Mbs codec works very well for processed 1080, but it's a 1080 codec, period. Any 4k recording would need something totally different.

A camera with 4k RAW and 1080p 50Mbs would (IMO) be a very good balance. Use the 50Mbs codec for broadcast work which has a relatively quick turn around time, and 4k RAW for most post control and when there's time and resources to do it.

It should be possible to do both satisfactorily with the C300 chip - but is this a DSLR? "DSLR" implies a camera optimised for stills, and the 8 megapixel chip is low for high quality stills.

4K can be compressed to 50 Mbps - it can be compressed to 0.5 Mbps if you want it to happen. Nothing in the compression specs forbid it.

The interesting thing is that the 50Mbps 4:2:2 Interframe specification was adopted by broadcasters for 1080/720 video (defined by SMPTE) only, as David mentioned. To get roughly the same 'quality' at 4K, one would need approximately 200-250Mbps - but then again those deciding the specs will also have to look at the current broadcast pipeline, technologies and bandwidth available, not to mention that 4K on home screens are a wasted effort (at present) at regular viewing distances and light levels.

The DCI lower limit for compression, for 2K and 4K, are exactly the same. I find that ludicrous.

A camera with 4k RAW and 1080p 50Mbs would (IMO) be a very good balance. Use the 50Mbs codec for broadcast work which has a relatively quick turn around time, and 4k RAW for most post control and when there's time and resources to do it.

Although I also find your proposition very well balanced, 1080p 50Mbits still needs a lot processing so it is unlike that it would be implemented in a DSLR factor.

If it is a DSLR it possible that will derive 4K from 30Mpxls and at the same time be a full fledged still DSLR. Canon needs to address Nikon's D800 sooner or later. So if its not at NAB, it must be within a year.

If I try to summarize most opinions, it will either be a C100 1080p 50Mbits, resembling C300, but with less feature and (hopefully) more reasonably priced or a 4K Raw DSLR with a price TBA
I would say 60%-40% it will be a 4K DSLR.

It should be a 4K DSLR for B cam applications in DSLR form factor. Great for rigging shots. Price is definately going to be $10k in my guess

Although I also find your proposition very well balanced, 1080p 50Mbits still needs a lot processing so it is unlike that it would be implemented in a DSLR factor.
I'm not sure that's true about the processing - I'd have thought H264 is more processor intensive than MPEG2? Most of the effort goes into processing the effort off the chip.

But I wasn't really thinking of a DSLR anyway when I referred to a "camera with 4k RAW and 1080p 50Mbs" - rather a big brother to the C300.
If it is a DSLR it possible that will derive 4K from 30Mpxls and at the same time be a full fledged still DSLR. Canon needs to address Nikon's D800 sooner or later. So if its not at NAB, it must be within a year.
And from elsewhere, the following:

More pixels are coming
A suggestion that a high megapixel camera is coming from Canon, and could be introduced near the end of 2012. Alongside the camera would come new ultra wide angle lens(es). It was suggested both a zoom and a prime in the area of 16mm.

I warn that this sort of conjecture will be a regular occurrence going forward I think. There is a large number of people in the community that desire a 35+ megapixel camera from Canon.

NAB 2012?
Some have suggested the upcoming 4K DSLR will be the high megapixel camera. I don’t believe that to be true, as the high megapixel count is definitely a request of the photographic community, and paying for high end video features is probably not something that would make the segment too happy.


Rumour and speculation, obviously, but it would make sense. PRIMARILY for stills, but if twice the 4k pixel count hor and vert it could be read relatively easily, (same method of 2x2 as used in the C300). And whilst the resolution may be "high end video",I doubt most of the other aspects could be described that way, when compared to the C300. "4k high end video" would imply high bit depth RAW - I don't see there being anything like that in any such product.
If I try to summarize most opinions, it will either be a C100 1080p 50Mbits, resembling C300, but with less feature and (hopefully) more reasonably priced or a 4K Raw DSLR with a price TBA
I would say 60%-40% it will be a 4K DSLR.
Missing off that list is the "C500". A C300 but with 4k ability - but not something that can really be called a DSLR. Is NAB really the place to announce what is fundamentally a DSLR?

Although I also find your proposition very well balanced, 1080p 50Mbits still needs a lot processing so it is unlike that it would be implemented in a DSLR factor.

But doesn't Canon's DSLRs already process 1080 at 44Mbps? 50Mbps isn't an issue, like the GH2 hacks show.

