Hi there,
any advice on wich external rec works better with the sony fs100. i looked at the atmos ninja, aja & nano. the ninja is winning pricewise. but will like some advice from does who have any of this units before i place an order.

thanks in advance!
Pedro

That discussion is occurring in multiple threads around this forum right now. Not just for the FS100 but which one in general is best. Best is a very subjective term.

One bit of info that I was recently made aware of is the PIX240 is the only recorder that can currently read HDMI timecode from the FS100. That may or may not be of interest to you but if it is there is no other choice.

i question the need for an external recorder.

some folks are imagining that since the fs100 is 4:2:0 as recorded internally, that an external recorder is a necessity.

the sony version of avchd is a very robust and winning codec.

i suggest folks shoot and edit with avchd and then see what happens rather than assume an external recorder is mandatory.

ymmv

be well.

rob
smalltalk productions

I agree, although I have an external recorder (HyperDeck Shuttle) and see no difference in the quality of the image

I can see a need for an external recorder if you want to use the FS100 for broadcast duties, such as Discovery HD and the BBC HD. From what I understand, the AVCHD codec isn't accepted by high end broadcast outlets. It's fine for local broadcasts, as I've shot several commercials for the local affiliates.

If anyone has used their FS100 with just the internal codec for a big broadcast outlet - ESPN, Discovery, National Geographic, BBC, etc. - please let us know.

I'm not critisizing the AVCHD codec, but we don't set the standards for broadcasting.

I recently shot several days of interviews and broll for a European customer. The material is for use on a web site, and possibly TV down the road (though not likely). I questioned the client on why he needed pro res 4:2:2, since
1- The avchd code from the FS100 looks so good, and
2- He'd never see the difference.

He insisted, and I rented a Ki Pro Mini from Abel Cine in New York. The KPM was fairly easy to use, once I got some help from Abel Cine. There are very few settings that need to be changed, once you get it set up. Also keep in mind that the KPM records Pro Res 4:2:2 , which is ready to drag right into FCP. I posted a question about it's use with windows (CS5), and got a reply from Joe Thorn , from Aja. The thread is on the Aja forum here at dvinfo.

While on the subject, I wanted to give a shot out to the people at Abel Cine in NYC. The main person I dealt with was Alana Casner, and she was incredibly help full. She patiently answered my questions over a several day period, and got everything to me on time. After I received the KPM, I had menu confusion, an needed help right away. I tried their emergency support number at night, and got a call back quickly from Mike, the owner. The next day, I needed some formatting help, and spoke to David, who was also very helpful. My entire eperience with Abel was very positive, and I would use them again, and highly recommend them to anyone else.
The KPM worked well, and Abel provided a complete rig, so that I was able to mount it on the back of my rails and power it with an Anton Bauer battery. The KPM also requires fast CF cards.
Bruce Yarock
Yarock Productions
Pembroke Pines Fl.

Bruce, how about the timecode? Did the Aja record that data?

I know it keeps coming up all the time on virtually all forums but I've found that the broadcast minimum of 50Mbps is a bit of a red herring to be honest. It only really applies if you are contributing the bulk of the footage for a HD production as there are always exceptions and allowances for using a sometimes sizable % of footage that does not meet those requirements. I've not actually had footage from the FS100 used yet as I've had it less than a month, but I've had HDSLR footage used plenty of times and that never meets the broadcast requirements for all kinds of reasons not just the bit rate!

Cheers, Simon

Glen,
I'm not sure becuase I had so much going on and the client didn't need it. If you post that question on the Aja Ki Pro forum here, you'll get an answer pretty quick, probably from Joe Thorn from Aja.
Bruce Yarock

I own an FS100 and a PIX240 recorder and have shot with them a lot over the past 3 months. The biggest advantage of using the PIX240 with this camera is to get ProRes files immediately, and for use as a focus aid. The cmaera's AVCHC codec holds up really well in post, and I've rarely been able to detect an improvement in the PIX240 footage, other than it being available for editing in FCP7 right away. I think that lack of improvement is because of the camera's 8-bit output which is fairly limiting. When the PIX with a Sony EX3, which has 10-bit output via SDI, I can do more extensive color manipulation.

