I have the Sony 550V and am interested in the Sony NX70 IF there are significant differences between the two. Can someone help me? I've looked at the specs and they seem very similar other than the form factor, of course, and the XLR inputs. I am curious mostly about picture quality.

I'll preface this by saying the CX550V, XR550V and MC50U are all essentially the same camera, with the XR using a hard drive instead of flash memory.

I run an XR550V and a CX700V along with my NX70 usually. Picture wise the first thing that jumps out at me is the wider angle 26.3mm on the NX70 vs the 29.8mm on the 550. The NX70 also handles low light better and is a tad sharper. You can also shoot 60P and 24P on the NX70, but if you're using the 550 with it you may end up using 60i to match them.

Thanks for your thoughts. I am drawn to this camera because I want to carry and use a smaller camera. The Sony AX2000 I use is getting bigger as I get older.

Matt,

Do you have any settings or tips to share regarding the NX70U? I''m using it with two CX500V's and the NX70U can't seem to keep up with their sharpness or vivid colors. I sent the cam in for service. Sony tested it for two weeks under numerous scenarios, made a couple of slight adjustments, then sent it back saying that my settings are "conflicting one another". I've used it for a few stage events since that time and while it is better than it was, I still can't seem to get it "dialed in".

Rey

Did they happen to say which settings were in conflict?

I don't have any specific settings to recommend. I usually run it in full auto, if it's dark I set all the cameras to 1/30 shutter speed, if it's very dark I turn low lux on so they can boost the gain (21dB for the 550, 24dB for the CX700 and NX70). Auto focus when there's light, manual focus in low light. Cinematone off, iAuto off, digital zoom off, Steadyshot set to Active.

Unfortunately, they did not provide any specifics beyond that.

I have been running all three in full auto, no change in shutter speed, auto focus on, cinematone off, iAuto off, digital zoom off, Steadyshot off.

Has anyone else experienced this? I changed the display on my NX70 to show the iris, gain and shutter speed as it is shooting in order to try and pinpoint the problem I'm having with a poor picture.
While taping a children's choral concert (dark room, bright stage), I noticed that the gain is pegged at 21db even when zoomed in fully. I manually dialed it back to experiment, but the picture became too dark at around 12db.

I know this cam is not perfect in low light, but since I mostly shoot stage events, this concerns me. It may also explain the problems I've been having. Any suggestions?

Hi Ray,

"poor picture" thats a tough description can you elaborate?

Its been one of the best low light cameras I've worked with so far. So far all the stage/studio work I shoot is lit at a minimum of 70 foot candles. I have seen the gain fall to 21db at some locations but I address this with my shutter speed and let the sensor collect more light. I typically don't like speeds below 30FPS and try and maintain at least 60.

I have also programed "My Buttons" for easy access of the features I need. For me its one touch white balance, shutter speed, gain. I use the lens ring for iris. I throw one touch "spot focus" into the my bottom area for interview situations.

Have you tried the "Low Lux" feature? There are some instances where there just isn't enough light for any camera. I first used this while shooting at the Orlando Science Center. Many of their exhibits are literally in the dark. The client was standing next to me the entire time and we had disappointed him with our Panasonic VariCam on a previous shoot. Their was almost no light and I flipped on the Low Lux on the NX70 and was amazed at the results.

On one of my older cameras it would just default into a low lux mode. With the NX70 you'll need to turn this on. So in those instances I'd put those other features in auto and turn the low lux on. If the shutter speed falls to low you may need to take control of that.

So FPS and low lux for those really tough under lit situations might do it.

Bryan

Thanks, Bryan.

This has been an issue since I got this camera. Despite the stage area being brightly lit, I cannot understand why the gain goes so high. The image always comes out grainy and the colors are nowhere near vivid. Pathetic next to the two CX500's set to full auto at the same shows.

Sorry for your frustration. Brightly lit is a subjective description I carry a light meter and what's good for the eye isn't alway good for video. I'd need first hand experience to make a determination. It's the same "Exmor R" CMOS sensor but a different lens. The NX70 is a wide angle lens that could be your difference. Like I said I'd do the most to give the sensor more light, a slower shutter speed will do that, how slow is up to you. As far as using low lux that will be a decision to consider, its there if you need it.

