Hey guys! You guys were totally right about the 501HDV since the first time I popped by this forum early April/May last year. I've encountered my own share of the 501HDV problems on various paid shoots and now am ready to upgrade.

What was cool about my purchase of the 501HDV was that the seller included what he thought was completely spoilt and discontinued Manfrotto 540ART CF legs (100mm) with their speedy setup for free. I went to a local repair shop and repaired it for free such that it go to chest level well, and "above my head" with caution (one of the bottom legs can't really hold). I am short (165cm) so "chest level" has worked adequately for me.

Anyway, back to the main topic, I use DSLRs mainly, with the lightest being ~1.5 or 1.8kg (5D2 + 35 1.4L), and the heaviest being 4.5 to 5kg (5D2, 70-200 2.8 IS, rails, matte box, FF, LCDVF/Monitor). This year I will regularly rent the Panasonic AC160 or Canon XF300 for certain productions too, and they're about 3kg.

All of this falls in line with 3 heads and their respective legs: Vinten Vision Blue, Sachtler Cine DSLR, Sachtler FSB-6. I've omitted the Sachtler Ace because even though I'm an amateur kid, I still want to buy once and cry once, especially since I am being paid for my work.

From what I can tell, the Vinten VB head has almost a cult following here on the forums, with links to reviews from Tom Guilmette and the like. Continuous counter balance and drag. Is this really what I want / should have for a DSLR setup with multiple lenses, compared to stepped?

And comparing the bearings of the Sachtlers and Vinten VB... which ones are better?

And lastly, the legs. I know Pozi-lock Vintens are all the rage, but are Sachtler's tripod legs bad or not up to the Vinten's standard? I can't shell out for the speedlock system because my budget as a kid doesn't allow me to go there, so we're talking about basic 2MD systems.

My other concern is that I still want to keep the 501HDV for slider use. What can I do about plate compatibility should I get the Vinten VB? I do work as a photographer as well, so I'm thinking that I can put Really Right Stuff / Kirk clamps on the different video plates and only use the arca-swiss photo plate for transferring cameras between slider and sticks. The clamp should increase my weight a little more so a barebones naked camera can approach the 2kg needed for minimal balancing.

The Cine DSLR and Vinten VB are exceptionally close in price (diff of about a hundred), which is why I have to ask you pros about which would be a better system for me. I shoot short films and cover events such as stage concerts, and appreciate a lighter system. But above all, I want to buy the best I can afford so I don't have to upgrade again. I do not see myself rigging up anything more than 5kg.

Any help here would be great!
Zexun

Hi, Zexun...................

If you do a bit of trawling here in the Forum you'll find me (and many, many others) banging on on this subject ad nauseum, so it's all been said and done before, soooooo.............

May I suggest you fire off mails to:

Peter.Harman@VitecGroup.com and Barbara.Jaumann@VitecGroup.com

asking them if they can arrange test drives of your selected systems.

They are the Product managers for Vinten and Sachtler respectively, and should be able to sort you with test rigs in fairly short order (tho' the VB is especially hard to get hold of as it's selling faster than they can make them).

That should really give you your answer.

Do be aware that you're in a different league with this stuff, so any similarity between them and the Manfrotto is purely coincidental.

Good luck and keep us posted on progress.


CS

Zexun,

Regarding the interchangability of plates, this isn't a consideration that should stop you choosing a tripod. Neither Sachtler or Vinten are directly compatible with Manfrotto plates.

Just use an MN577 or similar adapter on top of your new tripod and you can keep using the same Manfrotto plates on all your cameras.

Thank you both for the replies!

I think I've decided to go with the Vinten Vision Blue system - their legs seem a lot better, and should I go with a manfrotto or kirk (photo) adapter for plate compatibility, I will always be able to hit the minimum counterbalance weight.

Just emailed Peter, and a local retailer told me that they have stock for it. Will probably check it out tomorrow! :)

Btw, anyone know if I can get a mid level spreader at the moment, and maybe at a later date, purchase a floor spreader to use sandbags?

The Vinten floor level spreader should be available separately, it's a standard Vinten Poziloc tripod:

Vinten | Floor Spreaders | www.vinten.com (http://www.vinten.com/en/product/floor-spreaders)

Check with Peter for the exact model, or maybe Chris will know!

Sweet. Thank you Mike! If it's a standard poziloc tripod and the sets differ only by spreaders, it means that floor and mid level spreaders can be attached and taken out when necessary yea?

Yup, that's the idea. The mid-level spreader can unclip quite easily. For the floor spreader, you remove the rubber "boots" on the tripod and strap the feet into the floor-level spreader instead.

I have to admit that I'm not a fan of floor-based spreaders for my work, so I can't confirm exactly how the Vinten one fits, I am going from a memory that is 4 years old from a previous Vinten tripod!

In theory, you could even fit one of the super-expensive (and really, really good) Spread-Loc mid spreaders which are quicker for set-up than the Vinten Vision Blue's mid spreader, but that's more expensive. I find the stock mid-level spreader to be OK for my use.

Zexun,

Regarding the interchangability of plates, this isn't a consideration that should stop you choosing a tripod. Neither Sachtler or Vinten are directly compatible with Manfrotto plates.

