At this link you can follow the progression discovery of an issue with the Sony Nex VG20, but I feel it is very important to DVInfor members to be aware of this issue, before buying:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-avchd-nex-vg10-nex-vg20/502301-vg2o-questions-answered-footage-coming-4.html#post1694558

I actually bought this camera, with the belief that it would fill and replace my Canon EOS DSLR. The advertised features clearly seemed to mean that I was finally going to get back to my preferred camcorder form factor. Unless Sony changes something in the firmware, I am afraid that we did not get what we were hoping for. In fact, they have crippled this camera, giving it less adjustment functionality than the VG10.

I do think the image is spectacular but there is simply no way I can currently find to adjust some basic parameters. There appears to be a complete lack of ability to adjust contrast, saturation, or sharpness. The only exception to this may be by invoking the Cinematone setting, which seems to reduce these somewhat, but not enough for decent film making purposes.

I have been in touch with Sony support, and to be fair, they haven't even seen the camera yet. I am told I will be able to speak to someone on Monday about that. I am hoping that I have missed something somewhere, but the complete lack of mention of the advertised features gives me reason to think otherwise. Again, I hope Sony is planning to change things with a firmware update.

In review once again, here are the advertized features that are not aboard, from what I can tell. This is text right off of Sony's website.

Eight White Balance Modes

These help you get the shot by optimizing the camera for specific shooting situations. Select from Auto, Daylight, Shade, Cloudy, Incandescent, Fluorescent, Flash, and Custom modes.
Only 4 settings..

Six Creative Style settings

Control how the camera processes your images with six finishing styles: Standard, Vivid, Portrait, Landscape, Sunset and B&W. You can even fine-tune contrast, saturation, and sharpness to your personal taste.

Dynamic Range Optimizer (DRO)

Dynamic Range Optimizer improves results with backlit subjects and recovers details hidden in shadows while maintaining highlight detail. Settings include Auto, Level with a choice of five operating levels and Off.

I am attaching a .pdf of the website below for those who want to see the actual page.

Thanks Chris for all the work you have done.

Ive cancelled my VG20 order with B&H until or IF these problems are solved. The way I read the VG20 ad was that it would have all the capabilities of the NEX-5N, which I own and love. The VG20 having the same capabilities plus the interchangeability of the the lenses between the two seemed too good to be true.....and evidently IT IS.

If Sony decides to update the firmware back to semi-pro status,where it should be, I may order the VG20. Im glad I kept my XH-A1. Canon has never let me down.

Thanks again,
Jeff

I feel the same way Jeff.

Bad enough that an earlier version of the camera has those presets (a camera that's still for sale BTW); bad enough that a still camera costing a 1/3 as much has those presets - but the fact that Sony's own website and several authorized dealers listed those features as being on the camera is beyond bad business - it might actually be criminal.

Has it really come to this? In a time when corporate greed and mismanagement is headline news nearly every day, Sony's decision seems even more bone-headed. Seriously, taking away features that should be there might be stupid, but advertising (for months no less) that those features are indeed on the camera is beyond the pale.

My next cam will now def either be a Panny or Canon - I just can't reward a company in any way that treats its customers this way. Oy.

Just as an update, B&H now has the VG20 description page back up:
Sony NEX-VG20 Interchangeable Lens HD Handycam NEXVG20 B&H Photo

Interestingly enough, under the section "exposure control' in the specs page, it still has this listed:
Creative Color Modes Standard, Vivid, Portrait, Landscape, Sunset, B/W

So does Sony's link from B&H:
"Six Creative Style settings

Control how the camera processes your images with six finishing styles: Standard, Vivid, Portrait, Landscape, Sunset and B&W. You can even fine-tune contrast, saturation, and sharpness to your personal taste. "