The PIX can be set to be triggered by the camera's on/off control, and this is really convenient. I've struggled over remembering to turn on other external recorders I rented after starting the camera each time, and especially remembering to turn them off at the end of a shot: oops, media used up way too soon!

The PIX240 is expensive for just these uses with the camera, but makes sense to get if it will also be used with other cameras as well. This week it was used for cross-conversion at a corporate shoot (it can take HDMI in and covert it to SDI and vice versa, with throughput of either signal as well while acting as an external monitor.)

I've built 2 rigs for mounting the PIX unit to the FS1000. If anyone wants photos of the mounts, I'll post them.

Chuck, please post photos of your 2 configuration.

Because many of my broadcast and corporate clients won't except AVCHD, I also bought a PIX240.
But I haven't found a satisfactory mounting solution.

I'm using the PIX as a monitor/viewfinder on a FS100, F3, EX3, Z5... and mounting it beside the lens so the camera can rest on my shoulder.
FS100 Users (http://www.indiecameras.com/Indiecameras.com/FS100_Users.html)

I have a shuttle. In my tests the FS100 AVCHD footage holds up really well.

However if you're grading heavily, the cleaner colour from 4:2:2 can make life easier. The AVCHD will break up in fast motion and low noise levels. You can argue that you don't see that, which is true up to a certain point but again if you're dealing with graded material that break up can become important as secondary correction can change during fast movement.

There is also a detail improvement, although you sometimes have to look for it.

The AVCHD codec has natural noise reduction too. Sometimes this makes footage look a bit better, sometimes you don't want it. At least uncompressed you have that choice.

So you can gain a small improvement in quality but you'd need to have a good reason for needing it though.

Having said this i read a while back that the HDMI is 4:4:4, i don't know of any external recorders that do that. I would love to know whether this is the case?

cheers
Paul

A recent update from my Sony reseller: The Atmos Ninja can now be triggered through the HDMI connection, which solves the LANC problem it had will the FS.

Bill,
I notice that the ninja ha only an hdmi in, not out. I rented a ki pro mini and it has an in and out, which allowed me to go from the camera to the kpm, kpm to my Zaucto evf on my shoulder rig. It looks like that if I went with the ninja, I'd have to go into the zacuto from the camera, and from the zacuto out to the ninja.

I wonder if that would be safe and if there would be any signal degradation. Does atomos make a unit with both hdmi in and out?
Bruce Yarock

Bill,
I notice that the ninja ha only an hdmi in, not out. I rented a ki pro mini and it has an in and out, which allowed me to go from the camera to the kpm, kpm to my Zaucto evf on my shoulder rig. It looks like that if I went with the ninja, I'd have to go into the zacuto from the camera, and from the zacuto out to the ninja.

I wonder if that would be safe and if there would be any signal degradation. Does atomos make a unit with both hdmi in and out?
Bruce Yarock

'Interesting question.

I know that SmallHD monitors have both HDMI through, plus option of component in (which could work fine for monitor) So if both outputs work simultaneously, is this workable?

The SmallHD DP6 has HDMI in only. The DP4 has HDMI loopthrough.

SmallHD sells a HDMI splitter to use if you need to drive multiple devices. I use it it to send one HDMI to my DP6 and the second output to a wireless HDMI transmitter for the directors monitor.

There is no signal degradation with the splitter.

Chris,
Could the small hd splitter be used to for the camera out to both an atomos ninja and the Zacuto evf?
Small HD says that it can split the signal to 2 monitors, but my interest is to split it to both the ninja and the zacuto.
Thanks
Bruce Yarock
Mini Self-Powered 1 x 2 HDMI Splitter (http://www.smallhd.com/Store/5-6-inch-HD-Monitor-Accessories/HDMI-Loop-through-Splitter_2)

Sure. Its output can be used with any HDMI device. I don't have a Ninja to test it with but I have tried it with my PIX240 and it works.

