Does Canon ever talk to their customers?

Have I been product loyal in vain?

I think Canon got their foot in the door to Hollywood with the 5d mkII and decided to make a go of it by creating and releasing a much more expensive "pro" camera. Unfortunately they left us loyal customers on the other side of the door. :(

I always say "buy from the camera maker that makes what you want. Brand loyalty helps the brand, not you." One look at the Canon professional video line and it's clear, prosumers eat the scraps off the broadcast and cinema table... replete with a "little one" with codec compatibility.

IMHO, if one doesn't like shooting with a DSLR or the "little one" with its 10x zoom or can't see using the large XF300 Handycam, Canon isn't for you. There's other fish in the pond and some are pretty good. YMMV

About 2008 the current Canon MD basically stated that 'we'll give the customers what we think they want' Caused much negative discussion on the web.

Followed by the comments .. 'the video and still camera depts don't talk to each other' hence their DSLRs.

Maybe it's because their video cams are a very small part of their total camera market .. now maybe they are talking.

Cheers.

Does Canon ever talk to their customers?

Yup, I've been to many NABs and had lots of discussion.
Canon also monitors this list - you know it used to be the XL-1 WATCHDOG?

So, the question is not if they talk, but do they LISTEN and HEAR and ACT?
I think the USA side probably does, but is overruled by the hierarchy in Japan.

Those leaders move at the pace of a 95 year old with severe arthritis.
This 300 was asked for years and years ago. Had it even come out
two years ago it would have been big. But now? Not so much.

WMMV, - I'm going SCARLET.

J

Have I been product loyal in vain?

I don't get brand loyalty at all... The purpose of the company is to take your money, not to be your buddy. They aren't doing you a favour by making cameras... why should you give them your money for any reason but because their camera is the best one for you?

I'm old school. Brand Loyalty was something that manufactures and corporations went out of their way to gain and cherish. They built products that would last, and if there was a problem, they honored their warranties. They valued you as a customer.

I guess in this new world throw away economy, Brand Loyalty is a thing of the past.

It's not you Dave, it's them. They broke ranks.

I don't see it related to a throw away economy. It's the suits and the values they hold. You can't put brand loyalty in a spreadsheet. The closest you'll find are numbers in the marketing program to manipulate people into feeling loyal but that's a one way street. IMHO.

Hmmmmmm

The Panasonic AG-HPX250 looks interesting.

I have never owned any Panasonic products before.

Why are you guys unhappy? You asked Canon to build a large sensor video camera that accepts Canon DSLR or PL mount lenses, and they delivered. It has a very good codec, broadcast ready, no need for external drives. It has HD/SDI and HDMI out. It's small and compact. What's not to like?

If you wanted a price in the $5-6,000 range, well, perhaps that was unreasonable. I keep seeing posts saying the camera should be around $10,000. Oh, really? Name another camera with these specs for under $16,000. There isn't one. The F3? Sure, it's comparable in price, but it has that 4:2:0 EX codec. For serious broadcast work, you'll need an external drive. The C300 won't.
The Scarlet? It can do 4K. Again, the complete kit is around $14-15,000. Still way above $5,000 (AF100 territory) and even $10,000. Maybe the camera you dream about simply can't be produced for under $14,000. At least, no company has done it yet.

A good, inexpensive option is to get an AF/FS100 and add a Canon adapter (when they come out) and an external drive. That should be a very good kit for well under $10,000.

+1 Glen

It'll probably sell closer to Red's new camera street $ anyway. Also, there could be/will be a C200 with about 80% of the new good stuff minus a few more pro features that could sell under 10K if I'm thinking about this correctly.

Certainly Canon wants to make some noise with this and the price and could spit out a press release any day with a new model with XYZ features. (Fingers crossed anyway) I think Canon will do that.

I see 2 things.

1. They keep bragging that "this is the camera that everyone shooting with the 5DM2 wanted" and has all the workarounds and issues "fixed." This sets the stage for a body that's comparable to a $2,500 price point. I don't see any indy filmmakers shooting with 7D's and 5DM2's upgrading to this—period. Sure, it can us EF glass, but the C300 cost 10x more than the 5D bodies do now. It's only 8bit out HD-SDI. That's pretty limiting in itself. Last I checked, the Sony F3 body is at B&H for $13k after rebates.