Prosumer NEX-VG20 (http://www.live.sonyus.webcollage.net/server/bhphotovideo/sonyus-product-content/httpb?ws-action=http://www.live.sonyus.webcollage.net/_wc/pc/features/NEXVG20.html?tab%3dfeatures-77e36b9b%26wcpc%3dNEXVG20%26tab-caption%3dDetailed%252bFeatures%26tab-code%3dfeatures%26tab-var%3d77e36b9b%26channel-product-id%3d818266%26showtabs%3dtrue%26format%3dpopup%26is-in-showcase%3dfalse~&ws-containerurl=http://content.webcollage.net/bhphotovideo/product-content-page?sku%3d818266%26wcpid%3dsonyus-NEXVG20&channel-product-id=&wcpc=NEXVG20&type=&enable-reporting=true&showtabs=&MarkupType=document&PresentationFormat=html)

I feel the same way Jeff.

Bad enough that an earlier version of the camera has those presets (a camera that's still for sale BTW); bad enough that a still camera costing a 1/3 as much has those presets - but the fact that Sony's own website and several authorized dealers listed those features as being on the camera is beyond bad business - it might actually be criminal.

Has it really come to this? In a time when corporate greed and mismanagement is headline news nearly every day, Sony's decision seems even more bone-headed. Seriously, taking away features that should be there might be stupid, but advertising (for months no less) that those features are indeed on the camera is beyond the pale.

My next cam will now def either be a Panny or Canon - I just can't reward a company in any way that treats its customers this way. Oy.
_____________________________________________________________________

Well said John !

Ive been drooling to get this camera for a couple of months and now this! Im still hoping all the presets are hidden somewhere yet to be discovered. Ive had no experience with Sony using Canon exclusively until I purchased the new NEX 5N. It's such a great camera I was expecting the VG20 to be even better and a perfect duo with the 5n.
I may go the VG10 route. I just need to calm down and be patient...hard to do isn't it. haha

Jeff

I spoke with various levels of support help at Sony this morning, ending up with a very business like and candid gentleman by the name of Charlie. I found out some interesting things:

1. The VG20 is not really released for general sale until the ninth of November. The camera was released for presale to the Sony Style store on the 1st. That is why I got mine before others did.

2. Support has not seen the camera they were able to access some technical information. At a lower level of support, the tech told me there was a page on the handbook he had about selecting the missing properties. He indicated there seems to be a selection on the intitial menu page indicated, that I don't have. After that, I was passed up the chain. I meant to confirm that he was sure he was looking at a VG20 handbook, but was passed up before I could ask.

3. At this point, Charlie was unable to rectify the problem. He is uncertain whether it is firmware issue, or if they messed up on the advertising end. He will follow up and get back to me.

Hopefully, we will have a bit more clarity on the issue within a couple of days.

Amazing!!
This seems to be an unprecedented screw-up.
A huge company releases a fairly major product and doesn't seem to know what features it has.
Worldwide product discriptions are released and in place, but may or may not be correct.
The product ships with firmware that may, or may not be correct.
I've been around for a while, but this is a new experience for me ;-)

This VG20 "featuregate" is another example of a company where the execs are asleep at the wheel. Let us not forget that Sony allowed their Playstation user accounts to get hacked.

Sony's been bleeding money like mad - over a billion this year alone:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/sony-posts-346-million-loss-for-july-september-quarter-expects-red-ink-for-full-year/2011/11/02/gIQAlbsdeM_story.html

So obviously all divisions of the company are under pressure to deliver. Unfortunately, if this decision holds up for the VG20, Sony will be doing exactly what they are trying to avoid. Simply put, this most recent move is as unfriendly to would be buyers as could be imagined.

Hey guys. :I am tickled pink someone is making this type of technology available. I am not looking at this as conspiracy. And frankly, I can understand why the company would not want this camera to operate as good as their $5,500 FS 100. However, given the capabilities at the lower end of the Nex line, it seems a shame to cripple this camera which is supposed to be the Nex flagship.

The people I dealt with seem fair and concerned, and I am glad I had someone to talk to about it.

Don't forget that between the Japan and Thailand disasters, Sony has not exactly been having a banner year... in some ways it's amazing they have been able to deliver much of anything at all!

