Hi Bob,

When I bought this tripod and head it was fitted with the Miller “slip/pan” unit. This is essentially a second pan unit mounted on top of the first but with much less drag. It could be locked off so that all drag was provided by the main pan unit or unlocked for rapid pans. As it was not working I removed it which is how I know about its insides. This slip/pan stage had been fitted with a large rubber washer that looked as though it had swollen over the years to the the extent that rotation was impossible.

If rapid pans are important to you, have you thought of using a lower viscosity fluid? I use G.E.’s Viscasil 600,000 because it was available as a free sample as well as being a good choice. It seems to be similar to that used in the LP. There are many other grades available. As the happy relationship between drag and torque breaks down at high shear gradients you could also try providing more clearance between drum and cylinder to obtain more control at fast pan rates. The large head (with the EX3) I showed earlier has continuously variable drag control. The drag variation is achieved by the ability to vary the thickness of the fluid layer.

I think my new plan is to come up with a mounting system and get Alastair to build it, better than anything I could ever do.

Wait untill you try a whip pan with the Vinten head, Richard, you're in for a bit of a suprise.

I don't know how they do it, but no matter what drag level is set, it will whip like there's nothing holding it.

Scary, but true.

Another reason I wanted you to try the VB.

As for Alastair building whatever, I couldn't agree more, he's obviously a master at what he does, er, did, er, whatever.

Those photo's of the stuff he's produced are just totally gob smacking.

Any ETA on the gear?


CS

No ETA but I have been told I will be notified when it ships. I am also next in line so I expect soon. Basketball season has started so I will see what the set can do on pans. Football may or may not end later today in the third round of playoffs as teams from our area never tend to make it any further.

The drag resistance is something I have become used to. A half-hour out in the sun with the pan and tilt friction backed right off and exercising the fluid for a few mnutes once warmed up helps a lot.

It also forces me to choose a better position for things like take-offs. It is more pleasing image-wise to be closer to head-on than oblique to the movement, let the aircraft do the work and fly out of the shot overhead instead of trying to take in everything.

The Vintens are good. I have an old busted Vinten 22 on 150mm bowl on genione sticks, which I should get round to fixing one day. Unfortunately, the alloy will not TIG weld. It was tried by a gun aviation welder who joins just about every metal known to man.

Give him some toothpicks and some sheets of threeply and he will weld those too ( just kidding ). Also unfortunately, it is the same controls and fittings on Vintens which get wrecked. Fortunately, I can use the SHAN TM700 on the head for supporting a heavy camera better than the traditional Vinten plate could. The diecast knob carriers can be remade on a metal lathe with a bit of trouble.

The friction and counterbalance system is good. BTW, are those actually early model Mini-Cooper valve springs inside there?

Chris.


The tilt lock clamp knob is that half-thumbscrew head sticking out on the right. With the two pan/tilt handle mount points, you can have the tilt lock control on the right or like Vinten 22, on the left. The mechanism is the same, simple clamp on hard stainless disk except that with the Vinten 22 it is inside the casework. On the old Millers, it is external.

Hi Chris and Richard,

Thanks to all the excitement you have generated about the Vinten Blue I went along to the local agent only to find they did not stock them despite listing the full range on their web-site. I did get to play briefly with a hire Vinten and my EX3 with 300 mm lens fitted. They were not sure about the model (it was not a current model) but it was a size up from the Blue. It had the best movement I have seen in a counter balanced system - all the others have left me cold. However they will only get me one if I am sure I want to buy it.

For your information the bowl size of the Miller LP is 4”. A 3/8’’ Whit stud attaches the claw ball to the base of the head and extends downwards to the clamp knob. I could supply a picture of the knob and cup but I guess it very similar to other manufacturers who use the same system.

The Miller legs are bulky and hefty but they were manageable for previous generations and I would expect that Richard’s kids could help. I am still using mine and I am definitely not “trying out for the Olympic weight lifting team”.

I am guessing that the sporting events Richard is interested in are all played on level playing fields and that he he will be seeking a viewpoint with a slight height advantage. Therefore I am also guessing that there will not be a great deal of tilting involved but a lot of panning.

As far as “hanging on to the tripod handle like grim death for a full game” is concerned one could use the lack of a CB system to advantage. The camera platform modification shown permits 7” of EX3 travel. Being a left hander I prefer to position the tripod handle on the left side of the head and have it pointing forward. If I then then set the camera’s C. of G. behind the tilt axis it tries to tilt upwards. I can use this overbalance to support the weight of my hand and fore-arm.