2. Canon announced all this before Red's little meeting and Scarlet X release. I'm pretty sure the market is going to react to a $10k body ($14k system) that shoots 4K footage. I'm betting the F3 will go down in price to compete soon after Scarlets start shipping. Red Epic purchasers are a little miffed at the price point and feature set as well, so you know something's gonna happen if it's making waves in Red's own pool. Canon is going to have to respond with a lower price point, or resellers won't be able to get rid of them. I see $10-12k being street price. Ease of use will have to sell it over all of Red's 4K marketing numbers. Otherwise, it won't be selling soon.

What would have made the C300 a killer cam would have been:
4:4:4 out Dual HD-SDI, 1080p60 (at least) and 120fps at 720p.

I've loved all my Canon products over the years, but I don't need to spend so much to get less than others. MAYBE it can shoot like ARRI, but I can't tell from Vimeo. I work in post and I know, no matter what kind of 8bit it is, it's sure not 10bit or uncompressed. And for $20k, it should have been.

Glen, I said nothing of the C300. Dave's not talking about the F3 segment either. In previous discussions, he's typically lamenting segment below the XF300. I'm not going to put words in his mouth but that's been what previous discussions were about. The XF100 with it's 10x zoom and single lens ring just doesn't cut it for A1 users like Dave. Neither does the $7k XF300. So he's waited another development cycle and still nothing, just a 12-minute limit on his 60D. At least those are my impressions.

Why are you guys unhappy? You asked Canon to build a large sensor video camera that accepts Canon DSLR or PL mount lenses, and they delivered. It has a very good codec, broadcast ready, no need for external drives. It has HD/SDI and HDMI out. It's small and compact. What's not to like?

If you wanted a price in the $5-6,000 range, well, perhaps that was unreasonable.

.

The expectation was there because it was a reasonable assumption it was an easy migration from the XF 100 series, starting a $2,900 to adding a large chip to the same design. Cannon chose to join the fray against Sony and Red instead at that level. They may have met your budget needs, but not mine. As simple as that.

On the XF series canon has tended to work backwards, with the high end camera first. Although, I'm not too sure which way they can go with the XF codec with a new large sensor camera, unless it's one with a lower pixel count, without the production volume that the FS100/F3 combination has.

Since Canon seem to be tied into the DSLR form factor, they may be relying on an upgraded video mode on their next models to met the needs of the current 5DII owners. I assume the upcoming DSLRs that shoot 4k 24p Motion-jpeg footage are intended to met that market. http://www.fdtimes.com/news/canon/canon-4k-dslrcine-camera/

Although, it could a different animal entirely.

After waiting over three years, I am now actively looking at buying my first non Canon product in eight years.

I could afford to spend $20K on a camera but I'd want a camera that was properly designed as a cinema/moving image camera, NOT some weird DSLR adaptation!

As I wrote in another thread, this quote says it all: "The two years that were spent in research and development on this camera were lead by a member of Canon USA’s still photography EOS team. "

Why? It isn't a stills camera, it is supposed to be a cinema camera. Had this guy ever shot film and video on anything but a DSLR? You can still make a camera compact AND ergonomic if you understand what you are designing. The JVC HD100 line has great ergonomics and with a few design improvements such a design could be very adaptable and compact without adding much extra cost.

I have a little XF100 which I use as a lightweight expedition camera for when my PMW350 is too large. Although not perfect, it's a great little camera and for it's price and size I can forgive its problems. However the C300 appears majorly over priced and poorly designed. What is with the VF? How do you handhold it with a heavy zoom? Sure you can bolt it to a rig but then you need a new VF or monitor = more faff and more money on an already overpriced camera.

Price wise, obviously there is R&D on the new sensor but the guts are all from the XF300. Can the sensor really cost that much to produce when they can put a similarly capable sensor in a £500 stills camera? I very much doubt it. Remember this is over $10K more than an XF300 and that camera includes a fairly decent zoom lens. I think Canon would have been better going for economies of scale at a much lower price point - $6K ish. I think they would have then sold shed loads. At $20K I see no reason to choose this over an F3 which itself is far from perfect.

David

My guess is they want to break into the market and become established as leaders. By making this camera they feel will be king. Any new cameras developed from this can rest on its laurels and the technology they developed can work its way down to lower levels.

I think their marketing campaign though has confused many who thought they were bringing in something a lot cheaper.