From my experience, the "engineers" put some features in (or "out") that really aren't known (things like the LANC in the A/V jack). Marketing probably puts out a certain amount of information based upon "near final specs", and with a NEW product, there may or may not be changes/revisions/deviations from the original specs.

The odds actually favor the features being there, but for whatever reason not available or active - I heard the A77/NEX7 have been heavily criticised as there was a last minute upgrade of the Bionz processors, and there were numerous glitches with the existing firmware... now those cameras are affected by the Thai floods, so probably only a limited number of cameras made it into the wild with "problems".

I would guess if there's enough of a negative feedback, that a firmware update might open up the additional features, presuming the hardware will support them, which again I suspect the odds favor...



And Jeff - I would HIGHLY recommend against trying to match the sensor of the VG10 with the NEX5n - you'd probably end up with a larger number of image matching issues than the menu limitations imposed by the VG20...

I agree Chris - no conspiracy. Rather, another galatically bad business decision regarding their camera line. Let's put it this way - if Sony had put an SDI out and a ND wheel in the FS100, they would have effectively killed the the AF100. Dead on the spot.

And while I'm glad the support people are being helpful, it's certainly not them who made this decision in the first place. The VG20 - even with everything it's supposed to have - was questionable for the price (as Steve Mullen as so correctly pointed out).

As is, it seriously limits anyone who has designs on shooting any sort of narrative work. It also badly shakes any sort of faith a consumer might be seeking in a company that already has an extremely poor customer service reputation. Starting with the E mount last year, and 3 new S35 video cameras this year (plus a host of still cams with video), it looked like Sony was making a clear, conscious, decision to shake off that reputation.

Hopefully, this is just a SNAFU - perhaps you accidentally got a pre-pro camera, or a very early production model with improper software. It's happened before, and with all the new products (plus horrible flood in Thailand) you can see it happening.

But, given the total lack of early reviews from English speaking sites, the poor treatment VG10 owners have gotten, and their own bad rep, I don't have high hopes. Fingers still crossed though...

One of the things I reported as not being on board was the Dynamic Range Optimizer (DRO), decribed as:
..
"Dynamic Range Optimizer (DRO)

Dynamic Range Optimizer improves results with backlit subjects and recovers details hidden in shadows while maintaining highlight detail. Settings include Auto, Level with a choice of five operating levels and Off. "

So there is no misunderstanding, .there is actually a back light correction tool on board the camera. It is either an off or on affair and is total automated. There is no slider or any other method of adjusting.

So as it stands right now, the VG10 has more control over the image/video/presets than the VG20 with the current firmware......correct?

Someone said the "official" release date is tomorrow the 9th of Nov. Maybe that run will have better firmware.
Jeff

Jeff:

I don't have the 10. I do know that my DSLR have various styles and 3 extra styles I can adjust and save contrast, saturation and sharpness in. I can install technicolors specially prepared picture styles to allow grading. I don't have any other NEX product, but I am led to believe that there is control of some sorts in those products. In the VG20 you do have manual control over exposure, through gain, iris and shutter. Its just that you are stuck with the contrast, sharpness, and saturation setting that Sony gives you in Standard or Cinematone shooting.

I was told by Sony support that actual official release is the 9th, and that my purchase from Sony Style was a prerelease sale.

Chris - did Sony say they were going to call/email you back an answer to your questions from yesterday?

Yes, but no specific date given. I figured I will call back tomorrow if I hear nothing.

One of the things I reported as not being on board was the Dynamic Range Optimizer (DRO), decribed as:
..
"Dynamic Range Optimizer (DRO)

Dynamic Range Optimizer improves results with backlit subjects and recovers details hidden in shadows while maintaining highlight detail. Settings include Auto, Level with a choice of five operating levels and Off. "

So there is no misunderstanding, .there is actually a back light correction tool on board the camera. It is either an off or on affair and is total automated. There is no slider or any other method of adjusting.

Chris - DRO is a carryover function from Sony STILL cameras - Backlight correction is from the video side.