I assume a whip pan is panning as fast as possible with the intention of redirecting the camera from one point of interest to somewhere else, such as when a ball is kicked from one side of the playing field to the other. They might be fun to do and require great skill but are not necessarily something that an audience would enjoy. With the proposed system whereby both cameras share the same pan platform both cameras will whip pan at the same time, admittedly the effect will not be so objectionable in the camera with the wider view. If these concerns have any merit it maybe worth going back to Richard’s initial scheme but replacing the velcro belt or timing belt with an adaptation of the rubber band trick. Perhaps by using a timing belt system that has a couple of extension springs built in. This would be set up so that the timing belt sections engage with the pan units on each head and the springs would join the ends of the belt sections. In this scenario a rapid pan of one head would result in an extension of one connecting spring causing the second head to rotate at a rate depending on drag setting and spring tension etc. That is the whip pan on the "slave" head would be less noticeable than in the "control" head. The idea would require the use of two heads capable of of withstanding some lateral load.

Hi Chris and Richard,

I went along to the local agent only to find they did not stock them

That seems to be the way it is with the VB's. Simply put, Vinten cannot build/ supply them as fast as they run out of dealers doors, so they have to order them in.


However they will only get me one if I am sure I want to buy it.


Full marks to them then, any system like that is a very hefty investment and an even more expensive mistake if you get it wrong.

If you. or anyone reading this, wish to test drive any model of Vinten or Sachtler, not just the VB, fire a mail to:

Vinten Peter.Harman@VitecGroup.com

Sachtler Barbara.Jaumann@VitecGroup.com

giving them as much detail of your kit and requirements as you can, and they WILL arrange it.

Both are passionate about their jobs, their respective equipment, customer service and are EXCELLENT ambassadors for their respective companies.

I just wish other support manufacturers were as accomodating.

(No, I don't get paid for this, BTW! But I do deal with both on a regular basis.)

I could supply a picture of the knob and cup but I guess it (is) very similar to other manufacturers who use the same system.


Well, I wouldn't be so sure. I know both Vinten and Libec's chunky 3 lobed clamp knobs and large cups have issues with some other makes/ models of tripod due to differences in the reciever design. I have learnt the hard way never to assume it will work as imagined.


I assume a whip pan is panning as fast as possible with the intention of redirecting the camera from one point of interest to somewhere else, such as when a ball is kicked from one side of the playing field to the other.


Er, not exactly, in fact one of the surest ways to guarantee the viewers throw up their lunch.

I won't go into too much detail here, but for fast action sports/ close quarter effects it is an absolutely mezmerising technique, though it can only be used if the object of ones attention is first coming more or less straight at you, then passes withing feet or yards of you (and the camera) before heading off in the other direction, all at very high speed.

In the right hands it truly is spellbinding, as the background is completely lost by keeping the target centred in the frame and as large as you can make it with the zoom lens to hand.

In the wrong/ untrained hands it is a dead cert upchuck inducer.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Something that may have been lost in the welter of posts in this thread, is that Richards support system will be multi tasked, and not soley used in the the twin camera mode.

As such we're either looking at your suggestion Alastair, with the Miller for twin cam operation OR a (something) that can be modified to perform both twin cam and single cam but giving full cb and all the bells and whistles one would expect of a modern fluid head/ tripod system.

I'll wait and see how Richard gets on with the VB and take it from there, there's plenty more fish in the sea in the event it isn't suitable, in whole or in part.

I must admit this thread does seem to have taken on a life of it's own, amazing.


CS

Alastair, you have too much faith in kids as tonight I carried 2 tripods, backpack with 3 cameras and accessories, my bastard dual head mount, and my stadium seat all by myself up to the top of the stands for the playoff game. I was lucky I could get it all in one trip.

As you discuss most of my use of the head is for panning. Football doesn't require many fast pans but basketball is a different story, same with volleyball. Whip pans are something I doubt I would ever do much but having a head that does very smooth pans would be a blessing. It is interesting that you were so impressed with the Vinten quality compared to others you have tried.

As I learn and think about what I do want it would be nice to have one system that I can use for everything. For most everything I film the Vinten Blue would be overkill and more than I need to carry anywhere but it might make up for it in the quality of the end product. I see no need to buy really high end equipment for filming school sports but it might make my life so much easier for the next 3 years that I have kids in high school and that is definitely worth something.

Once I have the legs and head set then my next purchase will be a better camera than the Sony's that I am currently using. I am very happy with the results but I want something that has a longer lens for the tight shots since I am filming from the top of the stands most all of the time. My current cameras are close to their maximum zoom right now on the bigger stadiums.

So far the discussions on this forum have been more than helpful in making me understand the basics of good equipment rather than going out and buying something that kinda works but doesn't really do what I need. I believe I am on the right track to make a few really good purchases rather than several bad ones and in the end that will save me money and a lot of headaches.

And even better once we figure out which sticks and head to buy I have several more issues to add for this same project. More screwy ideas to figure out.