There is a possibility they made a turkey with the C300 and it's 8bit HDSDI out which wont go down well with pro's in my opinion and cameras like the F3 Red Scarlet have nothing to worry about.

As for talking to their customers they did They made a camera that would replace the mark 2 I guess they figured if those customers can afford a stills camera that costs nearly £2000 then they can surely afford a video camera at £20,000 either that or it was just easier to add another nought.

Seriously though They have given Consumer customers what they want at a price they can't afford and pro's a camera they can afford but wont want in my opinion.

Red where for art thou Red. We'll see. :)

"They have given Consumer customers what they want at a price they can't afford and pro's a camera they can afford but wont want in my opinion."

+1, that pretty much sums it up perfectly. You have won the internet today sir, well done.

I wouldn't say pros don't want it, for certain jobs it'll be an ideal tool, but even for pros the price is currently too high for what the camera is offering, It's slightly more expensive than a F3 fitted with a Nanoflash, which it should be undercutting.

I think their marketing campaign though has confused many who thought they were bringing in something a lot cheaper. There has been no marketing campaign for this camera... yet. I'm sure we can expect one to begin now that it has been announced.

Maybe I got the defination wrong. Maybe it was my perception only.

So what did Canon do to cause all this furore? Nothing more than a simple message that something historic big and groundbreaking would happen on Nov 3rd which even prompted Red to announce their Scarlet on the SAME day. Marketing campaign or not. It was certainly a manouvre designed to shake the market. Rock the world.
And was everyone focused on Nov 3rd and their product. Did many hold off buying a new camera. Some sold their cameras in anticipation of buying one. Me I already had been on the phone to put my order in. Is that the defination of a succesful marketing campaign? To have customers pre ordering something that still hadn't been officially announced. Although Creative video did have its major specs on its site and Im sure it said 10 bit out. So I called them and asked to be put me at the head of the queue.

Did they get people excited, garner interest and looking forward to a date to see their product. And were they sucessful in their activities designed to promote its product and the process used to determine how the camera will be of interest to customers, and the strategy to use in sales to the perceived needs and wants of their customers as the means of staying profitable as well as making numerous demonstration films ready for the launch which now had everyones attention. I stayed up here in the UK waiting for them to sell it to me. I'd never ever do that normally.

Was this a deliberate very smart campaign or just a simple message to annouce a product or just a simple error in its Historic groundbreaking message that really meant historic for the company only. Would they have noticed the internet perception that had got it wrong. Maybe they could have explained Historic mean't "for our company." The message was for us (Canon) not you? Why didn't they correct it? Or did they take the philophosy that anyone who misinterprets it it's their own fault for reading to much into it. So on that basis is Red in the same category as me and everyone else who misinterpreted it?

Maybe It might be more accurate in describing it as the beginning of a marketing campaign from Nov 3rd. Or maybe only count the defination of the marketing campaign as and when the products hit the stores and customers begin to part with money. Because as of yet this could just be a marketing test and the price could change. Maybe even technical issues like 10 bit out resolved.

If this wasn't a good marketing campaign, and I think it was because I was drawn sucker like all through the waiting. The Specs released here and there. There I was open mouthed drooling ready to part with me cash. Then once hypnotised by the bright lights of cammie heaven.... - WHAMMO - The price. The bottom line. The hard sell... $20,000 It was at this point reality caught up and the other halfs voice ringing in my ears. "Wake up Wake up Reality's this side of the computer screen."

I don't know I'm at a loss. Okay No marketing campaign yet then. Only a release date and product description!

One thing I'm pretty sure of. Companies like Canon and the like have to build a bond of trust between themselves and consumers. If another Camera manufacturer says something similar No one is likely to believe it.

And was everyone focused on Nov 3rd and their product. Did many hold off buying a new camera. Some sold their cameras in anticipation of buying one.
Well, I was amongst the first to say that post-announcement, anyone would be silly to buy something like an FS100 before the Nov 3rd, unless there was a pressing and immediate need for a specific project. But to sell your existing camera, in preparation for a new camera that nobody knew any details of?

"Premature" might be the first word that springs to mind......

Holding off on a purchase is one thing, selling existing kit on the basis of little more than optimism quite another.