While the two may be related in terms of using similar algorithms to optimize image quality, the DRO is typically achieved by taking multiple near-simultaneous "still" exposures (with different exposure settings), and overlaying them (think HDR) to create a final still with more overall lattitude than a single still could achieve. I doubt that such an "effect" could be achieved while shooting 60fps... for obvious reasons.

IF DRO is anywhere, it will ONLY be available when the camera is in stills mode - menus that don't apply to specific modes are "hidden" to reduce clutter (and incidently make it REALLY hard to remember where some functions are!), this is by design, and is part of how Sony designs the menus - rather than leaving EVERYTHING showing (but perhaps greyed out when not available). FWIW, I didn't see much of anything in the manual on the "stills" capabilities of the camera (which WERE of interest to me).

Instead, as is fairly typical of Sony VIDEO cameras, there is likely to be both a "backlight" and a "spotlight" compensation - designed to be "auto" by analyzing the image and optimizing for any faces to either correctly expose against a strong backlight situation (overexposing for the frame, but for "correct" face exposure), or alternatively to underexpose to prevent faces from being blown out against a dark background. NEITHER function increases overall lattitude beyond that which the CMOS and processor can produce from a SINGLE exposure/frame. Basically, the camera just rides the exposure instead of you doing it manually... but it's also probably doing some other tricks to optimize faces at the same time.

Hope that will help clarify at least that ONE functional issue - the VG10 and 20 both have pretty strong ties to the ALPHA and NEX cameras, which of course are STILL cameras with VIDEO capabilities, I considered the idea that the VG20 can also take stills to be a potential plus, but it doesn't necessarily make it a "DSLR replacement", though it has many similar features to it's Alpha/NEX siblings. Maybe Sony decided to axe the stills features as they didn't make much sense in a camcorder form factor? Somehow I seem to remember that this was supposed to shoot RAW in stills mode, ought to see if that's still there...

What I find more troubling are the "missing" scene modes and the apparently shortened WB menu, particularly since these features ARE a part and parcel of the NEX/Alpha lines, and even the current crop of P&S cams that shoot video... and they ARE available when shooting video! I know that the "scene" modes are buried and hidden on those, but short of suggesting you poke around looking for a button that says "SCN" or high ISO (that seems to access the additional features on the P&S cams!), not sure what else to suggest - IF the WB and scene options are there on your VG20, they may only be accessible when you're in "just the right mode"...

The manual wasn't much help, but I'm familiar enough with Sony cameras and features that I've tried to "fill in the blanks", at least give you some possible things to try anyhow! And again, it's possible this doesn't have final firmware - with all the chaos and natural disasters, I think Sony is just desperately trying to keep product on the shelves, and QC may be suffering.

Early reviews of the A77 (on roughly the same release schedule as the VG20) and the NEX7 (was on the same schedule, now delayed because of the Thai floods) were with "unfinished" firmware, and the reviews suffered because of it - Sony may be trying to avoid that with the VG20, particularly since it's not exactly a "hot" product to begin with... while still meeting original shipping schedules.

I wouldn't give up just yet - the camera looks pretty good image wise, although I too am in the "overpriced" camp, especially when considering the NEX5n...

Yes, but no specific date given. I figured I will call back tomorrow if I hear nothing.

Chris - did you hear back from them yet?

BTW - watched your youtube vid of trying to find the sharpness/scene color settings - I Don't think you left any stone unturned.

Thanks for putting in all the work you've done.

I spoke with Charlie at support again today. He indicates it is looking like the listed features is a market snaffu and that the camera is not intended to have the feature I had been asking about. He said that he would have confirmation soon on that issue.

What I find more troubling are the "missing" scene modes and the apparently shortened WB menu, particularly since these features ARE a part and parcel of the NEX/Alpha lines, and even the current crop of P&S cams that shoot video... and they ARE available when shooting video! I know that the "scene" modes are buried and hidden on those, but short of suggesting you poke around looking for a button that says "SCN" or high ISO (that seems to access the additional features on the P&S cams!), not sure what else to suggest - IF the WB and scene options are there on your VG20, they may only be accessible when you're in "just the right mode"...

