I just installed the S-Log upgrade, and although my memory could be faulty, I seem to recall a post that explained how the user managed to obtain simultaneous signal from both the SDI and HDMI ports of the F3 (a search proved fruitless). Is this even possible with Version 1.2 firmware, and if not, is it anticipated that Version 1.3 will allow same?
Thank you in advance.

I think there's a menu option for this (under VIDEO SET). You have to have Dual-link and Gamma off though.

Both outputs can be active without S-Log engaged. The goal is to achieve the same with S-Log.

IIs this even possible with Version 1.2 firmware

Nope. Not possible.
Not sure about 1.3 and I wouldn't want to speculate until it is actually released.

PMW-F3 S-LOG & External Recorders Test Drive (http://www.vortexmedia.com/F3_TEST_DRIVE.html)

You can only have one selected (Monitor SDI or HDMI) when in S-LOG mode.

You can see all the output combination possible on page 35 of the Supplemental Operating Instructions which can be found on the "Resources" tab of the F3 page on Sony's website (Sony Product Detail Page PMWF3L (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-PMWF3L/)).

Nope. Not possible.
Not sure about 1.3 and I wouldn't want to speculate until it is actually released.

PMW-F3 S-LOG & External Recorders Test Drive (http://www.vortexmedia.com/F3_TEST_DRIVE.html)

Unfortunately, I agree. The advance info in re ver 1.3 is quite vague in that regard. If the new firmware fails to open the HDMI spout along with SDI, I may have to replace my Zacuto EVF with the new SDI Cineroid or, in the alternative, an SDI recorder with an HDMI output. In regards to the new SDI Cineroid, has anyone actually had the opportunity to try one with the F3? If so, how does its screen compare to the Zacuto?

Ron, I may find myself in the same situation as you for switching viewfinders.

I haven't tried the SDI version of the Cineroid, but last summer when I compared the HDMI Cineroid side-by-side on the same camera to the Zacuto, there was no comparison at all. The Zacuto looked way better and that's the one I bought. I would not look forward to switching viewfinders, so hopefully Sony will get the firmware right and I continue using the Zacuto.

According to Sony (Sony | Showcase (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/show-highend/resource.solutions.bbsccms-assets-show-highend-pmwf3.shtml#/1080output):)

"v1.30 - FREE update
Link A HD-SDI will be enabled for 4:2:2 output, this has been a strong feature request from end users of the camcorder, the ability to have both 4:2:2 outputs enabled, one for S-Log and the other for the monitoring LUT. In addition to 4:2:2 Link A output, S-Log 4:2:2 1080 50/59.94p output on Dual-Link or 3G-SDI will also be enabled"


- No timeframe listed on their website.



Not to sidetrack this thread, but Andy Shipside at Abel just tweeted (https://twitter.com/#!/AndyShipsides): "This just in.. a new EVF coming in 2012 from a great monitor company."

So maybe a new SDI solution coming on the EVF front?

Steve,

The changes in the SDI output capabilities are welcome improvements, but that quote doesn't address the simultaneous HDMI output issue which is a bigger deal for me. Why didn't Sony just put a decent VF on the camera in the first place? Think of how much time and energy has been wasted on this whole issue.

Why didn't Sony just put a decent VF on the camera in the first place?

Couldn't agree more, or at least VF connector, that way they could also cash in on selling high end VFs!

Hopefully an "F5" or similar will soon be released that deals with the ergonomic issues of the F3. 10 bit recording onboard would be nice too! :)

Well, they aren't exactly cashing in on selling external VF's because there's no good way to connect them, power them, and feed them a correct signal. If that was Sony's goal (I"m sure it was not) then they failed miserably. Don't worry, it will be addressed in the next model that builds upon the F3's weaknesses. It's the Sony way of doing things: The EX1 . . . and then the EX3 and EX1R. The PDW-700 . . . and then the F800. Standby for a F7 or F3R or something like that to be announced at or before NAB. It's pretty easy to guess what will be improved upon and what will remain the same.

Steve,

The changes in the SDI output capabilities are welcome improvements, but that quote doesn't address the simultaneous HDMI output issue which is a bigger deal for me. Why didn't Sony just put a decent VF on the camera in the first place? Think of how much time and energy has been wasted on this whole issue.

I agree! For me though I would mostly use EVF for handheld and then the VF is in the wrong place.