I never would but I have been without a camera for a while because my other half had a car accident and I had to sell my camera to help her and so I had to save and when it came to buying a new camera I held off because of this announcement. The problem is if you think that your camera is about to become history because of a new replacement Should you try to sell it before its value goes down. I think many sighed a breath of relief when the C300 was not what we thought it would be simply because their gear maintained its value. Trading in old gear for the next technological advance is important for many on a budget. Normally advances in bells and whistles are meaningless but the larger sensors are a big enough advance to warrant an upgrade for those wishing to create a film look and move away from the adapters.. The option has been there for a while to buy an SDLR but trying to shoot a film with one is not something I want to mess about with. So far the AF100 and the FS100 have failed to sway me.

So I'm kinda stuck in limbo land now and the only real alternative is to buy another EX1 and use the letus or save up another £3000 for the Red Scarlet which from others experience has had a lot of problems with cameras not working. This will also leave me without a camera for longer.

If going for the RED Scarlet I'd put in the order now, the price is going up in 2012.

If going for the RED Scarlet I'd put in the order now, the price is going up in 2012.

So, rumors are that the Canon list price is going to go down, and the Scarlet will go up?

So does anyone know what the predicted price of the C300 & Scarlet will be in 2012?

....

So what did Canon do to cause all this furore?

Three years of being asked to simply remove the DSLR hindrances from large sensor video.
They couldn't be bothered meeting that request for those buyers. Instead they went "historic" at Paramount for a new group of potential customers.

Simon, it's no rumor that the Scarlet price will go up -- RED said so itself (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?65760-SCARLET-ANNOUNCEMENT....&p=855512&viewfull=1#post855512) that it would, starting January 1st.

As for the C300, in all honesty I don't think Canon even knows what it will sell for in 2012.

According to one thread on REDUser, the Scarlet is going up in price in the New Year and they quoted the price. Unfortunately, I can't remember the precise figure and there's so much verbage on the site, it takes a lot of hunting to find this sort of detail again. RED are currently taking deposits for the camera, so it could be one of their early buyer schemes.

Canon themselves mightn't apparently reduce their price, but there's no reason why the dealers have to charge it. How much they reduce it by I guess would depend on how much room to manoeuvre they've got and how much the F3 or Scarlet is affecting their sales.

Of course, RED products are bought from the manufacturer, which cuts out the dealer in the pricing chain. Factory shops are always cheaper than retail.

I can't remember the precise figureSee the link in my previous post for the precise figure.

The price for the scarlet is only going up like 100 dollars to the best of my knowledge. I read price increase and was about to flip, but when I saw the number it was only incremental. Ill see if I can find it.

Here, I'll spell it out for you. Once again, direct from the top at RED (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?65760-SCARLET-ANNOUNCEMENT....&p=855512&viewfull=1#post855512):

Price for Scarlet-X, including Brain, Side SSD and Canon aluminum mount (auto-focus support) is $9,750 if ordered before December 31st, 2011. After Jan. 1st, 2012 the price for Scarlet will be $9700 for the Brain only.

The difference is the separate cost of the lens mount (aluminum, I figure its value to be appx. $500)
and the SSD module (value $1,500), minus $50. So the difference between buying it before Jan. 1st.
vs. after is $1,950.00, thereabouts.

I've posted this many times.....CanonUSA has quite a few people reading/monitoring these and other blogs ( met with them over the 3 day period). Canon Japan has been reading this blog religiously since 2008. As for the title of this thread, it has been pointed out numerous times AND in the C300 press release, that they talked with 150+ ASC, SOC, etc, qualified DPs on this camera. These people are the best in this business and these cameras are directed right at them.....so I don't understand what the problem is......they were asked to produce a camera based on the input from these qualified professionals and Canon delivered.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

I think it really comes down to the price of the camera at $20k with an 8 bit recording codec. One ASC member thought it should be "10-bit 4:4:4 1080P Log if not RAW" at this price.

I guess this indicates how things have progressed over the last few months with the F3 and now the Scarlet. I've read positive things about the images from high end professionals who attended the screenings.

Jim I don't think it hurts if Canon reads what people think. Isn't that the best way. Most really like this camera and would love to own one. I would It has a wonderful picture I really like it as I'm sure many do. and many mark 2 customers can't afford it. Many who owned the Canon mark 2 wouldn't be using the mark 2 if you could afford an F3. People didn't use the mark 2 instead of the F3 so if you make a camera more expensive than an f3 your sure to lose a lot of mark 2 customers who would love to move up to a Canon camera designed for film making. Do you realise that many are upset because they feel left out. That's a good thing isn't it? People desire the product.