.

As I mentioned above, from my conversation with the support guy, he seems to be getting the word that the functions aren't intended to in the camera. And I think we can understand why. My experience with the camera thus far is that I am getting some great shots with it, given the fact I am new to the NEX series. The added features would seal the deal for me. Right now, I am going to do some work seeing if I can work inside the Cineform Firstlight process to get what I want. If so, I will likely keep the camera.

Chris,

Does the camera have the variable frame rates it's suppose to have? And if so, have you've shot in either 24P, 30P, or 60P? And again, if so, can you tell me if the footage in any of those framerates looks either good or great? Also, how is the sound with the camcorder? Do you recommend using the on-camera mic or a shotgun mic with a XLR adapter?

Ozzy:

My primary interest is 24p, but I have briefly tested the other frame rates. If you check out golf scene at the end of this piece, it show a 60p scene. Problem is it was reduced to 24p for the upload.

MiscVG20shots.mp4 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VssbNNKiK0)

I have no doubt that these frame rate will look fine.

Well folks, I talked to support again today. Mike, at third level support stated that it was confirmed that the features were not in the camera, and that the matter was referred to marketing. He could do nothing for. He did provide me with a number to Sony Store to contact raise the matter there.

In the meantime, despite support advising them of the error, Sony's ad at the store continues to list the missing menu items as available on the camera.

This is confirmed over on Vimeo, where another VG20 owner reports a similar conversation with Sony support: Is it true that vg20 is missing basic picture controls ? - Sony NEX-VG20 User Group forum on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/groups/nexvg20/forumthread:248610)

Interestingly, in that conversation, the Sony rep "...confirmed that the Creative Styles, and the AdobeRGB/sRGB features were missing, and that it would take a few days to "correct". They didn't know if correction would involve rewriting the specs, or issuing firmware to bring the camera up to the specs."

Hopefully, they'll choose the firmware upgrade!

Again, appreciate your work on this, Chris.

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution (http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com)

Again, I'd speculate that the Sensor and Bionz chips in the VG20 SHOULD be the same as are found in the NEX 5n, so it seems strange that the features found in that camera are MIA. Only explanation would be they just didn't think a consumer oriented "videocamera" needed those extra bells and whistles, and they left out the user interface to access the "hooks" in the hardware.

It would be my guess that if there's enough "squawking", there could be a tweaked firmware made available rather easily. Sony is already releasing updates for the A77/A65/NEX 7, whether they will do something for the VG20 is up for a gamble...

This is confirmed over on Vimeo, where another VG20 owner reports a similar conversation with Sony support: Is it true that vg20 is missing basic picture controls ? - Sony NEX-VG20 User Group forum on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/groups/nexvg20/forumthread:248610)

Interestingly, in that conversation, the Sony rep "...confirmed that the Creative Styles, and the AdobeRGB/sRGB features were missing, and that it would take a few days to "correct". They didn't know if correction would involve rewriting the specs, or issuing firmware to bring the camera up to the specs."

Hopefully, they'll choose the firmware upgrade!

Again, appreciate your work on this, Chris.

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution (http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com)

I posted over there a few minutes back.

Well I went to Vimeo site today, and read what H. Paul Moon, the moderator of the a VG10/VG20 forum there had originally posted. He was very disrespectful of us here at DVInfo.

His comment about DVInfo was:

"FOLKS: Evidently the thing that set this panic in motion was the preceding panic over at dvinfo.net that is unfounded. It reminds me why I never visit that site anymore; there are experts mixed in with misleading amateurs there."