Thankds, Chris
Bruce Yarock

A recent update from my Sony reseller: The Atmos Ninja can now be triggered through the HDMI connection, which solves the LANC problem it had will the FS. Bill could you elaborate on this info! Is this a Sony firmware update or a Atomos Ninja firmware update that allows for triggering the Ninja via the HDMI out from the FS100

Bill could you elaborate on this info! Is this a Sony firmware update or a Atomos Ninja firmware update that allows for triggering the Ninja via the HDMI out from the FS100

My understanding is that is tweak that Ninja did. Prob best to check with them for confirm.

Just a random note about the FS100 and Ninja (admittedly from a PAL perspective): Use ProRes HQ mode for a visible quality difference. Anything less is only a workflow thing (ProRes LT is still good for bulk records).

Just a random note about the FS100 and Ninja (admittedly from a PAL perspective): Use ProRes HQ mode for a visible quality difference. Anything less is only a workflow thing (ProRes LT is still good for bulk records).

Hi Matt,

Have you got any side by side samples? Curious as ever...

Where do you see the differences?

cheers
Paul

Not my tests (I'm doing some next Tuersday) but

FS100 + Ninja | Philip Bloom Forum (http://philipbloom.net/forum/threads/fs100-ninja.349/#post-1584)

If you download his stills, check out the difference on the white shop in the bgd - the sharpness of the shop name, less aliasing in the sagging material in the window. Notice the extra crunch in the brick and stone work. Look at the blurred cars, note the extra detail in the blurs.

It's subtle, but if you're motion tracking on green screen, that's going to be a better key AND a better track. And it's enough to get me interested again.

Just take a look at this one...
ATOMOS Ninja – Sony FS100. codec comparison test ‹ PrePost (http://prepostconsulting.com/en/english-atomos-ninja-sony-fs100-codec-comparison-test/)

PIX 240 support rigs I built forthe FS100. #1 is a simple wood support. Both it and the mainly metal rig screw into the two 1/4-20 threaded holes on top of the camera. The second is a lightweight metal rig, shown before the main support legs were encased in aluminum tubes. Both rigs put the PIX unit high up, to clear the viewfinder screen. The wood support also moves it to the right side for clearance with less height.
The metal parts were later covered with gaffers tape, and the wood parts painted black. They hold the unit well, but with only one mounting hole, the PIX can wobble side to side a bit, harmlessly but a mild irritation.
Both are not too compicated to build. I can supply measurements if anyone wants.
The photos are apparently not going to show up in the order I uploaded them. The wood rig has a single vertical leg, and the metal one has 2 legs.

Just take a look at this one...
ATOMOS Ninja – Sony FS100. codec comparison test ‹ PrePost (http://prepostconsulting.com/en/english-atomos-ninja-sony-fs100-codec-comparison-test/)

That test seems flawed. As was mentioned in a different thread, it looks like the AVC footage might not have been deinterlaced by the editing software, therefore the AVC footage is half the resolution it should be.

The differences are not that dramatic!

cheers
Paul

Chuck, please post photos of your 2 configuration.

Because many of my broadcast and corporate clients won't except AVCHD, I also bought a PIX240.
But I haven't found a satisfactory mounting solution.

I'm using the PIX as a monitor/viewfinder on a FS100, F3, EX3, Z5... and mounting it beside the lens so the camera can rest on my shoulder.
FS100 Users (http://www.indiecameras.com/Indiecameras.com/FS100_Users.html)

Hi Bill, mind posting a photo of your rig? What are you using for the shoulder pad? I'm interested in having an external recorder double as a monitor for shoulder mounting also. Thank you.

I can see a need for an external recorder if you want to use the FS100 for broadcast duties, such as Discovery HD and the BBC HD. From what I understand, the AVCHD codec isn't accepted by high end broadcast outlets. It's fine for local broadcasts, as I've shot several commercials for the local affiliates.

If anyone has used their FS100 with just the internal codec for a big broadcast outlet - ESPN, Discovery, National Geographic, BBC, etc. - please let us know.

I'm not critisizing the AVCHD codec, but we don't set the standards for broadcasting.

I wonder what would happen if you just shot AVCHD and converted to prores or ciniform and then handed over to them. Would they even know?