Just use an MN577 or similar adapter on top of your new tripod and you can keep using the same Manfrotto plates on all your cameras.

Mike, that's not true.

I use manfrotto 501pl plates with my Sachtler FSB6 head without any adapter.

Zoran,

Thanks for the correction. I wasn't aware of that, that's filed away for future reference!

The Vinten sticks all use the same pattern feet as the Manfrotto's, with some very minor differences.

Ergo, anything that will fit a Manfrotto (foot) will fit the Vinten, and vice versa, so if you already have a Manfrotto GLS you're good to go with the Vinten sticks.

If you don't have a GLS and can envisage prolonged use on a surface where one would be a better choice than the MLS (not too much comes to mind except floors of one sort or another) consider a dolly instead.

They have the major advantages of being easier to sandbag, and if portability is required, simply release the wheel locks and ......push! No lifting required!

Magic for "shoot & scoot" shooting at parties, disco's etc.

However, for most "real world" work, the MLS is the work horse of choice.

The one that comes with the VB is, from memory, about half a kilo lighter than the Spreadlock and probably $300 lighter in the wallet too. It works just fine.


CS

What a disappointment! I just tested two Vinten vision blue heads at the main local store ad they all had friction sticking problems on panning even at the lowest drag arrows setting. And it was noisy like the plates were scraping against each other! I really wished I could buy it but it seems like I'll never have it.

Maybe the cine dslr has to do.

Hi, Zexun...........

Sorry you had a less than splendid experience, but a couple of points to consider.

1. All Vinten heads are designed to have a considerable amount of both pan and tilt drag, even at zero setting of the respective dials, that's just the way they're made.

Coming from almost anything else and having a brief play is going to seem totally "you what?", but I can assure you, in the long run (give it a week or two) you won't even notice, and it will steady both your pans and tilts amazingly.

This IS a deliberate design feature and NOT a fault.

2. This one has me a bit worried. Grinding plates is NOT what Vinten do.

I have mailed Peter at Vinten and informed him of this last one, I'll let him answer this, as I simply cannot.

I do, however, wonder whether someone has got hold of some "reject" Vinten heads and is flogging them as the "real deal" when they were destined for the tip, OR even trying to sell complete replica "knock offs" that aren't Vinten in the slightest. It does make me wonder just what sticks were under those heads you did try - were they really Vinten as well?


This has me totally flumoxed, I have to say.


CS

Just to check, one thing...............

Zexun, you DID have the Clamp Knob properly tightened, didn't you?

I only ask, as the only rational explanation I can come up with, if it was REAL Vinten kit, was the clamp knob not being done up correctly. allowing the entire head, half ball and all, to revolve about the tripod receiver.

The sound wouldn't have been pleasant, but would have been down to "Operator Error" if so.

Gotta check, and I'd do the same whether it was Sachtler, Manfrotto, Gitzo or anything else, 'cos this IS NOT how they make their gear.


CS

Hi Zexun, can you tell me where you tested these heads please and I will have our sales manager go check them out. I’m assuming they were in Singapore?

I’m extremely surprised that they felt this way. Our quality management systems are extremely rigorous and nothing like this would ever get passed the final checks. Even a beaten up head will feel good, so I’m surprised to say the least.

Fact is, if the heads are in a public store demo area, it’s likely that a few people will have operated the heads with the brakes on and this will damage the head if it’s done repeatedly. Secondly, the head needs to be tested with a camera attached as (1) you’ll never get a true feel of the balanced head and therefore unable to assess its performance correctly and (2) for the head to perform to specification, the pan bearing needs to be loaded by having the camera attached. Unloaded, the bearing may rumble giving the impression that it’s faulty – it isn’t at all.

Were these heads loaded with a Camera Zexun? If so, what was it please?

Hello Chris,


1. All Vinten heads are designed to have a considerable amount of both pan and tilt drag, even at zero setting of the respective dials, that's just the way they're made.

Coming from almost anything else and having a brief play is going to seem totally "you what?", but I can assure you, in the long run (give it a week or two) you won't even notice, and it will steady both your pans and tilts amazingly.

This IS a deliberate design feature and NOT a fault.

This makes sense, as I don't really use drag-free anyway, but there are times when I would like to do a straight up whip pan and I'm afraid that the drag might interfere i.e. have a lot of backlash and then torquing the entire tripod legs.



2. This one has me a bit worried. Grinding plates is NOT what Vinten do.

I have mailed Peter at Vinten and informed him of this last one, I'll let him answer this, as I simply cannot.

I do, however, wonder whether someone has got hold of some "reject" Vinten heads and is flogging them as the "real deal" when they were destined for the tip, OR even trying to sell complete replica "knock offs" that aren't Vinten in the slightest. It does make me wonder just what sticks were under those heads you did try - were they really Vinten as well?


This has me totally flumoxed, I have to say.

Yes, I specifically asked to have a look at their mid and ground level spreader systems. They took it out of new boxes (with tape) and the distinct vinten blue bag was seen. Legs were firm and well made with vinten brand on them. I can only assume that is the pozilock system.

Just to check, one thing...............

Zexun, you DID have the Clamp Knob properly tightened, didn't you?


