At the moment I'm using a Z1 and Z5, both with the MRCK1 card recorders.

What would be the advantages, if any, of getting an EX1R??

Any advice is appreciated.

Peter

Hi Peter,

I would start by asking this - How is your current gear not meeting your needs and expectations?

As a person who's used HDV extensively for the past 3 or so years, here's what I can say off the top about the EX1R as a person who's just about to purchase one:

You have full raster 1920x1080 recording options inside the camera. This means there is no need to worry about pixel aspect ratio issues during the editing process. You can also use a higher bitrate than HDV, 35mbps, with the XDCAM EX system.

The 1/2'' sensors will provide better light sensitivity than both the Z1 and Z5. I've had experience with a NX5 (the Z5 but with AVCHD) and the amount of noise in low light is pretty prominent. Remember, GIGO. (Garbage in, garbage out)

The EX1R's sensors are also 1920x1080 effective pixels for each of the 3 CMOS sensors. The Z5 uses "ClearVid" pixels at 1.07Mpixels (1920x1080 is 2.2Mpixels) and the Z1 only uses 960x1080 per sensor.

HDMI and HD-SDI outputs will give you a large variety of options for better external recorders that can record 4:2:2 and etc. Since the EX1R is already such a great head end, you can expect very high quality with a external recorder of your choosing. I chose the nanoFlash, but if you work with FCP a lot, any of the ProRes recorders would work for you too.

The bottom line: You will not regret an EX1R purchase stepping up from HDV.

Thanks for the replies chaps.

Chris, I've been a little disappointed with the low light capabilities of the Z5 and Jack has addressed this in his reply. In good light, both the Z1 and Z5 are good cameras but the 1/2" chips will obviously be better.

I don't really need 3 cameras (I've also got a HV30), so, as I don't intend doing anymore weddings and just basically film as a hobby, I thought the EX1R might be the way to go for a bit more creativity.

I suppose I've got to factor in also the cost of cards, batteries, etc......am I talking myself out of buying one? Help me !!!

Peter

Don't forget that the Z1 and Z5 both have less effective pixels than the EX1R.

Get a SD card adapter for SxS and your memory costs will decrease. Class 10 SDHC cards are much cheaper than even the SxS-1 cards.

The internal 35mbps codec is pretty robust. I would only get an external recorder if you're serious about quality.

Since I noticed you live in the UK, submitting to the BBC for broadcast is another story. It is mandatory that you use a external recorder with your EX1R if you want to be compliant with their quality standards. This will no doubt increase your costs.

What would be the advantages, if any, of getting an EX1R??

better, cleaner picture, even properly lit you'll see the difference naked eye, low light and gain up - big difference.

Right, that's it then, decision made!!

I hope my grand daughter understands that Father Christmas had an accident and won't be coming this year. I'll refer her back here if she doesn't believe me !!

Peter

Its a great camera and you will love using it.

Get ready for a more manual operating experience. The autofocus is not the same as the HDV cameras. It doesn't track objects that move around the screen. It only focuses on what is in the center. That certainly doesn't make it bad but it can be frustrating if you aren't used to how it works.

You will get the best out of the EX1 when you operate more manually. Especially with the picture profile settings. You can do amazing things with that. Out of the box the image is a bit plain but it doesn't have to stay that way.

Lots of fun learning to come.

Having moved from HDV to EX1R myself, I'll confirm what others have said about the EX1R and add some others. There are reasons why this camera is so loved by professionals and amateurs alike. Once you mastered the feature set like you would any camera, the EX1R will reward you with crisp beautiful images acquired with little technical fussing around so that you can concentrate on the creative task and related things. The smaller the crew, the more you'll appreciate it's ability to bring back good looking and sounding recordings time and time again. In my own experience, the camera has enabled me to hands down create better productions. YMMV

Peter, have you seen/used an EX1?

If not I'm fairly sure I'm coming to Preston early next year for a corporate factory shoot EX1, lighting guy (hopefully) and camera on a jib etc. Nice big 22 inch HD monitor on set. And filming a commercial in central Manchester on the 2nd

You would be welcome to come along.

Personally I'd look at the FS100 as well. If you don't shoot run and gun, or events, you can get really creative with the S35 chip and super low light on the FS100. You already have two nice video cameras. An EX1 is the same but with a sharper picture. Maybe what you need is something in another direction...

Duncan.