Rey, think you could post a side by side video of the cameras at wide angle in full auto? I'm interested to see the differences. Also if you can do one in manual mode, (set the CX500 playback data to 'camera info' take a clip then review and copy those settings to the NX70) that would help too.

It would be difficult to reproduce in my home. But if I can find it, I'll post a link to the same video I sent to Sony trying to get an answer to the problem.

This video is the same one I sent to Sony. It's choppy in some parts because it was a work-in-progress edit. Hopefully, it will give you some idea of what I was speaking of.

BBMS Choral 12_14_11_test.avi - YouTube (http://youtu.be/JEtVy6hSS3M)

I noticed the choppiness more than the color differences but I could see them. If multi-cam is the direction you're going than matching cameras is the goal. Matching the same camera model would be easier and recommended. I would set up all three cameras together and experiment.

The fact that you have 2 in full auto and one in manual mode makes this a bit more difficult in devising a formula. The NX70 is different enough that full auto is not going to give you the same results. Plus you're using a different lens.

I took a minute and downloaded your operations manual.
http://www.docs.sony.com/release/HDRCX520V_handbook.pdf
Man they really tie your hands don't they! Where is the basic scene info displayed? How do you view the gain, frame-rate, shutter speed and iris settings?

This is what I'd do if possible, and I don't know if it is:

In a test situation not an actual shoot, find out what settings the CX500 is choosing in low light? and yes the shoot you showed us was less than the typical 70 foot candles I shoot in. If your involved or have influence in the lighting I'd work on balancing the lighting across your subjects. There was over a full F-stop difference just left to right on the CX500 wide shot. If I was panning from left to right I'd need to iris through that move. It's not just whats falling on the tops of their heads its what falls on their faces. Some were getting considerable side light and others almost nothing. Without having any real motion in the static shots to judge by my guess is the CX500 is using a slower shutter speed to increase the light along with a wide open iris and who knows what the gain setting is?

They have this camera so automated I don't know if those settings can be exposed. It's your camera you tell me?

One thing you can do with the NX70 is turn on the shot info under the set-up menu under Data Code and choose Camera Data and turn it on. You can then look at the camera settings "when" the material was shot. I just pulled up some blue screen material I shot yesterday where I used 0db F2.6 shot at 60p and at a shutter speed of 60. You can at lest gather that much info from your NX70 shots on your camera as a starting point.

Here is the goal: Make sure everyone is shooting at the same frame rate (60fps or 30), shutter speed (8-90 to what ever), iris and gain settings. In essence make sure each camera is collecting the same amount of light. Then we can start to tell where the differences are if any and share them across multiple cameras. If we cant do that then we can begin to match the look across cameras.

It looks like the NX70 is much softer than the CX500s. Also noticeable shake as you pan, do you have steadyshot off?

If it were me I'd switch it to a wide position and use one of the CX500s as the tight shot. The naturally wider angle of the NX70 may be hurting it in terms of iris stop down as you zoom in vs what the CX500 would be at.

Yes, the camera shake was very prominent in that clip since it was a rough edit. Luckily, the final video was cleaned of all of that. I was ill when I shot this particular concert and had I known how badly my hands were shaking, I would have enabled the steadyshot function. Also, this show is an extreme example. The lighting (as Bryan pointed out), is uneven and I am forced to be much farther away from the stage than I would like.

Bryan, I'm not sure if the CX500's have the capability to display current setting info in real time. Quite honestly, I have been using both of them in full auto and leaving them that way. Only about 1 in 10 tapings require me to make any color adjustment to those two in post. The main issue is the graininess and muted colors of the NX70. It would be a shame, but I may have to follow Matt's advice and set the NX70 as the wide shot and use one of the CX500's for closeups and pans.

I should also note that this video was shot prior to sending the camera back to Sony. While they couldn't find any major problems, they did make a few adjustments and blamed the rest on "conflicting settings". I'll do some experimenting on keeping the gain to a reasonable level. 21db just seems way too high.