Yeap, that's the first thing I checked. The manager or person helping me noticed the issue as well (physical uneven sticking). We both clamped down the bowl normally, tested, clamped down hard, retested, and it was still there. I took out the head and panned the head while gripping the half bowl and could feel the uneven resistance.

I just got back home from the store (My previous response was written on the road) and tried my 501HDV, and I can confirm that my 501HDV pans quieter and smoother. Very odd indeed.


Hi Zexun, can you tell me where you tested these heads please and I will have our sales manager go check them out. I’m assuming they were in Singapore?

I tested them at Expandore, known as one of Singapore's most reliable video stores. I believe the person helping me who noticed the issue as well was Winston if I'm not wrong.


Hello Peter,


Fact is, if the heads are in a public store demo area, it’s likely that a few people will have operated the heads with the brakes on and this will damage the head if it’s done repeatedly. Secondly, the head needs to be tested with a camera attached as (1) you’ll never get a true feel of the balanced head and therefore unable to assess its performance correctly and (2) for the head to perform to specification, the pan bearing needs to be loaded by having the camera attached. Unloaded, the bearing may rumble giving the impression that it’s faulty – it isn’t at all.

Were these heads loaded with a Camera Zexun? If so, what was it please?


They were new tripod systems fresh out of cardboard boxes taken from the store, and fresh from the blue bag like I said earlier.

What was used on the head was the following 3 setups:

1) 5D2, Nikon 55mm 2.8 macro, rode videomic pro, rails. Roughly 2.5kg with high center of balance.
2) 5D2, 70-200 2.8L IS, videomic pro. Roughly 2.5kg, low center of balance.
3) same as #2 but with rails, about 3.5kg, high center of balance.

Audible noises and rough sticking could be heard/felt with or without anything attached. I tested a Miller Compass 12 they had there as well, and there wasn't any issue.


Honestly, just a few minutes before I found the issues, I thought I had hit the jackpot with the Vinten VB. Counterbalancing was easier than I thought, and a lot more precise with the Perfect Balance. Tilting up and down at 200mm with the drag set at 8 was like a dream come true. Then I panned. Yup.

I've got a wedding job in 10 days and I'm lost on what I should do now.

Edit: By the way, I really appreciate both your input, Chris and Peter. Great assistance indeed!

Well, no need for me to tell the assembled that Peter and Vinten are all over this like a rash, and we're all sitting with bated breath, waiting to hear exactly what is going on.

I have no doubt there's more than a couple of VB owners going "What the f*$k" as they read this thread too.

Peter would have been onto it even faster, but his automatic "new post" notifications from DVinfo have been on the fritz since Christmas (he had this thread tagged for that very reason) and that still hasn't been resolved, as far as I am aware.

Given that he has to sleep sometime, I'm not expecting a response from him for another few hours at the earliest (current: 17.37 hrs NZ time; 12.37 Singapore: 04.37 London).

As I am still as clueless as everybody else as to what is going on, I shan't bother to speculate, suffice it to say, the alarm bells are ringing everywhere.

Appologies for the "no news there, then" post, but it's better than total silence.

Peter will, I'm sure, be back in a few hours, with news and a strategy.


CS

It's definitely not the Vinten Experience that I'm familiar with. I was out in the pi**ing rain all day on Sunday and things were falling apart left right and centre (mainly my humour and sanity), but throughout it all I was getting beautiful smooth pans and tilts with the VB.

Vinten's quality control is pretty stringent, so I wouldn't be surprised if something had happened to these tripods after they left the factor. (Are you sure they're Vision Blue tripods, and not the older, Manfrotto-based models? Dumb question, I know...)

The worst thing I can say about the VB is that there is no "zero" drag setting. This isn't a problem for me though, the head and legs are perfect in every respect.

I got word from the retail store that Peter did ask someone locally to contact the store, and they're sending someone over to look at the affected heads. I also got word that they ordered a Sachtler Cine DSLR for me to test with no obligations as I had expressed interest between the Vinten VB and the Sachtler CineDSLR.

Peter has undoubtedly been very helpful, going so far as to suggest that I request for a loaner tripod for my upcoming shoot even though I haven't firmly decided on purchasing any Vinten product yet. Hope to hear more from the sales rep / store after they meet tomorrow!

@ Chris S : You've had the chance to use both systems, right?

@ Mike B: I think I'd be able to tell the difference between a supposedly great Perfect Counterbalance head and a re-shelled Manfrotto / ProTouch ;) Yeah the lack of a zero drag setting is something I realised too, but honestly, I doubt I'd ever be using it without drag anyway! The only concern for me right now in terms of design is the angles (with Sachtler's CineDSLR doing full tilts at 5kg counterbalanced), assuming my experience was only due to defective units.

Yep, not only tried, but have, both systems, sort of (I use the "have" in the loosest sense of the word, the Cine/ FSB 6 system actually belongs to Sachtler. Hmm, wonder if they want it back sometime?).

What can I tell you?

Great head. Excellent bearings. Wonderfull snap load. Terrific ergonomics. Terrible drag settings (3 + OFF, and OFF means OFF) and stepped CB adjustments.

Swings and roundabouts, as they say in English.

So, yes, I've had a chance to use both systems, as that was the question.

Anything else, just ask.

More, as and when.