Ron, I may find myself in the same situation as you for switching viewfinders.

I haven't tried the SDI version of the Cineroid, but last summer when I compared the HDMI Cineroid side-by-side on the same camera to the Zacuto, there was no comparison at all. The Zacuto looked way better and that's the one I bought. I would not look forward to switching viewfinders, so hopefully Sony will get the firmware right and I continue using the Zacuto.

Hi Doug,
I have yet to try the new Cineroid, and would be loathe to discard my Zacuto, but Sony has put us in a real bind in this regard. Perhaps there will be something of interest, vis-a-vis a new SDI fed EVF. Absent that option, I'm not sure how I will resolve the issue. But I would be interested to hear back if you happen upon the new SDI Cineroid. If they've improved upon the loupe magnification issue, assuming nothing appears on the near horizon that appears more appropriate, it might be the only logical choice.

I wonder what happened to the Sony LCD Tube viewfinder that was shown at NAB last year?

I agree! For me though I would mostly use EVF for handheld and then the VF is in the wrong place.

Just to clarify: this is in shoulder-mount position where the VF is behind my ear.

Well, they aren't exactly cashing in on selling external VF's because there's no good way to connect them, power them, and feed them a correct signal. If that was Sony's goal (I"m sure it was not) then they failed miserably.

Doug, I think you misunderstood my post, that's exactly what I meant. They should have at least provided a VF connector, that way Sony could have made money on VFs rather than the sales going to compromised 3rd party solutions. Of course, a decent VF included in the price (not fixed to the rear of the camera!) would be better still!

I wonder whether they'll release an EX3 style body next. Although that would be better IMO, it is far from the pinnacle of ergonomic design.

I too can confirm that there is a new 3rd party VF solution solution coming in the first quarter of this year that may be what everyone is looking for and won't cost the earth. That's about all I can say at the moment.

Careful what you wish for regarding Sony bringing out a VF for the F3 (yea, I know the F3 doesn't have the connector for an ENG style VF). I bet it would cost almost as much as the camera if the other PRO color HD VFs are any indication.

I can only imagine how much of an uproar would be heard if Sony offered a proper VF @ $10k.

Maybe I'm a sucker, but I'd probably buy one at that price especially if it had connectors that look like they would be forward compatible with future cameras. After all, I've got a $12K VF on my F800 that I wouldn't give up for anything (fortunately I got a b-stock for 1/2 price).

Not a secret any more...

NEW Alphatron TV Logic EVF Coming to NAB (http://cinescopophilia.com/new-alphatron-tv-logic-evf-coming-to-nab/)

NEW Alphatron TV Logic EVF Coming to NAB (http://cinescopophilia.com/new-alphatron-tv-logic-evf-coming-to-nab/)

An interesting prospect with higher resolution than the current crop. But I wonder why a distinction is made between "HD-SDI loop through" vs the stated HDMI in/out? Are they implying that the HD-SDI is a passive throughput that does not feed the EVF? If so, it wouldn't interest me in the least.

Addendum: Just spoke to the reseller in Boston who claimed that the EVF will take either an SDI or HDMI signal. No info was available as to what, if any, focusing and exposure assists will be included. Slated for availability in the "spring." But given the apparent industry standard in regards to release dates, that could equate to the 5th of whenever.

I'll be at Rule on the 18th to do a presentation on S-LOG, so I'll see if they have a demo of the EVF that I can compare to my Zacuto while I am there.

That would be great.
I was about to place a pre-order deposit, but given my disappointment with previously hyped equipment, I put on the brakes in anticipation of further information. That said, TV Logic, the producing manufacturer, does have a good reputation in re their various monitor offerings. Color me "hopeful."

Careful what you wish for regarding Sony bringing out a VF for the F3 (yea, I know the F3 doesn't have the connector for an ENG style VF). I bet it would cost almost as much as the camera if the other PRO color HD VFs are any indication.

I can only imagine how much of an uproar would be heard if Sony offered a proper VF @ $10k.

My preference for a new Sony camera would be that they supplied it with a VF like they do with the PMW320/350 (I would be happy with that model VF for most applications) but also give the option of adding their high end VFs for those who can afford them via a 2nd VF socket.

Leave the HDSDIs (and HDMIs) for external monitoring and recording.