I'll go back to my original opinion.
I think the hottest, most competitive camera they could produce would be a dedicated 1080 film making DSLR with the XF codec.

Only the smallest niche of users need or will need 4k. 1080 is and will be, for camera cycles to come, the standard for all but cinematic work.

But give it a 50 mbps 4:2:2 robust codec for grading and green screen, full use of the EF lens line, 35mm full frame field and depth of view and you could have a camera that would be to this market what the original 5DII was three years ago.

With the buttons dedicated to video oriented controls and a battery grip with XLR input and you've bridged the divide.

That is exactly the camera I am hoping for and why I have not rushed out to buy a 5DMkIII. As to if we will get it I am currently rather cynical. After all, Canon might see it robbing sales from the C300.

However, if Canon don't fill this customer need soon the others surely will.

So basically, what most of us want is a Canon XF105, but with a large sensor and an EF lens mount. Perhaps in a DSLR body, perhaps not. Methinks you could have a better layout of video-centric controls on an XF body design. All for under $10,000, hopefully a lot less.

The XF105, with its 8-bit, 4:2:2, 50mbps, broadcast quality codec, retails for $4,000. It's hard to believe that the C300, with the same codec, quadrupled in price compared to the XF105. Just how expensive is that large sensor and accompanying hardware? You'd think Canon could figure out a way to squeeze the EF mount and hardware into an XF105 body, maybe even an XF305, for less than $16,000. Sony managed to put a large sensor and an E-mount in the VG10/20, basically a consumer Handicam design. It's hamstrung with an AVCHD codec, but physically a large sensor can fit into a small camcorder.

Maybe that's why there's been such shell-shock over the C300 price.

\Maybe that's why there's been such shell-shock over the C300 price.There was only sticker shock among those film maker wannabees who expected an Alexa for $5K. The C300 is selling like hot cakes to video professionals.

There was only sticker shock among those film maker wannabees who expected an Alexa for $5K. The C300 is selling like hot cakes to video professionals.

I'm a 20+ year video professional. $16K is still a lot of $$$ to me. Not saying it isn't worth it.

$16k is quite a lot for those camcorder features when compare to mk3 which can do pretty close quality to c300 in 1/5 price

Let me clarify my position a bit.

I'm not saying the C300 isn't worth the price. It has a great codec, a broadcast quality codec, which all professional videographers love. It gets us more work if we have a camera with this ability. Plus, that amazing 4K sensor.

Speaking for myself, I was expecting (hoping?) for something like an XF305 with an interchangeable lens system and a large sensor. I figured - wrongly - that all Canon had to do was basically take an XF305, remove the lens and sensor block, and add the large sensor and lens mount. You know, a lens mount and sensor like that from a $2,000 7D, only aimed for the video market. Heck, they don't even need to supply a lens, we'll take care of that.
Since the XF305 retails for about $7,200, I figured maybe $2-4,000 more in price? After all, it doesn't even come with a lens. I'm sure that alone adds quite a bit to the 305's price.
I was just a bit shocked when the C300 is over twice the price of an XF305. Not just me, but other camera owners I know thought the same.

Obviously, I have no idea how difficult it is for Canon to produce the C300. $16,995 worth of difficulty, apparently.

Jan with Panasonic has supposedly stated they could have built the AF100 with P2 capability - AVC-intra 100 - but that would have added about $2,000 to the final price. I say - build it!!! Even for $4,000 more it'd still be a hell of a bargain.

I just wanted to illustrate why some professionals might have had sticker shock with the C300.

That is exactly the camera I am hoping for and why I have not rushed out to buy a 5DMkIII. As to if we will get it I am currently rather cynical. After all, Canon might see it robbing sales from the C300.

However, if Canon don't fill this customer need soon the others surely will.

It is pretty much the ideal evolution for the genre (DSLR filmmakers).

Everyone is aware that the DOF revolution started with the P&S Mini 35 and created an entire industry of spinning glass lens adapters.

Three years ago that industry had an Extinction Level Event with the introduction of the 5DII

Canon has the best/broadest lens line in the world with the EF and Canon shooters are always upgrading their glass.

They've already produced a beautiful small form camera and image with XF100/105.

The DSLR industry is primed and waiting for the perfect union of the XF image, codec and control and the 5D sensor and mount. It would be the crowning achievement in their new brand of EOS filmmaking.

They would sell like nothing else on the market if they hit a similar, comparative price point.