CS

Haha, I've always wondered when if you would ever complete your Sachtler reviews like you've done for the other brands ;) Been a reader for a long time!

Thanks for the info on the CineDSLR :) The store owner I talked to recommended them because, like they all say, "it performs like a Sachtler" so surely they're doing something right. Just a matter of whether it's true for DSLRs.

Haha, I've always wondered when if you would ever complete your Sachtler reviews like you've done for the other brands ;) .

Ssssh, don't tell anyone, but I loathed the sticks, and Babs will kill me (she's one dangerous lady is Babs) if I give her any more grief, so it's gone "into hiding", which is what I'll have to do if that review ever sees the light of day.

The DSLR is a slightly cut down version of the FSB 6, from memory, though up from the FSB 4, apart from that, it's identical.

Nice kit.

"Nobody ever got fired for buying Sachtler" . Quote: Chris Soucy (unless someone thought of it first?)


CS

Oh what a shame. Seems like Vinten does get most of the things right the way you want them.

If I may ask, what makes a good tripod good? Like for example, how do you usually test for wind-up of a tripod? The reason I ask is because I have a 100mm Manfrotto CF here called the 540ART for proper ENG cameras (you tried to help me find the parts diagram to no avail last year, but I got it repaired). For real sturdiness sake and assuming portability isn't a problem, which would be better?

Talked to my local Vitec group contact and he said he still has yet to look into the issue by asking for tripods back. He said he had no demo Vinten Vision Blue tripods or heads to loan out too. Bummer!

I've attached 4 images of a current rig that balances perfectly with my 501HDV at about 2.3 - 2.4kg. The battery of the LCD monitor does not block the sliding plate at all.

It's definitely not a safe rig, especially for the hotshoe. But there's no other way I can get it the way I want it to work for a 501HDV in case I can't upgrade to the Vinten VB or similar in time for my shoot... so maybe an hour of using it like that won't hurt?

Chris,

I'm in a similar situation as the OP. I have a Manfrotto 503 head on 520 legs with GLS and am considering upgrading at least the head to a Sachtler FSB6 or a Vinten Blue, but maybe also get new legs.

The camera, with all accessories like shotgun, on-camera light, shoulder rig, wireless receiver, cables etc. comes out at around 5.7 kg (Canon XF300) fully loaded.

While talking to the Dutch representative, he told me the FSB6 from Sachtler was more maintenance proof and required less service than the Vinten Blue head, especially when used in tropical environments. (Hard to imagine with the freezing cold here)

What do you think about the remarks of the Dutch representative and do you have any suggestions to add to everything said above?

I'm not Chris, but I think that I'd first strip down the rig if you want to use it on a VB - it's a 5kg max payload head with limited tilting at max (or getting close to max) counterbalance settings.

Hmm, where to start?

Harm first, I guess.

Ah, the Manfrotto 503/ 520 combo. Boy, does that take me back a ways.

That is exactly where I started my journey into the mysteries of proper camera support, about 6 years ago, when I first parked my brand spanking new Canon XH A1 HDV camcorder on what had been my faithfull SD support for about 5 years.

Shot about 20 seconds of video and fired it up to my (also new) 46" Full HD Sony, and felt the blood drain into my shoes.

To paraphrase that immortal line from Jaws, I knew in that 20 seconds "we're gonna need a bigger camera support".

Tried the incremental approach, with a Vinten Vision 3 "insert spring and pray" head. Still crap and the camera wouldn't CB, either.

This, incidently is the point where Peter Harman and I first crossed paths, as he fired a handfull of springs to me to try (free, too!). I knew right then that Vinten and I were going to get on famously.

In the same shipment from B&H as the head was a set of Manfrotto 528XB's to park under my Hague jib.

Tried the V 3 on those, now that was a serious improvement, pity I could barely lift the combo and run'ngun was not even an option.

I had got the camera to CB by now, with a ME67 shotgun up high and a wireless receiver, perfect, though I had by then discovered the limitations that Vinten 3 lobed clamp knob and massive clamp cup imposed on head adjustment with both tripods.

To cut a long story, my next sticks purchase was a set of Vinten FiberTec's, the top of the line CF nested I beams, beautifull and still are, even if they did damn near bankrupt me. Strongest set of sticks I have ever used, by a country mile.

The V 3 has pretty well been retired, replaced by a V 3 AS, and a little way down the track joined by a VB system complete.

So, to Harms little dilema.

OK, head. I think that weight/ COG will overwhelm a VB, sail straight over the head (sorry!) of a V 3 AS, putting you in V 5 AS territory

Now you're talking some serious money, as I know that head won't play nice with a set of 520's, and a serious Vinten set of sticks will be required. Something like this:

Vinten V5AS-AP2M Vision Pozi-Loc Aluminum Tripod V5AS-AP2M B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/615575-REG/Vinten_V5AS_AP2M_V5AS_AP2M_Vision_Pozi_Loc_Aluminum.htmll)

As you can see, about this point is where you have to seriously evaluate the Vinten/ Sachtler options.

If I was in your boots, I'd fire a mail to both Barbara.Jaumann@VitecGroup.com (for Sachtler) and Peter.Harman@VitecGroup.com (for Vinten) and ask

a) What system they think is the most likely to work with your rig, and

b) For a test drive of what they think is appropriate.