Also worth saying, lots of people do manage run and gun fine on an FS100, just not as well as a Z1 or EX.

Also, Also.... there's 1080p50, SD cards (cheap) a great LCD, lightweight, an odd but interesting 100fps mode, same batteries as your Z1, and there's firmware out soon to make it NTSC switchable. Oh. And it's pretty cheap.

I really want one, but I'd still keep the EX1 as it suits a lot of my work.


Duncan

Thanks for the offer Duncan.

I've had a very quick look at a friend's EX1 and he's given me some footage.

The reason I'd like to stay with the EX1 and not go for the FS100 is that (I hope) the footage from the EX1R I can edit in my RT.X2 system in real time. I think with the FS100 I'd have to upgrade my computer system, which is of course more money and less presents for grand child!!

I'd love to come and see you "in action" and if I can offer any help.....I have a Glidecam X10.

Thanks for the info.

Peter

Don't forget that the FS100 is absolutely 100% manual. You can't ramp zoom speeds as there literally is no servo for the zoom function for that camera. ENG stuff relies on stuff like this.

I also agree with the compression, AVCHD's compression is something I'm not a fan of. I have a machine fast enough to edit it, but I still prefer MPEG-2 over AVCHD.

BTW, I just got mine, very happy with the sensors. The noise at 12db is very acceptable to me compared to what I've seen on the NX5 or even the Panasonic HPX300.

Hi Peter,

I left behind a Premiere Pro Z1/RT.X2 combo when I bought an EX1. The RT.X2 cannot handle the full HD of which the EX1 is capable. However I can edit full HD natively within Premiere CS5 on my reasonably quick i7 processor without using the RT.X2. You could buy a second hand EX1 in good nick - there are plenty around - together with an Atomos Samurai for less than the price if an EX1R and be broadcast ready.

Cheers

Thanks Mike,

If I part ex my Z1 and Z5, a new EX1R will cost me £1500.

A second hand EX1 is about £3000 + £1500 for new computer + £280 for CS5.5 upgrade, so it's all adding up.

I also prefer the real time effects in Matrox, (not that I use all of them but the ones I do don't need setting up as you would have to do in CS5.5.

Peter

Peter, you seem to have already set your mind on EX.

But choosing a camera based on your editing system is daft. Particularly when you can easily transcode footage between codecs.

Realtime effects? You're not talking about starwipes and dodgy home movie stuff are you?

You've said you want to be creative? If you are a hobbyist, why bother with a camera like this.
Look around for reels shot on EX's versus DSLRs etc, and you'll see a lot more creativity or 'art' anyway, showing up in the latter.

What an EX gives you over an FS100 or similar:

Slightly sharper video.
A poor servo zoom (Zooms shots are only used sparingly in professional production, rather like auto focus).
Ability to operating handheld for longer running times.

But
Can you deal with the EX lenses lens problems?
Are you happy to use expensive batteries?
You'll need an IR filter to fix the IR contamination that all AX's suffer from!
It's a heavy camera compared to a Z1!

FYI An FS100 with the kit 18-200 lens seems to have amazing autofocus.

For the record the AVCHD codec has proven to be really really good.
And often deemed twice as efficient as XDCAM EX.
Yes it perhaps has to be transcoded, but you aren't working to a deadline are you?

I'm only spending my time writing this, as I really think an EX will offer you very very little.
I only got rid of my Z1 recently, I still loved the handling, the weight, the smooth ramping zoom etc etc.
Sure its old tech, but 1080p is just sharper video, and 1/2 inch is still a tiny sensor.

An EX1 suits my regular commercial work where I need to move fast, hand operate on a jib, and run HDSDI. But a FS100 (for example) would be my choice of camera to shoot everything else. TBH I'm going to hold out for an FS200 perhaps it'll have a fully articulating screen and HDSDI.

Duncan.

For the record the AVCHD codec has proven to be really really good.
And often deemed twice as efficient as XDCAM EX.
To the second sentence - not true.

It's reasonable to say that AVCHD or H264 *MAY* be twice as efficient as MPEG2 in theory. In practice it isn't, not for the equipment we're talking about. The spec allows for a lot of coding efficiencies - but most real time coders (definitely those in camcorders) don't take advantage of all the possibilities, hence have nowhere near twice the efficiency.

