I expect many productions will take up the ProRes option, those external recorders are getting cheaper.

I think it was a great move for RED.

I placed an order and look forward to it making my business good money in 2012.

Not all productions want to use a RAW workflow, The Alexa has been a popular choice for TV productions using ProRES and even HDCAM SR rather than RAW.

How reliable the new camera is also remains to be seen. There are a number of factors to be considered when selecting a camera.

I've had an Epic and Red MX crash and overheat on me durIng several shoots. Very embarassing to me. Even though im still a Red fanatic, my faith in Red is lessened.

Best,
Greg

Not all productions want to use a RAW workflow,
to me it was the most important part of the deal, I've spend a lot of time playing with R3Ds- love that post production freedom;
I've been waiting for that camera for three years, I didn't get exactly what I've been waiting for, but no doubt Scarlet X is a very good deal, well, at least I'd love to think that way,
mine should start shipping Nov 17, as soon as I'll get it will post comparison to all cameras I have 1D, 5D, EX1 and maybe even G10 :))))
I'm excited

The post route is a decision made for each production. Many productions have little or no grading work done on them and that includes broadcast television.

I had a conversion with one cameraman regarding the 2/3" Scarlet for use on documentary programmes and he made the point that you wouldn't let some producers anywhere near RAW. Basically, they just wouldn't get it.

Yeah, for fast turnaround TV production, the heck with 4K and RAW. Consider all of NBC's Thursday night comedies. Not a one of them needs more than a basic scene matching grade.

But for documentaries, I liked the idea of 2/3" RAW. Focus wasn't perfect? No big deal. You grabbed the camera, set a close-enough exposure and didn't have time to set the color balance? It might be a bit noisy or blown out, but you got the shot and the colors look natural. You shot indoors, outdoors, and under every kind of light imaginable? No big deal, you can match your shots in post.

It's not that documentaries need extreme grading; it's that the material might be all over the place and you don't always have time to get it perfect. Often you don't know the story until after it's shot, so setting a fixed in-camera look might not be the best approach. (A doc about a celebrity honeymoon might change if the next morning, a dead body appears... Don't get any ideas, folks!)

I'm more of an S35 narrative guy, but I can really appreciate the disappointment that many feel about there being no 2/3" announcement this month. There's still a need for a 2/3" digital cinema cam.

I think it's more difficult to hold consistency with the LCDs you get on the cheaper cameras. With the higher end 2/3" cameras you can set up the V/F correctly and set the exposure manually quickly by eye. As one documentary cameraman I know put it "you set the exposure for what looks good".

mine should start shipping Nov 17, as soon as I'll get it will post comparison to all cameras I have 1D, 5D, EX1 and maybe even G10 :))))
I'm excited

How do you know when yours is shipping?

Just to verify, Scarlet is S35, not 2/3-inch, correct?

Heath

Correct -- it is the same size sensor as Epic X (in fact, they are factory seconds from the Epic X line).

Thanks for the clarification, Chris.

heath

How do you know when yours is shipping?
it's on the red site, AI Canon mount strat shipping Dec1, TI Canon mount start shipping Nov 17,
but with red everything is subject to change,
i guess :)

I won't believe it until people start receiving their RED Scarlets. Because anything can and HAS changed since NAB 2008.

Heath

Yes, RED start shipping on a certain date, but that doesn't mean they don't have a back log of orders. There are a number of products that RED have been shipping for a while, but people are still waiting to receive the item they've ordered.

So, you won't know your camera is shipping until RED confirm it's ready and want the balance of the payment.

oh yeah, that's why I say start shipment,
my rep told me Xmas at best

it's on the red site, AI Canon mount strat shipping Dec1, TI Canon mount start shipping Nov 17,
but with red everything is subject to change,
i guess :)

Here's my guess...
There was probably 1000-10,000 Scarlets ordered Nov 3rd I'd be surprised if Red could deliver more than 500 a month. I think when the Red One went out they were delivering 100/month (thats 2nd hand info though). I'm expecting to see mine (and I ordered it FAST) in March-May, and I'd be pretty damn happy if that was the case. If you ordered a day or two later...

Yep Scarlet looks like a decent deal, cool camera.
But I'm one of "those doc guys" that wants a pro-grade (ideally 10bit) 2/3 camera for around $5k, or less if possible.
There's already the F3 which is a good super35 cam in the $10-15k range, and there are decent $5k super35 cams with the AF100 and FS100.

But 2/3 or 16mm would be great for narrative filmmakers on a budget and documentary people. Just to get a decent parfocal zoom lens in the 2/3 or 16mm size is a lot easier to build, buy, and focus.

Still waiting for that. Now we have all these cool super35 cams but to get a decent modern 2/3 cam costs what, $18k?

I'd rather spend $4k on the body and $6k on a decent 16mm zoom then $12k on the body and then be stuck with primes because all the super35 zooms don't have much range and are crazy expensive.

The Ikonoskop RAW DII looks cool.. just wish it was half the price and came packaged with a 8x zoom like they were trying to do with the original 2/3. That Red 2/3 cam would have actually shaked things up... hope it still happens.

Chris,

I agree with your voice of reason. They would have had me at 2/3".

I think people would have been disappointed with low light performance at 2/3". I find 4/3 a nice compromise, I hope Panasonic continues with that size.