I, personally think it's going to be a bit of a toss up between a FSB 6 and a FSB 8 Sachtler head, depending on the exact CB graph of each, though I'm pretty sure a V 5 AS is going to be the Vinten option.

As I said, you're talking serious money, whichever way you go.

Now, as for "the Dutch representative" (you didn't say of what) comments, I have NEVER heard of either a Sachtler or Vinten head of any description requiring any sort of maintenance within their expected life spans if used correctly and not subject to physical abuse, no matter what weather conditions they're used in.

IMHO, it's complete piffle, but maybe Barbara or Peter can tell us otherwise.

"War and Peace" volume VII ends.


CS

Chris,

Thank you so much for the speedy reply and the overwhelming amount of info. Fantastic. I'll read it with more attention the second time I go through it all, but I think you have shown me the way to go.

Yes, this current setup dates back to the early 2000's when I used it with a Sony VX2000 and PD150.

Not that anyone should remind me, but I'm getting old, when I remember those years.

OTOH, it shows that tripods and heads generally outlast several generations of cameras...

Thanks again for your speedy reply. BTW, did you have your breakfast already or did I mess that up?

Nah, breakfast, or what passes for it here - three mugs of strong coffee and more cigarettes than I care to admit to, well and truly had before I hit DVinfo!


CS

This is one alternative to your suggestion, right?

Vinten V5AS-CP2M Vision Pozi-Loc Carbon Fiber Tripod V5AS-CP2M

Zexun, your turn.

how do you usually test for wind-up of a tripod?

Very good question.

The easiest way, for the average shooter, is to load up an HD camera on it, set the zoom to maximum focal lenght, set the pan drag to maximum, lock the tilt horizontal, run video and pan left and let go the pan bar, pan right and let go the pan bar, repeat about 4 or 5 times.

Fire that video into a decent full HD set and watch what happens at the end of every pan.

The long focal length on the lens magnifies any pull back dramatically (note: a Manfrotto 501/503 will display goo sticktion pull back on top of any tripod unwind).

This is all very well and good, but unless you have a benchmark to compare it too, hard to say if it's good, bad or indifferent.

If you meant "you" as in ME, I have a purpose built aluminium "U" channel bar 1 metre long, with a Manfrotto 75 half ball base screwed into a chunky aluminium block welded dead centre.

I mount that into the tripod in question using the inbuilt level to ensure it is perfectly horizontal, make sure that clamp knob is REAL tight, put concrete blocks on the feet/ spreader, attach a pulley system to one end of the bar onto which I can load measured weights and park a laser pointer into a special holder at the other end of the bar.

The laser is set dead centre on a graduated target about 23 metres away, and it's deflection is measured as I add 100 gram weights up to about 1 kilo.

I do that for every tripod I test, soon sorts the wheat from the chaff, but is exceedingly time consuming, and, in practise, one heck of a lot of buggering about.

Don't try this at home, boys and girls, unless you're terminally anal.


CS

Whoops, I didn't answer this bit.............

If I may ask, what makes a good tripod good?

Another good question.

A more complicated answer than you'd think.

At the end of the day, a compromise between two absolutes.

Rigidity, and it's pal, weight. Everyone is after the first but does NOT want the latter, which is a bit of a bugger as more weight usually (but not always) means better rigidity.

However, just to save on another "War and Peace" volume, it really comes down to the thickness of your wallet, how much weight you're prepared to hump around and how high or low your pain threshold is with wobbly HD images.

There are people here who swear by support gear I wouldn't even give house room to, quite frankly, 'cos I've tried it and think it total rubbish.

I have a pain threshold so low my support gear has cost me a fortune and weighs a ton, but heck, there's no wobbly HD images (unless you're stricken by the limitations below, that is).

Sooo, you'll know if it's a good tripod if you use it and don't wince at the result on that big screen.

But, you know something?

For a standard semi pro and even pro camcorder and support system, it doesn't matter how good the tripod and head are, you're still, God help us, limited by that poxy 1/4" X 20 screw (all 10 cents worth) which connects your X thousand buck support to your X thousand buck camcorder.

Disgracefull, no other word I can use.

Why on earth that hangover from the American Civil War is still the connector of choice for the latest camera supports and HD camcorders is a mystery I will probably never get to the bottom of.


CS

Didn't understand the second part of that "tripod testing" post, but thanks for sharing your methodology anyway! Very true about a tripod being "good enough for the specific end user" thinking there.

You make a good point about the 1/4" and 3/8" threads, but since the entire industry of us mere mortals with average wallets seem to be doing fine with them, it probably means that there isn't much else to be changed I guess? It is after all the de-facto standard since forever.

-----

Regarding the Vinten VB, I just got a call from the local Vitec contact who checked it out with the store, and quite surprisingly he said he couldn't find anything wrong with it. He said he'll bring the tripod back to the head office and said he would invit me to retest it with his engineers around.

I'm actually quite disappointed with the response because it's not that hard to actually figure out that the bearings / smoothness of the VBs i tested weren't even close to that of my 501HDV due to the scraping sound / vibrations that I felt. Very peculiar indeed.

I will continually update this thread with regards to the retest, should I actually be requested back in a few hours.