Even more shocking was his next statement a few sentences down. After saying he wasn't apologizing for Sony, he wrote:

"Lastly, let's make room for a related debate: that any serious production work does not fiddle with (or at that, limit) the look of footage in-the-field. A proper stage of color grading, that includes separate tasks of luma and chroma correction, are due diligence for anything you shoot. You're better off aiming for faithfulness in-the-field, and later dialing into the look you want during post (especially for the flexibility to change your mind later, establish continuity, etc.)." see second post in this thread:

Is it true that vg20 is missing basic picture controls ? - Sony NEX-VG20 User Group forum on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/groups/nexvg20/forumthread:248610)

I subsequently posted in detail about my experience with a plethora of cameras, my time and DVInfo, and I specifically commented about his apparent belief that we needed to shoot everything faithfully so we wouldn't lose anything in post. I brought up the fact that RED and other cinema shooting camera clearly don't follow his advise.

I also posted extensive Youtube links to all the testing I had posted.

All of that was pulled by Mr. Moon, and he has now locked the thread, stating:

"H. Paul Moon locked this topic on Nov 15, 2011 because - This has gotten out of hand, really for the first time in over a year that this forum has existed. And really, the chatter is originating from a mere trio, among the over 1k participants here and at the hybrid group.

There is no inconsistency whatsoever between the published manual and the included features. There were minor misprints on NEX-VG20 feature lists from Sony marketing that have been, already are, or will be corrected.

However, the majority of features alleged to be missing were never, ever intended for video mode -- and in the year of discussion about the NEX-VG10, no one ever got confused about this. So, e.g., there is no DRO or HDR mode during video shooting, because that's obviously a technology which involves shooting consecutive still photographs. Just one example.

ALL questions on this matter can be resolved by referring to the owner's manual at:

nexvg20.info/​NEXVG20_manual.pdf"

Were one to want to defend Sony, this would be the way to go -- claim the missing functions are not critical.

One may not NEED to make such adjustments in the field, and PERHAPS they should be done in post.

But, in practice Sony and most everyone else includes these functions because SOME do want to establish a look in the field and reduce the amount of effort in post.

And, in some cases these controls make a camera able to be used. For example, my Pana FZ100 like most cameras tends to blow out sky. Turns-out the VIBRANT setting alters gamma and enables the camera to capture nice blue sky. Who knew?

Being able to adjust Contrast alters whether some cameras clip at 100% or 110%.

Sharpness, which I never lower, can be vital for some who plans to transfer to film.

Frankly, I think the features were intended to be in the camera. I think it was lost. My guess is that it will be added. But, if the missing makes the camera not what you want, then you might want to return and wait.

I still think I'd wait until the NEX-7 arrives. Sony will let you order two cameras.

I'm the kind of person that doesn't really do much tweaking in camera other than exposure and white balance, but I'd like the option of matching the 5n. Is that too much to ask for a camera with the same chip and processor?

I'd been following the 5n since release, and have seen many impressive videos in the anticipation that the vg20 could do the same thing in a more comfortable video shooter form factor.

As I understand it, the 5n performs its manual settings in photo mode, and then you roll video, and your settings are preserved, with the exception of iso's over 3200.

I can understand the inclusion of a video centric menu system, simplified to controls typical of a video cam. But as it is a hybrid cam why would they not make it so you can roll video from within photo mode like any other hybrid camera including their own low end models.

I mention this because I personally would like to be able to use the vg-20 and 5n together, but if they cannot be set up to match how would this work. You'd need a cheat sheet for iso vs gain. For times you need to tweak settings, your 'toy' cam would become the A-cam, how silly is that.

I'm still in wait and see mode, as there is no real substitute on the market yet. I don't shoot enough to pay down a pro level product. I want a large chip video cam that shoots 24p, has mic and head phone, a screen that shows what you'll get with zebras before you roll. No dslr has this, and panasonic and canon have not released anything yet.

"H. Paul Moon locked this topic on Nov 15, 2011 because - This has gotten out of hand, really for the first time in over a year that this forum has existed. And really, the chatter is originating from a mere trio, among the over 1k participants here and at the hybrid group.

There is no inconsistency whatsoever between the published manual and the included features. There were minor misprints on NEX-VG20 feature lists from Sony marketing that have been, already are, or will be corrected.

However, the majority of features alleged to be missing were never, ever intended for video mode -- and in the year of discussion about the NEX-VG10, no one ever got confused about this. So, e.g., there is no DRO or HDR mode during video shooting, because that's obviously a technology which involves shooting consecutive still photographs. Just one example."

