Folks, I have shot on Super 16mm and HD in the past but have been away from the video game since the latter went mainstream and to be honest feeling somewhat intimidated by the flood of different models - would appreciate if you could suggest a unit that satisfies the following requirements/constraints for a low budget feature that will be shot 'from the hip' in uncontrolled environments:

-1920 x 1080
-progressive frame rate in mid twenties, i.e. 24p or 25p
-pistol grip, not shoulder based
-great in low light, not just 'surprisingly good' ;)
-excellent sound from onboard mic (5.1 not required but welcome)
-records to non-moving part memory, i.e. neither removable storage nor spinning hard drive
-either friendly to different lenses or famous for quality of bundled lens..
-able to record uncompressed or using a compression system that doesn't appear to undermine image

I have noticed that many of the models fitting the above description render a version of HD which is not particularly strong (more like up-res'd SD!) and wondering if any manufacturers have overcome such limitations yet? Many thanks in advance for any model suggestions you may have, however obvious or unusual they may seem! Please note I am totally restricted by the above, so any camera that falls outside these parameters is unfortunately not a runner. However, price is not too much of a consideration at this point.

Depends on your budget, but Canon C300 or Sony F3 (although getting rather large for holding just in your hand operation), for a lower price possibly FS100, if you don't mind HDMI.

The "great low light" tends to restrict the smaller sensor cameras.

Yes, I am looking at the C300 at the moment. That's the kind of physical size and shape I am talking about, whereas the F3 would be a little unwieldy. Although more impressed with the build of C300 than image, tbh.

I see that compression is probably unavoidable, unless I want to send the image somewhere else while shooting - which I don't!

Any other thoughts, folks?

If you don't mind RAW, you could check out the RED Scarlet. Although, delivery times might be an issue if you need a camera quickly.

If you want uncompressed, take a look at the Ikonoskop A-Cam dii: A-Cam dII The camera loves you | A-Cam dII | Products | Ikonoskop (http://www.ikonoskop.com/dii/)

That A Cam is quite interesting, Arnie. Have you used it? Anyone else used it? I guess you could describe it as shoulder-based, but it's well designed and looks like you could move quite freely with it. I like the lens compatibility too. And the memory cards they supply or make.

The Red Scarlet is tempting too, although the waiting list thing is a bit worrying - thanks Brian.

I have not used it, but I've been following it's development over the last couple of years. There's some sample footage available on their site, BTW, & I think the quality looks pretty good. I think they're best known for their little super 16 camera.

Leaning towards the JVC GY-HMQ10 4K even though its not pistol grip, still small enough that one could almost treat it that way, what do you guys make of this particular model?

suggest a unit that satisfies the following requirements/constraints for a low budget feature that will be shot 'from the hip' in uncontrolled environments:

...
-great in low light, not just 'surprisingly good'

You need a large sensor camera.

-excellent sound from onboard mic (5.1 not required but welcome)

This would eliminate all the HDSLRs (even though they meet all other requirements perfectly), unless you used an external recording source.


-records to non-moving part memory, i.e. neither removable storage nor spinning hard drive

The only camera I'm aware of that records to non-removable storage is the Vision Research Phantom. And that too is limited to 32GB, I think. All other modern large sensor cameras use 'solid state' media that is non-moving but has to be removed for ingest.

-either friendly to different lenses or famous for quality of bundled lens..

This eliminates the JVC, as it has a fixed lens, doesn't it?


-able to record uncompressed or using a compression system that doesn't appear to undermine image

In my experience none of the modern cameras 'undermines' the image in any way. Based on your requirements, here is what I seriously suggest:

Option One: Total budget for camera/audio gear less than $10,000: Canon 5D Mark III or Nikon D800 with glass, an external audio recorder and rig. Theoretically, the Nikon fulfills all of your conditions, including uncompressed HD, but the Canon is probably better in low-light.

Option Two: Total budget is around $20,000: Rent your gear. If you're shooting a feature, I don't suggest buying gear at all. But if you have to, the camera that fulfills all your options is the Sony F3 with S-log if you need it. For your particular case, I would avoid the Scarlet and the C300 unless you had a lot of money to splurge - but in that case why not shoot 16mm film?

Folks, I have shot on Super 16mm and HD in the past but have been away from the video game since the latter went mainstream and to be honest feeling somewhat intimidated by the flood of different models.

I don't know your budget, but you might consider the Sony NEX-VG20 or NEX-FS100. Either of these would be cheaper than the cameras mentioned so far and still meet your requirements.

What's the specific concern regarding compression?

Actually, non-removable storage isn't the right way to say it, because SDHC cards can be removed. What I mean about the storage is that I don't want it to involve moving parts, i.e. tape or spinning hard drive. The term you use Sareesh, 'solid state', is a better way to describe what I am after in this respect!