Boy, do I want to hear how this goes, 'cos I'm just totally at a loss as to what is going on, and heard nothing from anywhere else on the subject.

Vitec have engineers in Singapore? Amazing. Wonder what they do.

I'll stay tuned for the next exciting episode.


CS

Didn't understand the second part of that "tripod testing" post.

Not suprised, it was exceedingly complicated.

The bottom line was that for the multi system review I was doing, "I think" wasn't going to cut it, real empirical figures for rotational rigidity had to be produced, and they had to be repeatable and reflect each systems actual ability to withstand windup.

[That there is no "standard" for this test (as far as I'm aware), meant "make it up as you go"]

The deflection of the laser spot, in centimetres, was deducted from 20 to give every system a score. The higher the score, the less they wound up.

All of that data, plus anything else relevant to the four systems (which was one heck of a lot) was compiled into one pretty large database, multi coloured graphs, detailed tables and all, and fired off to Chris Hurd for publication and..........dissapeared without trace.

I must chase him up on that, as it took two of us weeks to compile, and was one heck of a piece of work.

Bit depressing, actually.

I'm sure it will see the light of day sometime soon.


CS

Okay I went to inspect the head again at the local Vitec HQ after they tinkered around with it. The technician opened it up and did acknowledge that there was an issue. There were two components that could affect it, and it was going to be either the drag or the bearings.

The technician did loosen the bearings which were deemed too tight, and then put it back together. I arrived soon after and tested it with a friend. The same problem was there, but with a little less noise. There was a grinding effect when panning. Dialling in more drag did nothing to the effect, for better or worse.

This time however, I wanted to also test the tripod legs, not that there was anything wrong with them. They're great. What I realised, though, was that with my left hand lightly touching the legs, I could feel the grinding was more intense than when just using the pan bar to explain.

It was too bad that they didn't have any spare blue demo units around. They did have a vision 3 non a s around and I tested it- none of such issues. Tried the pro touch 6, a rehoused Manfrotto. No issues.

This definitely shows that the heads I tested weren't of the same QC as the others in the Vinten line. For the engineer to actually say that the bearings were a little tight right out of the box clearly shows that there might've been an oversight or carelessness in calibration of the assembly of the blue heads for the batch I'm testing. These things do happen and I'm aware of it - we are all human.

What I have to do is give credit where credit is due. Peter Harman and Derrick Ng of Vitec group were exceptionally helpful in trying to get to the bottom of the issue. Their customer service is top notch and the follow up given was extraordinary. I am very impressed by this, and should I get a cine dslr from sachtler or vinten vision blue once this spectacle is over, I have no doubts that Vitec is a professional company. And if you're buying anything from Singapore, the service from Expandore by Winston was great as well - He actually bought a Sachtler Cine DSLR tripod setup with no obligations of purchase for my testing.


Back to the subject of the thread, this is my second time using Perfect Counterbalance and I'm really liking it. It clearly is more precise than stepped Sachtlers. Whether or not this is the tripod head for me still depends on how I think I'll use the tripod, especially in the next few months. I have yet to actually test a Sachtler head and legs, but my impressions of the quality of engineering (assuming this is a one-batch-off case) for Vintens are high.

Zexun

Thanks, Zexun.

Exceedingly informative post, glad to have heard "the next exciting episode".

None of which solves your short term problem, I'm aware.

I think I'm going to have to await whatever news might be coming from Peter Harman about just what happens from here with the VB's.

Questions like what, exactly, is the problem, how extensive is it and why didn't QC pick it up, are all going through my head, and no doubt quite a few heads at Vinten as well.

Doesn't look like the dearth of VB's out there is going to be solved any time soon, that's for sure, and is probably going to get worse, if this has affected an entire production run or significant part thereof.

Curious though:

I arrived soon after and tested it with a friend.

Did you think to test it with your camera too? (Sorry, it's just that the mental picture conjoured up by that sentence is utterly hilarious, sick sense of humour).

I'm assuming yes, as you had good things to say about the CVCB, though it could have been an exceedingly small friend.

Keep smiling Zexun, we'll get you through this.

Thanks again for the very informative and positive (in most respects) update.

Regards,


CS

Haha, your humour is intriguing. My friend isn't a 3kg midget!

Yeap, I tested it the second time with many different set ups. I also realised that my current rails rig (which I don't use a lot, but might in the future) elevates the camera up too much such that the COG isn't anywhere near 55mm (probably near 100mm) in which case a 3AS would be better. But seeing how rigs can be configured for much less than actually upgrading a VB to a 3AS, I think I'll go that route should I get a Vinten.

I've yet to see if the Cine DSLR or FSB-6 will give me much of a difference in terms of counter balance limits.

It was also quite an eye opener to see their repair and testing facility, with all manner of heads and pedestals there. I saw an O'conner head which, mechanically, looked like an intricate piece of art!

As for the QC or potential issues with other VBs, no one would know. I'm sure even Peter Harman himself can't really have omniscience as far as human error is concerned.

By the way Chris, I was given the Sachtler and Vinten catalogue and the first name I seemed to spot on the VB page was you!

Cheers,
Zexun

Hmm, yeah, that was a blooper I really could have done without, though it happened innocently enough.

I had had "some input" (let's leave it at that) on the VB, no secrets there, pretty well known.