The problem with the C300 I can see for the professionals this is aimed at is the 8 bit HDSDI. You see even at the lower end I want the 10 bit out to grade footage not in camera where its a step that can't be undone because its then recorded at 8 bit. You can say yes you can grade 8 bit footage but things have moved on now Grading footage has become very popular All the NLE's cater for this and so do colourist programs like magic bullet Colorista etc.If you took your footage to a professional colourist I'm sure they would be happy to grade 8 bit but would probably tell you the virtues of next time bringing in 10 bit.You can't just dismiss an entire film making step like grading It in itself is an essential part of many productions as well as dismissing all those professionals involved in it

I fthink there is a gap in the market right now for a 10 bit large sensor camera that has ND filters The C300 doesn't do 10 bit out even at $20,000 Many can't understand why they did this while still acknowledging what a great and amazing piece of kit it is.

Okay I'm only speaking for myself and I got over the fact fairly quickly that the camera was not what I was expecting and can see that it did get a lot of interest. Fine I moved on and have been looking closely at the Ikonoskop today and spent many hours downloading footage and making tests only to find at the end PLUS 25% VAT taking this up to near enough the same price as a scarlet. Arrgh I give up. I bet though if you ask most here what they think of the Canon the answer would be love it love it.

Also they are bringing out another stills camera with the technology from the C300 so maybe that's something that will appease many on the lower end of the scale even if it has 8 bit out!

I would look at it this way....Canon was given their first assignment by the DPs of Hollywood...and they delivered...once this one is launched, they will have additional assignments and will work on those. I expect they will next roll out a 4K camera and then, possibly later a lower priced unit....that's just me guessing.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

The XF300 was followed later by the XF100. Hoping here for a C100.

Can't wait and IMO they'll make far more yen selling that baby than their 300, even at a lower price. It'll have to have a few more features on it, like XLR mic inputs.

It'll be interesting to see what are Sony and Panasonic doing about it.

Cheers.

The C300 does have XLR mic inputs, just they're not that obvious in the photographs.Seemingly they're on the LCD attachment.

The thing I don't get is all the hue and cry over an announcement of SPECS.

Those are all well and good. But it's like dating a girl based on a photo and a page of measurements. It says nothing about the critical factors of personality and "fit" with your individual wants and needs. As with dating, you've got to physically approach and interact with the camera and figure out if it works for YOU.

What do it's pictures look like? How does the new chip configuration handle smear, color, whip pans, low light, bright light - when you pull the cards and put them in the reader, does your software SEE them? Or do you have to wait for some new EOS utility or Transcode process to plug into your FCP-X or Premier Pro or AVID software?

How will all this work.

People are condemning or praising this based on the initial marketing announcements. If these are like ALL the other marketing announcements I've ever seen, the companies job is to make it look like the best thing since sliced bread - and the blogosphere's job (seems) to be to gleefully point out why whatever it is, it's clearly the single most evil thing since the advent of herpes.

The truth is that what makes cameras succeed is whether the people who can afford a particular camera design, begin to use it, and find that the process is SATISFYING. If it is, those cameras do fine. If they do not, they fail. And that has only a little to do with the specs on the page.

Put simpler, anyone who thinks the pleasure of making a satisfying creative work is exclusively baked into the tools is a fool. The tools enable you to cross a creative threshold that you establish for yourself based on your training and sensitivity. If 5 cameras meet your threshold, the choice between them becomes trivial - in exactly the way that an excellent piano player can play a Steinway, a Yamaha, or a Bosendorfer and adapt to the peculiarities of the instrument and be satisfied.

Canon appears to have put out a nice, reasonably priced (tho not super-cheap by design) new camera. How it's footage actually looks and whether people can adapt easily to how it operates are the intangibles that are actually in play here.

And discussing them too much before enough people actually USE the cameras is, IMO, kinda dumb.

FWIW.

The C300 does have XLR mic inputs, just they're not that obvious in the photographs.Seemingly they're on the LCD attachment.

Really! thanks, missed 'em in the hoopla :)

Bill, I agree but based on the Sword posted here by Chris .. and my laptop :( This new 300 looks to be getting away from the basic 'cold' Canon look and more towards the Panasonic look .. my 2 cents.

Cheers.