I'm not sure that I eliminate the new 4K JVC because of the lens. I think it would be possible to use other lens on that camera - but also from the test footage, this camera can likely do excellent HD too and If I was simply doing 1080p on this cam, the fixed lens they chose would probably satisfy me.

I used that company's HD1 and PD1 in the past and was very pleased - and have a feeling this new 4K will be similar, just in the sense that it's their first prosumer 4K and so, yes, will probably be bested by a follow-up model by the end of the year / early next year, but also seems like it's just a good camera. I mean, all these years later and I still think that old HD1 is good.

As for my concern regarding compression, Charles, it's the same as anyone else's, which is that I want to be sure it's not trashing the image! From what I have read, the compression on this new JVC doesn't undermine the image and getting 2hrs of 4K or a lot more 1080p onto 128GB of SDHC cards ain't bad. It's a lot more than I could have shot on film. Definitely not shooting film again either, Sareesh! I loved shooting on Super 16mm back in the day, no interest now... :)

The only remaining concern I have is how good the new JVC will be in low light, given the relatively small sensor. I guess we'll have to wait for more test footage?

Thanks for your help, everyone.

-excellent sound from onboard mic
- does not exist, plus like Sareesh says, this eliminates DSLRs, which depending on he budget might be my first choice;

if the great low light is a real issue primes will be always faster, and will give you better reults than any fixed lens, looking at the requirements I'd definetly go with large chip, and today we have quite a few to choose from, but it's really hard to give any advice without knowing your budget,

No-one's mentioned the SI2K[/ur]. The heads are around $15K, or were according to a price list from 2007. Not sure what they are now, nor how much it would cost to get a shooting rig together.

Another suggestion would be an [url=http://www.indiecam.com/]Indiecam (http://www.siliconimaging.com/) POV set up mounted on a suitable camera rig.

I can't remember how much the heads are, but I recall them being around €10K from my discussion with their rep at the BVE show a few weeks back.

Both of these use 16 mm glass, and that's increasingly cheap because no-one wants it these days.

I love (or should say: loved) the SI-2K minis. They were great four years ago. But too much work needs to go into making them production worthy compared to other options in the same (or cheaper) price range in 2012. And not everyone likes the DOF from the SI-2K sensor.

However, if a full rig can be rented, and the OP loves the look, why not? After all, it's the only 'cheap' digital camera system AFAIK that has won an Oscar for cinematography. But I wouldn't choose it in today's time based on price or ease of use.

Here's an interesting new camera, a Digital 16 Bolex. It shoots in 2K RAW, with 12-bit, 4:4:4 color. All for around $3,000. It sounds like the perfect independent film camera:

Introducing the New Camera | DigitalBolex.com (http://www.digitalbolex.com/)

Forum on the camera:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-video-industry-news/506065-digital-bolex-nifty-geeks-hipsters-old-people-alike.html#post1720692

The digital bolex looks promising. Love the design and the specs. If it fulfills its promise it will be a winner. It sure is rocking at Kickstarter.

Phillip Bloom had some good things to say about the Panasonic AG AF100. Seems to have all the features we look for in a camcorder, takes Micro Four Thirds system lenses so anything that can be adapted to fit the Panasonic GH2 will fit and work on the AF100.

Price seems very reasonable and Bloom said the low light capability was very good.

I've been "trying out" MFT lenses on a "dinky" little Olympus Pen and love the low light capabilities with both the Lumix 14mm f2.5 and the 20mm f1.7. Both will fit the AF100 (look a little funny being so tiny). The camcorder itself may be a bit larger than what you had in mind but you might read some user reviews on it.

I think it would also integrate well with either the Panasonic GH2 or the about to be released Olympus OMD E-M5 (early testers are talking CLEAN ISO 6400 with it).

Thanks Glen & Bruce - very intriguing models!

I'm now shooting a short film on my FS100. It takes great video, but it records in AVCHD. It's fine for our use, but you can always attach an Atomos Ninja to get true 4:2:2 color at high bit rates, over 100mbps, if you like.

The FS100's Super-35 sensor is king in low light, and with an adapter, I can use any Alpha mount lens. There are also adapters for Nikon and Canon lenses, even a PL mount. Although my favorite lens is the E-mount Zeiss 24mm f1.8 prime I rented. Sweet! We shot scenes in the middle of some woods in the dead of night, with the only lighting being two 650s and a 150 ( I tried to mimic moon light). The camera with the Zeiss performed beautifully.

Should I shoot another film with this camera, I will probably see about acquiring a Ninja. My colorist recommended one for our present film, but alas, the budget said otherwise.

Regarding the new JVC HMQ10, it has a CMOS about 1/2" in size. With a relatively slow f2.8 lens, it probably won't be the best in low light. Still, 4K sure sounds good.

I just got a Panasonic AG AF100 and I'm ready for nearly anything. Check it out. The camera can be added to, and expanded in all sorts of ways. I have a thread elsewhere in this forum.