However, things got a bit rushed due to publication/ show dates and Vinten were scrambling for quotes, heck, they would have asked Punxsutawney Phil, if he'd been available (by the time they'd finished shooting "Groundhog Day", he was a one rodent masterclass in camera support).

He wasn't taking calls, it being mid winter, and I just happened to be the muggins at the wrong end of the mail system.

C'est la vie.

You definately need to try the Sachtlers, no two ways about it.

Remind me, where are you with them, is Barbara Jaumann on the case or not?

If not, fire a mail to Barbara.Jaumann@VitecGroup.com and get her on it, she's as hot a Peter Harman with this stuff.

I'll tell you one thing, Zexun (which I think you've already figured out for yourself), there ain't too many companies on the planet that can and will dish up this sort of customer support.

I personally had NEVER seen anything like it till I "met" Peter and Barbara, they are a whole diferent planet away from every other company I've ever dealt with.

You landed on your feet with this one, friend.

Regards,

Punxsutawney Phils Stand In

AKA CS

I haven't actually contacted Barbara yet because I've been told by the local camera store and local vinten hq that they don't even have any sachtlers available. I've got a contact at a camera rental store and I can probably test a Sachtler FSB-6 2MD next week. Same legs, similarly specced head to the Cine DSLR 2MD with a bit more counterbalancing "strength".

Just that I'm pretty sure I'm stuck with a screwed up 501HDV with a pan bar that's coming loose for my two shoots next week, unless Peter Harman or Derrick from the local Vitec group can arrange something...

I also really appreciate the fact that this was one of the first companies that didn't treat me like a kid even though I'm just 19. Seems like so many people in the industry think that being young means being either cheapskate or unknowledgeable. Not them though.

Zexun

Mike, that's not true.

I use manfrotto 501pl plates with my Sachtler FSB6 head without any adapter.Same here with the FSB4.

Vinten is bringing in a demo unit for the Vinten Vision Blue to compare with the local affected heads.

Also, anyone know the height/cog/weight specs of a Vinten Vision 3 (non AS) with number 4kg brown spring?

MY answer is no, what little specs there ever were, dissapeared when the V3 was discontinued, and even then, they were pretty flimsy, because of the COG thing (camera's hadn't really started their startling descent in the weight/ COG stakes at that point).

Try it, Zexun and see how you go, best I can suggest, but that's one heck of a spring, think I have one, and it launches anything I'm using (or WAS, they've got lighter since then) into low earth orbit.

If the worst comes to the worst, use a lower rated spring than required for your kit, and use tilt drag to keep it under control.

Hopefully they'll get the testers in time and you can use that.

Should have given Barbara a call, you would have had a Sachtler there by now, I'm not joking, just like Peter, she doesn't muck about.

Although, re - reading your post, at that point in time, all the COG heights were 125mm, you can see where the problems start with todays long, low camera systems?

Keep us posted.


CS

Ah. So the traditional "weight limits" are all referring to 125mm and up?

Like what I messaged you (while you were replying this thread, i'm sorry), I can have a spring number 2 attached. It says there it'll be a 2kg for 125mm COG. Roughly translated to DSLR terms, probably means it'll be about 2.5kg with my low COG setup - which is exactly what my 501HDV is doing at the moment.

Worth a shot, maybe? The VB won't come in on time for my two assignments this week.

Yeah I probably should've contacted Barbara about it. Still haven't tested the FSB-6 from the local rental house yet though, I haven't had the time!

Zexun

Got your mail (hey, even I have to eat sometime!), if they offer you a V 3, grab every spring they have and go for it, see how you get on.

With the low COG gear you have, who knows what's going to work, if anything. It's going to be a complete punt.

A #1 springs (er, sorry!) to mind, if they have one, else simply leave the spring out entirely, make sure it's balanced, set the tilt drag to hold it, and you still have Vinten LF drag in your favour.

Else load it with anything you can think of to give it some more weight up top, anything, heck, fill your sock with gravel and drape it over the camera, if you have to.

I'm not joking BTW, just in case anyone was thinking of having a laugh.

Good luck.


CS

No worries mate, you aren't obligated to reply fast at all!

I've gotten my dad to try to get a proper cheeseplate done up with 1/4" thread holes so I can mount my quick releases and what naught onto it. Helps increase the weight and raise the CG.

Currently it's pretty balanced on my 501HDV so here's hoping a Vision 3 will work just like that.

When you said......

"I've gotten my dad to try to get a proper cheeseplate done up with 1/4" thread holes so I can mount my quick releases and what naught onto it"

did you mean your Dad made it?

If that photo with the plate of (powder coated?) steel Swiss cheese under the cam is any indication, he's gotta be a bit of a whizz kid in the workshop.

H'mm, wonder if he wants a job?

Don't worry, just thinking aloud, but if he actually made that, I'm really impressed, because it looks like a real Pro piece of kit.

Keep us posted.


CS

Chris,

I have had replies to my question, both from Barbara and Peter. Like you said, they are very dedicated and willing to help.

Let me start with a remark Peter made:

I have to disagree with what your dealer has told you, implying that because of the temperature, that Vinten products “require more servicing”, this simply isn’t true. Yes, the Sachtler product has a wider temperature range than the Vision blue all the way up to Vision 10AS, all of which use the LF drag system, but that’s where it stops. Both brands have pros and cons including the drag system performance.