The F3 to me looks like it's always intended to be a very modular design. Many people are using external recorders and some very heavy PL glass with all sorts of different power options. In fact, there's almost an infinite number of different rigs out there and they all have different balance, setups etc, (even 3D). Doesn't that make it very difficult to incorporate a 'camcorder' style viewfinder? The ideal position will move all over the place depending on how the camera's going to be used.

I think that's a very good point Paul.

When I shot the Duran Duran concert I had my Cineroid Sdi EVF mounted towards the back of the camera as I was using a 40x zoom (via my B4 to F3 adapter) with remote zoom and focus controls on the pan bars. When I'm handheld I have the EVF mounted up front to the left of the lens, so the camera body sits on my shoulder. I think once the better 3rd party EVF's come out, along with better EVF mounts we will be much better off.

I agree though that a dedicated EVF connector would be nice.

I think that manufacturers haven't really nailed "modular" design or even what it means yet. If it is to be the future of pro camcorder design, it needs a lot of refining.

The VF is a critical component for almost all shooting (Steadicam, jib etc being exceptions) however the current designs such as the F3 and C300 seem to give it little consideration. Yes there are 3rd party workarounds but there should be more thought given to the original design.

I think that all a modern camera needs to accommodate for viewfinders is a dedicated HD-SDI output (with independently selectable and configurable info overlays) and a power port. Mounting points along the top of the camera are finally becoming an understood requirement. The more specific the camera's physical and electronic connection to a viewfinder, the less modular it becomes and then third party manufacturers will have to provide different models for each camera.

Obviously Sony has a ton of experience making outboard viewfinders and it is interesting that they chose not to introduce a version of their existing designs as an option for the F3.

While the electronics and optics of third party viewfinders are coming along (I am fairly sure that 2012 will be the year that they "arrive"), it's just as important to have a solid mounting system that allows the operator to maneuver the VF in the appropriate fashion. This is most definitely not a Noga-style arm, which introduces the fantastically undesirable roll axis into the equation. Probably the closest version out there is the one in the Letus Master Cinema Series (http://www.letusdirect.com/cart/mcs-evf-knuckle-with-quick-release.html). As Alister points out, the ability to mount the VF towards the back of the camera is great for studio-style operation, which mimics the extended eyepiece position on film cameras. There are likely many on this site who have not experienced the advantages of the rear position coupled with an eyepiece leveler--for long shooting stints, it's a much more comfortable and efficient way to work (for run and gun, not great). Towards the end of my operating career I did come to prefer the 7" onboard for studio style operating over having my eye stuck in the eyepiece, but that may have been out of laziness more than anything else! Actually, it did allow me the ability to perform more difficult moves that required a lot of pan and boom without having to contort myself, and the years of Steadicam had attuned me to framing via monitor.

My dream camera would be called the PDW-F800PL

An F800 with it's shoulder-mount design, optical recording, professional viewfinder, slot-microphone receiver, four channels of audio, v-mount batteries, D-tap, sophisticated paint menus etc. . . .

. . . but with an F3 sensor, dual-link outputs, an easier to navigate menu system, and a PL lens mount.

That is that camera I want. I could get by with just one camera if Sony were to build it. But with the F65 being so inexpensive, and the tapeless SRW-9000PL already around, I think it will remain a dream.

Doug, would not said dream camera truly be a one-size-fits-all if it could additionally accommodate 2/3" lenses with full resolution windowing? For those times where the weight and bulk of 35mm lenses isn't appropriate, such as run and gun doc style shooting? I'd think that would be quite the breakthrough.

Charles, not a bad idea, although I'd have to see it in action before I'd settle for the image quality of an ENG/EFP lens. I never realized how poor those $25K lenses really looked until I switched over to PL lenses. One of the best things about moving to a S-35 sensor is not having to use those lenses anymore. But with that said, maybe Alister's 2/3" adapter is what we'd want to use on my hypothetical PDW-F800PL for run & gun.

There's those cine-style zooms like the Zeiss Digizoom that floated around when the F900 was king--but not quite as ideal for run and gun. Still a greatly improved zoom ratio over the handholdable PL zooms (and faster, to boot).

We did manage to work the Alura 18-80 into a handholdable setup with the F3, but it's a little strange configuring a camera when the center of gravity is fore of the lens port. However I expect to see more and more of this as the cameras shrink as the optics stay the same size.