This new 300 looks to be getting away from the basic 'cold' Canon look and more towards the Panasonic look .. my 2 cents.
But nowadays, isn't the "look" of any half-way decent camera really only a factor of out of the factory line-up? A big change in the last couple of decades is that previously only the very top end models could be extensively tweaked ex-factory - now it's possible with any half-decent prosumer model upwards?

So a few tweaks on the menu and a Canon camera gets the "look" of a Panasonic one, and vice versa?

The C300 does have XLR mic inputs, just they're not that obvious in the photographs. Seemingly they're on the LCD attachment.

The press photos don't show it that well... see these pics instead (click to embiggen).

The monitor / XLR unit can be positioned in a variety of angles.

People are condemning or praising this based on the initial marketing announcements.


I agree that the very limited specifications released by camera manufacturers only tell part of the story. But sometimes that part is more than enough to condemn the camera for a particular use. If a project requires more than the specs provide, then it doesn't matter how much I play around with the camera. On the other hand, if the camera does meet the minimum required specs, it may still be disqualified in hands-on testing.

Most of the parameters you mentioned could be listed as specifications (smear, color, whip pans, low light, bright light), but since the manufacturers don't give out that information, we have to wait for testing. Others don't really have a specification (e.g. "feeling").


And discussing them too much before enough people actually USE the cameras is, IMO, kinda dumb.


I disagree.

we (the 3 of us) were particularly looking for the tell-tail smear that I see in a lot of the other cameras and we saw it in TWO shots that were using very fast camera movement..out of 4 films.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

they talked with 150+ ASC, SOC, etc, qualified DPs on this camera. These people are the best in this business and these cameras are directed right at them.....so I don't understand what the problem is......they were asked to produce a camera based on the input from these qualified professionals and Canon delivered.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

You do realize there are people outside of Hollywood that buy cameras. Probably only a very small percentage of the DSLRs sold were southern California purchases. I just don't see Canon selling many of these things outside of Hollywood. It's a big market for cameras there, but its not that big.

You do realize there are people outside of Hollywood that buy cameras. Probably only a very small percentage of the DSLRs sold were southern California purchases. I just don't see Canon selling many of these things outside of Hollywood. It's a big market for cameras there, but its not that big.

I suspect Jim does indeed realize cameras are sold outside of Hollywood. His livelihood depends on it.

I think the C300 will sell pretty well. Not 5D good, but I think it'll make Canon some money. It seems to be a really nice camera.

After watching a few of the vids done on the C300 it's obvious that they have a really good camera to compete in a certain niche. No complaints...it's Canons flagship.

The rub is those of us who have been begging for canon to bring us a step up alternative to the DSLRs are left wanting. And I'd imagine that market-wise it's 100-fold the size of the market they released the C300 for. Look at the amount of af100 and fs100's that have been sold. I'd bet those cameras stole DSLR users away from Canon.

On one hand, why wouldn't Canon continue to shove DSLRs down our throats. They can double dip in the video and photo marketplace. And anyone who's currently using a DSLR already has the support gear and workflow figured out.
On the other, imagine their dominance of the mid level production world if they offered a camera that could control their lenses, had the 50mbps codec, a large sensor and cost the same as the XF300/305 with the same division base/hdsdi-genlock models. And they wouldn't need to offer a lens as we all have the glass we need!
They would make a killing with the current masses of DSLR users!
Same points could be made for Red's ever increasing price point on the Scarlet.

I think both companies, while trying to offer top end tools have left a huge black hole in the production world that desperately needs to be filled. Right now it's Panny and Sonys game and that's where my money may go when I decide to pull the trigger.

You do realize there are people outside of Hollywood that buy cameras. Probably only a very small percentage of the DSLRs sold were southern California purchases. I just don't see Canon selling many of these things outside of Hollywood. It's a big market for cameras there, but its not that big.

Selling large numbers don't mean that a product is profitable. It's one of those turnover V profit issues that have caused companies to go under.

I don't think this particular camera was ever intended for people who have been using DSLRs and wishing to remain at that budget level. It's more a statement of intent that they have entered a particular market. At this price the C300 isn't limited to Hollywood, there's quite a broad international professional market that could potentially be interested in the camera. There are advantages to the camera, although what the final street price will be remains to seen, but it will be closer to F3 or ideally between the FS100 and the F3 (although I don't think it'll go below the F3 price), than DSLR .

Sony didn't release the FS100 at the same time as the F3, although it was strong hinted at and there was also a mock up.