I edited a play yesterday that I rcorded using this same setup (less one of the CX500's), and I didn't need to make ANY adjustments in post. I wish I had noted what settings the NX70 was using at the time.
There's a couple of clips from that on my FB page:
https://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/pages/Magical-Memories-Productions/35765855876

Keep in mind you are likely mixing interlaced footage with progressive. As far as the gain settings for each camera the amount of light needed for say a 1/30 of a second exposure vs a 1/60th would be roughly 1/2. So for a 1/30 shutter speed the gain would not need to be as high as the 1/60 exposure. If we think of the sensor as a light bucket the longer we let light fall on it the less gain we need. Since we are not shooting sports here the exposure time can be lengthened without creating much motion blur. My guess is we are not apples to apples here with a straight comparison.

Good points, Bryan. Just FYI - all three cams are shooting 60i.

Looks like the NX70 was not in sharp focus and it's black level is higher than the CX550's. Same characteristics I see with my NX5U if I am not very careful about focus. Did you have the NX70 in auto focus or manual focus. The wider shots in auto focus would be at infinity and will always look sharp for that lens. My CX700 focuses better if it can lock onto a face or seems more consistent in manual focus.

Ron Evans

For this particular event, the NX70 was in full auto because I was not feeling up to par. Again, not the best example I can give for my issues with it, but I've not had time to get an updated clip readied aside from the one on our FB page.

The CX500's seem to do great on their own in full auto. I'm a "one man band", so I am very limited when it comes to adjusting those on the fly. Although, the wide shot cam is usually locked into manual focus if I have lighting changes to deal with.

Yes I usually shoot with NX5U, XR500 and CX700. Manually shoot with the NX5U and have XR500 and CX700 set unattended, AE shift usually -4 on the XR500 and full -EV on the CX700 both set with manual spot touch focus after I have set the shot up. They do very well in this mode. My wife sometimes uses the SR11 as a closeup camera too.

Ron Evans

Yes. I have no complaints on my two used CX500's. I just need to get this NX70 dialed in. We're not getting along too well so far. Sometimes makes me wish I had my VX2100 back. :)

Hi Rey -
Glad the CX's are treating you well!

I'm not quite sure why focus on the NX70 looks so soft, I thought it was roughly the same "guts" as the CX700, which is plenty sharp, definitley as capable as the "5xx" series cams, even a tiny bit sharper if you're shooting 60p rom my testing.

One thing is the contrast looked a little "off" - perhaps you need to do an AE shift or the NX equivalent to pull the blacks down - they looked "muddy" rather than "black", and that's not unusual for a "stock" sony exposure. Just using the AE or EV shift will by nature pull back the "gain" the camera will be trying to use, as it's not trying to "overexpose".

The color was also a tad "flat", maybe turn on the x.v. color (don't see it in the CX700 menu, so it may be an "extinct" function?) - supposedly it doesn't make a difference unless you are displaying on a "x.v. capable" device, but I suspect it actually DOES give a little better color "vibe". I also suspect the white balance is a tad off - the skin tones didn't look quite right, probably the source of the rest of the problems.

Does the NX have any of the "consumer-y" face recognition functions, and were they enabled? I'm finding that Sony has really "got the magic" in their facial recognition features, adjusting the cameras for the "best" skin tones and exposure - usually faster and more accurately than I could achieve in "manual" mode.

Just some thoughts that might give you a place to start looking, not very familiar with the NX70 (barely with the CX700), and at the moment trying to wrap my brain around shooting with the SLT-A65 with all the myriad features and lenses and all that "stuff"... my "camera budget" had to go to something that would shoot stills and video, and the A65 seems to pull it off fairly well so far.

I've had recital rehearsals all week and have recorded the last two on the NX70 to see how it looks. The first night, I still had a problem with dull colors and some graininess. Last night, I sat there with my tech packet and pen in hand and noted the iris, gain and shutter speed for each performance and made some adjustments along the way to see how the camera reacted. Even after all of that, I don't know the best settings to use.

Tonight, I am going to take Bryan and Matt's advice and place one of the CX500V's right next to the NX70, try to sync the settings as best I can between the two, but also try them in full auto. The NX70 will give me real time readings, but the CX500 will only give me the reading as I play it back. I'll look at both in Vegas and see where we are.