There's no question that the documentary community suffered when the 2/3 Scarlet product got the axe. Many would like an inexpensive alternative to shooting Super 16. Four thirds is nice (very nice), but there's a lot of S16 and 2/3" glass out there that begs to be used with a modern digital solution.

Hopefully, RED is aware of this market and fills the need - but more quietly than they did during the Scarlet saga.

I agree, 2/3" was going to be a win for me too. I gave up on Scarlet earlier this year as it just seemed like things were being held up for a reason. Now we know that reason.

The 2/3" chip broadcast market is such a core market for the larger companies that I do not hold out much hope for an inexpensive 2/3" camera. Red gave an opportunity as it is outside of this circle but I do not see this product from them any time in the near future.

All of these large chips flying around and all we want is 2/3" ! Seems like it would be easy to deliver but there is more involved.

I think people would have been disappointed with low light performance at 2/3". I find 4/3 a nice compromise, I hope Panasonic continues with that size.

RED were pushing how well the 2/3" looked at low light levels during demos at the various trade shows. How satisfied some people would be in reality is another matter, given the black cat in a dark coal cellar ISO's now available on the 35mm sensor cameras from Sony and Canon. In the end it really depends on the type of subject matter you film.

Considering how the F3 and probably the C300 are considerably better than Epic in low light I don't see how S35 Scarlet and especially the now defunct 2/3 Scarlet could be considered good under those conditions.
It's ironic but Scarlet may bring in users who are more publicly critical of some of the Red shortcomings. Red needs to get past the teething stage with the reliability of its cameras as a larger market with direct Japanese competitors won't be as forgiving as most of the current fan club.
For all the hoopla for Red specs the actual sensor performance/sophistication doesn't look particularly good compared to what Sony and now Canon do with their CMOS expertise.

There's a 3k 2/3" market out there, with quite a few high quality 16mm and Super 16 lenses out there to be used on productions. I suspect the price of these will have dropped a bit now that the 2/3" scarlet has been put on the back burner, at least for a while or until someone comes up with one.

All the current 2/3" single sensor cameras are 2k, which probably don't get the best for 1080p in resolution terms, but do still gather attention and are working on a number of films.

It's nice to have the option of the extreme ISOs, but practise as long as it's pretty clean at say 3,000 that will cover most productions.

Much of the 2/3" market is for live applications where one must balance low light performance with the ability to hit critical focus with an EVF. For live capture, whether it's studio news, ENG, sports, or events, it's a 1080 market, rather than a 4K market. RAW isn't helpful for live shoots in the moment. For RED to be successful in this segment, it needs to compete on live production features in the studio and for ENG-style shooting. Those requirements don't necessarily match the current EPIC modular approach.

3K isn't exactly right either. Frankly, Canon's C300 nailed it. With a true qHD sensor, one can simply read out the pixels for 1080 16x9. De-Bayer it and you can record 4K when needed.

There is certainly a 2/3" professional market. But Scarlet was originally designed for budget narrative shooters (and soccer moms). To be successful in 2/3", RED needs to focus on the traditional 2/3" market needs first with 4K, fast frame rates, RAW, and HDR as secondary features that happen to expand their reach to the filmmaker who wants a shallow DOF look.

I don't think soccer moms ever entered the equation other than as a good one liner. Much of the demand for 2/3" Scarlet seems to be as a 16mm film replacement, for those more personal pieces where the control of RAW can work, The live studio and ENG is well covered and doesn't really need or have the time for that level of post involvement.

What has been shown on the REDUser threads on the Scarlet is that not everyone wants a shallow DOF effect. This works with some stories, but not others, plus the increased risk of out of focus shots when filming fast moving subjects.

The fixed zoom Scarlet did offer a lot to those documentaries that in recent years have been shot on 1/3" cameras, often because the budgets didn't allow the use of more expensive cameras. I gather there was problems maintaining the focus as it zoomed, so there appears to be some more development required. Although, RED seemed to always be upbeat about this lens until after the new Scarlet was announced.

Personally I would welcome the 2/3" Scarlet with fixed lens. Frankly, I was waiting exactly for this, but at certain point it became obvious, that it is not going to happen. Which is a pity. As much as RED ONE was a disruptive technology, I fail to see current Scarlet as such. It is of course natural to try to increase one's yield by utilising chips that fall outside of spec, CPU companies do it all the time. But it's hardly a breakthrough in any way. A good analogy would be Intel i7 = EPIC, and i3 = Scarlet.

I think comparing 2/3" to new Canon or Epic is like comparing apples and oranges. I won't take C300 for a three weeks trip to Siberia, I won't take it to do ENG work or documentary about sport or martial arts events. Shallow DOF is not something you always want, and like other people said - there is a market for good, inexpensive 2/3" replacement of Super 16mm. To have a 2/3" sensor at 120 fps with HDR would be amazing, even if it only recorded 2K, and didn't have superb low-light peformance of 4/3".

There was a possibility to fill in that gap, but it looks like it's not going to happen, with RED being flooded with orders for their cameras. Perhaps other companies will step up, but I'm not holding my breath.

Thanks to everyone for their input.

Please continue the discussion at RED's official forum:

Reduser.net :: The online Community for digital filmmaking (http://www.reduser.net)

Much appreciated,