Spend tens of thousands of dollars on broadcast H264 encoders and you may well get twice the coding efficiency of MPEG2. Spend a few thousand dollars on a complete camera and you won't - nowhere near. Current AVC-HD cameras give slightly better than HDV quality (and full raster) at somewhat less than HDV bitrates - but they don't compare with 35Mbs XDCAM EX.

So the FS100's 24Mbps ACVHD is worse than an EX1's 35Mbps XDCAM EX
And that it's no better than HDV?

Wow, Sony have really dropped the ball then!

Peter, contrary to what Duncan implies, people with EX1Rs do creative and artistic work. Example:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/ex-series-sample-clips/503651-more-than-just-evergreens.html#post1704170

Um hold on Les. I didn't imply that you cannot be creative with an EX1. I think I make OK pictures with mine which appears on upwards of 1000 television commercial a year in the UK.

Burgess Pet Care's Supadog Dog Food makes TV Debut! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfECSWMTRPc&)
Bill Plant Driving School, National TV Advertisement - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KF0ggOnbOM)
Go Outdoors - Drama - You Tube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3em-wjKCYQ)
GO Outdoors TV Ad 23/05 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J-T8SKI1jM)
Coral Windows TV Advert Oct2011 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm8p1sVdTRU)
Views of Holy Island - Anglesey, North Wales - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ineFOFYjVtQ)
OneCall - TV Commercial - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BIOVIX8YFY)

What I'm suggesting is that if you go hunting on Vimeo for interesting experimental, edgy, arty, cool, short films and promos, there are more being made on DSLR type stuff. Why? Price, size, low light and accessibility I suppose. SDOF is the flavour right now for sure of course too.

An EX1 is a workhorse for sure, but it's no fun.

Duncan.

I have to disagree. The EX1R is a blast. It's my 5D mark 2 that's a pain in the neck. DSLRs make pretty much everything harder to do, take longer, and need a bunch of extra gear to be functional.

So the FS100's 24Mbps ACVHD is worse than an EX1's 35Mbps XDCAM EX
Yes.
And that it's no better than HDV?
It's full raster (1920x1080 versus 1440x1080), and "a bit" better in other respects. How much will vary with individual coders.
Wow, Sony have really dropped the ball then!
Not at all. It's a question of market segmentation. I'm sure Sony themselves will tell you that the XDCAM range is seen as higher than the NXCAM range, or you only have to look at prices. Hence part of that is higher priced range gets the better codec. Just look at the FS100 versus the F3. Are you trying to tell us Sony deliberately put the "inferior" codec into the far more expensive F3 !?!

It's also a question of technology. Both they and Panasonic wanted a pro/consumer solid state based format, using consumer (SDHC) memory. The use of SDHC via adaptors in an EX proved it was possible to reliably get 35Mbs onto such - but only when selecting carefully brands of cards etc. Using the lower data rate takes all those hassles away for a manufacturer - and gives longer recording time as well.

They could have put a very high spec H264 coder into the NXCAM range - similar to those used for broadcast transmission - but they alone currently cost many times what the NXCAM cameras cost! In the meantime, they (sensibly) don't. The 2x MPEG2 efficiency remains a goal, achievable only via extremely expensive kit, or non-real time software encoding.

Hi Duncan, and others, thanks for the replies.

I already have a Canon 550 with a nice selection of lenses but I've not had time to get into the workflow for movies yet, so the larger chip and DOF are there if I need them.

I suppose cost is a major factor. My Z1 and Z5, although not having a lot of hours on them, will, soon I think need replacing, so now is the time whilst they still have value. If I was to wait, it will cost me more in the long run.

NO, I don't use "page turns" etc in Matrox, but I like the preset, like the colour effects, I also have Magic Bullets, so I'm definately not one of the "Cheesy Brigade". I do like the real time output to tv with the Matrox, so I have two editing monitors. I've tried using the preview monitor but it's so small, even on a 17" monitor and if you were to suggest getting a larger monitor, that's more expense.

Keep the info coming, although I don't want to start an EX v FS100 war !!

Merry Christmas everybody.
Peter

Here's a blog with loads of information about the EX cameras from Alister Chapman who posts around here often: XDCAM-USER.COM | Alisters XDCAM blog and cinematography resource. (http://www.xdcam-user.com/)

Also, there's tons of discussion here on DVinfo comparing and contrasting the FS-100 with various cameras including the EX1R. Bottom line IMHO is they are different tools.