Maybe I'll learn a little something that way.

Found that I'm getting a better picture, but still dull colors on the NX70.

Best performance comparison (WB on the CX500V was slightly off since I did not get there in time to do a "one push" setting): CX - vivid colors and little to no graininess/ NX70 a little graininess with dull colors when compared to the CX.

Specs at that time with a moderately lit scene with predominantely blue lighting:
NX70U was at -1.2ev, F3.1(auto), 3-9db gain, 1/30 shutter
CX500V was at -4aes, F2(auto), 6db gain (auto), 1/60 shutter(auto)

Any thoughts?

Why do you have the NX70 shutter at 1/30 ? For comparison they should both be set the same. You will get different motion blur so shots may look different as far as sharpness. I always have all my cameras set at 1/60 for theatre/dance shows. I usually set the WB at the default indoor setting too. The NX70 is basically a CX700 and I find that my CX700 is very similar to my XR500. A little better in low light but marginal difference. XR500 has more range on the AE shift though so it performs better on its own unattended. Focus is VERY critical for the closeup shots and my wife usually runs the SR11 for closeups and runs in manual continually using spot focus to pan or zoom as these small Sony's do not hold backfocus at all and need to be refocused each time the zoom is used or panned around for a new shot. I expect the NX70 is the same !!! If you are in auto focus it may decide what to focus on ( may not be what you want) and in manual focus we have found touch spot focus works the best.

Ron Evans

Ron,

I tried the NX70 at both 1/30 & 1/60. I was told to go to 1/30 to keep the gain in a manageable range. I also try to use manual focus whenever possible or spot focus if the situation warrants. Tonight, I just set the two cameras next to each other at the exact same height, zoomed just enough to frame the dancers with plenty of room above their heads and let them roll while making adjustments between numbers to see how they match in post. I really saw no negligible difference between 1/30 and 1/60 on the NX70 in terms of how it looked. It definitely cut back on the gain though.

My choice would be to still use 1/60 and open the iris up a little to reduce the gain as I assume you are shooting at 60i anyway. I find that even my NX5U seems to have a sharper picture when the iris is around F2 to F3.4. I too started with the NX5U by using closer to F4 , 1/60 and whatever the gain had to be but now try to stay F3.4 or so and reduced gain. In auto I think you will find the Sony's will try and stay closer to F2 or seem to be wide open at times. I am surprised you find a grain problem with the NX70 as my CX700 has low grain noise even at 18db and at 21db it is still less than the NX5U at 12db !!!

Ron Evans

Ron, I'm going to take your advice on the iris and shutter speed settings. Looking back over my notes the past three nights of taping the rehearsals, I'm beginning to think that my issue with this camera is somehow tied to closeups. For the most part, I work with the cam zoomed 80-100%. Perhaps utilizing it differently as a wide angle cam or cutting back on the zoom in conjunction with all of the advice I've received on here will give me better results. Maybe it just loses detail on full zooms?

Yes focus is VERY critical. At wide angle almost everything is in focus from just in front of the camera to infinity at almost any focus setting !!! But at full zoom just a slight zoom movement and it will go out of focus. A touch of spot focus and you can see the image come into focus again. At least that is the case with all my small Sony cameras as they just will not hold focus through any zooming at the tele end. That is the different in using my NX5U where I can set the focus on the stage once and not bother again throughout the performance though I do keep a check with peaking on all the time and occasional expanded focus. From 65' depth of field covers the whole stage unless I go in for a very tight closeup when I will recheck the focus for that distance, normally it still OK. The difference between consumer cameras and the bottom end of the Pro line.

I would set gain limit at 9db, shutter at 1/60 and then use the exposure on manual ( rather than iris ) so that zebras( 100%) just appear on white subjects but not any faces or skin. This should let the camera choose the best combination of iris and gain. Use touch spot focus frequently and every time you zoom.

ROn Evans

And there's the real not-so-funny part! There is no exposure adjustment. :)

On my CX700 I have ( on the dial control) focus, exposure, iris, shutter speed, AE shift, White balance shift. What does the NX70 have? I know you have some gain controls. Your option is to set gain limit and use iris control with gain in auto .