Censorship always stings, esp when it's totally unwarranted. Obviously the omission of those features isn't minor, nor are they features meant only for still shooting (they're available on every other modern $500 plus camera, including Sony's own 5n/VG10). I defended you Chris, as well as this forum, when he threw you under the bus.

I believe Moon works for Sony - he had access to clips long before anyone else did at any extent, and he seems hyper sensitive to even the slightest negative comment about Sony. If he does work for Sony, it's yet another bit of anti-consumer friendly behavior from a company already notorious for such action.

This has really soured me on Sony. Bad enough to cripple a long awaited camera, and bad enough to falsely advertise it - but to bad mouth well meaning and justifiably concerned customers - as well as this forum - is going too far.

I've done so already Chris, but thank you again for all the hard work you've put in on this. You've saved many people a great deal of disappointment.

I don't think there's any excessive negativity towards Sony... it's fair to discuss why a $700 camera has certain features that, while the camera is oriented towards "stills", also can translate to the cameras video modes, and a $2700 camera with the same tech under the hood lacks those same potentially useful features!

I think it will become even tougher when the NEX 7 becomes readily available. VG10's are already selling pretty cheap, almost worth it to pick one up for the 18-200 lens... the VG's are a very "niche" oriented design, and as such Sony should be ADDING as many features as possible to make the product more attractive, rather than deleting features that a camera that costs far less INCLUDES.

I don't think there's been any unfairness here, aside from perhaps some misunderstanding over DRO/HDR... understandable if you aren't familiiar with "crossover" cameras and Sony designs.

The question remains the same - if the internal hardware has the capabilities, which I strongly suspect it does, why keep the user from the ability to use the camera to its fullest? Update the firmware to match the capablities of the 5n and leave it to that...

I still am leaning towards the NEX 7, or If I stumble onto a cheap 5n... smaller, lighter, and gee whiz, more features enabled, all at a more affordable price... I'm pretty much just as comfortable with the NEX form factor as with a "traditional video camera".

I can't see how the VG20 justifies its price point, any more than the VG10 did (and in the secondary market you already see it selling at a big discount... more in line with bang/$ ratio). Still, it is a very "sexy" looking camera...

Hi John:

Yeah followed it, and thanks for sticking up for us there. I think your were probably considered one of the trio. I did take him to task for what he said about DVInfo. But it got pulled. I guess I should have saved it.

In a knee jerk reaction, I started my own VG20 Film Makers Forum there on Vimeo:

Sony NEX VG20 Film Makers on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/groups/115787)

I do like this camera in a whole lot of ways, and I guess that means I will be keeping it, despite the flaw.

Chris - is it the ease of use (vs the Mark II) or the picture quality which has you sold?

The two cameras seem very close in terms of video quality (judging by your footage from both) - bottom line quesiton - do you think it's worth the $1,600 as an upgrade over the current Canon DSLR lineup or to someone who might be mulling over buying one vs the other?

I just want the camera that is advertised by sony, not the one they delivered. I'm not confused by features that are only possible in photo mode.

The 'Sony Style' spec sheet clearly identifies specific features that are photo mode only, leaving to assume that everything else is available to video mode. Color palate picture styles and white balances that include fluorescent and shady are not unreasonable expectations on a top of the line unit. My 4 year old canon hv20 has all those white balance settings, and I can tell you that they are quite handy, you don't always have a white card in your pocket.

Style wise it is quite sexy and I can see it being sold to low end wedding/event shooters that can't afford the FS-100. It is much nicer than those cheezy shoulder cams they make.

I mention this because I personally would like to be able to use the vg-20 and 5n together, but if they cannot be set up to match how would this work. You'd need a cheat sheet for iso vs gain. For times you need to tweak settings, your 'toy' cam would become the A-cam, how silly is that.
.
______________________________________________________________________________________

Im exactly in the same position. I own a NEX 5N, and was eagerly awaiting the VG20 so I could match the two "videos" without having to go through extensive CC. I currently use the 5N and a Canon XHA1. It's a pain to CC one to match the other. The A1 makes great video, but I was looking forward to getting rid of the "weight,tape,and DOF limitations".