Maybe bad news guys and gals. The RUMOR today is that the Canon C-DSLR won't now be available for sale until Q4 2012 or Q1 2013. Read into all that what you will but I stress its just web chatter for now. I guess this is a typical cycle time from NAB announcements to product availability for these things but I'll let others who know the typical pattern confirm that.

....So, lots of time for Sony and Panasonic to launch a FS200, AF200 etc. in the £4000-6000 area then....please...roll on NAB!

Also, as an aside, there are some web reports today that Nikon is increasing the price of the D800 by £200 (i.e. it will now be closer to the price of the 5DMkIII) and the D4 by £500. I believe this is much more solid info and includes D800s and D4s on backorder - its via the dpreview forums and Nikon forums.

I won't speculate on that one, but I have my thoughts if it turns out to be true.

Missing off that list is the "C500". A C300 but with 4k ability - but not something that can really be called a DSLR. Is NAB really the place to announce what is fundamentally a DSLR?

I was hoping for a C500 also, but Canon showed a 4K DSLR teaser photo, so I have to comply my prediction with that. I still believe is a wrong decision and they should design their 4K effort as a normal video camera.

The RUMOR today is that the Canon C-DSLR won't now be available for sale until Q4 2012 or Q1 2013.

That rumor has some basis in fact. Back when the 4K DSLR was announced, Canon USA said that it wouldn't be announced in detail until the end of the year or later. Because of the Canon event on April 15th, some people jumped the gun and assumed that it would be the 4K DSLR announcement.

I think there's no way that Canon would have cut eight months off the expected 4K DSLR schedule since November.

The next announcements (not necessarily at NAB) are more likely to be a next gen crop DSLR and a sister to (or daughter of?) the C300. I have no idea of the schedules though.

My boy is top editor/producer in London and we were talking on the phone today about projects. They have to shoot BBC standard and so don't have any experience with the 5DII but he told me (unsolicited) that their Canon Rep was by last week and told him that Canon was releasing the 5D concept in a "proper" (they talk like that) camera body.

So, all the more reason I say, full sensor, EF lens, XF codec, 1080p.

Now THAT would be exciting. A Vistavision-sized sensor, with 'proper' 1080p output (no line-skipping/moire headaches) would really get my toes curling (especially if it can put out an image like the C300's).

Just remember to include LOG recording Canon!

I think some people have forgotten quite how much a professional broadcast camcorder costs. The only other hand held self contained camcorder on the BBC approved list is the XF300/305. The only other low priced camcorders with interchangeable lenses are the Sony EX3 & Panasonic AF101 which with the addition of a nanoFlash cost about 2/3 the price of a C300 which is a far superior camera. Start looking at shoulder mount broadcast cameras like the Panasonic HPX3700 & they cost three times the price of the C300.

Canon can't make the C300 fast enough to meet the demand so clearly the price is no disincentive to purchase.

It really wasn't all that long ago when a basic VariCam HD package went for $80,000.

And there are enough members here in the "I remember when" age bracket that will recall the Beta SP kits that routinely sold for $40,000 and that's standard definition video, folks... recording analog to tape.

I haven't forgotten. I used to own a Sony BVW-400.

It turns out that the invitation was literally for a screening.

BUT

... there will be an announcement a couple of days later:

HD Magazine - HD Mag - Canon's NextEvolution (http://www.definitionmagazine.com/journal/2012/3/27/canons-next-evolution.html)

It's not a couple of days later; it's the very next day, Mon. the 16th. DV Info Net has received the same invitation.

And those that have been following this thread, have known all along that the Sun. event was a screening.

They have to shoot BBC standard ........he told me (unsolicited) that their Canon Rep was by last week and told him that Canon was releasing the 5D concept in a "proper" (they talk like that) camera body.
I just wonder if he was referring to the C300...... ? BBC approved codec, a "proper" body, "proper" 1080p output, the only thing missing from your list is the s35 sensor instead of VistaVision.

But..... so what? S35 may be better from a lens availability point of view, and I wonder if by "5D concept" what was intended was "lot bigger than 2/3"? To put numbers on that, compared to 2/3" at a given f stop, a four-thirds sensor will give similar dof 2 stops stopped down, 3 stops for s35 and 4 stops for full-frame.

My contacts don't know what it is.....but I'd guess it's a 2nd showing of the Sunday night event.........I think....but what do I know. See you there Chris!

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com