I think that based on all your recommendations (Barbara, Peter and yourself) I will have to contact the local dealer and arrange testing two tripod systems that I (of course with your help) found at B&H:

Vinten V5AS-CP2M Vision Pozi-Loc Carbon Fiber Tripod V5AS-CP2M

Sachtler 0450 FSB-6T Head with 75CF Tripod and Mid-Level 0450

Both reflect the suggestions Barbara and Peter gave and that would be OK for my rig. But also they have pro's and con's as I understand it. Just giving my initial perception of one versus the other option:

Sachtler pro's: Hugely more attractive price, better temperature range, easy setup with one lever per leg.
Sachtler con's: 2:1:1 legs and stepped drag system.

Vinten pro's: 2:2:1 legs and continuous drag system and a larger payload.
Vinten con's: Very expensive and lesser temperature range.

Now if I plan to film two events, just as an example to help me decide the relevancy of the temperature range versus the drag system, but also indicative of the wide range of situations:

1. St. Maarten the Heineken Regatta on the beach in 30 degree C temperatures in sunny weather (making the effective temps much higher) with very zoomed in shots of the racing boats, and

2. Lauberhorn downhill in Wengen around the Canadian Corner on the ski slope in -15 degree C temperatures with fast pans to follow the racers.

Based on the above and taking into consideration where I'm coming from and that I'm not a professional, but a mere hobbyist, my initial feeling is that Sachtler is the more attractive deal. Of course you get what you pay for, but the price difference is huge. Hard to tell without testing them both, but what is your gut feeling in this situation?

@ Chris: No, those cheeseplates were unscrewed from a Gini rig off ebay. They're a two-piece though, so it's not exactly very friendly to the plates if I want them to be anti-twist. Probably will get my dad to just do a simple stainless steel piece.


Anyway guys, big update in terms of experiences.

Tried the Sachtler FSB-6 and FSB-8 tripods on 75mm 2-stage sticks. Fiddly. Not stable enough for me i'm afraid! Heads were great, but like expected, I prefer perfect balance.

I went back to Vitec SG today and they loaned me a Vinten Vision 3as with #1 and #2 screws and a grey pozi-loc tripod with (ugh) ground spreader. I'll be using the #2 screw (2kg @ 125mm COG) for the setup I've attached below.

On testing the head in my quiet bedroom, I could definitely hear the bearings, but the jerkiness wasn't there at all, much different than the Vision Blue heads in question. I'll definitely have a good shoot tomorrow!


@ Harm: Seems like you'll be traveling a lot. Perhaps the Sachtler might indeed be a better idea, even though the legs aren't what I want them to be. Like I said, I tried the FSB-6T head today and it was good but.. the aluminum legs don't instill confidence.

Cheers,
Zexun

Harm, you first.

OK, lets tackle this temperature thing head on (sorry!).

I simply can't find the operating temperature range for Vinten LF drag systems anywhere, so I will have to base my answer (loosely) on the TF range of -40C to +60C, let's say the LF is only -25C to +50C, total guess, OK?

Sachtler has a wider range than Vinten (admitted by Peter), so can handle even more extremes.

Now, first and formost, does anybody know a camera manufacturer who will warrant their cameras to such extremes? Nope, didn't think we'd have too many takers on that one.

Second, real world scanario: You're out in -25C, standing behind a tripod, panning and tilting.

I'm pretty sure you're going to pack up before either head does. Whils the head is actually being used, you could probably exceed the max and min temps by another 20C and still have them function fine, you won't.

You want to have a problem with either head?

Take them off the sticks, wind up the drag to max, open the window and throw 'em out into the snow at -30C and leave them there overnight.

Now you have a problem with the heads. Same goes for high temps, you'll melt before the heads will.

Take it off the table as a bargaining chip, it's like comparing the relative merits of the ash trays in a Bently and a Rolls Royce.

OK, the two proposed systems, and you're in trouble already.

Those Sachtler 2:1:1 sticks will drive you NUTS!

DON'T take my word for it, try them and give them a hammering, shoot the video and watch it, if you're happy with it fine, but .........that's the whole point of test drives.

Bump the Sachtler offering up to a decent 2:2:1 set and the price differential won't look like quite such a huge chasm and you're now comparing apples with apples.

However, let's learn to crawl before we attemp the marathon, try both the proposed systems and tell us what YOU think of their relative merits, at the end of the day this system is being tailored for you, and you only.

Whatever you end up with has to tick as many (of your) boxes as possible and certainly more than the opposition.

How's that for a gut feeling?


CS

I'm hoping that Sachtler will soon offer their Ace head separately from the sticks. The head looks like a winner. Yes, it lacks side mounting and continuous controls like the Vinten 3AS that we have here at work, but for the money, it could be very nice for lightweight cameras. That said, I have no interest in 2-1-1 sticks. I've got a 2-2 battleship with a 100mm cup that I'd be happy to re-use (even if I'm not so happy when I lug it around.)

Personally, I've test driven enough tripods in general to know that 2-1-1 is off the table. I can't wait until NAB to do more test drives. :)