Im seriously thinking about getting a VG10. I will wait a while to see if the VG20 gets the firmware update. Although I doubt that will happen.

Jeff

Chris - is it the ease of use (vs the Mark II) or the picture quality which has you sold?

The two cameras seem very close in terms of video quality (judging by your footage from both) - bottom line quesiton - do you think it's worth the $1,600 as an upgrade over the current Canon DSLR lineup or to someone who might be mulling over buying one vs the other?

I believe the image is actually better that the 5D in terms of potential for noise and aliasing/moire. What bothers a lot of people is that the bitrate of the 5D at 38 mbs v. Sony at 24 mbs may leave something to be desired. However, I think a lot has to do with how efficient the codec has been programmed. I still haven't done enough color correction work to be fair about it, but I am liking what I see so far, and I am willing to work with the camera at this point. I just think it has a lot of potential. And it is so much easier to use in terms of what we normally expect from a video camera. Pluses over 5 D Mark II include autofocus when needed, zebras, cleaner grain, quick custom white balancing, electronic viewfinder when handheld, swivel lcd, etc. Biggest negative, less control of settings.

Hi All,

I new here, so first a very quick intro. I've been a serious still photographer since 1965 (Nikon rules). I only got into video last year. I bought a VG10 in December and have to say that, after a difficult start, I love the camera. I have a number of early efforts here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/CarfreeCities?feature=mhee

and here:

http://vimeo.com/jhcrawford/videos

all shot with the VG10.

I'm cautious about "missing features," because it took me months to discover how many things were actually possible with the VG10. I cam to tolerate the user interface pretty well and eventually found that I could get pretty good results in full auto mode, which allowed me to concentrate on getting footage. I have also learned that some things are better shot in manual, which is difficult with the VG10.

The paper manual included with the VG20 is simply awful and in places incomprehensible. The longer on-line PDF is actually not bad and cleared up a couple of points.

I have now had TWO VG20's in my hands. The first one went back after a few days, and I've only had the second one for a few days. The reason for the return of the first one was that the touch screen didn't seem to work properly. The second one works better, but I have learned that it's not a touch-sensitive screen but a pressure-sensitive screen. Still, the screen in both cameras seemed to wobble more than it should when pressed.

The menu chain feels very clumsy to me and requires many presses to do anything, and then usually takes me farther away from where I was than I wanted to be once I'm done with one function (and wanting to adjust another near by).

As an example of "missing features," I first thought that the VG20 had no way to adjust auto-focus mode. Then I discovered that the Focus button is not a "focus now" button as I had thought but a way to control focus mode. So, problem solved. How many more of my problems will vanish as easily?

I would prefer to run the camera with the display screen folded up but only today realized that you can fold it up with the touch screen facing OUT.

I am starting to shoot mostly black & white, which the VG10 can do from the menu. I have a hunch that, as long as the camera does not have to record chroma data, it can output a higher-quality stream of video (or else a longer shooting time per card at the same quality). Yes, you can change it in Vegas, which is what I've been doing on the latest video, and that seems to work fine.

So, I may return the second camera for want of some features found on the VG10, but my bigger complaint at the moment is the ergonomics of the camer and all the missing buttons that served so well on the VG10.

It's a very odd situation. I think that speculation that Sony is a bit stunned in the wake of this year's disasters may be right on the money.

In any case, glad to be here and look forward to the disucsion. I'll try to be much briefer in the future.

I was out shooting with the VG20 today and had the shutter speed on the manual dial. The sound often seems to cut out completely when I'm adjusting the shutter.

I'm starting to conclude that this camera is at best a beta release, and it really does not seem to be ready for prime time.

Later, I took the VG10 into New York and got some excellent footage without any of the problems with the VG20. Why, I am asking myself, would I pay $1600 for this much trouble?