Ron Evans

Manual gain, gain limit, manual shutter, manual iris, Intelligent Auto.

Hands. Tied.

I have had a look at the NX70 manual and see the issue. The ring only has a choice of focus, zoom and iris. The best you can do is set a gain limit, have gain on auto and control the iris with the ring and look at the zebra or histogram on the LCD. Still need to use spot focus and of course the lens ramps as you zoom so will go to F3.4 at the tele end making the gain increase if you are in low light. You can at least see what the values are when you shoot rather than waiting for the playback of data code.

Ron Evans

Fully lit gym tonight for a talent show. Tried what you said, but still got a gain of 3-9db on close zooms. Had the iris pulled as far as it would go - usually 3.1-3.4. AE shift at -1. LCD looked underexposed, so I'll be checking the footage tonight.

You don't need AE shift on if you are manually working the iris. The lens ramps so will go to F3.4 whatever you do on full zoom. That's the nature of the lens. So at full zoom the gain has to be increased unless you have a whole lot of light !!! I would still have gain on auto and maybe limit at 12db if it goes to 9 for you now. I usually work it so that I have zebra on white objects on a stage otherwise most everything else is underexposed. You have a choice of overexposing white paint or not seeing the actors !!! I find with the Sony's if bright white objects do not have a little zebra the shot is underexposed and a little drab. Will lack punch and if viewed with waveform monitor in your NLE will show blacks too high and not full saturation. At least that has been what I have seen on my NX5U. The small Sony's have better black but still share the saturation issue. The cameras will record superwhite so although zebra at 100% are showing the camera is still recording detail as long as it isn't too high above 100%. Definately NO zebra on faces or skin or even yellow. A levels control in the NLE will bring withing range and preserve the detail.

Ron Evans

Thanks for the advice, everyone!

I ended up setting the NX70U to -1EV, auto gain, gain limit at 12db, shutter speed set at 1/60 and iris in manual (although it stayed on the low end on its own the whole time - 2.8-3.4) and the footage looks great! Even matched up to the CX500s perfectly.

I guess that the magic setting that was failing me was the gain. Even with dark performances, 12db worked out fine. In previous tapings, the gain pegged at 21db when a scene was even moderately lit. Which, in turn, has been causing me to have so much graininess in the footage.

Once again, the advice on this forum proved invaluable. :)

For your information. If one of the parameters is in auto then the camera has control of the exposure. With your settings you were telling the camera that you were controlling the iris but it had the control of gain up to 12db but to set its parameters darker by 1 ev. The ev setting controlled how dark or light the image was.. By controlling the iris you had control over how much gain the camera used ( and depth of field ). The fine adjustments the camera was making was using gain in increments not available manually. I have found this is the best way to use these small Sony's as the auto exposure is really good and all one has to do is tell it how much darker or lighter you need the image.

Ron Evans

Glad you finally nailed it, it makes sense that adjusting the EV to the negative side helped - that probably fixed the natural tnedency of Sonys to overexpose (washing out the colors and contrast a bit), and also reduced the gain the camera needed to achieve the exposure it believed it was supposed to get. Hopefully will also make for "sharper" looking footage by improving the contrast overall.

I think you will find most people who shoot Sony cameras use similar tricks to get things to look the way we want them to, and you sort of have to figure out the tricks for each camera as they like to change up the adjustments (newer cams seem to be replacing "AE Shift" which we all knew and loved... with "EV" adjustments!).

Since there is no ND filters on the NX70 how can you see if the shot is overexposed?

I don't like the idea of the camera speeding up the shutter to limit the light coming in.

I used to think the same - try increasing the shutter speed... you will never notice the difference.

I will be filming world rally cars who will be speeding past 60+mph/100kph+ so I'm guessing the cars will strobe past, not the look I was going for.

That with quick pans and very bright conditions I would prefer to due ND filters to control the light.

I have a variable density ND that I screw on my CX700. Works very well. In any conditions that need it I just rotate until the picture starts to go a little dark then I know that iris is full open and gain full so just back off a little then all is great. This has worked well shooting in the snow as an example.

Ron Evans